View Full Version : What's Thurbo's relationship with WA?
I would not deny that it's a dominant game-type, but there is nothing wrong with any of the schemes in that list. I'm not a fan of rope-based schemes but I am more than happy to see the game is still attracting this much attention. Hosting your own games or arranging one via the in-game chat lobby is a sure way to find what you're looking for - with over 2000 players using WormNET throughout each day, you should not have any trouble.
2000 might sound like a lot, but the current situation really is that there are 50 to 60 people in #Anything Goes, 1/4 to half of those being bots or strange, unresponsive people with eyes instead of badges in front of their names. The game list is full of Shoppa, WxW, Roper, Warmer, RR, Tower, Fly Shopper etc., so I need to wait 30 minutes to even see an intermediate match. From time to time you might even stumble across Hysteria or Mole Shopper, but that's a rare sight!
I can't host myself. Always been like that. People call me a noob and tell me to open ports but my father forbids to do any changes to our router settings. HostingBuddy is awkward, but I have to admit it does work. Sitting for ages in my Intermediate lobby, first player to join after ten mintutes.
There was a point I thought W:A was the greatest game with the greatest community there was, but I'm of the opinion it's been depraved. The online community is useless, Worms is mostly a party game I play offline with friends anyway and like you I'm also barely interested in rope-based schemes. It's just overall very sad to me.
I think you've been unlucky and unintentionally warped your own view of the game and its community due to a lack of certain information. The W:A community is very much alive and kicking. Leagues, tournaments and competitions are regularly held and participated in by hundreds of active players. You would learn a lot about the community by visiting some of the links on this page: http://worms2d.info/Community
Regardless of whether you play this game casually, competitively or religiously, there are always games to be found, one way or another. Those "strange, unresponsive people with eyes instead of badges" are merely the W:A addicts who are connected to WormNET via a "snooper (http://worms2d.info/Software#WormNET_snoopers)"; if they are unresponsive, they are likely playing a game already.
The chat lobby is the most useful feature at your disposal. There are roughly 10 unique connects per minute and they are all looking to play worms. A simple, open invite in the chat lobby is more than enough to get them rolling in to your game.
If HostingBuddy is awkward for you to use, there are also proxy solutions available to ensure that you can get yourself into a comfortable position. WormNAT2 (http://worms2d.info/WormNAT2) allows you to host as if you had forwarded your own ports.
The main point I would like to express is that there is an unbelievable amount of work that has gone into making W:A what it is today. These efforts may not be clear at first glance, but I can assure you that what this community lacks in numbers or diversity, it makes up with passion. There are many people dedicated to keeping W:A and its community an enjoyable place for as long as possible. More and more people are appreciating that every day.
That was a lovely speech, Green :)
So basically you say, if I want to play the game properly, I'll have to compete to turnaments, leagues and/or join clans?
Just another thing why I have, as you said, formed a bad opinion about this game: it's too "pro-ish". You need to get informed and talk to important people to make up games, if you are just casually looking for an intermidiate game on-line, you've come to the wrong place.
And so, I can't play.
I do not play league games, I very rarely participate in tournaments and I have never been a member of a clan. I enjoy very few rope-based games, yet I still have a total of 11,432 replays (http://worms2d.info/Replay_file) saved since early 2006.
I was simply explaining how there is enough enthusiasm in the community to support these big projects, events and competitions, such as the ones you can find in the link I shared.
Extremist2
17 Sep 2011, 23:15
It's pretty easy for me to get Intermediate or Team17 matches going. I usually get 1 or 2 players within 5 minutes.
I usually get noobs or quitters, however. I almost NEVER see any famous WA personalities in AG (the hardcore forumites & such). If I do, they're using a snooper and don't chat.
This gives me the feeling that WormNET has an "in" crowd that only plays amongst its fellow members.
I was able to play a match against the omnipotent INNNxDario a few years ago, I must say. Sadly, he was a ***** that round (later apologized when I called him out on it).
CakeDoer
18 Sep 2011, 11:03
Thurbo, it seems to me like you never actually tried hosting a game... You do know you can do that, right? If you can't find an Intermediate hosted (which, admittedly, does happen often to me), you can just host one. When I do, I get at least one player instantly, and more usually join if I feel like waiting.
I was simply explaining how there is enough enthusiasm in the community to support these big projects, events and competitions, such as the ones you can find in the link I shared.
Okay, if that works for you, but I want to play, and nothing but to play. I haven't touched W:A for two months, but before that I had at least a match every week.
Playing a lot of rope races because I wasn't able to find "normal", I suddenly noticed a "Pro" match in the lobby list. It was the first pro match I ever played on-line since I bought W:A in 2002, and it was pretty enjoyable because the hosts were decent players, too. Then several weeks later I saw another pro lobby and thought this scheme had increased its popularity and I could look out for that more often, and when I joined the lobby, I noticed the hosts were the same as last time.
There is this handful of *decent* people actually caring for normal, pro etc, and then there is huge mountain of people playing Races and Shopper. This doesn't work for me, neither if I was going to play W:A casually nor once a day, so I've lost interest. Shame but true.
Thurbo, it seems to me like you never actually tried hosting a game... You do know you can do that, right? If you can't find an Intermediate hosted (which, admittedly, does happen often to me), you can just host one. When I do, I get at least one player instantly, and more usually join if I feel like waiting.
Sure, I did try hosting games, but no one ever joined my lobbies. So once a time (like 5 years after I bought the game, lol) I discovered on an english-only(!) website that I need to adjust my ports. Neither I knew how that works nor did my father allow me to do so.
HostingBuddy works as I explained before, but it's still very awkward and people don't care much about intermediate lobbies.
I suddenly noticed a "Pro" match in the lobby list. It was the first pro match I ever played on-line since I bought W:A in 2002, and it was pretty enjoyable because the hosts were decent players, too.
oinky and K4Tsis:D
Sure, I did try hosting games, but no one ever joined my lobbies. So once a time (like 5 years after I bought the game, lol) I discovered on an english-only(!) website that I need to adjust my ports. Neither I knew how that works nor did my father allow me to do so.
HostingBuddy works as I explained before, but it's still very awkward and people don't care much about intermediate lobbies.
Well, did you try WormNAT2 (http://worms2d.info/WormNAT2) as GreeN has suggested you? This method didn't fail for 98% of people yet.
