Time for Change

[BillT17]

For too long this forum has not had any significant input from Team17 staff, but I am hoping to put those things right in the near future. Last year Team17 created the position of Community Manager and it's taken me some time to get around to this forum after fighting fires on other fronts and getting things how I want them. I see the Team17 forum as something to feed all other things back to. So this is what I am proposing: -

An upgrade to the forum itself
A slimmed down number of sections
Archiving of older important posts so I can keep on top of things

As it stands the forum has too many threads for me to jump in and manage, I would prefer a clean start so I can keep up to date and have visiting the forum on my daily list of things to do. I also want to direct our Facebook, Twitter and YouTube fans to enter discussions here on the forum.

We have excellent volunteer mods on the forum that have done a great job over the years and the plan is to ask these mods to keep up the good work so that I can jump on questions asked where possible.

Ultimately though, this is your community so please help me by telling me what you would like to see, so tell me what sections would you like to see stay and what would you like to see go and what would you change? I can't promise we can do everything that will be asked for but I want to discuss it here. Also feel free to ask me questions about the forum.

Again, apologies for how long it's taken for me to get on the case, but you are going to see me a lot more on the forums now, so best get used to me. I'm planning a nice competition for the relaunch of the forums too, so we might get even more people on here.

Thoughts: -

[Lex]

If you're going to archive anything, please archive all the forums right here. Too many things link to threads on these forums to simply remove them from their current locations.

Other thoughts:


This forum software is probably the best I've ever used. If you're considering new forum software, I disagree.
There aren't really any threads to "step in and manage" here. If you see something that's worth responding to from now on, you can just respond. Mark everything as read right now, then just read and respond to future threads.
You alone have access to inside information. You alone can run around the office asking questions when someone asks an important question on here. Posting that information causes the community to get excited and the company to flourish.
You could open up posting to guests to increase usage.
Posting announcements here would increase awareness of this place's existence.

[BillT17]

If you're going to archive anything, please archive all the forums right here. Too many things link to threads on these forums to simply remove them from their current locations.

We already have an archived section on the Forum, I was going to archive stuff in there if that works for you

[GoDxWyvern]

Just a question: Did you mean every member of the T17 forums to see this topic or only those who have access to the Open Discussion sub forum? Seeing as the latter wouldn't make much sense to me. :)

[CyberShadow]

Hi,

What Lex meant is that it's very important that links to existing topics get preserved. Breaking links should be avoided at all costs.

Volcane has done some pruning of old threads last year for performance reasons. While he archived the data, the threads are no longer accessible from the web. I've talked to him about helping to create a read-only archive of those threads, but he's been busy with other things.

If posting in Open Discussion was a mistake, please recreate the thread in another subforum rather than moving this thread. Officially "outsiders" shouldn't even be aware of this subforum's existence.

[BillT17]

Just a question: Did you mean every member of the T17 forums to see this topic or only those who have access to the Open Discussion sub forum? Seeing as the latter wouldn't make much sense to me. :)

I wanted to run this by those members who contribute the most and have access to the open discussions forum in the first place and then at a later date to discuss with everyone.

[BillT17]

Hi,

What Lex meant is that it's very important that links to existing topics get preserved. Breaking links should be avoided at all costs.

Volcane has done some pruning of old threads last year for performance reasons. While he archived the data, the threads are no longer accessible from the web. I've talked to him about helping to create a read-only archive of those threads, but he's been busy with other things.

If posting in Open Discussion was a mistake, please recreate the thread in another subforum rather than moving this thread. Officially "outsiders" shouldn't even be aware of this subforum's existence.

Me and Volcane are talking about how best to do this and he will be making time to sort the forum out how we want it and this thread will be staying here and a separate thread for everyone will be done when I am nearer to putting everything in place.

[Lex]

I edited my post above to add some more thoughts.

[Lex]

We already have an archived section on the Forum, I was going to archive stuff in there if that works for youThe forums themselves work well enough as archives. There's no need to move things from their current locations just to feel like there's an "old stuff" section. Furthermore, I wish the archived stuff would be placed back where it was originally. It seems like most things from before 2006 is gone from here. I tried searching recently for something useful that I know was posted in 2004 and it wasn't there.

[CyberShadow]

More thoughts:

vBulletin (this forum's software) should allow doing some reorganizing while not breaking links to existing threads. Some things you can do:

Inactive / obsolete subforums can be locked (so that no new threads/posts can be posted), and moved to the archive
You can arrange subforums in a nested hierarchy, so they don't clutter the list of subforums on the main page
Subforums can also be merged together

Finally, you may want to keep in mind that some subforums have thrived on for years without Team17's intervention, and even developed their own community bubbles (groups of users who only read/post in a few subforums). Stirring up that balance too much may be received negatively by them.

[BillT17]

Some good suggestions Lex, let me comment on those: -

* This forum software is probably the best I've ever used. If you're considering new forum software, I disagree.

(This has actually been asked for by the moderators, there are some features that upgrading will greatly help them with)

* There aren't really any threads to "step in and manage" here. If you see something that's worth responding to from now on, you can just respond. Mark everything as read right now, then just read and respond to future threads.

(In the short term I will do that, but long term I want a fresh start not only for myself but for others too, there is far too much clutter here and to be frank some threads that should not even exist and I don't have the time to read each thread and prune)

* You alone have access to inside information. You alone can run around the office asking questions when someone asks an important question on here. Posting that information causes the community to get excited and the company to flourish.

(I will do what I can)

* You could open up posting to guests to increase usage.

(I will ask about this with Volcane)

* Posting announcements here would increase awareness of this place's existence.

(That will certainly be happening and I plan to run a number of competitions through our forum)

[CyberShadow]

* You could open up posting to guests to increase usage.

(I will ask about this with Volcane)

Moderators will probably be against this - we've enough spam even with the required registration and e-mail validation barrier. (It's not publicly visible because every new user's first 5 posts must be manually approved by a moderator.)

[Lex]

You alone have access to inside information. You alone can run around the office asking questions when someone asks an important question on here. Posting that information causes the community to get excited and the company to flourish.I will do what I canHave you heard of Ghostcrawler from Blizzard? He is the main Community Manager for World of Warcraft. I'm extremely familiar with how he works. I was trying to describe what he does. I realize that there's much less to handle here on the Team17 forums than what Ghostcrawler handles on WoW forums. You seem to be off to a good start with this. Keep in mind, though, that the point of Ghostcrawler's job is to attempt to eliminate as much secrecy and miscommunication between the company and the community as possible. You can avoid commitments by saying things like, "we are considering".

Anyway, it's exciting to have an actual Team17 community manager who will actually talk to the community much more than once every half-year.

Note: I heard there was plenty of discussion with the community recently on Steam and Facebook forums, but I don't consider those Team17 forums, so I don't really go there to talk to Team17. That's my fault.

[BillT17]

Thanks Lex, I have been all over the Steam forums and I run the Facebook pages for Worms and Team17 and YouTube and Twitter accounts, plus emails, although thankfully I don't do support emails now. :) So it's all coming together nicely and I see this forum as somewhere to bring it all together.

[Lex]

Also remember that not all news has to be good in the eyes of the community. Sometimes the community will have to adapt to your systems in order to create final happiness. If you need to do something to get things done, remember that it's Team17's decision in the end. Sometimes taking action before discussion is complete is far more productive, since more action can always be taken in the future. The point is that the community will mold itself around you no matter what you do, so if you want to do something that's helpful internally, do it.

That's probably really vague and/or verbose. I have something specific in mind but it's something I'm against, so I'd rather not prod that particular topic too much.

[Lex]

I know this is probably rather low on your priority list, but since you're the only Team17 member using these forums and the community expects Team17 responses to this sort of thing, your response to this thread (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43428) could be, "Alright! I've asked Volcane about this and he's unsure why this is happening. He suggested trying a gmail account to verify that it's not your obscure mail server's fault."

In this case, only a Team17 member can help him. When we (old community members who enjoy helping new community members) see a thread like that where we can't actually help them, we get disheartened because Team17 doesn't have (hasn't had) any visible support for people like that.

Edit: Note that I don't know his email address. The above response is a possible result after actually asking Volcane about it.

