MnP Map Idea - Japanese Facing Dojos

[hundreds]

Well, I think I just made my decision for our next map.

I have attached a teaser screenshot. I weighed it in the balance and decided I wanted to do something more... light-hearted. I will probably revisit middle earth when the time is right. Just like Gandalf. ;)

Let's use this thread to discuss concepts, ideas, encouragment, etc. regarding the new work-in-progress.

Couple things:

1. I have decided to design each and every tree from the leaf up, so-to-speak. After trying a cartoony look for a cherry tree, I found it VERY fake looking. So I zoomed all the way in and started making a single cherry blossom. A few hundred copy and pastes later and you have what you see in the screenshot.

2. I will be needing a title for this map. If you want to suggest one, feel free. But please don't get upset if I don't use yours, or even any of the ones suggested. I'm like George Lucas. I really find meaning in my Titles, no matter how dumb they are. :)

[Roboslob]

That looks great, realy like the dirt. Think there should be a good distance between the dojos, perhaps a small village between. That could be the reason for the opposition, influence/control over the village. Also a village would provide lots of cover and defence, which I would enjoy. You could give the dojos unrealistic height just to signify their importance. As for a title, I can't think of anything good, but you could rip off the name of a kung-fu movie, like "Cruching Worm, Hidden Landmine", but I'm sure someone could come up with better.

[hundreds]

Thanks Robo,

I will say one thing about the distance: Since the worms will be confined to their respective Dojos, limited by a flag for each team, the distance can't be too great since you need to be able to get a bazooka or grenade over to the other "fort".

[bonz]

Are you going to make the maps symmetrical?
Asymmetric maps would be nicer to look at, but it'll take much more playtesting to see that both sides have equal preconditions, especially in regards of walking distance, heights and cover options.

[hundreds]

Well... it's against my way of life to make an symetrical worms map. So, it will definately be different on each side. But no worries. It will be quite even. Where one side will seem to have an advantage, the other will as well. The Dojos themselves will be calculated dimensions to achieve that effect.

[raffie]

http://users.telenet.be/warpmedia/nihonworm.gif
w00t Japanese themed maps: awesome, can't wait :)

[hundreds]

Thanks Raff,

By the way, nice artwork on your site.

Here is another shot of the WIP for Dojos.

[raffie]

Thanks^^

And again, looking forward to this map!

[Roboslob]

I doubt you've tried, but that first cherry tree doesn't look backflipable on the left, so would have to shotie through. Of course I know all of that will change when I comes time to play test (unless you want it to be shotie way). BTW, I realy like the colour in those teasers, cherry tree FTW.

[hundreds]

The way I foresee this map working is this: It will start out fort-style, with each team spawning in their own dojo - the boundaries of which will be established by a Japanese war flag at the foot of each dojo. After play commences, teams are free to leave the fort (dojo) if they choose to try their positions in the garden (presumably for a closer shot).

There will be NO ninja ropes or teleports or any other kind of item that would allow them ease of travel. Therefore, there will certainly be a few "shottie only" obstacles along the way, thereby exposing any worm that decides to risk it by getting in for a closeup. Of course, if you do manage to traverse the garden with its mines and the like with no ropes or whatever, it can only be assumed that you COULD get some easier kills. Of course, the garden is rather low lying and could likely be made impassable by a couple well placed grenades or bazookas, leaving the enemies to battle it out in strictly old forts methods. Additionally, there is a bridge that could be hit pretty hard by a good bazooka shot that may render the path useless right away. And as a final nail in the coffin, I am tinkering with the idea of making the level sink (slowly of course) after a certain amount of time to make the garden completely useless and to be able to watch terrified ninjas and samurais scampering up to the top (probably exposed) portions of the dojo.

I have done a few more pieces of work on the garden, but I will save the teasers for now. Wouldn't want anyone to get bored... yet.

[hundreds]

Hey guys, been a bit out of touch recently. Sorry for the lack of updates, but it seems like you all survived OK... ;)

Anyway, here is a recent teaser shot of Dojos (still has no real name).

[Roboslob]

that is very nice

[e30fanat]

that is very nice

+1
Very nice map made, I like it! Good Job :)
And... where can download that map?

[MihaiS]

And... where can download that map?

It's not ready yet. But I guess http://www.mnpp.net/ would be the place.

[bonz]

Hey guys, been a bit out of touch recently. Sorry for the lack of updates, but it seems like you all survived OK... ;)

Anyway, here is a recent teaser shot of Dojos (still has no real name).
Very nice.
I like that you use those distinctive Japanese standards as the flags.