Also, did you know about any extensions to WA? Like RubberWorm (http://worms2d.info/RubberWorm) and Project X (http://wormspx.com), they make the game fully customizable and add new physics/weapons (like the ones from Worms Reloaded), too long to tell:rolleyes: WA's state is now really better than the other 2D worms games right now, believe me :D
so I need to wait 30 minutes to even see an intermediate match. From time to time you might even stumble across Hysteria or Mole Shopper, but that's a rare sight!
:eek:
Regardless of whether you play this game casually, competitively or religiously
:o
oinky and K4Tsis:D
Yup, that's their names.
Well, did you try WormNAT2 (http://worms2d.info/WormNAT2) as GreeN has suggested you? This method didn't fail for 98% of people yet.
Might have to try then.
Also, did you know about any extensions to WA? Like RubberWorm (http://worms2d.info/RubberWorm) and Project X (http://wormspx.com), they make the game fully customizable and add new physics/weapons (like the ones from Worms Reloaded), too long to tell:rolleyes: WA's state is now really better than the other 2D worms games right now, believe me :D
ProjectX isn't working on my PC for some reason, _Kilburn has tried to pass me his tweaks on that with no success. :(
Apart from that, I'm no tweaker and I'm not really interested in changing the games I'm playing, I just want to play.
Throwing in my two cents, I don't think it should be important what people play online even if you are interested in different games. Granted, it's easy for me to say, liking and playing probably every scheme that people play - except Elite, somehow our relationship is sour -, but with WormNAT2, you can always host your own games. I never found it hard to get people even if it was something less known, like Holy War.
So basically you say, if I want to play the game properly, I'll have to compete to turnaments, leagues and/or join clans?
Absolutely not. All of these are optional. I never really got into league gaming, and rarely participate in tournaments, but I can still play without those. Personally I have more than 5200 replays since 2008 February, which averages to roughly 4 games a day, which is, I believe, quite proper.
Granted, it helps being part of a community, even if it's only a group of friends, but that can grow into something way bigger.
The problem is that I see you just want to fortify your ideas of WA being obsolete, it's community being bad, the possibilities in it being severely limited, and so on, instead of having an open mind and trying it out for yourself, patiently. I, too, suggest you get WormNAT2, and play, even with me if you want to try unusual schemes. :) You can usually find me in the #worms IRC channel on GameSurge.net.
I think you are right in some way, but be aware that my opinion is based on nine years of playing the game, seeing the change in the community and also this "in-crowd" developement Extremist2 described. To get this a bit more straight: People like Lex, KRD, Muzer or GreeN seem in-crowd members to me, I'm not. Dang!
The "In crowd" go to Gamesurge to organize games. (I believe it is like IRC?)
I rather think it's all their own huge group of friends, having tea time in the W:A servers using snooper. In fact, some people ARE sitting around there all day long, which made me think they were bots at first.
CyberShadow
19 Sep 2011, 17:02
This thread has been split off What's Team17's relationship with WA? (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=48398).
The "In crowd" go to Gamesurge to organize games. (I believe it is like IRC?)GameSurge is an IRC network on which the #worms channel exists. You can connect to GameSurge and join #worms with any IRC client like mIRC, XChat, mibbit, irssi, urk, etc.
Try going to http://02.chat.mibbit.com/ and choosing "GameSurge", typing a nick, and typing "#worms" in the channel box. You'll be among the "in crowd" then. :P
I think you are right in some way, but be aware that my opinion is based on nine years of playing the game, seeing the change in the community and also this "in-crowd" developement Extremist2 described. To get this a bit more straight: People like Lex, KRD, Muzer or GreeN seem in-crowd members to me, I'm not. Dang!
I'm in the in-crowd? If your definition of being in the in-crowd is that you sit around in IRC channels and rarely speak, ChanServ must also be in the in-crowd ;)
No, seriously, I just have a BNC connected to the WN server most of the time, and when I'm online I occasionally answer questions in #Help if I see them - I do play the occasional game, but I mostly mess about offline and with friends, and try to find bugs in wine compatibility.
I'm in the same situation as Muzer. I don't really play that often. I mainly just observe these days, waiting for interesting things to happen to WA.
I'm in the same situation as Muzer. I don't really play that often. I mainly just observe these days, waiting for interesting things to happen to WA.
Oo If you don't think Project-X and it's ability to add new weapons to the game is interesting enough, I must wonder what exaclty you are waiting for :eek:
Extremist2
19 Sep 2011, 21:43
The "In crowd" go to Gamesurge to organize games. (I believe it is like IRC?)
Why? You're intentionally separating yourselves from the masses that way.
Need a clearer channel of communication? Just use PartyTime or an inactive forum section or something.
Why? You're intentionally separating yourselves from the masses that way.
Need a clearer channel of communication? Just use PartyTime or an inactive forum section or something.
For one thing, for people who already use IRC but don't know the password to the Wormnet server, logging into Gamesurge is significantly easier than starting the game, or a snooper, to discuss playing. For another, it's better for general conversations as you have much better IRC capabilities and a more stable community (you don't have random people coming and going every five seconds). And obviously it's a lot more fun to play with people you actually know, people who can speak a common language, regardless of their skill level.
And in any case, there are still plenty of games organised through #AG. But if you want to play with those on the forum, you're more likely to find them through #worms on Gamesurge.
Extremist2
20 Sep 2011, 01:11
And obviously it's a lot more fun to play with people you actually know, people who can speak a common language, regardless of their skill level.
I find playing with new people to be plenty of fun.
No, they doesn't always speak my language, but I'm no elitist (used to be, but I'm a new person these days)...
And what's this about a WormNET password? It hasn't used secure sign-in in a dog's life. :confused:
Why? You're intentionally separating yourselves from the masses that way.
Need a clearer channel of communication? Just use PartyTime or an inactive forum section or something.
I've never actually been to Gamesurge but I've seen it mentioned quite a bit from skillful players here.
I just play with known friends organized on MSN Messenger.
Extremist2
20 Sep 2011, 08:12
Well, I guess I'm just too darn old fashioned, booting up the game, and waiting around in Anything Goes... :p
I must wonder what exaclty you are waiting for :eek:
A wormhole that goes straight back to 1999/2000, before the ranking was taken down.