In Blizzard, Ghostcrawler doesn't deal with those types of threads, but the technical support people are constantly on the forums responding quickly and simply to those sorts of threads, usually with questions to make their personal process more efficient.

[BillT17]

I know this is probably rather low on your priority list, but since you're the only Team17 member using these forums and the community expects Team17 responses to this sort of thing, your response to this thread (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43428) could be, "Alright! I've asked Volcane about this and he's unsure why this is happening. He suggested trying a gmail account to verify that it's not your obscure mail server's fault."

In this case, only a Team17 member can help him. When we (old community members who enjoy helping new community members) see a thread like that where we can't actually help them, we get disheartened because Team17 doesn't have (hasn't had) any visible support for people like that.

Edit: Note that I don't know his email address. The above response is a possible result after actually asking Volcane about it.

In Blizzard, Ghostcrawler doesn't deal with those types of threads, but the technical support people are constantly on the forums responding quickly and simply to those sorts of threads, usually with questions to make their personal process more efficient.

I won't be jumping on those threads myself, but I will point others in the right direction. Case in point with the above thread, someone is already on the case. :)

[Lex]

Great! Keep it up. :)

You should also fix your forum avatar. Extreme compression/scaling artifacts like that aren't very professional.

[thomasp]

Just a question: Did you mean every member of the T17 forums to see this topic or only those who have access to the Open Discussion sub forum? Seeing as the latter wouldn't make much sense to me. :)
It was my suggestion that we start off asking OD first, as you guys have been here a lot longer than the more frequent posters outside!

Some good suggestions Lex, let me comment on those: -

* This forum software is probably the best I've ever used. If you're considering new forum software, I disagree.

I would support sticking with vBulletin! Not sure if vB4 has any features we can make use of to help improve the community - something worth looking in to.
* You could open up posting to guests to increase usage.

(I will ask about this with Volcane)

I would be strongly against the opening up of the forum to guest posting. We've got enough of a problem with spambots at the minute with them having to register, it would only increase to biblical amounts without the pre-registration!


On the subject of spambots, what do people think about the pre-moderation thing we have currently? I believe it's set at about 5 posts and something like 24hrs since registration. Once someone's had 5 posts approved, their posting rights are unlocked. This is a very effective method of stopping the spam from coming in to public view (most of the time... apart from when I click the wrong button!). Should this limit of posts stay as it is, be reduced, increased or removed totally? We could probably drop it down to 1 or 2 and still catch most of the spammers.

Obviously with increased usage on the forum and more new members, more posts would need approving. So, we may have to consider reducing the post limit for pre-moderation.


I believe we discussed this briefly in the mod forum, Bill, but I'd support archiving all posts from the forum, rather than a selection. Any archived posts could go into a read-only forum, so they can still be searched & viewed. If we start trying to decide which threads should be archived and which should be deleted outright, then we're quite likely to miss out some good threads.


In my opinion, this forum was at its peak "community-wise" during the Worms 3D development when the likes of Spadge, Kilburn and Luther were "leaking" (approved leaking) images from the game's development into the forum. The devs were also really involved in the forum, answering lots of questions about the game in a couple of Q&A threads. I realise this detracts from the game development, but it would be great if the devs could integrate themselves back into the community.

I imagine now you're moving towards digital distribution and don't have to worry about publishers having to approve the release of teaser images, it'd be much easier to do that.

[CyberShadow]

On the subject of spambots, what do people think about the pre-moderation thing we have currently? I believe it's set at about 5 posts and something like 24hrs since registration. Once someone's had 5 posts approved, their posting rights are unlocked. This is a very effective method of stopping the spam from coming in to public view (most of the time... apart from when I click the wrong button!). Should this limit of posts stay as it is, be reduced, increased or removed totally? We could probably drop it down to 1 or 2 and still catch most of the spammers.

Obviously with increased usage on the forum and more new members, more posts would need approving. So, we may have to consider reducing the post limit for pre-moderation.

Speaking from my limited experience as a lesser mod of the W:A forums, I've never seen spambots attempt to fool the moderation system by posting one or more legit posts, followed by spam. There were a few instances of hacked accounts, but not recently, so I assume that was taken care of. On the other hard, reducing the threshold would make targeted attacks easier, such as Cheech's porn flood that prompted the introduction of this system in the first place.

If there's one improvement I could suggest regarding the moderation system, is better feedback to users whose posts are moderated. People end up reposting their threads several times because as soon as they post a new thread, they only get a message that disappears in a few seconds, and they're returned to the thread list with no sign of their new thread. (Having said that, I haven't seen that happen recently, maybe it was taken care of as well?)

[thomasp]

Speaking from my limited experience as a lesser mod of the W:A forums, I've never seen spambots attempt to fool the moderation system by posting one or more legit posts, followed by spam. There were a few instances of hacked accounts, but not recently, so I assume that was taken care of. On the other hard, reducing the threshold would make targeted attacks easier, such as Cheech's porn flood that prompted the introduction of this system in the first place.
There was also a phase where spammers were making a couple of "semi-legitimate" posts (on their own they seemed fine, but in the context of threads, generally they were obviously computer-generated) to get approval and then adding signatures to their posts to spam-vertise that way. Although that seems to have stopped now.

I guess it'll be a trade-off between amount of posts in the mod queue and the likelyhood of another porn flood (which hasn't happened since the mod queue was introduced, I believe).

[CyberShadow]

There was also a phase where spammers were making a couple of "semi-legitimate" posts (on their own they seemed fine, but in the context of threads, generally they were obviously computer-generated) to get approval and then adding signatures to their posts to spam-vertise that way.You're right, I forgot about those.

[Lex]

In my opinion, this forum was at its peak "community-wise" during the Worms 3D development when the likes of Spadge, Kilburn and Luther were "leaking" (approved leaking) images from the game's development into the forum. The devs were also really involved in the forum, answering lots of questions about the game in a couple of Q&A threads. I realise this detracts from the game development, but it would be great if the devs could integrate themselves back into the community.The point of a Community Manager is so that developers, designers, artists, etc. can focus on their jobs entirely and the Community Manager can manage the community interaction. With a good Community Manager (as Bill is turning out to be), developers, artists, and designers never have to read or post on forums. He'll just talk to them, get files from them, ask them things, explain things to us, and listen to us. It would have been Ben Paddon's dream job a few years ago, I'm sure.

[thomasp]

The point of a Community Manager is so that developers, designers, artists, etc. can focus on their jobs entirely and the Community Manager can manage the community interaction. With a good Community Manager (as Bill is turning out to be), developers, artists, and designers never have to read or post on forums. He'll just talk to them, get files from them, ask them things, explain things to us, and listen to us. It would have been Ben Paddon's dream job a few years ago, I'm sure.
As long as there's someone at Team17 there to tease the community with taster images and such like, that's just as good :) For example, remember when Spadge released those pics of Worms Battle Racer to OD?

[SargeMcCluck]

I've only got two queries right now:

Are there any plans to change how things work with Open Discussion? (e.g. allow everyone to post in it or get rid of it)

If so, that's a real shame!

If not, then I like the idea of a mass-archive and starting somewhat new, but I think a total archiving wouldn't be. Keeping some of the longer running threads (in OD there's the 100% Off Topic as a great example, and several sticky threads in Online Orgy are still relevant and I feel there's no need to archive them). It could just be as simple as to archive everything except stickies, and go through the stickies and see if they're still relevant/useful. There's so few stickies that it would be possible to do that. (p.s. in that case, someone'd better sticky 100% OT!)

[thomasp]

As far as I'm aware, some of the key forums would stay, of which OD would be one. Online Orgy would have a bit of a rebranding to make it more relevant, but not like an "OD for everyone". We're currently undecided about fanart!

[SargeMcCluck]

Oh, and seeing how we lost a huge amount of early posts when there was a database culling, would it be better to export the current database and set up a second forum as an archive, rather than a subforum? e.g. forum.team17.com/archive/ pointing to a seperate database on a locked forum. That way the re-done forum could have a clean database (or at least, the posts (and attachments) tables), and there'd not need to be another post culling (which I understand was needed, but still sucks, so many great posts gone!)

Not sure how the vBulletin license works regarding two forums on one server, but assuming it's all okay I think that'd be a good idea.