A question though, how big are the worms in comparison to that standard?
It could get quite hard to destroy that flag.

Usually, one stick of dynamite should be able to wholly destroy the flag (in a one-flag CTF, not multi-flag AvsA) in one go, so that the single dynamite in player's/team's arsenal will be a precious and dreaded close-combat weapon, that must not be wasted in skirmish, but needs to be carried behind enemy lines for maximum damage.

[Roboslob]

Very nice.
A question though, how big are the worms in comparison to that standard?


Judging by the early screenshots, a worm is about half the hight of the bridge post, based on that (just because of the height of the flag), a single dynamite could not destroy that flag.

[bonz]

Judging by the early screenshots, a worm is about half the hight of the bridge post, based on that (just because of the height of the flag), a single dynamite could not destroy that flag.
Hmm.
That could mean in a average CTF game, worms will be dead and the game over before anyone reaches the flag.
And I guess by the sheer size of recent MnP maps that the old baseball-bat-your-ally-to-the-flag trick will be futile.

[hundreds]

Funny. I guess since I have never played a CTF game before on Worms I didn't even know about the old baseball trick. :)

Anyway, this particular map, as was commented on, is not quite done. I would say I am about half-way finished with the central garden. But the garden is the simplest part. The Dojos will be 3 stories each and with many compartments.

I feel I should clarify, that this map is being designed (at least initially) as a Forts game type. I do not doubt that any and ALL MnP maps released as Forts maps will also be rereleased as CTF (since someone kindly told me how CTF works in worms - thank you!) since the two types are so easily interchangeable. In Dojos - Forts, the two flags serve a very unique purpose. They make it so that a worm entering the garden MUST use a weapon to break that first barrier (the flag). This may be a shotgun a baseball trick, or whatever, but a turn WILL be used to get into the no-man's land. Because contrary to typical Worms Forts maps, in ours worms WILL be allowed to cross over into enemy territory. The garden will be uniquely balanced to provde nearly identical requirements for each team that may traverse it. And one of those requirements will be that first flag scaling, since jumping (or walking) up one will not be possible.

As a side note, you probablt won't notice that the garden is "balanced" by looking at it. That would ruin the look and feel. And as part of MnP, I couldn't have it any other way.

The CTF for this map will have the flags placed neatly behind enemy lines so they can be protected, and will likely see an increase in worms starting HP, to ensure that a flag CAN actually be destroyed. ;)

Thanks everyone.

I won't be able to do anymore with Dojos for a couple days so sit tight and more updates will be bound to come.

[SithlordDK]

Any News??

[hundreds]

Thanks for checking up Sith.

There is news. As you might have guessed, I had to take a bit of a vacation from Worms level design. I was in 3 weddings - all pretty much back-to-back. On top of that, my kid is starting to get to "that age". So there has been a learning curve for all 3 of us (my wife included). Therefore that means less time to mess around on my computer.

Finally, a rather large project has recently come up for me. It could be a money-maker. My friends and I (non-MnP crew) have begun development on a game that will be primarily designed for the iPhone and maybe later will be ported to both the XBOX Live Marketplace and/or the Sony Playstation 3 Store. It is a pretty extensive job that will either be profitable, or not profitable at all (ie. just for fun).

This leaves two bits of info:

1. Once I get into the full swing for my part in this process (which is I believe ALL OF THE GRAPHICS in their entirety), I will probably be working on that full time for a few weeks (or months).

2. Facing Dojos, along with all of the other "coming soon" MnP levels WILL NOT, I repeat WILL NOT be given up on. I will personally see to that. It just might be delayed a bit longer.

I will say that the level, as it is now, has nearly an entire garden completed and all that is left are both of the dojos. I have drawn up some schematics that I believe will keep this level as balanced as possible, but have yet to put them in digital format (draw 'em in Fireworks). But all things considered, rest assured that Dojos will shine. It just might take a bit longer than I expected.

Who knows, I might nail down this game character art and be able to keep the programmers at bay for a while, leaving me time to finish up our little adventure in Japan.

Thanks again,

[bonz]

Don't hurry, take your time!

Just make sure you slip in some eastereggs from your Worms maps into the graphics of your new game project. If you're doing something else than character art, that is.
:)

P.S.: I suppose you can't talk about the game or release any info about, but I'm still interested in what it'll be. (Not that I own an iPhone, Xbox or PS3.)

[Muzer]

(Not that I own an iPhone, Xbox or PS3.)
Which one? :p

[bonz]

Which one? :p
None of them.

