To background or not to background...

[hundreds]

Hey guys, and Cybershadow,

So I've been kicking around the idea of putting custom background layers in all of MnP's maps for a week or so. The biggest issue, of course, is time - and hearing my wonderful wife become more and more sure that I have been completely taken over by Worms.

Anyway, aside from that, one of the reasons I WOULD think seriously about doing this is if WA has plans to support this. I THINK WA 4 does, but I was wondering just how it would be implemented by the mapper, that way I can maybe NOT have to do this all over again when WA 4 arrives...

MnP is definitely supporting both Worms Reloaded and Worms Armageddon, but somehow I feel WA is going have more longevity of the two. Maybe... So it's important to me to consider how I will be supporting it in the near future (WA 4 is supposed to be released in October right?).

...

I was gonna put a ;) here but actually I'm thinking :( is more appropriate.

[CyberShadow]

The plan for map backgrounds in W:A 4 was to allow a map to have several layers, including the background.

One important distinction to how WR seems to do backgrounds, is that if you destroy a bit of the map, you'll still see the background behind it, because it is a separate layer (WR uses alpha to divide a single image into soil/background/transparent regions). You'll also be able to specify the distance from the land layer, for a parallax effect.

W:A 4 is definitely not coming this October... there's a lot of work to be done, we hope it to be completed some time next year. You could look forward to the release of the 3.6.30.0 Beta update around October, but I wouldn't be sure about anything in these uncertain times.

[hundreds]

Yeah I knew it wasn't coming in Oct - I just like to stir the pot. So if I get you correctly, the way backgrounds will be done in WA will NOT rely on alpha channels at all. Does this mean that our maps may be comprised of multiple PNG files? One or more for the background, and one for the land?

[CyberShadow]

Yep! Each layer would be represented by its own image. I think this allows much greater flexibility than WR's solution.

[GreeN]

Amen! :D

[hundreds]

Oh very much so. Well that about decides it for me. I've decided I am going to be RE-RE-RE-RE?-RE-releasing them all again after the backgrounds have been added.

Just so I don't go absolutely insane, I'm going to limit myself to 2 rooms per day and maintain a strict rule that the backgrounds do not get too detailed (they really shouldn't be so as to minimize confusion of which layer is what).

At that rate, maybe the maps will be ready for WA 4.0 on release. :)

[hundreds]

OK so here are the first couple of rooms in Family Feud. This is kind of how I am planning to undertake this. I think a BIG mistake a lot of people are making with backgrounds in WR is that they are putting in things that actually might be mistaken for foreground objects.

Our method is to make sure that ANY objects that are in the background would stand out as OBVIOUSLY in the background - like windows, paintings, lighting, etc.

Quick question for Cybershadow: with this parallax feature wayyyyy in the future... would it be possible to have more than one layer. Eg. One for interior walls (perhaps set at a VERY close distance from the land) and maybe a couple in the background (to create our own distance backgrounds)?

BTW, I'm annoyed that all this work I am doing for Family Feud and the rest of the MnP levels with backgrounds will really only benefit the WR community for the time being. This thread should probably be placed in that forum. Yeah... I'm not doin it.

[CyberShadow]

Quick question for Cybershadow: with this parallax feature wayyyyy in the future... would it be possible to have more than one layer. Eg. One for interior walls (perhaps set at a VERY close distance from the land) and maybe a couple in the background (to create our own distance backgrounds)?Sure.This thread should probably be placed in that forum. I could move it there if you like.

[hundreds]

You know, I think maybe it would be more on target over there. But don't forget to drop once in a while! :) Oh yeah, just thought I would mention, I already broke my two-room limit for today.

Man I wish this wasn't possible.

[MtlAngelus]

I think the real shame is not many people seem to be playing W:R right now, and it's really hard to set up games let alone bother importing maps, etc. Just my two cents. :-/

[hundreds]

OK, another day - another couple rooms. Thinking about getting some bricks to add to some of the interior walls in the "unfinished" rooms like the storage area.

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Feud_bg_1.jpg

[Thurbo]

I think this foreground/background mix up will be a big problem. For example, I'd expect the curtains in the room you last overworked to belong to the background if I didn't know the map :confused:

[vartaxe]

well it looks good but i'm not sure how much player friendly it is... it's very dificult to know whats the background... maybe an option would be if team17 implement some kind of map tweaking options like the player choose if he will actually see that background or not... or maybe even a brightness/contrast slider to adjust to our liking would be better.

[CakeDoer]

It'd be easy to see what's a background and what's not unless it is very detailed, IMO. Especially since the background is slightly blurred.

[hundreds]

It'd be easy to see what's a background and what's not unless it is very detailed, IMO. Especially since the background is slightly blurred.

Right on the money CakeDoer. For everyone else, look at the actual backgrounds and notice that the ONLY things in the background are things that BELONG in the background.

And Thurbo, funny you should mention those curtains. Actually they (along with that entire wall with the double doors) are getting moved to the background, so yeah, you've assumed correctly. :) There are a few other MnP maps that will be getting similar treatment. Global Warming comes to mind, with it's single door facing outward on every floor of the building.

EDIT: I just noticed Thurbo said "overworked". Funny funny.

[bloopy]

I think a BIG mistake a lot of people are making with backgrounds in WR is that they are putting in things that actually might be mistaken for foreground objects.
Yeah, I can imagine how much potential there is to make a really confusing map. The backgrounds in your images are hard enough to perceive. Yesterday I threw a grenade at an object right in front of my worm on a random map because I was tired and hadn't noticed it wasn't part of the background. :p

[hundreds]

Most of the ones I have seen are certainly pretty confusing. The good thing is, though, that even with those maps, if you REALLY like the map, then you'll get used to what's what.

Even still, you won't find anything that is overly complicated or misleading in our maps when we're through. You shouldn't have to wonder if you have to jump over something or not when you got 15 seconds on the clock and the ship is sinking fast.

[hundreds]

Well...

I'm a little discouraged. This backgrounding thing may have to be put off for an indefinite amount of time. The reason is two-fold:

1. There is a bug in the game that seems to cause all soil (and graphics using the 253 value) to disappear after an indeterminate amount of time. This pretty much makes backgrounds in maps almost useless. Until this bug gets fixed, there really isn't any reason to do it.

2. It seems that it's a bit more difficult than I initially thought to make sure the background doesn't get confused with the foreground. I tested it a couple times and even I felt a little cross-eyed. It certainly wasn't what I was hoping for and coupled with the above mentioned bug, my interest in this is dimming. Also, the way WR handles the terrain after it has been destroyed only adds to the confusion.

It's not a complete loss as now I have more time to work on the next MnP map (Midnight Oil); just don't expect any MnP maps with backgrounds any time soon. :(

[Thurbo]

1. There is a bug in the game that seems to cause all soil (and graphics using the 253 value) to disappear after an indeterminate amount of time. This pretty much makes backgrounds in maps almost useless. Until this bug gets fixed, there really isn't any reason to do it.

Happens only if you play on-line, though. To me, at least.

[SupSuper]

I think the only way for backgrounds to not be confusing is if there's a *major* brightness difference between background and foreground, much like terrain vs soil (and even that one can throw you off sometimes).

[hundreds]

It really CAN throw you off... I think if it was destroyed alongside the foreground it would work better. I know you do that w/ a HH grenade but, those are kinda rare. After playing for a while, it's tough to know what is what.