[MtlAngelus]

I think if any archiving has to be done, it should be done by simply locking and hiding the forum in question, but still allowing access to them. And maybe keep a link labeled "old stuff" somewhere on the frontpage.

As for pre-moderation, I am somewhat fond of Kotaku's method of "starred" commenters, where a starred commenter has the limited power to approve new accounts. Sort of like a less powerful user mod. However I'm not quite sure how it would work here and it could bring back the "issue" of elitism that got our custom statuses removed. Even tho it wasn't really an issue and I still miss my "Game Junkie" custom status. :c



Also, 666 for Vader. Make it happen. :p

[CyberShadow]

By the way, I'm not against the idea of merging the two W:A subforums. They were a good idea at the time, but nowadays either aren't very active, and the presence of two subforums often confuses users.

[Xinos]

I'm all for simplifying the forum, but don't overdo it. Merging too many forums (in addition to the effort of getting more people on here) means threads disappear and get moved off the front page quickly.

[BillT17]

Lots of good suggestions here. On reflection I'm very much in favor of keeping somewhere for Fan Art but I also agree there are too many sub forums at the moment which would probably overwhelm a new user to the forum. I might run some focus tests on it.

As for Fan Art, I've got a comp running at the moment, will be nice to see what happens. :)

[Lex]

I also agree there are two many sub forums at the moment which would probably overwhelm a new user to the forum.Which two? :p

[BillT17]

Which two? :p

Good spot. However in my defense, it's Friday.

[SargeMcCluck]

I think if any archiving has to be done, it should be done by simply locking and hiding the forum in question, but still allowing access to them. And maybe keep a link labeled "old stuff" somewhere on the frontpage.

Exactly. Having them in a seperate forum (or, rather, database) means we won't lose them. (I don't know if Bill was around then, but if you weren't - we lost several years of posts as the database was far too large and slowed the forum down).

This timing is wonderful as I recently reinstalled W:A and W:R. A T17 revival!

[BillT17]

Exactly. Having them in a seperate forum (or, rather, database) means we won't lose them. (I don't know if Bill was around then, but if you weren't - we lost several years of posts as the database was far too large and slowed the forum down).

This timing is wonderful as I recently reinstalled W:A and W:R. A T17 revival!

I was around (been at T17 for 14 years now) just not aware of what had happened and yes all of this is just for you, didn't you know? :)

[SargeMcCluck]

yes all of this is just for you, didn't you know? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggXmKPMaHMo

[thomasp]

Exactly. Having them in a seperate forum (or, rather, database) means we won't lose them. (I don't know if Bill was around then, but if you weren't - we lost several years of posts as the database was far too large and slowed the forum down).

This timing is wonderful as I recently reinstalled W:A and W:R. A T17 revival!
It didn't just slow the forum down, it crashed it pretty much every Friday evening and on a few occasions corrupted the database.

[SargeMcCluck]

It didn't just slow the forum down, it crashed it pretty much every Friday evening and on a few occasions corrupted the database.

Right, that too. My bad.

[bonz]

What we really, really, reaaallyyy need back:
Competitions, raffles and sweepstakes, where we can win Team17/Worms merchandise!
I can still remember where we had to guess the amount of code lines in W3D!

Also, IIRC, such events happened on a weekly basis before Christmas for a few years, but even if it's once a month throughout the year, this would be very nice.

[thomasp]

And also bringing back the Team17 April Fools joke :D

[SomePerson]

Wait, so why on earth do we need to archive anything? What's wrong with leaving it as-is? Are there no other alternatives to the crashing issue? Server side ram upgrade or something?

If you do have to archive things, maybe as general practice archive all threads after 1 year of no posts? Definitely keep some of the larger currently active threads. I think 100% Off-Topic thread is the #1 thing that has me coming back, I don't know what I'd do if I lost it.

Also I agree that losing links would be very upsetting. So many threads reference other threads, that would be a lot to lose.

(In the short term I will do that, but long term I want a fresh start not only for myself but for others too, there is far too much clutter here and to be frank some threads that should not even exist and I don't have the time to read each thread and prune) I don't know it's anyone's business but the community as a whole to decide what threads should and should not exist. It's rather arbitrary to me to say "this thread should go" and delete it. There are some threads that are useless but they have every right to exist, they just get dropped off the page. I'd feel very oppressed if threads were selectively deleted based on merit. Obviously some threads get out of hand and maybe that's what you meant but on the whole I don't think we should go about deleting threads just because.

If we go to vb4, keep the retro purple skin!! I can't go back to the default it just wouldn't be the same. Keep the current smilies too.

[bonz]

Hmm, archiving threads would also hinder me returning to ancient threads and making beer jokes.

[BillT17]

I don't know it's anyone's business but the community as a whole to decide what threads should and should not exist. It's rather arbitrary to me to say "this thread should go" and delete it. There are some threads that are useless but they have every right to exist, they just get dropped off the page. I'd feel very oppressed if threads were selectively deleted based on merit. Obviously some threads get out of hand and maybe that's what you meant but on the whole I don't think we should go about deleting threads just because.

I understand what you are saying but I couldn't disagree more. For example today I noticed a hacking thread on the Worms Reloaded forum. Are you seriously telling me that I don't have the right to shut that down? Would you also like me to allow threads to exist that are blatant trolling? My job is to make sure that this forum remains somewhere we are happy for ALL our customers/fans to come. I have a lot of respect for long time contributors but final decisions regarding what stays and goes rests with me.

[Lex]

In response to hacking threads, no, you should absolutely not "shut them down". You should respond to them, explaining that Team17 is working to resolve the security issues with the game, like a responsible company. You should be running around the office, telling people there's a serious problem with the game's security. Don't just sweep it under the rug. The point of your job is to tackle issues head-on.

I don't know if you're aware, but one can cheat online in Worms Reloaded by using CheatEngine or ArtMoney on their turn. Any moron can do it. This is a major issue. It's fixable. Other game companies would be actively responding to reports of this behavior and banning people while they worked hard on releasing patches to fix it and informing the community of their progress. They would be telling everyone to report cheating immediately and warning cheaters that if they are caught cheating, they will be banned as soon as possible.

MrLee would be having a field day with this if he was still around.

[BillT17]

Sorry Lex, but I have to disagree with you here. I will not tolerate discussions about how to hack our current games and Team17 should certainly not be seen to be hosting these kinds of conversations on our hosted forum.

[Lex]

Well, getting rid of the conversation is fair as long as you handle the problems such conversations bring to light and inform the concerned community of progress once their solutions are completed. There's no reason to completely disregard that such problems exist.

[CyberShadow]

Bill, that is a horrible decision to make. Deleting "hacking" threads and banning their authors will only рiss off people who have the power to ruin everyone's day. A better solution is to edit sensitive information out of the posts and thank the posters for bringing the issue to Team17's attention. Of course, it's kinda hopeless in the case for Worms Reloaded, since any moron indeed can trivially cheat with basic (no-brains-required) memory editing software. If you are adamant at keeping the forum clean of certain topics, users should be explained in PM why their posts/threads were deleted, and certainly not banned.

I was shocked and disgusted when FrederiqueWP, the author of a genuinely useful program for Worms Reloaded (which allowed running the game to run in a window), was permanently banned from the Steam forums. Why? Because he happened to post a hex offset in relation to cheating. It's obvious that the forum mod who banned him had no idea what it was other than scary hacking numbers, because knowing that offset does not make it easier to cheat for anyone.

I'd like to mention that both me and Deadcode started our career of W:A hacking with making cheats. (Since W:A was written from the ground up to be secure, our cheats had to be considerably more sophisticated to work.) Today, the game is still active in part because it's blooming with 3rd-party mods made by the same so-called "hackers" that extend the game in (http://worms2d.info/The_Fiddler) all (http://worms2d.info/WkMagic) kinds (http://worms2d.info/RubberWorm) of (http://worms2d.info/Project_X) ways (http://worms2d.info/WkIndiMask). Alienating that part of the fanbase will go against creating a lasting community.

[BillT17]

When I get round to doing the full relaunch, I will make sure that rules are very clear and that discussions about hacking our games will not be allowed on our own forum. By allowing these discussions we are in affect giving our tacit approval to them which of course we do not. Certainly not on games that we are currently selling. We don't want people to find out about these hacks by reading about them on a forum hosted by us.