[Muzer]

Ah, sorry, I misread "not" as "note". My bad.

[hundreds]

Well I probably shouldn't reveal anything yet. Seeing as how we want to limit our competition. The iPhone game design market is pretty ruthless. And when I said that I was doing ALL the graphics, I meant all of them, including the background and foreground for each level. And depending on how we go (style-wise) for the entire game, I might actually be using a lot of the various pieces from our levels (or atleast MY levels) since Clogz isn't working on this game and I won't be stealing any of his stuff.

[Muzer]

Hehe, that sounds awesome! Be sure to post here when it's released for those of us without an i{Phone,Pod Touch}.

[hundreds]

Yah I sure will. I wouldn't mind even letting you guys in on a few things. Afterall, we WILL need publicity. ;)

But I don't know if this is the venue for it since it is rather "off topic".

We shall see.

[Vader]

That's really good news. Good luck! :)

[hundreds]

Thanks Vader!

On another note, last night I was playing worms for the first time in a month or so with a buddy of mine. We were playing Last Resort (http://www.mnpp.net) and a thought occured to me that I am surprised I had not considered before:

Why have I never released a Pirates vs. West India Company map? I had begun some work on a One-Eyed Willy map a while back and after putting a pretty good amount of the ship together, I either lost interest in it, or more likely, I dreaded having to design the cave ceilings and walls around it.

Well, we were flinging bazookas and grenades at each other, huddling in our little motor boats and what not, when I realized that a "forts style" Pirates vs East India Company would be quite fun. Mostly Bazookas and Petrols would help to establish a great scheme where your ships are slowly beaten to pieces! Has anyone seen one like this done before (this theme)?

I have a pirate ship that would probably just love being raised from the dead. Bits of it were taken to produce the small pirate-like float on Last Resort.

Of course, all this contemplation only proves that MnP isn't done with Worms yet! :)

[bonz]

Has anyone seen one like this done before (this theme)?
Yes, one of the mission maps that come with the game contains two pirate ships. They are very close together though.
Also, an old W1:R map: http://wmdb.org/2773

You should probably make a very wide map so you have to fire your bazooka across 2-3 screens (of standard map size width).
Name it Arrrgh! A

Maybe then later release a map where the ships are closer and grappling hooks and ropes between them so you can actually board the enemy ship.
Name it Arrrgh! B!

Then a third map where the ships are severely damaged (dismasted, damaged, ripped sails,...) and starting to sink, with longboats in the waters nearby.
Name it Arrrgh! C!


ARRRGH!
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4531/piratesmileycaptainwink.gif

[doben]

nice idea, bonz :D

[Plasma]

You should probably make a very wide map so you have to fire your bazooka across 2-3 screens (of standard map size width).
Name it Arrrgh! A
I presume that by the name, you're referring to how fustrated the player gets trying to hit their opponent on it?

:P

[hundreds]

Bonz, I love how you have totally adopted the MnP mentality for mapping schemes - the A, B and C - which leads to more thematic settings. Kudos!

Ha! I actually said: "Kudos".

However, as much as I would love to do a series of maps, like Titanic A - E (or as part of the Next Gen series, Titanic B & D), I am just too afraid of these maps taking years to come out. As it is, several of the maps on mnpp.net that are labeled "Coming Soon" should be relabeled "Coming Someday". Especially now since I have determined that this Pirates map is a must-be-created. I am slated this one to follow Dojos. Therefore, I am only going to commit to one version of this - sorry Bonz (and Clogz - he suggested basically the same thing).

The one version of this map could be brainstormed a bit with you guys, but I am going to open a new thread (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?p=692166#post692166) to discuss it, so as not to stray too far from the Dojos topic in this thread.

See ya there!

[bonz]

Bonz, I love how you have totally adopted the MnP mentality for mapping schemes - the A, B and C - which leads to more thematic settings. Kudos!
Years ago when I first stumbled across the four classic colour maps, I was seriously impressed and wished that more of those maps could be made. I always thought MnP was a long dead and forgotten clan/author from the W2 or early WA era that couldn't experience online myself.
When I then saw the monochrome Titanic series, I wished that I could have taken part in the community back then even more.
I am just too afraid of these maps taking years to come out. As it is, several of the maps on mnpp.net that are labeled "Coming Soon" should be relabeled "Coming Someday".
Well, just label them "Coming when it's done" or "Coming when Duke 4ever is done" and you're good to go. :D
Seriously, I have no problem if the maps take months or years to come. It's not like there is some deadline by which they have to be done.
Also, this way we will always get supplied with fresh maps of top quality.