(Wormhole, hehehe. :))
Don't you mean a wormhole to before Team17 starved a nation of Beer?
I find playing with new people to be plenty of fun.
No, they doesn't always speak my language, but I'm no elitist (used to be, but I'm a new person these days)...
And what's this about a WormNET password? It hasn't used secure sign-in in a dog's life. :confused:
The password to connect to the WormNET server with a normal IRC client. It's not hard to find if you really want to, but it isn't made openly public to make it that little bit harder for abuse.
(Wormhole, hehehe. :))
Good idea for a new PX weapon, some1 start coding it :)
All this talk of in crowds and separation is extremely silly (and I can only assume malicious on Thurbo's part) with regard to #worms, which is an open IRC channel that goes out of its way (http://worms2d.info/Worms_on_GameSurge) to make it easy (http://worms2d.info/Internet_Relay_Chat#Setting_up_an_IRC_client) for people to come take a look at it.
There are several good reasons why it isn't (and never has been) situated on WormNet itself, not least of all because that would make it impossible to find for people who don't have the game installed yet/anymore. Another being that organising games of WA isn't nearly the primary use of it; more often it is used to discuss the game's community projects like the wiki, to offer support, for playing other games together, sharing interesting findings and generally keeping in touch. A lot of that would be a bit inappropriate in any of the WormNet channels and a lot more tedious when done through WA's fullscreen frontend.
Extremist2
20 Sep 2011, 22:33
There are several good reasons why it isn't (and never has been) situated on WormNet itself, not least of all because that would make it impossible to find for people who don't have the game installed yet/anymore. Another being that organising games of WA isn't nearly the primary use of it; more often it is used to discuss the game's community projects like the wiki, to offer support, for playing other games together, sharing interesting findings and generally keeping in touch. A lot of that would be a bit inappropriate in any of the WormNet channels and a lot more tedious when done through WA's fullscreen frontend.
I have nothing against using an outside form of communication for stuff not related to playing the game (would the discussions that happen on this forum be possible on WormNET? Of course not).
The problem is that by organizing games strictly on IRC, you ARE separating yourselves from a unique pool of players (those who don't use IRC, and have no interest in finding it). If I were to move in your direction, I'd likely get more games, but I would feel bad for abandoning them.
I'll just come out and say it - you're being selfish.
I'll just come out and say it - you're being selfish.
Friends tend to play together, whether they arrange games through WormNET private messages, MSN or IRC. The only difference is that gathering a group of friends via external chat protocols can be quicker and involve less hassle. From experience, I can tell you that most games arranged in #worms are still hosted via WormNET (meaning that the host shows up on the games list, like everyone elses) and people are generally very tolerant of unknown players that join the game.
Whoa there. I don't think any of us organise our games strictly in #worms, where'd you get that from? When I'm not taking a break from the game, I host just as many public as private matches, I'd say. And even when I'm inactive, I like to think I'm able to keep an eye on what goes on in community leagues, forums and on WormNet.
From experience, I can tell you that most games arranged in #worms are still hosted via WormNET (meaning that the host shows up on the games list, like everyone elses) and people are generally very tolerant of unknown players that join the game.
Also that.
Extremist2
21 Sep 2011, 04:04
All I know is that none of the regulars I see in Anything Goes post here, and most of them are of an average skill level.
I call it as I see it, and I see a divide.
All I know is that none of the regulars I see in Anything Goes post here, and most of them are of an average skill level.
I call it as I see it, and I see a divide.
No - the obvious reason is that there are a lot more people playing WA than there are people on this forum, so statistically speaking, you're much more likely to run into someone not on the forum.
(Also many people on the forum play rarely nowadays anyway)
So concluding... the "in-crowd" (say: actually skilled players, W:A fanatics etc.) isn't playing much anymore, servers (say: server - or can anyone tell me what these empty places called "Party Time" and "Roper's Heaven" exist for) are mostly full of average to bad players who, in addition, prefer to play shoppa instead of Worms.
That's about as I see it, too :p
You both seem to assume an awful lot. You are essentially arguing something you do not know enough about.
There are currently less than 30 users in #worms - this number increases very infrequently. I can tell you right now that I know and/or have played with 90% of the people in there; aside from 3 or 4 names, they are all very much "average" skilled players (including myself).
I must insist that you both come in to #worms and see how ridiculous your elitist accusations sound to us, before continuing this debate.
So concluding... the "in-crowd" (say: actually skilled players, W:A fanatics etc.) isn't playing much anymore, servers (say: server - or can anyone tell me what these empty places called "Party Time" and "Roper's Heaven" exist for) are mostly full of average to bad players who, in addition, prefer to play shoppa instead of Worms.
That's about as I see it, too :p
For as we all know, any match played primarily with a rope is an insult to us real gamers and don't deserve to call their game "Worms".
The 2 empty channels are usually used for various tournaments to fully focus on its course.
full of average to bad players who, in addition, prefer to play shoppa instead of Worms.
Wrong. Its full of any level players, mostly casually playing people who just join the games just after they enter wormnet. People who are connected "all the time" are usually using snoopers for better communication between each other.
And i dont know whats your definition about this game, but shoppa is Worms. Its true that mayority of new players find it fun, but its your fault that you cant arrange game of your choice.
Aside from the two people that play "pro" frequently I hadn't met anyone real good. They seem to be well known for being the only players playing pro, aye?
There's nothing for me to "know". I mean, I got this game way back in 2002 or 2001 and primarily *played* it, but I haven't gone and informed me much on external websites. I can only talk about experience with the game itself.
Wait, so you seek for "good players" all the time?
Ill never believe that actually noone joins your game if you wait a little bit.
Wait, so you seek for "good players" all the time?
Ill never believe that actually noone joins your game if you wait a little bit.
Primarily I'm waiting for players that want to play normal at all, it's not like there is no one, but still very few people.
As described before I can't host, however I haven't tried this WormNAT thing yet.
So before you slander WA again please get some real experience with how things actually work there. In meantime you have plenty of time to try at least WormNAT.
9 years of owning the game and I didn't get any real "experience" because I need to join in-crowd sites and download loads of external programs to get the game even to work, well this is good news.
And here comes warmest thanks for Deadcode, Cybershadow and the rest of the community for providing us with external tools which allow us to play this 12 years old game.