As regards FrederiqueWP on the Steam forums, that was entirely down to the Valve moderators and they have very clear rules about posting about things like that.

We've talked a number of times CyberShadow and you know my own personal feelings on the WA mods, but if this forum is to be supported by T17 staff, we need to tow the company line on this.

[CyberShadow]

We discussed this topic on MSN for a bit, and it looks like there was a bit of over-reacting and misunderstanding due to the ambiguity of the term "hacking". So, to clarify and in conclusion:
We can agree that people just spamming links to cheats/trainers don't improve the situation for anyone.
Discussions of constructive modding ("hacks" which improve the game) ought to be allowed.
Technical discussions about cheating are a sensitive area, because:
Allowing them may create the impression that cheating is tolerated;
Punishing users for discussing such topics risks alienating the technical part of the community.

What's most important is that instances of this third border-line case should be dealt with tactfully. Before taking action, one should consider: does the posted information facilitate cheating? If it doesn't, silently removing it may be interpreted as censorship of criticism and wilful ignorance, so one would need to tread carefully here.

[BillT17]

Nice summary. Can I also mention that I will be drawing up a list of rules for when the reboot of the forum happens and that I will be running these past the open discussion forum before posting these to the general public.

I hope this discussion here also helps to outline my resolve in getting this forum into a state where it can be seen as useful for both Team17 and the forum users.

[SargeMcCluck]

We can agree that people just spamming links to cheats/trainers don't improve the situation for anyone.

That should of course result in a ban.

Discussions of constructive modding ("hacks" which improve the game) ought to be allowed.

That shouldn't, imo. Referring to "modding" rather than "hacking" could clear that up.

Technical discussions about cheating are a sensitive area, because:
Allowing them may create the impression that cheating is tolerated;
Punishing users for discussing such topics risks alienating the technical part of the community.

I understand T17 not wanting cheats and hacking to be discussed on the forum. Maybe there should be a sticky with an e-mail address or contact form? That way if somebody is aware of game hacking they can let T17 know (who can hopefully try to fix it) without it being publicly discussed.

[thomasp]

With regards to the hacking/modding thing, I seem to remember around the times of W3D/W4, people found ways to modify weapons beyond the weapons creator (in W4), and to switch landscapes between the games. Spadge allowed discussion of these "mods" on the forum, on the grounds that they were never used in online play, and anyone caught using them online would be banned. Things like mods (in most cases) help the community spirit. (You then have the whole K^2 issue... which may lean a bit more towards hacking than modding... but we'll leave that for now)

However, "hacks" are bad. Where someone has the ability to modify their rank to 9 billion billion billion billion or whatever, discussion of that should be prohibited on the forum. If someone posts such a hack purely with the purposes of reporting it (and no malicious intent), then the content of the post should be edited out (easy enough now we have a fully viewable edit history) and the thread locked, notifying the user that T17 are aware. In this case, the user shouldn't be banned. If someone comes in and says "here's how to get an infinitely high rank", then the thread should be completely removed, along with the user.


That's just my opinion though.

[SupSuper]

I think game developers in general have zero-tolerance against hacking because it's a very delicate area. Pretty much anything that can be used for good can also be used for bad, an exploit is an exploit whether you try to use it to improve the game or break it, and most of the internet are assholes. It's easier to rule it out with an iron first then to carefully control and monitor everything, since the minute you support it you're responsible for all the consequences.

And Team17 have a long history of people hacking/cheating their games, specially when it's as simple as taking their modifications online to ruin everyone's day, so I can see why they're not too fond of it (even if it's partly their fault). But that doesn't mean they should "ignore it and hope it goes away" either. Serious issues with their games (leaks/exploits/etc.) should be directed to the company directly instead of being outed in public forums, like for any software, and dealt with promptly. Any other kind of hack/mod discussion should be checked with a moderator first to ensure it's ok.

[FutureWorm]

if i had to consolidate the boards, i would make the structure as follows:

Team17
> Announcements
> Upcoming

Wormchat
> PC (W:A, Reloaded)
> Portable (iPhone, W:OW2)
> Console (PSN, Battle Islands, XBLA, etc.)
> Cross-platform (W4M)
> Classic (Worms Forts and everything prior)

Other Games
> Alien Breed
> Lemmings

Community
> Fan Frenzy (or something like that. consolidates OO, GD, and FA)
> Open Discussion

Support
> Support/Technical
> W:A Support

archive everything else, post regular competitions and stuff in FF, tease frequent development updates in the "upcoming" forum. if you build it they will come

[philby4000]

I propose a universal lifting of avatar size limits so that Avatar Absurdity can become relevant again.

We should allow users to fully customise their posts. I'm thinking a small selection of tasteful wallpapers (say 10,000) and the ability to create and install custom fonts. And drop [bb] code, let's get some rich text formating up ins.

It is 2011, where are my multimedia sound/animation emotocons that tap on the screen and have seven hillarious phrases each?

also replace fanart with a seperate oekaki board.

[FutureWorm]

I propose a universal lifting of avatar size limits so that Avatar Absurdity can become relevant again.

We should allow users to fully customise their posts. I'm thinking a small selection of tasteful wallpapers (say 10,000) and the ability to create and install custom fonts. And drop [bb] code, let's get some rich text formating up ins.

It is 2011, where are my multimedia sound/animation emotocons that tap on the screen and have seven hillarious phrases each?

also replace fanart with a seperate oekaki board.
only if you also allow embedding of audio files so that i can enhance various threads with the soothing sounds of eric prydz - call on me

[SomePerson]

only if you also allow embedding of audio files so that i can enhance various threads with the soothing sounds of eric prydz - call on me

We need a facebook style "Like" button so that I can "like" this post. :D

[bonz]

We need a facebook style "Like" button so that I can "like" this post. :D
http://img602.imageshack.us/img602/6848/ilikeprydz.png (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_fCqg92qks)

[SupSuper]

if i had to consolidate the boards, i would make the structure as follows:



archive everything else, post regular competitions and stuff in FF, tease frequent development updates in the "upcoming" forum. if you build it they will come
Looks pretty good, focuses on the active stuff while consolidating the inactive. Usually when structuring forums it's better to start small and expand as necessary, instead of trying to predict and needlessly split everything up which ends up with very unbalanced forums (as T17F is now).

Though the WA and WR forums should stay separate given the completely opposite communities. :p

To avoid confusion and the pain of moving everything into its new place, maybe just move all the current forums into an Archive or Old category (or separate database if it's possible while preserving links), therefore preserving all the old info in its current structure without causing confusion, and all the still-relevant stuff (pinned/active/important topics) can be moved/recreated in its new place.

[Lex]

Though the WA and WR forums should stay separate given the completely opposite communities. :pThat's true, and the WA Support forum can be merged with the WA forum.

Forum-wise, as long as all the URLs remain the same, it doesn't really matter to me. Those URLs with thread IDs are used in way too many places to be disturbed.

[FutureWorm]

Though the WA and WR forums should stay separate given the completely opposite communities. :p

yeah, you're right. doesn't make sense for W:A support to be a separate board, either; just consolidate that into the main w:a board. move the community boards up top where they belong. then add an archive where you can put exemplary threads, terrible threads, and everything else:

Team17
> Announcements
> Upcoming

Community
> Fan Frenzy (or something like that. consolidates OO, GD, and FA)
> Open Discussion

Wormchat
> PC (Reloaded)
> Cross-platform (W4M)
> Portable (iPhone, W:OW2)
> Console (PSN, Battle Islands, XBLA, etc.)
> Classic (Worms Forts and everything prior)
> Worms Armageddon Chat & Support

Other Games
> Alien Breed
> Lemmings

Support
> Support/Technical

Archive
> Great Threads
> Terrible Threads
> Everything Else

[bloopy]

You should also fix your forum avatar. Extreme compression/scaling artifacts like that aren't very professional.

Since I don't have much to add, I'll second that!

I also like the sound of competitions and whatnot returning.