[Roboslob]

"Coming when Duke 4ever is done"
If he labled it that, then everyone might assume that the map is about to come out, but then become very disapointed when it seems to vanish. Then, years later, their hopes will be raised when a small teaser, that hardley shows anything, arises and again any news will cease. Better to stick with "Coming when finished", for the people's sake.
Bits of it were taken to produce the small pirate-like float on Last Resort.
I loved that thing, it was so funny, and it reminded me of this:

[Muzer]

"Coming when Duke 4ever is done"
Sersiously, if/when that game is actually released, the internet will break because of the flood of new releases from 10000 other projects that have that label :p

[hundreds]

GROUP BRAINSTORMING SESSION TIME!!!!

OK folks! Gather up your brain stem collection for a fun little exercise where YOU could be the master mind behind an up and coming MnP Worms Armageddon map!

I tried to make the above sound as corny as possible.

Seriously though, I have restarted work on Dojos and have quickly come to the conclusion that these gardens could be literally packed with details. That said, I have a roughly complete left-hand-side posted here for your previewing, attached to a barely started right-hand-side posted here for your suggestions. Take a look at what I have so far, think about it for a moment, and then give me some awesome suggestions as to what should be included on the right side, and/or what should be added to the left side. Remember, I am going for "artistic" symmetry so both sides need to be balanced in that respect. If I can get the entired garden done in the next week or so, I can finally begin work on the buildings themselves.

And if you could provide, perhaps, links to other websites with photo or graphic content that could be incorporated into the map, that would be great too.

Here is the image link since it is too big for this forum:

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/dojo_sample1.jpg

Have fun guys.

Thanks,

[Roboslob]

Well I don't feel very creative right now, so all I could come up with is a fountain just past the right most tree. It could be small to balance just the grey thing on the left, or large to balance said thingy and shrub.

[Vader]

Well, my first instinct is to say: more ninja references!

Here's "ninja" written in kanji:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Ninja-kanji.svg (*.svg doesn't work with img tags)

Also, have a couple of these Japanese lantern things hanging over for some ninja rope action. They could be thin enough to not provide cover for very long (although I suspect the scheme will omit airstrikes and such anyway):
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/49/111961754_c08de80817.jpg

A zen garden, or perhaps just some rakes standing propped against some rocks:
http://www.gaialandscapedesignbackgrounds.net/landscape-design-background-zen-garden-Kyushu-Japan-e-chan.jpg (too big to embed)

Would it cause too much offence to have some Korean soldiers' skeletons buried in the ground? I'm not posting an image of that, but it's an idea.

Here, have some CGI dojo interior design. Most interesting to my eye are the bowls and chopsticks, but the sparring post things at the back would also be a welcome inclusion:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z5ltdcb_9X0/SLJbIodFaEI/AAAAAAAAAO0/odiRxcKKj1Q/s320/Japanese_Dojo_by_KageXeo.jpg

Oh, and have a couple of dorodango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorodango):
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-UK%3Aofficial&um=1&sa=3&q=dorodango&btnG=Search+images

That's all I can think of right now (I've not been up for long) so if I think of more I'll add it to the thread. :)

[CyberShadow]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Ninja-kanji.svg (*.svg doesn't work with img tags)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Ninja-kanji.svg/500px-Ninja-kanji.svg.png

[Vader]

Oh, I missed the "other versions" link (or something).

Cheers mate :)

edit: Oh, I see what you did. Nice. Anyway, yeah, cheers.

[bonz]

If you have the game Ninja Reflex (http://ninjareflex.com/) could give you a lot of ideas. The PC version is available on Steam, including a free demo.
Try the demo or have a look at some screenshots and videos and you'll see a lot of Japanese interior and exterior architecture, ninja/samurai stuff and also some Japanese mysticism references.

In the game No One Lives Forever 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_One_Lives_Forever_2) the levels of the first chapter play in a 1960ish Japanese village of a ninja clan with even more interior/exterior architecture and details.
There's a single player demo available, but I'm not sure if you get to play those levels.

[hundreds]

Thanks guys for your posts so far!

I am definitely using that symbol for "Ninja" on the flag for the right-hand side. The flag on the left is the symbol for "Samurai" (and includes a nice little "M" for the Meat Men - my team). Accompanying "Ninja" will also be a "V" for The Veggie Men - Clogz team. Additionally, Cyr42 is/has been drawing up two worms for me (carved into stone) - one of them a Samurai and the other a Ninja. They will serve as the headstones for each of the Dojos.