By the way, 9 years ago you were 7 if im not wrong.
And here comes warmest thanks for Deadcode, Cybershadow and the rest of the community for providing us with external tools which allow us to play this 12 years old game.
Sure, thing is I didn't know about any of those tools only three or four years ago (W:A itself doesn't give any infos about anything. Infos you find in the internet are only in English, unfortunately).
I wasn't playing the game online much back then anyway (Worms has always been an offline party game to me and my friends), but you probably can imagine how lost I felt whenever going online. Took me years to find out what "shoppa" even was, too, as I got kicked out of almost every lobby I joined. If I remember correctly, I finally joined a friendly German host who took the time and explained the rules to me.
Heh, I also still remember my first rope race, I teleported my worm right into the middle of the map - my fellow players started to call me a noob right away, as usually :D
By the way, 9 years ago you were 7 if im not wrong.
Right, I got Worms 2 with the age of 7, I'm not sure if I got W:A in the same year or when I was 8, not a big difference anyway :p
*EDIT* Err... what? WormNAT is included to RubberWorm? I already got that program, so how do I start WormNAT now??
In addition, it says WormNAT players can only play with other WormNAT users... am I ever going to find any game with that restriction? Most people that can host don't use WormNAT from what I know :S
I don't know where you got that information from, but it is all incorrect. That information may have been referring to an old version.
Make sure to download WormKit here: http://worms.thecybershadow.net/wormkit/
WormNAT2 is included in that package. You will find instructions in the "/WormKitModules/WormNAT2" folder.
Extremist2
21 Sep 2011, 21:28
No - the obvious reason is that there are a lot more people playing WA than there are people on this forum, so statistically speaking, you're much more likely to run into someone not on the forum.
I said the AG regulars. Most of the players I encounter are either new, or don't play often. I'm comparing the forum/IRC in-crowd to the WormNET AG in-crowd. Based on the way that crowd plays (about the same as me, which isn't too terribly bad but not even close to pro), and the way you guys speak (extremely knowledgeable), there is a clear skill gap that simply shouldn't exist.
Share the wealth.
(Also many people on the forum play rarely nowadays anyway)
Then why the heck do you post in here so much? The off-topic section, that'd be fine (that's what I did on my Halo forum after I stopped playing Halo), but you guys are ALWAYS chiming in about complex suggestions and minute details. IMO, if you're not playing (or not developing, in the case of DC, CS, and the third-party people) you don't deserve to have input.
There was this game I hated. I always let my opinions about it be known on its official forum. But I kept playing it while I verbally pounded it to give myself some credibility.
Sure, thing is I didn't know about any of those tools only three or four years ago (W:A itself doesn't give any infos about anything. Infos you find in the internet are only in English, unfortunately).
This is key. You guys really want us to stop the accusations? Then figure out some way to either have us (the average WA player) come to you or you (the hardcore crowd) come to us EN MASSE.
P.S. Skill wise, I'm somewhere between the average crowd and the hardcore crowd, but my playing habits are closer to the former.
*EDIT* Err... what? WormNAT is included to RubberWorm? I already got that program, so how do I start WormNAT now??
In addition, it says WormNAT players can only play with other WormNAT users... am I ever going to find any game with that restriction? Most people that can host don't use WormNAT from what I know :S
"WormNAT" or "WormNAT2" cannot be included in RubberWorm, nor in my installer for it. Also, "WormNAT" refers to an old version, that 's not what you need. You need WormNAT2, and everyone will be able to join your hosts. Go to the said above link. :)
I said the AG regulars. Most of the players I encounter are either new, or don't play often. I'm comparing the forum/IRC in-crowd to the WormNET AG in-crowd. Based on the way that crowd plays (about the same as me, which isn't too terribly bad but not even close to pro), and the way you guys speak (extremely knowledgeable), there is a clear skill gap that simply shouldn't exist.
Share the wealth.
Then why the heck do you post in here so much? The off-topic section, that'd be fine (that's what I did on my Halo forum after I stopped playing Halo), but you guys are ALWAYS chiming in about complex suggestions and minute details. IMO, if you're not playing (or not developing, in the case of DC, CS, and the third-party people) you don't deserve to have input.
There was this game I hated. I always let my opinions about it be known on its official forum. But I kept playing it while I verbally pounded it to give myself some credibility.
This is key. You guys really want us to stop the accusations? Then figure out some way to either have us (the average WA player) come to you or you (the hardcore crowd) come to us EN MASSE.
P.S. Skill wise, I'm somewhere between the average crowd and the hardcore crowd, but my playing habits are closer to the former.
Knowing a lot about how a game works and being a pro at the game are two different things. As GreeN said, most of us are players of average skill level who are just a lot more knowledgable than most random people on #AG - mostly as a direct result of being on this forum.
Based on the way that crowd plays (about the same as me, which isn't too terribly bad but not even close to pro), and the way you guys speak (extremely knowledgeable), there is a clear skill gap that simply shouldn't exist.
Then why the heck do you post in here so much? The off-topic section, that'd be fine (that's what I did on my Halo forum after I stopped playing Halo), but you guys are ALWAYS chiming in about complex suggestions and minute details. IMO, if you're not playing (or not developing, in the case of DC, CS, and the third-party people) you don't deserve to have input.
You guys really want us to stop the accusations? Then figure out some way to either have us (the average WA player) come to you or you (the hardcore crowd) come to us EN MASSE.
You need to remove this idea from your head that the forum regulars and IRC users have created some kind of pretentious gang culture. Most of the people who have posted in this thread to defend the accusations that have been made against W:A and/or its community are very knowledgable and long time players of the game. The skill level of said players ranges drastically from both ends of the spectrum; there is a negligible connection between the two traits.
These forums have served as a pivot point for numerous changes, fixes and features that have been implemented into the game via Deadcode and CyberShadows beta updates. The forum is not horrendously over-populated, so large amounts of our opinions and experiences (including yours, to some degree) get noted by the developers and help push the evolution of the game. Regardless of how actively anyone here plays the game, it is always perfectly clear when someone knows what they are talking about.
Join us in IRC (http://worms2d.info/Worms_on_GameSurge), if you like. You'll be unlikely to get any games out of us, but you can be sure that you'll have plenty of people to shout at.
Share the wealth.