[BillT17]

What's wrong with my avatar? I've gone for a retro feel to it. :)

I will update it when I get a bit of free time (ie never)

[thomasp]

What's wrong with my avatar? I've gone for a retro feel to it. :)

I will update it when I get a bit of free time (ie never)
I think it's more the quality of the image - there seems to be quite a lot of compression on it, and the 'Team17' is quite pixellated.

[Lex]

Everyone looking to you for professionalism notices. It's not just us. The image has good content, but improper quality. You work at Team17. They have the original vector art for that. It shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to get the proper version. I know this sounds like it doesn't matter, but it does. The way you present yourself as the person presenting things is extremely important.

It looks like it's supposed to be a light-hearted joke about how Team17 is doing well enough to be able to waste time picking their noses, but due to the image quality, it just looks like Team17 is busy picking their noses instead of producing quality media.

I hope I explained that right.

[SupSuper]

It looks like a image that exceeded the forum avatar limit so it got crappilyautomatically resized/compressed as a result.

Edit: Here's a cleaner reproduction I made with images from Google:

[Lex]

I don't know about that one. Bill's still looks better. At least it has the thick outline. :p

[CyberShadow]

Edit: Here's a cleaner reproduction I made with images from Google:

You suck at Photoshop.

http://dump.thecybershadow.net/523779e19c21f188502c788e2f044fb6/Bill.png

(PSD (http://dump.thecybershadow.net/0f09d653aca71a41b4e6aee2df800aa8/Bill.psd))

[Lex]

Something looked wrong, so I edited it.
http://lex.clansfx.co.uk/image/BillT17.png

[Zero72]

Here's an upside-down version in a sepia tone.

...

Nah, I don't have the tools handy to do that right now, but it would have been a pretty funny recurring gag.

[Xinos]

What a community effort this is turning out to be. :p
Well, I didn't much like the aliased pixel(s) on his back so I added a thicker border. Also, why was the logo larger than the actual image?
http://xinart.net/images/dump/Bill.jpg
Psd (http://xinart.net/images/dump/Bill.psd), if anybody want's to continue from here.

[Lex]

It does have an outline. CyberShadow didn't add a thicker outer border like that because it would look wrong due to inconsistency with the hand, eyes, etc. Since it's a scaled raster image rather than a vector image, it had to use the original border size.

Also, in your image, the brown border is inconsistent with the black used for all the other borders on the worm.

One could do a magic selection of all the black on the worm layer and give it a half-pixel black border. I wonder how that would look. I wouldn't imagine very good, but if I had Photoshop, I'd try it.

[Xinos]

I disagree. In WA the worm outlines are lighter than the eyes and eyebrows which are black. And if you sample the darkest pixels of the the internal borders you'll see that it is pretty close to the red color of the thick border. The reason I made the border that color is because red is complementary to green. I think the background-outline contrast is more important than the outline-internal details contrast.

Now, you are certainly right about the border being inconsistent in thickness, but I liked it.

I won't be surprised if Bill thinks we are totally insane arguing over this and just gets somebody at the office to make him a new one :p

[Lex]

Worms Armageddon has a more elegant style in general than the artist who drew the above image. This paragraph and both sentences it contains are irrelevant to our discussion and my response.

Your image is nice, but I still think black would make a better contrast to the green than brown does.

[bonz]

New thread title:
Time for Changing Bill's Avatar

[CyberShadow]

How about this? (PSD (http://dump.thecybershadow.net/3bd6ec4757b3c2bc133596ccc5e650bb/Bill-thick2.psd))

http://dump.thecybershadow.net/e1a8e4fe70305d74022712f95a8ed477/Bill-thick2.png

[Lex]

That's perfect! :D

[SupSuper]

You suck at Photoshop.That would explain it since I used Paint. :p At least mine is actually within the 9.8kb avatar limit.

[CyberShadow]

Only because you used JPEG :)

Forum-limit-obeying JPEGs:
http://dump.thecybershadow.net/5fd1d1c86d583e770f4f8e1f2d69fd68/Bill.jpg http://dump.thecybershadow.net/870fcefd7821c5cd67f8c26f6957b8b0/Bill-thick2.jpg

[Xinos]

Good. But I thought we wanted to get Bill to increase the avatar limit. ;)

[thomasp]

Thank you for bringing the thread back on topic, Xinos!

[BillT17]

Aww thanks guys, so nice to see you all caring so much. I've gone and used the one from Cybershadow and now hopefully we can move on. :) However just a point that I took slight offense at the name used for the avatar (billthick) or am I reading too much into that? :)

[Lex]

"Thick" meant "thick black lines" to distinguish from its thin-lined counterparts.

[philby4000]

This sort of thread derail could have been completely avoided if Avatar Absurdity was in a more visible position on the front page.

[Lex]

The thread wasn't derailed. This was on-topic; related to Bill's professionalism as the main representative of Team17.

[CyberShadow]

However just a point that I took slight offense at the name used for the avatar (billthick) or am I reading too much into that? :)Haha :) Lex nailed it, though.

[BillT17]

"Thick" meant "thick black lines" to distinguish from its thin-lined counterparts.

Thank you, I can rest at ease now.

Irony (also available outside the UK)

[Pooka]

I really like FutureWorm's list of subfora up there. That sort of list looks like a much more streamlined and easy-to-access forum.

They should be in that order too.

[Zero72]

Yeah, I'll pitch in another vote for that.

[BillT17]

Time to do a lazarus on this thread, I'm nearly ready to make changes to the forum. What I want now are some suggestions on the support section which apart from the WA section of course is useless. I'm thinking that simple FAQs on current games is the minimum. Also if anyone still has thoughts on rearranging the forum, happy to listen.

[SupSuper]

I think the problem with the current Support section is that it's both completely ignored by users and Team17.

1. Users already treat any forum they find as a "support forum", immediately posting their issues in the forum for the respective game. The Support forum is too generic (what constitutes "support"? bug reports? fatal issues? complaints? etc.) and stuck at the bottom with no visibility so it only gets used as a last-resort for issues that aren't covered by other forums (decade-old games, forum/website, etc.)

2. Team17 doesn't pay attention to the Support forum either, with support requests just being directed to support@team17.com anyways.

3. There's no consistency, with some forums having their own special support sections, information being spread among various game websites and forums, etc. All the old FAQ/Support stuff has vanished due to database mishaps anyways.

My suggestion would be to just put the FAQ/Support for each game on their respective forum, instead of keeping them isolated like now. Make it a subforum if you have to.

And if you want people to use support@team17.com, put that information somewhere, because the only mention of it (aside from your posts) is buried in the website's Contact page. A dedicated Support / Knowledge Base / Wiki / whatever section on the website would be a lot more effective than trying to shove everything into the forum where it might not even belong.

[CyberShadow]

Well said, SupSuper.

I'd like to add that despite that there's a sticky in the W:A forum asking people to post support questions in the support forum, many people still ignore it and post whatever they want wherever they want. I'm not sure if having a subforum per game is worth it. The Steam WR forum (ttp://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=941) simply has a few sticky threads related to support - I'm not sure how well that's working out since I'm not following it, but it might be worth considering.

By the way, something needs to be done about "New and Up & Coming Titles" :p

[BillT17]

Thanks guys, good feedback. Will keep it in mind.

[bonz]

True.
Sticky threads at the beginning of a sub-forum seem to be the most effective nowadays.

People on the internet, including newbies, apparently have no problem to quickly learn how to "bump" a thread to the top of the forum where it can be seen, as opposed to learning how to RTFM (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=669347&postcount=22). :rolleyes:

[BillT17]

I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm pretty much in agreement with most of what's been said. Please feedback on the following layout.

Team17

Announcements
Moderation (only visible to moderators)
Up & Coming Titles
Beta Forums (only visible if you are in a particular Beta test)

Community

Fan Frenzy (will have fan art, comps, clan discussions)
Open Discussion (as is today, should this still be limited?)

Game Chat & Support

Currently Supported Games (want to draw a distinction between games T17 actively support and older titles, I'm open to suggestions on how to word this, this would lead to sub forums for each game and a sticky thread for each that offers support. Questions dealt with directly on the forum instead of sending people off to support@team17.com)
Older Titles (would we want a seperate WA section or would we put it under the older titles? )

Archive

(suggestions on how to split archived threads up please? )

Ok. Please remember this is a starting point and I'm happy to discuss your thoughts on this. I'm currently talking to management so that I can take over the whole support side of things, ie so it comes under my jurisdiction and I can start making it more effective.