I like the idea of the fountain, but as MnP never designs levels with objects that should be moving (since we can't animate in teh current build of W:A - hint, hint), then a fountain would by rights be out of place. However, another stone structure would be welcome, even if it turns out to be a dried up fountain or something along those lines.

I am most certainly going to try and represent a gravel/rock garden on the right. The small rakes are a real nice touch and one that I had not personally thought of (this is why I ask you guys!). Consider it done. The only thing is that the gravel will have to be done just right to get the idea across that it is not simply a bunch of empty space.

Japanese lanterns will be in this level - mostly at the front step of each Dojo. I may decide to place a few in the garden, but I will leave that possibility for when the gardens are just about complete.

I will most likely place another small "building" on the right to mimick the accessibility of the left-hand side. Not sure what type of building yet. Any ideas?

I played NOLF 2 a long time ago and yeah those were some nice levels. I also appreciated the suggestions regarding some of the furniture for the interiors.

But at the moment, I am really concentrating on perfecting the middle ground areas. Those Dojos are going to be a whole other mess to deal with - architecture, room sizes and defense/offense points, interior graphics, etc. When I get to that, we will need to change the direction of our brainstorming to that. For now, keep on sending in those screenshots of exterior Japanese/Chinese gardens. I really want this garden to feel peaceful, to help emphasize teh irony of the Bazookas flying overhead.

Thanks guys (and gals?),

[hundreds]

Whoa! Progress has been made on Facing Dojos. Nothing like no news for almost a year!

1. It has a name - "Feud"

2. Here is a new screenshot of the garden in the pre-obsessive phase (the obsessive phase is usually one of the last phases where all sorts of useless details are added because I'm such a stinking completionist!).

So far...

- added a rock garden with sculptures
- incorporated the kanji characters for "ninja" and japanese word for "samurai" into two worm-like statues and flags to represent each side (thanks CyberShadow for the suggestion in an earlier post and my buddy josh for those statues).
- adjusted the large bonsai-like tree to create the proper balance
- created a shrine on each end of the garden
- added more stinking flowers
- added other types of grasses
- made that bonsai-type tree blossom...
- reworked some light sourcing for the shrines
- finished both flags

Basically, I am at the point where the Dojos construction must take place. Oh boy..... But the good news is I have both Clogz and Cyr42 on the project. Clogz is working on the dining / cook area and the variety of food and food-related items and utensils. He's also working on some nice clean rice paper dividers and other pieces of art for the interior. Cyr42 is tearing up on some weapon racks and dummies to practice on. He is also going to be getting the pot of ease finished sometime (hopefully) this week.

Now all I have to do is start throwing up some walls...

Hope you enjoy the screenshot.

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Dojo.jpg

[lDarKl]

Long time no read hundreds, been busy eh?
That preview looks awesome, this one is gonna make an excellent Fort.map.

[raffie]

Thats starting to look pretty damn well smashing!

[Gnork]

walls? leave it like this, its bng, right? :p

[bonz]

walls? leave it like this, its bng, right? :p
No, CTF .

[hundreds]

Well, it's not really CTF (unless I am missing something here...), and it's not really BNG because I intend to give you more weapons than just those two. The weapons, as with all mnp levels, will certianly be limited. It's a choose-your-spawn-points and hunker down fort style map.

But thanks guys! Yah I have had a hard time finding free time the last many months or so. I hope the progress I made on this yesterday will help me make further progress in the next week or so. I hope to start getting some interior details in from the other mnp guys pretty soon.

But yah - walls - two huge dojos. I have a vision of what I want them to look like in my head and it makes me nervous!!

I'll post some more updates later this week I hope. I am going to sketch out (on paper) the general layout of the dojos and show you guys to get you input.

Thanks!

[Lex]

You have to admit that with those flags at each end, it sure looks like a CTF map.

It looks pretty awesome.

[bonz]

You have to admit that with those flags at each end, it sure looks like a CTF map.
And it most certainly can be used as one.

That is, if this preview is scaled down.
If those worm statues are of the same size as a worm, then it might not be suitable.

[hundreds]

The preview screen is actual size. Are the flags too big for CTF?

EDIT: Oh I see what you are asking. The statues are actually larger than a worm. Next screenshot will have a worm in there for scale. Also, I suppose that once this is done, I could release two versions of it - one Fort and one CTF. The flags as you see them now are actually stationed in FRONT of the 3 story dojos. So, for the CTF, I'm guessing I would place them inside or in a more well shielded place. For this map, I created the flags actually to serve the purpose of placing a single non-jumpable obstacle in front of the garden so that any worms attempting to infiltrate the other fort will have to do so in a few steps.