What you consider WA's intelligent upper class does that more than I see intelligent upper classes do on other online games, to be honest.
Over the years, dozens of successful websites, leagues, other competitions, scheme-based communities, clans, tutorials, map repositories and a bunch of other projects have been started and maintained by the more dedicated players of the game. On top of that, the game's very development has become more and more open, holding very little information back and outright asking people for help and suggestions. There are even those of us who make it a point to preserve the game's and the community's history and legends and then publish bloody essays about it (http://worms2d.info/User:KoreanRedDragon/Is_WA_in_Its_Prime). In that particular example, you'll notice I actually agree that the current skill level on WormNet isn't at as high a level as it could be considering how long the game's been out, but that's why I wrote all that and linked the good people of the current community league to it. It's my way of contributing and I know a bunch of others who have been contributing in their own (often far more productive) ways, some for a decade now.
Sure it's worrying that there are still people out there who fail to even notice the efforts, but if they can't be bothered to go into the conveniently named #Help channel on WormNet, read the official wiki, visit the websites listed there and contact people via any of the methods provided, it's a bit of a stretch to lay the blame on us. What else can we do, telepathically beam our enlightened thoughts worldwide in 25 languages? If you have any suggestions, we'll be happy to hear them. But seriously, just look at the /Community (http://worms2d.info/Community) page GreeN linked to up there somewhere. That enormous effort surely has to trickle down even to the players who refuse to look at anything other than this one forum and #AG chatter.
CyberShadow
21 Sep 2011, 23:57
Sure, thing is I didn't know about any of those tools only three or four years ago (W:A itself doesn't give any infos about anything. Infos you find in the internet are only in English, unfortunately).
I wasn't playing the game online much back then anyway (Worms has always been an offline party game to me and my friends), but you probably can imagine how lost I felt whenever going online. Took me years to find out what "shoppa" even was, too, as I got kicked out of almost every lobby I joined.
I like to think that there have been dramatic improvements in this area in the last few years. We've created the #Help channel and the Help bot, which can answer pretty much any frequently-asked question (this includes "I can't host" and "What is shoppa"). While it only speaks English, it will send you a localized message (http://proxy.worms2d.info/data/localizedwelcome/) based on your country flag when you join the channel, with a link to your language's primary W:A community (unfortunately no one from a German community has approached me yet). The Worms Knowledge Base was created as a place for information about anything related to W:A (and some other games), and being a wiki allow anyone to add to it and not let information become stale. Despite starting out as an English-only project, people have adapted translations of its articles for their community websites, and now there's an ongoing community effort to translate WKB itself.
Tighter integration with the game itself would obviously be desirable, however currently there are technical and ideological barriers that make this difficult. We hope to thin out or overcome them in the planned major update (4.0).
I've been reading all these posts, and I had to put a bucket under the display, because some of them are so full of crap.
As for in-crowd people, does that mean I'm in-crowd too? Idling and chatting in #worms for two and a half years now, yet "only" playing the game for a measly almost four years, I definitely don't count myself an oldie - nor does anyone else for that matter, nor a pro based on my skills between extremely silly and kinda cool, that averages as average. But just based on your description, I should count too. However, this entire idea of "in-crowd" people is a joke. I have never seen more open-minded people on WormNet then in #worms. I remember the first time I played with KRD, not having an idea who he was - I wasn't in the community in any way back then -, he invited me to #worms during one of the games. When I joined it was full of awesome people, most of whom I feel I can refer to as friends, even though I only met with a handful of them in real life. This couldn't happen in an in-crowd channel.
As for organizing games in the channel, so what. Everyone organizes games within their circle of friends, clanmates and acquaintances, that's nothing unusual.
No, they doesn't always speak my language, but I'm no elitist (used to be, but I'm a new person these days)...
Nice reframing there. Seriously.
Aside from the two people that play "pro" frequently I hadn't met anyone real good. They seem to be well known for being the only players playing pro, aye?
Pro is one of the lesser played ground-based schemes these days. If you are looking for non-rope based scheme, I suggest you try Intermediate/Normal, Elite, Hysteria and/or Team17. All of which are pretty popular with both casual and competitive players of all skill levels.
The reason Shopper and its descendants are so abundant is because they are easy to play even if you're not a skilled player, it is also easy to find people with the same level of skills as you are, their rules are easy to learn and abide by (you have no idea how many times I (unintentionally) broke the no-sitter rule in BnG back in the days), and the games tend to be fast. As for the ground based schemes, you'll have to take the possibility into count that your game might last a while. 40-50 minute long Hysterias (which, in case you don't know, is a scheme where you have 10 seconds before your turn to think and 1 second to execute anything you can) are quite common among experienced players, not to say how long Team17s can last. I personally have played ones that lasted until the very last turn of the water's rise even though I'm of mediocre skills in this scheme. On the other hand, a Shopper game is, unless played in certain circumstances, pretty much over by the 30th minute. I occasionally host Shoppers when I have half an hour free time, because if I hosted anything else, I'd always be late from everything.
9 years of owning the game and I didn't get any real "experience" because I need to join in-crowd sites and download loads of external programs to get the game even to work, well this is good news.
If you didn't get any real experience during your alleged 9 years of playing, you are doing something wrong. Something very very wrong. And that's not the fault of the game, nor the community, only yours.
That previous statement of yours and...
Took me years to find out what "shoppa" even was, too, as I got kicked out of almost every lobby I joined.
...pretty much reinforces my view of you as being extremely slow - and I mean EXTREMELY, considering how you couldn't get such trivial information in such a crowded game as WA, while it took me only a few tries to get to know Shopper back in WWP, where you would usually find yourself being alone with ChanServ in any of the rooms. No offense.
Then why the heck do you post in here so much? The off-topic section, that'd be fine (that's what I did on my Halo forum after I stopped playing Halo), but you guys are ALWAYS chiming in about complex suggestions and minute details. IMO, if you're not playing (or not developing, in the case of DC, CS, and the third-party people) you don't deserve to have input.
Some of the people here, who, based on your opinion, doesn't deserve to have input have contributed to WA more in single days than you did since you started playing Worms.
You guys have no idea what you are talking about, you keep blurting out your own opinions as if they were facts, keep assuming for the worst, and degrade the efforts of countless community-building movements. Open up for a while.