[CyberShadow]

To be clear, we're still going to have one subforum per game, right? Clumping multiple games into a single thread list creates problems, such as the requirement to make it clear which game every thread is referring to. This problem becomes more acute if the plan is to merge multiple forums into one. At the very least, I'd object rather loudly to W:A discussion sharing a subforum with other games :)

As for the separation between newer/older games: is there, perhaps, a range of years that can split between the two? E.g. if Team17 supports all games released since 2007, you could just name them "2007 - Present" and "199x - 2006" or something like that.

would we want a seperate WA section or would we put it under the older titles?As discussed, one subforum for W:A should be enough.

[BillT17]

To be clear, we're still going to have one subforum per game, right? Clumping multiple games into a single thread list creates problems, such as the requirement to make it clear which game every thread is referring to. This problem becomes more acute if the plan is to merge multiple forums into one. At the very least, I'd object rather loudly to W:A discussion sharing a subforum with other games :)

As for the separation between newer/older games: is there, perhaps, a range of years that can split between the two? E.g. if Team17 supports all games released since 2007, you could just name them "2007 - Present" and "199x - 2006" or something like that.

As discussed, one subforum for W:A should be enough.

Yes, 1 subforum per game, but I don't want to create sub forums for example for Body Blows or Apidyia, might have to clump some games together. WA would not have to share :)

[philby4000]

I feel it's important that there be an off-topic forum that the entire community has access too (Onlne Orgy has basically taken that role for years now), but I'd also like to keep our secret clubhouse.

[SupSuper]

Is it really worth keeping the "secret clubhouse" though? I know, very debatable, but let's face it we've all had our fun, met cool people, etc, but it's pretty much done and we've moved on. I've pretty much got everyone's contacts and talk to you guys directly when needed, and I'm sure others use IRC or whatever to chat it up instead ot his forum. It's pretty much dead and any new people we invite don't change anything since we just use it as our personal soap operas and LiveJournals. Seriously. Think about it.

There's barely any new posts here anyways, and the few are usually discussing topics that could be opened up to everyone. I mean come on it's the internet, you shouldn't need a secret clubhouse by now to protect yourself from stupiditiy, just deal with it and move on. Open Discussion was originally founded to keep off-topic spam under control, and given how dead the forum is these days, I don't think that's an issue anymore. Online Orgy, the current "public open discussion", is barely active as is.

TL;DR: Close down the current Open Discussion, start a brand new public Open Discussion, get over it. Every other forum has done it. :p

[thomasp]

Community

Fan Frenzy (will have fan art, comps, clan discussions)
Open Discussion (as is today, should this still be limited?)


Is it really worth keeping the "secret clubhouse" though?

Is it worth keeping the "Speculation" forum (and put it in the "Community" forum maybe), or could we cover that in a general off-topic forum?

With regards to OD, I think keep things as they are (mainly for ease), but also create a general off topic discussion forum for everyone - although we'll need some tighter rules on what type of threads are and aren't allowed, as moderation could be a bit of a nightmare! Looser rules than Online Orgy would promote a bit more discussion, but not a total free-for-all.


As for archiving - threads in the existing games forums can be kept as they are (where multiple subforums exist, like for W3D, ditch the subforums and move all the threads into the main forum). Online Orgy, Games Discussion and maybe Speculation & Discussion can be thrown into a general archive (keep the respective threads in their subforms, just move the whole lot into an archive) that's closed for posting.

That's my opinion at least!

[Worm Mad]

I'm inclined to agree with Sup but then again, I'm not really around much anymore.

Whatever happens, we'll always have pineapples. :cool:

[SargeMcCluck]

Or, in the case of the sane, not have them. :D

[Akuryou13]

Is it really worth keeping the "secret clubhouse" though? I know, very debatable, but let's face it we've all had our fun, met cool people, etc, but it's pretty much done and we've moved on. I've pretty much got everyone's contacts and talk to you guys directly when needed, and I'm sure others use IRC or whatever to chat it up instead ot his forum. It's pretty much dead and any new people we invite don't change anything since we just use it as our personal soap operas and LiveJournals. Seriously. Think about it.

There's barely any new posts here anyways, and the few are usually discussing topics that could be opened up to everyone. I mean come on it's the internet, you shouldn't need a secret clubhouse by now to protect yourself from stupiditiy, just deal with it and move on. Open Discussion was originally founded to keep off-topic spam under control, and given how dead the forum is these days, I don't think that's an issue anymore. Online Orgy, the current "public open discussion", is barely active as is.

TL;DR: Close down the current Open Discussion, start a brand new public Open Discussion, get over it. Every other forum has done it. :pI'm kind of conflicted with this idea. On one front, I can't disagree with any particular point. On the other hand, I don't want to see just any random newbie to the forum posting on a wide open forum.

I'd say maybe require a certain number of posts or certain amount of time before a forumer gets access, but that still seems pointlessly exclusive.

I dunno. I don't see the point of having an exclusive clubhouse just for people we personally think are cool, when we can just have personal chats via MSN, etc, and there aren't really that many annoying people around here, realistically.

maybe let's just keep OD as an easily revoked privilege? Let people post here, but if they get too annoying, ban them from this part of the forum.

I dunno, I'm just throwing out ideas. I'm up for a change, I just don't know what sort of change, ya know?

[Lex]

Just make sure that if you're getting rid of forums, don't delete threads. The hours many people have poured into these forums have created many very useful posts, including many linked from outside the forums. I know I've said this before, but I'm saying it again just to reinforce the importance.

I agree with CyberShadow's response.

Also, I disagree with the use of "Up & Coming".

Edit: Afterthought: This thread is useful. If we didn't have this here in a secret area where you could discuss community-oriented decisions with level-headed community members away from the public eye, this sort of discussion would be much more difficult.

[Xinos]

I don't know, I'm conflicted on opening OD up for public. I really only come here to talk to the people who are here. Then again, it's not like we won't be able to keep our conversations just because new people are let in.

I guess I'm just afraid this place will be overrun with stupidity and I'll loose interest.
So what I'd most like to see is a new Off Topic discussion open for everybody, but also keep the old OD around, that would act as an active archive.
And if we all naturally move to the new forum, then great! We can all just ignore thus place or make it a closed archive.

[Melon]

I think OD served it's purpose well enough at a time when the forum was so busy that it was hard to get any sort of proper discussion going without the sorts of ridiculous noise you'd expect from a "gamer forum". These days it doesn't really seem necessary though, the forum hardly has any posts in the community sections as it is. I won't really mind whether it goes or stays to be honest, but if it's going to go, archiving it but making access to the archive restricted to those who already have OD access would be the best (because there are some things like people's MSN/Steam etc. accounts linked to that some people probably don't want posted in public).

For the rest of the forum, no real opinions but I am wondering if there needs to be a separate Fan Art section or if it should just be merged with Online Orgy into an all purpose "Community" forum, at least while the forum remains in it's current state of activity. Online Orgy was never a true off topic forum anyway, it was mostly other game chat.

[SupSuper]

I'd say maybe require a certain number of posts or certain amount of time before a forumer gets access, but that still seems pointlessly exclusive.
I think there's moderation rules in place for that.
Edit: Afterthought: This thread is useful. If we didn't have this here in a secret area where you could discuss community-oriented decisions with level-headed community members away from the public eye, this sort of discussion would be much more difficult.
Perhaps, but hopefully this will be the last need for one. And the "public eye" is the community, no matter how stupid they may be. They're the ones who are really gonna be affected by the changes, not us old bitter cynics who constitute 1% of the community and barely hang around anymore but get to play arbitrary rulers.

I'm just saying, if the forum's gonna change for the better than the elitism should go, it's caused enough trouble in the past.

Edit: As for archiving the old stuff, the forum should at least get a new slate so the database doesn't keep crashing from all the junk. I don't know if it's possible to move the old stuff to a separate read-only server (ala SomethingAwful Forums) while preserving links and such though.

[Lex]

I use these forums more than those users. These changes are just as much for people like me as them.