[Dbuhos]

Oh lawds, that's some nice pixel work.
I love how the maps looks, just...awesome !


o7 Looking forward for the finished map :)

[hundreds]

Well thanks Dbuhos!

I'm looking forward to is as well! I hope you have had a chance to check out some of our other maps.

Oh get this: My wife actually made a map idea recommendation the other day (huge progress in her accepting my obsession). She wants to see a level based on a bunch of stilt houses on the water. Who knows? Maybe it'll happen!

Anyway, I got a few hours in tonight working on the dojos themselves... I really hate showing these step-by-steps since artwork always looks crappy while in production, but I figure if you guys see some more previews, then you might be able to make some helpful suggestions, right? So here is another shot. I am starting to flesh out those horrible dojos. One step at a time I guess... Also place a few worms in so you can see the proportions. Sorry for such a huge file - it will only get bigger though...

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Dojo2.jpg

[bonz]

Are there actually multi-storey buildings in the traditional Japanese architecture?
AFAIR, I've only seen bungalow-type buildings with only a ground floor, what with all those stereotypical flimsy paper walls. :)
The flags as you see them now are actually stationed in FRONT of the 3 story dojos. So, for the CTF, I'm guessing I would place them inside or in a more well shielded place.
They would best be placed at the far left and far right ends of the map for the enemy to travel the maximum distance to the flag. Baseball bats and low gravity can already reduce that drastically.

Shielding the flag inside a building is always a good idea.
Perhaps with an open but dangerous access from below, which can lead to a watery death.

Something else:
How come that in CTF games the wind direction always changes each turn, but always in favour of the defending team, i.e. denying easy bazooka shots with the wind around the building to the flag?
Can that be set in the options somewhere?

[hundreds]

Are there actually multi-storey buildings in the traditional Japanese architecture?

You know, that's a good point, and one that I began to notice myself as I browsed the web for some inspiration. Even so, it's gonna have to be multi-storied to make it worth calling it a "fort", so I have decided to just ignore that little bit of realism, opting to consider the dojo to be more of a castle-like structure from feudal Japan.

And yah, the flag can be placed anywhere for CTF once it's done. I am actually going to be placing a chamber of ease in a basement section of each structure, so that might be a good place to tuck it away.

[raffie]

Lol no worries mates, Japanese castles - or forts - were always multiple stories high even back before the middle-ages. And they were always made from wood ;)

[hundreds]

Rock on Raffie.

Speaking of multi-leveled, here is another (smaller) screenshot of the castle-fort-dojo-thing:

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Dojo3.jpg

A prize goes to the first person who catches my typo!

[SgtFusion]

It says "Higest Point" when it should say "Highest Point"! I win!

[GreeN]

Maybe he misspelt "Digest", as a metaphore for a point where any incoming worms shall be decimated

..Also, the map's looking great!

[hundreds]

HahA! Dang SgtFusion! Next time I will hide my mistakes more sneakily.

Now, as far as the Digest Point is considered, there will probably be two tower-like objects up there, as well as a line of Japanese lanterns to make it look nice and festive!

Thanks GreeN!

[Melon]

Something else:
How come that in CTF games the wind direction always changes each turn, but always in favour of the defending team, i.e. denying easy bazooka shots with the wind around the building to the flag?
Can that be set in the options somewhere?
http://worms2d.info/Wind

The wind in WA is biased towards blowing to the centre of the map in relation to the position of the worm who is selected at the start of the turn. So a worm that is over to the extreme right of the map is considerably more likely to have the wind blow to the left.

Why? Well, I don't know for sure, but I believe it's designed to make the bazooka more useful by making it so that the wind is usually more likely to be pointing in the direction you want (consider a worm stuck on the extreme right of an island map at the bottom of a cliff, he's never going to want the wind to be pointing out into the ocean on his turn).

[hundreds]

Thanks for clearing that up. And I am guessing that there still may be times when you are batting against the wind no matter where you are?

[GreeN]

And I am guessing that there still may be times when you are batting against the wind no matter where you are?

BnG would be very boring if it didn't!

[bonz]

I think you actually meant "HUGEST POINT", slipping from the U to the I button on your keyboard. ;)

What's the long vent on the far left?
If you're gonna hide the flag down there and a worm fits through it, a CTF game might be over quite soon, with everyone bypassing all the other "huge points" of your castle. :D

[hundreds]

That long vent will serve as a chimney for the kitchen on the bottom floor. Accessing the vent from the top will probably not happen - atleast not with the mnp settings that will be packed into it.