Extremist2
22 Sep 2011, 01:38
Over the years, dozens of successful websites, leagues, other competitions, scheme-based communities, clans, tutorials, map repositories and a bunch of other projects have been started and maintained by the more dedicated players of the game. On top of that, the game's very development has become more and more open, holding very little information back and outright asking people for help and suggestions. There are even those of us who make it a point to preserve the game's and the community's history and legends and then publish bloody essays about it (http://worms2d.info/User:KoreanRedDragon/Is_WA_in_Its_Prime).
How does any of this help improve the diversity & skill level of the playerbase?
In that particular example, you'll notice I actually agree that the current skill level on WormNet isn't at as high a level as it could be considering how long the game's been out, but that's why I wrote all that and linked the good people of the current community league to it.
More insider activity.
Want to REALLY help? Round up the dedicated community members & put all your efforts into creating a one-stop-shop multi-lingual website with front-page links to standardized schemes, rules, pro clans, community member profiles, Java chat, this forum, map databases, etc., then advertise it with an automated message every time somebody logs in to AG.
Sure it's worrying that there are still people out there who fail to even notice the efforts, but if they can't be bothered to go into the conveniently named #Help channel on WormNet
Not everyone knows how to get the most out of it - needs better instructions.
read the official wiki
The average WormNETer doesn't know it exists. Same with this forum, and even more so with the IRC.
and contact people via any of the methods provided
Provided where? The IRC, wiki, and forum that get almost no promotion? :rolleyes:
That enormous effort surely has to trickle down even to the players who refuse to look at anything other than this one forum and #AG chatter.
Those people exist. Help them.
I'm sure y'all are well meaning, but your skills and knowledge are just plain ol' stuck in a hole where nobody looks. Put 'em on a billboard.
Tighter integration with the game itself would obviously be desirable, however currently there are technical and ideological barriers that make this difficult. We hope to thin out or overcome them in the planned major update (4.0).
Is a years-in-the-making update really needed to simply advertise websites on AG?
I have never seen more open-minded people on WormNet then in #worms. I remember the first time I played with KRD, not having an idea who he was - I wasn't in the community in any way back then -, he invited me to #worms during one of the games. When I joined it was full of awesome people, most of whom I feel I can refer to as friends, even though I only met with a handful of them in real life. This couldn't happen in an in-crowd channel.
I never said it wasn't a friendly in-crowd, but it doesn't change the fact that it IS an in-crowd.
As for organizing games in the channel, so what. Everyone organizes games within their circle of friends, clanmates and acquaintances, that's nothing unusual.
No problem at all with doing that.
Doing ONLY it, however... -_-
The reason Shopper and its descendants are so abundant is because they are easy to play even if you're not a skilled player, it is also easy to find people with the same level of skills as you are, their rules are easy to learn and abide by (...) and the games tend to be fast.
Rope-based games are mindless. I've tried playing normal matches with fairly skilled ropers, and they (figuratively) don't which end of a longbow to point at the enemy... :(
This is an educated guess - the real reason why rope games are so prevalent is because the old-school players with great personalities either stopped playing or started only playing with friends. This created a void in AG that got filled for the most part by low-IQ Brazilian pirates and clan members with bad attitudes who only play RR, WXW, and "shoppa".
Also, shoppers are not inherently faster. I've actually found that almost all gametypes (mole shopper, the absolute slowest scheme, being one exception - also BnG, the most variable) go at the same speed, with the number of players/number of worms determining the time it takes to finish.
EDIT - I've been playing the PC version of WA since 2005, and in that entire time I've only managed to play against 5-10 ultra-pro ropers (mostly from Brazil), and 5-10 ultra-pro normal players (mostly from the NNN clan). A game that's been out since 1999 and has never stopped having an active community shouldn't have this problem.
How does any of this help improve the diversity & skill level of the playerbase?
How doesn't it? Your educated guesses seem more like random stabs in the dark, really. I think I'll let others try and find a way to explain this to you for now. :confused:
There's no way it could take anyone "years" to "find out what 'shoppa' even was". Thurbo's just trolling. Don't feed.
Extremist2, play the game as much as we have and you'd be extremely knowledgable too. I played with extreme dedication and resolve for at least 7 years straight (starting in 1999). I don't play much any more because I got burned out, but that doesn't mean my knowledge and experience have disappeared after these years of not playing much. The game mechanics haven't changed, so why shouldn't my input matter? This is in response to your earlier post, by the way. I wrote this before I saw your latest post.
CyberShadow
22 Sep 2011, 01:50
Want to REALLY help? Round up the dedicated community members & put all your efforts into creating a one-stop-shop multi-lingual website with front-page links to standardized schemes, rules, pro clans, community member profiles, Java chat, this forum, map databases, etc., then advertise it with an automated message every time somebody logs in to AG.You're right, this is something I've wanted to do for a while (see my unfinished attempt here (http://worms2d.info/Welcome)). It's difficult to strike the right balance between an informative page and one overloaded with information.Not everyone knows how to get the most out of it - needs better instructions.If anything needs improving in this regard, it would only be making the #Help channel more noticeable. I can't think of anything to improve once the user joined the channel: The Help bot sends an automatic message to everyone who joins (while using the game), inviting them to ask questions to the Help bot directly. Since some people mistake on-join messages for irrelevant automatic spam, I've even made the Help bot send a second invitation when the user asks something without asking the Help bot first.Is a years-in-the-making update really needed to simply advertise websites on AG?I was thinking more along the lines of a help system tied directly with the game's interface (e.g. a prominent "Help" button present on relevant parts of the interface).
Extremist2
22 Sep 2011, 01:55
@KRD - That article you wrote is very good so far (still reading it), but there's a saying that I've been using more & more these days - talk is cheap. "Keyboard Kommandos" (people who make suggestions & spout opinions but don't ever get anything done) are spreading like a disease across the internet. I personally don't have the technical knowledge to help solve WA's problems, but I am speaking to those who do this very moment, and am doing the one that I CAN do - calling them out.
@Lex - You did it the hard way, and not everyone has the wherewithal to do that. I'm recommending that those who have the knowledge now help the weak to become just like them.
@Cybershadow - A better explanation of how to ask the help bot (syntax) and what can be asked of it (it's range of knowledge) is what I meant.
[Help] Hi Lex, and welcome to the Help and Support channel.