[Akuryou13]

I vote for the in between those two points, lex and sup. Have an officially sanctioned section on the forum for off-topic posts available to anyone currently able to use Online Orgy (or just redub online orgy as an actual off-topic place). We can start up some threads for general discussion and goofing off, sort of like what we have here in OD.

however, KEEP OD where it is. We've been here forever and we've proven to be reasonable folk. We can keep this section out of the way for use in private discussions related to changes on the forums, possibly even beta test some of those changes, if they can be restricted to a single area, or just toss around ideas like we're doing now. There's no need to waste a resource in the form of a group of people known to be clear-headed, but there's no reason to give those same people further privileges beyond that of normal users.

[MtlAngelus]

I think OD should stay. Otherwise, we'll have to nuke every thread here into oblivion and I don't like that idea.

[SomePerson]

please keep OD, seriously.

1. I've posted a number of things here throughout the years that I would rather not suddenly have made public

2. We have relentlessly made fun of numerous OD outsiders

3. I think the revelation of a secret place that nobody had access to would alienate the community, everyone who is active but not in OD currently...


I see no harm in keeping OD as is, but I definitely agree we need a separate "Off Topic" forum to help build community. If you have to archive and close OD, so be it, but please don't make it public.

And TBH I don't rarely talk to any of you off this forum, even though I have a lot of your IM contacts..... :-/

[BillT17]

Also, I disagree with the use of "Up & Coming".



Can you say why? Where would we discuss up and coming games? :)

[CyberShadow]

Well, it is a bit odd that there's a whole section in the new layout dedicated for discussing games, and the "Up & Coming" section is outside it in the Team17 section.

[BillT17]

Team17

Announcements
Moderation (only visible to moderators)
Beta Forums (only visible if you are in a particular Beta test)

Community

Fan Frenzy (will have fan art, comps, clan discussions)
Open Discussion (private as is today)
Anything goes (to cover speculation, up and coming and any other threads, needs rules)

Game Chat & Support

Currently Supported Games (2007-Present)
Older Titles

Archive

(not deleting anything, just moving here)

[BillT17]

Well, it is a bit odd that there's a whole section in the new layout dedicated for discussing games, and the "Up & Coming" section is outside it in the Team17 section.

I can live with that, see updated list.

[bonz]

I have to agree with SomePerson.
Don't make OD public; If anything, lock and archive it and make it read-only for current OD members!



Another thing that I just remembered:
Would it be possible to enable more BBCode tags?

I'm thinking of some text formatting ones, for example strike-through, superscript, subscript, alignment and maybe some text color ones, if it's possible to limit it to a handful of colors.

Also, if it doesn't strain the servers to much, I'd like to see YouTube video embedding.
Anything goes
Call it (Almost) anything goes. :D

[CyberShadow]

Would it be possible to enable more BBCode tags?PLEASE NO.Also, if it doesn't strain the servers to much, rofl

[bonz]

PLEASE NO.rofl
What's wrong with superscript, subscript and strike through?

I'd gladly ditch BBcodes like [highlight] or [bright] for example, in exchange for the three mentioned above.
rofl
Well, we already have the [img] tag enabled, which allows loading external images.
I'm assuming that loading of external YouTube videos will behave the same.

[CyberShadow]

YouTube embedding is a huge jump away from some simple formatting options. I'd be vehemently against it, because my browser loading 20 Flash Player instances is not something I look forward to while browsing any forum.

My amusement from your statement comes from that embedding a YouTube video requires simply emitting some HTML and/or JavaScript, and has no measurable performance impact on the server. The browsers take the load.

We already have strike-through. Super-script and subscript are probably okay, but do remember that there are some people (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42682) who will use every formatting option that's available - simply because it's there.

[bonz]

because my browser loading 20 Flash Player instances
Oh, you're right, I didn't think that far.
We already have strike-through.
Oops, that was on another vBulletin forum then.
Super-script and subscript are probably okay
Those two are the most important in my opinion, to be able to properly type mathematical formulas and units.
but do remember that there are some people (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42682) who will use every formatting option that's available - simply because it's there.
Hmm, those are the formatting options that are available via shortcut buttons on top of the edit box.
He didn't use other available ones (strike-through, highlight, bright) just because he could and the use for superscript and subscript is rather limited, even for a notorious spammer.

Any new additions definitely shouldn't get a dedicated button.

[SupSuper]

Also, if it doesn't strain the servers to much, I'd like to see YouTube video embedding.
PLEASE NO.
Those two are the most important in my opinion, to be able to properly type mathematical formulas and units.
I'm sure that happens all the time around here. :p

[Alien King]

I'm sure that happens all the time around here. :p

It would if you guys learned to face your fears. Bloody cowards.


I'd gladly ditch BBcodes like [highlight] or [bright] for example, in exchange for the three mentioned above.

But without [bright] how do we mock those that use the default skin?

[thomasp]

Game Chat & Support

Currently Supported Games (2007-Present)
Older Titles


Just to clarify, will each game be in its own sub forum under one of the two categories above, or will we just have those two to cover absolutely everything, and have all threads posted in just two categories?

If it's the former, then I assume it'd look something like the W3D/WFUS/W4M forums on the main page. I'm not sure that'd be the best way, having loads of sub forums for each game. It might be better to have one Forum Cateogry called "Currently Supported Games" and then one called "Older Titles", instead of "Game Cat & Support"

So you'd have:

Currently Supported titles: Chat & Support
--> W2A (XBLA)
--> Worms Reloaded
--> Alien Breed
--> etc

Older Titles: Chat & Support
--> Worms 2
--> Worms 3D
--> Worms 4: Mayhem

(Not sure what category WA would go into...)


Instead of:

Games Chat & Support
--> Currently Supported Titles
--> --> W2A
--> --> WR
--> --> AB
--> Older Titles
--> --> W2
--> --> W3D
--> --> W4M

[KRD]

Definitely with you on that, Thomas. The fewer levels of sub-forums, the better.

I'm also in favour of keeping OD as it is, but giving the unwashed masses an off-topic forum of their own, something less strict than Online Orgy which also has a title/description that clearly explains what it's for; (Almost) Anything Goes sounds good to me, good idea there!

Anyhow, if this works out as intended and we're left with an active forum, that'll give us some more incentive to mingle with the crowds again, as well as make it easier for us to spot new OD potentials who might be interested in and suitable for the secret society proper. Any elitism left in here is firmly tongue-in-cheek, the way I see it, and does zero harm. It's been the most intelligent and entertaining part of the forum for years now and I don't believe the sheer secrecy of it should make anyone feel uncomfortable enough to want it axed off.

Likewise writing us off as bitter old farts just because we're not all active all the time strikes me as premature, especially immediately before, you know, Change. And with a bunch of games about to be (re)released.

[Muzer]

Just seeing what's going on.

Looks good, the new forum layout. I would agree with the ideas about keeping OD as it is but making Online Orgy less strict, and the ideas about the game-related forums.

BTW, is the WUM beta still open? I completely forgot about it until recently :p

[SupSuper]

Just seeing what's going on.

Looks good, the new forum layout. I would agree with the ideas about keeping OD as it is but making Online Orgy less strict, and the ideas about the game-related forums.

BTW, is the WUM beta still open? I completely forgot about it until recently :p
WUM is coming out Wednesday so you might as well not bother. :p

[Muzer]

WUM is coming out Wednesday so you might as well not bother. :p
Oh, lol - shortest beta test period I've ever seen :p

[BillT17]

We are going to roll out some of the changes to the forum hopefully this week, so the forum might be down while we do this. If anything needs changing or you are not happy about something then let's keep the discussion in OD, as we are going to keep that as is for now.

[Muzer]

We are going to roll out some of the changes to the forum hopefully this week, so the forum might be down while we do this. If anything needs changing or you are not happy about something then let's keep the discussion in OD, as we are going to keep that as is for now.

Noticed it's been done - remember to disallow posting in the archive section - otherwise I'm sure people will.


Also, possibly a subforum (in the Unsupported Games section) about old games from the Amiga era (ie Worms: The Director's Cut and earlier). People did occasionally ask/talk about these games (often in Games Discussion or Worms 2 or Worms Armageddon forums) so a proper place to do so would be nice. I'm not talking one forum per game - just one forum shared between all Amiga era.games.