We don't plan on allowing low gravity in our wsc file, or even ninja ropes. If you want to climb up in this map, you'll have to do it "creatively". Now, if someone were to lob a grenade into the shaft from afar, then yes, it would destroy a flag at the bottom. But the way the roof will be designed, will very likely make that near impossible - at least on the first couple of shots until you get your bearings for that perfect throw.

Even with those excuses, the flag doesn't really have to go there either. The initial purpose of this map - and therefore the specific layout that we are using - was to be a fort-style match. Trust me, I'm sure we will be able to make it work for CTF, but CTF is more of an afterthough at the moment. My guess is between everyone on these forums, we'll make it right.

Actually, I was thinking of offering a few beta slots to people I can trust won't go and distribute it to everyone. This way, we can get some input from you guys on bugs, issues, alterations and stuff before officially releasing it to everyone.

Oh and by way of update: Clogz sent me a couple nice pieces of furniture and I am almost finished with the general shell of the fort. Once the first one is complete, I can start on the 2nd, which will probably be very similar (atleast in the room sizes and orientation). So progress is coming along nicely!!

I'm sure that I won't be included in the contest that interest in this map was revitalized for, but atleast a new member in the mnp family will be born soon enough!

[hundreds]

Did some more work today!

Updates:

- increased the height of the Dojo - "higest" point no longer applies!
- added two rooftop portions, finished the hanging lanterns... and applied a serious amount of light sourcing!
- started the upper-most crawlspace-like room along with its light source on the ladder leading up to it.
- refined a whole bunch of walls to hopefully give a bit more room inside for your worms to go crazy.
- placed Clogz's two items in tentative places and added my own bonsai tree.
- added balcony and tower flags to further "brand" the fort.
- created a couple cool fish-like rooftop decorations.
- threw in a few more flowers behind the fort.

Got ideas or complaints? Let me know!

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Dojo5.jpg

[SgtFusion]

It looks very good.

[GreeN]

The lanterns look good, but to me it seems as if they are radiating too much light; especially so when you consider the ambient lighting of the rest of the map

Again, the lanterns themselves seem fine, though the reflections from the roof tops and surrounding areas almost seem to be brighter than the lanterns themselves.

[hundreds]

SgtFusion: Thanks man!

GreeN:

I can see that. And you are right. But part of the reason for the sometimes exaggerated light source is because of one of the biggest limitations in this game: the color palette. I forget (off the top of my head) exactly how many you get to use, but it isn't much, and so we try to use a lot of the same colors, over and over again to make sure they get into the palette. Additionally, this limited palette can sometimes result in a "washed out" look to what would otherwise be a nice, subtle, effect. What you guys are seeing in these screenshots is an 80% quality JPG that hasn't been wrung through the palette-limiting, forced-dithering, worms engine yet, so they will always look more vibrant than the final product - unfortunately.

Does anyone know if the news Worms Armageddon will not have this limitation? And more importantly, if imported maps of any size will still be allowed? Oh man... the reality of 24-bit color is too much to handle! You all should see some of the old Mnp maps in hi-color...

Below is yet another update to the first dojo in Feud, with more (and changed in some instances) lighting:

Updates:

- light sourcing on roof chamber done
- sleeping quarters done?
- sword display room started
- added flag to practice room
- fleshed out eating room, done?
- ripped a bookcase from "Global Warming" into a storage room

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Feud1.jpg

[CyberShadow]

Does anyone know if the news Worms Armageddon will not have this limitation? And more importantly, if imported maps of any size will still be allowed?It'll be great if we'll be able to use custom maps at all...

[hundreds]

See? I think Cybershadow feels my pain...

Aside from the 3D worms games that came out (and don't get me started on how wrong that was - I'm too much of a 2D geek), there have been practically no new worms games that allow you much of anything in terms of customization or even personalization with custom maps.

I'm really shooting for that "perfect" worms game with the new Armageddon. But, somehow I think we will still be relying on Cybershadow and Deadcode to make the 24-bit heaven happen.

Is that still on the drawing board? I havn't asked in about a year... I think.

[Gnork]

I can see that. And you are right. But part of the reason for the sometimes exaggerated light source is because of one of the biggest limitations in this game: the color palette. I forget (off the top of my head) exactly how many you get to use, but it isn't much

http://worms2d.info/Color_map

[hundreds]

Yah we use 64 - cuz I hate losing the wind-blown debris...