[Help] I'm the WormNET Help Bot. You can ask me about many topics, and I'll try to answer to the best of my programming. Double-click my name (Help) in the list on the right, then type your question.
[Help] You can also find answers to many questions on the Worms Knowledge Base Frequently Asked Questions list: http://worms2d.info/FAQ
The above is what's seen upon entering the Help channel. I don't understand your point of view, Extremist2. It's pretty straight-forward.
Extremist2
22 Sep 2011, 01:58
[Help] Hi Lex, and welcome to the Help and Support channel.
[Help] I'm the WormNET Help Bot. You can ask me about many topics, and I'll try to answer to the best of my programming. Double-click my name (Help) in the list on the right, then type your question.
[Help] You can also find answers to many questions on the Worms Knowledge Base Frequently Asked Questions list: http://worms2d.info/FAQ
The above is what's seen upon entering the Help channel. I don't understand your point of view, Extremist2. It's pretty straight-forward.
@Cybershadow - A better explanation of how to ask the help bot (syntax) and what can be asked of it (it's range of knowledge) is what I meant.
tencharrrr
CyberShadow
22 Sep 2011, 01:59
@Cybershadow - A better explanation of how to ask the help bot (syntax) and what can be asked of it (it's range of knowledge) is what I meant.The Help bot's purpose is to answer any commonly-asked questions. I don't monitor its logs anymore, but for at least a year since it was launched I used to check the logs regularly and add unanswered questions (and formulations thereof) to its database, if said questions were asked multiple times or they were relevant to W:A.
I'm open to specific suggestions on how to improve its explanatory messages.
Extremist2
22 Sep 2011, 02:02
The Help bot's purpose is to answer any commonly-asked questions. I don't monitor its logs anymore, but for at least a year since it was launched I used to check the logs regularly and add unanswered questions (and formulations thereof) to its database, if said questions were asked multiple times or they were relevant to W:A.
Good to hear.
I'm open to specific suggestions on how to improve its explanatory messages.
Like I said, give multiple examples of the correct question syntax, and a quick summary of its knowledge base.
The correct question syntax is explained. Double-click on Help to ask a question. Its knowledge base can be easily explored from there. What more is there to add?
CyberShadow
22 Sep 2011, 02:10
Like I said, give multiple examples of the correct question syntax,Unless you mean the IRC "/msg Help" bit (which we sidestep), there is no "syntax" per se - it's designed to understand both natural English and simple keywords, so there's not much to explain.
and a quick summary of its knowledge base.I can neither think of any specific formulation considering the great diversity of its recognized queries, nor can I see how this would be helpful.
I'm open to specific suggestions, but it's hard for me to make anything out of vague, unargumented advice.
Extremist2
22 Sep 2011, 02:33
I'm not well versed on how exactly it works or exactly what it knows, but I was thinking of something along these lines:
"Welcome to the Help Channel! This is a database of knowledge regarding the features, schemes, and people of Worms Armageddon & WormNET. To ask a question, type "/msg Help" in the chat bar below, then your question (e.g. what is HostingBuddy, how do you play shoppa, who or what is Deadcode).
For further information, including links to clans, beta updates, essays, and complete scheme descriptions, please visit worms2d.info."
CyberShadow
22 Sep 2011, 02:49
I'm not well versed on how exactly it works or exactly what it knows, but I was thinking of something along these lines:The point I was trying to make is that, at least for the sake of this discussion, it should be assumed that the Help bot can give an appropriate answer for almost any question that a #Help visitor would have. Its database has been improved in response to real usage attempts. Even when it doesn't know the exact answer, it will often point the user in the right direction for more information.
As I understand you haven't experimented with the bot much, I welcome you to try it out. If you can't / don't want to start the game just for this, you can use a snooper, or address it using WebSnoop (http://snoop.worms2d.info/#Help)."Welcome to the Help Channel! This is a database of knowledge regarding the features, schemes, and people of Worms Armageddon & WormNET. To ask a question, type "/msg Help" in the chat bar below, then your question (e.g. what is HostingBuddy, how do you play shoppa, who or what is Deadcode).I think that asking the user to double-click the nickname in the nick list is more friendly than asking them to type an IRC command.For further information, including links to clans, beta updates, essays, and complete scheme descriptions, please visit worms2d.info."Except for "essays" (I'm not sure why anyone would want to go looking for such a thing in #Help), the Help bot has answers for all of these topics. (It doesn't know a list of clans, but it does know about clans in general.)
@KRD - That article you wrote is very good so far (still reading it), but there's a saying that I've been using more & more these days - talk is cheap. "Keyboard Kommandos" (people who make suggestions & spout opinions but don't ever get anything done) are spreading like a disease across the internet. I personally don't have the technical knowledge to help solve WA's problems, but I am speaking to those who do this very moment, and am doing the one that I CAN do - calling them out.
I hope it at least shows you that the problems pointed out in this thread are something that some of us are profoundly aware of and have been for a time now. We monitor the situation. They're definitely not easy problems to address (which is why calling anyone out on it feels waaay overboard to me), but as you can see, CyberShadow is himself at the forefront of the movement toward making WA ever-friendlier. And funnily enough, many of the people who at one point wanted to see if they could help him and Deadcode out ended up as regulars of the #worms IRC channel; it has become a reasonably valuable resource in that regard, which again speaks in favour of keeping it there.
Still, I can't shake the feeling that WA has come an incredibly long way in being user-friendly already. And I don't just mean technically. WormNet for example used to be a far more cruel place for players looking to climb up the skill and social ladders. With the wide availability of knowledge, replays and movies, the former has definitely become quicker and the latter easier because the top personalities (celebrities, even) have either quit or mellowed down considerably. I actually have trouble imagining how these positive changes managed to sneak past Thurbo and you, but, well, you're here now. It'll only get better, as long as you realise that yes, even without technical knowledge of the minute details that make up the game, you can learn pretty quickly and begin to contribute. It takes less patience than on many other games that I've played, just a reasonably inquiring mind and a bit of initiative.
"Welcome to the Help Channel! This is a database of knowledge regarding the features, schemes, and people of Worms Armageddon & WormNET. To ask a question, type "/msg Help" in the chat bar below, then your question (e.g. /msg Help what is HostingBuddy, how do you play shoppa, who or what is Deadcode).