[BillT17]

I'm going to keep it open for now just to see if i need to move anything back out of that section.

[Muzer]

Sorry, I edited my previous post but didn't notice you'd already posted. Just posting this to ensure you see my edit.




But generally, I think it looks good. Much neater and less overwhelming for beginners.

[SupSuper]

Why did some game forums get left in the Archive? Just curious about the criteria given there's both new/old games in the new sections so it seems kinda arbitrary.

Also some pickyness:

- Empty forums look kinda bad, specially on the front page. You should probably move the content of Fan Art > Fan Frenzy and Online Orgy > Anything Goes since they are barely active and will probably stay empty for a long while, unless you encourage some new stuff. Likewise, the new WUM and WCF forums could have the relevant topics from Speculation & Discussion.

- The game categories probably don't need to have "Chat & Support" written out again, it's already in the category. Also some quick links to specific game forums from the main page (eg. link the game names in the descriptions like the Worms 3D and Worms 4 forums did for subforums) might help those that are only interested in specific games.

- I agree with Muzer in having some general "catch all" forum for uncovered titles in Older Games or something.

- Some game forums should be renamed as they have kinda outgrown their original purpose. For example "Alien Breed: Evolution" is now used for all the new Alien Breed titles. "Worms 2: Armageddon (XBLA)" also has posts about the PS3 version.

Everything else is looking good. :) If you're gonna lock the Archive you might wanna set up some kind of "request thread" for people that might want still-used threads moved out back into the active forums.

[Muzer]

Yeah - probably call the extra subforum something like "Other Team17 games", and have the description something like "Older games and spin-offs".

Also, yeah, I find it a bit odd that Worms Open Warfare 2 has been left behind... surely that could be moved into the older titles section? Equally I would have expected Worms Blast to be left in the archive as that's more of a spin-off (and older) than WFUS.

StepS pointed out a typo in the description for Anything Goes.


I agree with having a request thread for moving stuff from the archive, and with the idea of links to the major games (I've seen vB forums where this is done inline - is that standard or an extension this forum has? In other words, the description would contain links to the forum in the text rather than having a list afterwards. See http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=27

[thomasp]

I echo the thoughts of SupSuper.

I'll try to flesh out some rules for the Anything Goes forum, so we don't just have a total spam-fest in there. Any suggestions of what should and shouldn't be allowed?

[SupSuper]

I'll try to flesh out some rules for the Anything Goes forum, so we don't just have a total spam-fest in there. Any suggestions of what should and shouldn't be allowed?
I'd say the traditional "no porn/warez/illegal/hax/flamewars/trolling/etc." and "keep it civil".

[thomasp]

One other suggestion, Bill: could we have links to all the main subforums under the respective headings (on the forum main page), like we had on the previous layout - will make for easier navigation

[BillT17]

I will see what I can get Volcane to do. :) Also I will be running some comps very soon and I plan to push our Forum more.

[BillT17]

Ok, Volcane has made some more changes, is that better? Feedback please.

[thomasp]

Ok, Volcane has made some more changes, is that better? Feedback please.
Much, cheers guys :D

[SupSuper]

Yeah much nicer. :)

[KRD]

Better, yup. Though for people who don't see this forum, that still only leaves five sections on the index, which is a little skimpy if you think about it. Even on my laptop screen, I can see them all without scrolling down any. Could someone screenshoot it at 1920×1200 or something? Retro Purple skin, of course.

Also, for me personally, being able to see whether there are any new posts in individual game sections just from looking at the index was quite a bit more intuitive, but I guess for that to come back, the number of games that get their own forums would have to be cut down further... otherwise it might look like the forum reorganisation didn't do much at all. :-/

[MtlAngelus]

Better, yup. Though for people who don't see this forum, that still only leaves five sections on the index, which is a little skimpy if you think about it. Even on my laptop screen, I can see them all without scrolling down any. Could someone screenshoot it at 1920×1200 or something? Retro Purple skin, of course.

Also, for me personally, being able to see whether there are any new posts in individual game sections just from looking at the index was quite a bit more intuitive, but I guess for that to come back, the number of games that get their own forums would have to be cut down further... otherwise it might look like the forum reorganisation didn't do much at all. :-/

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3397/huuuge.png

You asked for it. :p

[Akuryou13]

that's why I use Fluid. it auto-adjusts to fill in all that blank space. much better, imo.

[SomePerson]

I kinda like the simplicity. No reason to make it complex for the sake of complexity. Makes it easier for all the n00bs to find where to post ;)

[thomasp]

I wonder if it's worth altering the Game chat & support category so its actually two categories (based on what KRD said)? That way, you'll be able to see the newest thread in each games forum, rather than just the two main forums.

Something like this:

Team 17
Announcements

Community
OD
FF
AG

Currently Supported Titles
W2A
WR
AB
...

Older Titles
WA
W3D
W2
...

Archive
Archive


To me that makes the games forums (which, lets face it, is the main focus of the forum) stand out much better than they do now. At the moment, the main focus appears to be on the community stuff, like FF and AG.

[bonz]

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3397/huuuge.png

You asked for it. :p
You have yourself on your forum contacts list? :D

[Muzer]

What font is that? It seems different to normal somehow, more Wormy.

[CyberShadow]

What font is that? It seems different to normal somehow, more Wormy.
If you're talking about MtlAngelus' screenshot - it's a Mac.

[Muzer]

If you're talking about MtlAngelus' screenshot - it's a Mac.

Hmm, odd - it reminds me a lot of the W3D font.

[MtlAngelus]

You have yourself on your forum contacts list? :D

Yup. :cool:

[KRD]

Yeah, I'm with Thomas again. Thanks for going through the trouble of composing the actual layout.

Apart from making individual game forums more visible, that would also alleviate the problem of some forums (the WWP, W3D and W4M ones, for example) having subforums of their own, which means that as things are right now, it takes three clicks from the index to be able to actually see the topic listing in them. I've been looking at these forums for like a decade and I still get a little confused sometimes, heh. It's not a huge deal, but since there's only ever going to be more games to follow, it might make sense to keep things as simple as possible.

[Lex]

I would like to see all the forums on one page again. The current "hidden" mode isn't good. I scan the main page for which specific forums have new posts and as it is now, my method doesn't work properly.

Edit: Also, why is Worms Armageddon not in "Currently Supported Titles"? It fits that category unless Team17 has officially ditched it entirely.

Edit: Also, "Currently Supported titles" has inconsistent capitalization.

[SupSuper]

I've just gotten used to using the New Posts (http://forum.team17.co.uk/search.php?do=getnew) option, it's easier to ignore the forums I don't care about from there.

[Xinos]

I rage a bit when I hit the "last page" button and realize that there were new posts on the previous page as well.

[BetongÅsna]

What a nice surprise to come back to a lovely, slimmed-down front page! I'm far more likely to actually delve into the forum proper now. Good show, chaps.

[BillT17]

When I get chance to catch breath, I will have another look, just wanted to give it a while as is to see how it was recieved. Probably get back to it after Crazy Golf has been released later this month.

[Plutonic]

Hmmm, well so far I must say... I really don't like it.
There's no way of seeing at a glace if the subforum you are interested in has new posts, and I keep clicking worms 2: armageddon instead of the WA forum.

[thomasp]

I'm inclined to agree with Plutonic - the two categories in "Games Chat & Support" should be promoted into their own categories (and the 'games chat & support' category done away with), and probably put above "Community" as well, since they're the main focus of the forum!

[Lex]

Yeah, as I said in an above post, I agree with that position.

[Pooka]

To be honest, I don't see what's wrong with the new layout. You can get to the subfora easily enough (especially as they're all hyperlinked below the main fora titles anyway), and I always thought the Team17 Forum looked too cluttered to begin with. This looks much easier, less daunting and more siplified, which is what a forum should be.

And OD is near the top, which is good, as that saves precious seconds scrolling down the page to find it.

[Squirminator2k]

I agree with Pooka.

[Lex]

The new format has cut down on my reading of these forums significantly. Thinking back on what happened when I read T17 forums often before the change, I'm almost-certainly not missing much. The signal-to-noise ratio as very low at that time.