For further information, including links to clans, beta updates, essays, and complete scheme descriptions, please visit worms2d.info."
Gotta make the example more idiot proof like the bit I added in bold. Also my suggestion? Rename the channel to "#Help & Technical Support".
You can't have spaces in IRC channel names, and probably not ampersands either.
And that, franpa, is why CS avoided using IRC commands in the first place and just told the user to double-click the bot's name :p
#Help_and_Technical_Support
Yeah that uh, doesn't look too hot unless you could maybe make the underscores same colour as the background to hide them >.>
The reason Shopper and its descendants are so abundant is because they are easy to play even if you're not a skilled player, it is also easy to find people with the same level of skills as you are, their rules are easy to learn and abide by (you have no idea how many times I (unintentionally) broke the no-sitter rule in BnG back in the days), and the games tend to be fast. As for the ground based schemes, you'll have to take the possibility into count that your game might last a while. 40-50 minute long Hysterias (which, in case you don't know, is a scheme where you have 10 seconds before your turn to think and 1 second to execute anything you can) are quite common among experienced players, not to say how long Team17s can last. I personally have played ones that lasted until the very last turn of the water's rise even though I'm of mediocre skills in this scheme. On the other hand, a Shopper game is, unless played in certain circumstances, pretty much over by the 30th minute. I occasionally host Shoppers when I have half an hour free time, because if I hosted anything else, I'd always be late from everything.
Yeah, this is the original Worms gameplay and matches are supposed to last some while. If most people prefer the game style that requires you to become very skilled with the Ninja Rope to the original gameplay, I don't really care - although that's dumbing down gameplay, similar to what I notice is still happening to Starcraft II or also Team Fortress 2 - but if this scheme is preferred by more than 3/4 of the community it can get very annoying. I'd go mad if half of the Starcraft game list were "Marine Arena" or half of the Team Fortress 2 servers were Saxton Hale mod.
If you didn't get any real experience during your alleged 9 years of playing, you are doing something wrong. Something very very wrong. And that's not the fault of the game, nor the community, only yours.
That previous statement of yours and...
I'm not sure if I got "real" experience. I played the game. A lot. I never went to any community sites, I just played the game, and that's it. But as GreeN stated before, that's not the true "W:A" experience when you are just "playing" the game, you need to integrate yourself to the community.
...pretty much reinforces my view of you as being extremely slow - and I mean EXTREMELY, considering how you couldn't get such trivial information in such a crowded game as WA, while it took me only a few tries to get to know Shopper back in WWP, where you would usually find yourself being alone with ChanServ in any of the rooms. No offense.
How old are you? I'm 17 and 4 years ago when I was 13, I couldn't really speak English.
W:A is pretty much an English-only game, any infos about the community can only be found in English. I've never found any German infos about what the heck Shoppa or WxW means.
On top of that, you can't get these infos in-game either, you need to search the world wide web as a new player.
You guys have no idea what you are talking about, you keep blurting out your own opinions as if they were facts, keep assuming for the worst, and degrade the efforts of countless community-building movements. Open up for a while.
And concluding, buying a game should be enough to get all infos straight-forward through the manual and in-game explanations.
"Opening up" four years ago... impossible! How do the current community explanations help a 7 to 10 year old German boy? No one told me how to host, no one explained me what Shoppa or all those game modes with rules are, and certainly I didn't know about any external programs I need to download to get the game to work. I also didn't know about the recent W:A updates by Cybershadow and DeadCode, as W:A doesn't check for updates automatically.
W:A has been taken over by a (English-speaking) community, and it's not really a game for casual players either.
Extremist2
22 Sep 2011, 20:56
idiot proof
That what I was going for. ;)
You can't have spaces in IRC channel names, and probably not ampersands either.
why? You can. It just depends on the IRC engine the WormNET is using. For example, Tomsk Wormnet previously had #Anything Goes with a space, and it was fine to join and see it from a game, IRC client or snooper. :) it was later that I told them to fix it better
I'm not sure if I got "real" experience. I played the game. A lot. I never went to any community sites, I just played the game, and that's it. But as GreeN stated before, that's not the true "W:A" experience when you are just "playing" the game, you need to integrate yourself to the community.
I don't agree with GreeN there, as a matter of fact. Even without being part of a community aside from a few familiar faced who you met online and occasionally play with, the W:A gaming experience is pretty much okay. Now the W:A social experience is another thing, but one can live without that if they so desire. And one can also get into it pretty easily.
How old are you? I'm 17 and 4 years ago when I was 13, I couldn't really speak English.
I'm 22 and I started playing WA when I was 18, but before that I've played WWP since I was 10 or 11 or something like that, and I believe I went online roughly the same age as you. Needless to say, my English was far from adequate. I sticked to "what is shoppa"-like questions, mostly. Also, as I said, WWP had a very small player base, with having 10 or more players online in any channel, or even the sum of them, basically crowded compared to the usual. On the other hand, when I switched to WA, there were 50-60 people in #AG at all times. I can't imagine you not finding a German(-speaking) player who wouldn't take 2 minutes of their lives to explain a common scheme.
Extremist2
22 Sep 2011, 23:36
I don't agree with GreeN there, as a matter of fact. Even without being part of a community aside from a few familiar faced who you met online and occasionally play with, the W:A gaming experience is pretty much okay. Now the W:A social experience is another thing, but one can live without that if they so desire. And one can also get into it pretty easily.
I personally prefer to do my socializing while playing.
why? You can. It just depends on the IRC engine the WormNET is using. For example, Tomsk Wormnet previously had #Anything Goes with a space, and it was fine to join and see it from a game, IRC client or snooper. :) it was later that I told them to fix it better
Hmm, really? News to me, I've just never seen a server that does support spaces (and I sort of assumed, possibly wrongly, that clients wouldn't).
CyberShadow
23 Sep 2011, 09:59
The IRC RFC explicitly forbids (http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/chapter1.html#c1_3) spaces in channel names. Usage of such channel names in IRC servers is a violation of the RFC, and any client "support" is a bug.
Spaces in channel names make certain commands impossible to use, for example MODE, TOPIC or KICK.
I can't imagine you not finding a German(-speaking) player who wouldn't take 2 minutes of their lives to explain a common scheme.
That's what happened, only far too late.
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