[Gnork]

Yah we use 64 - cuz I hate losing the wind-blown debris...

including black it's 65, not 64, maybe you have 1 colour left? xD
96 looks optimal tho :p with 113 u get dithered backgrounds often.. depending on the bg setting and used colours

[CyberShadow]

FWIW, the background dithering algorithm will be greatly improved in the next Beta.

[hundreds]

When I release our levels, I always opt for a 100% dithered PNG using 64 colors. This is because the color usage is always stretched to it's maximum for us, and not using dithering results in some very poor gradients, when they are used.

Cybershadow, when you say the background dithering will be better, what do you mean?

[CyberShadow]

Compare: before (http://dump.thecybershadow.net/5908a934fc9c8a847a22cd7f34269234/screen0485.png), after (http://dump.thecybershadow.net/3cd69438d6760f5c0b17a26be4f27d7f/screen0486.png) (map was dithered to 113 colors).
It's more noticeable when the palette contains colors not very suitable for the gradient. In this example, the gradient, like the map, is in shades of red and brown.

[hundreds]

I see, there is definitely a good step up in the after image. Maybe you can help me with something.

My method usually involves fine-tuning the palette (since we use so many diverse colors) inside the image-editing sofwate. I then export the image as a PNG 8 with 64 colors chosen, set at 100% dither.

I do this because it seemed to me that simply importing a 24-bit color 100% quality JPEG or whatever into W:A and letting it dither it for me usually ended up with me losing certain, what I would call, crucial colors. The flowers would be washed out, or maybe a specific light would be less luminent, because for the most part, the map didn't really use that color all that much. And so that's why I chose to pick my colors by hand after the design portion is done so that I could ensure that those colors got into the palette at the expense of a more or less redundant color (like half-light-sorta brown or something).

Are you saying that I may not have to do the hand picking in the next version, or will it still be limited since it is still only 64 colors?

Thanks!

Oh and before I go...

ANOTHER UPDATE!

- almost all rooms in the first Dojo are done!
- almost all architecture is done!
- almost all light-sourcing is done!
- just waiting on a few things from Cyr42 and Clogz and the first Dojo will be history!

Screenie for you:

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Feud2.jpg

[CyberShadow]

The changes only affect the background gradient rendered by the game for maps of non-standard height or having more than 97 colors. The map itself appears as it was saved from the image editing program.

Using W:A's (LeadTools') dithering algorithms for the map itself is unadvisable, and you definitely should not be using JPEG for anything except e.g. draft/web preview copies. Even if we were to try to improve the map dither algorithms, they probably still wouldn't be anywhere as good as in commercial image editing programs anyway.

[doben]

save for web - 8-bitpng - 64 colours is the way to go, so you are right doing it like that. however, you could try to restrict dithering to specific parts of the map using an alpha channel. i never tried that for myself, but only because i didnt need it yet.

"not using dithering results in some very poor gradients" well, depends, the poor gradients sometimes look much better than dithering, no matter if patterned oder not. but i guess in mnp maps it's the best choice to use dithering, anyway :)

[hundreds]

Yah maybe... but enlighten me. I have actually never used partial dithering before. I am using Fireworks CS4 currently. Do you, or anyone, know how that may be achieved?

[doben]

unfortunately there isn't such an option in fireworks, you'd have to use photoshop for that. this is what it looks like and where this function is hidden (PS CS3 -> Save for Web & Devices):

http://doben.info/pics/PartialDithering.jpg

[CyberShadow]

64 colours is the way to go - 64 colors not counting black. You're missing out on an extra palette slot if you use exactly 64 colors in Photoshop's dither settings. (See http://worms2d.info/Colour_map#Colour_limitation)

[doben]

actually i do, and i know about it. don't ask, can't explain it, maybe i like the number :)

[hundreds]

Yah, seemed to me that I have tried 65 before, and, atleast in Fireworks, it seemed to take away the backgrounds and stuff in W:A.

[CyberShadow]

Could you post a map dithered to 65 colors which causes W:A to not display background debris?

To check the real number of colors in a PNG's palette, use TweakPNG (http://entropymine.com/jason/tweakpng/).

[hundreds]

I will try it tomorrow afternoon and maybe I will find that I was doing it wrong or something.

[Gnork]

since you use wind debris, perhaps add some semi-transparent surfaces, like rice-paper walls where the debris shines through. example: http://www.wmdb.org/6305 or http://www.wmdb.org/6748

[hundreds]

since you use wind debris, perhaps add some semi-transparent surfaces, like rice-paper walls where the debris shines through. example: http://www.wmdb.org/6305 or http://www.wmdb.org/6748

Heyyyy! Gnork, that is a VERY good idea. Don't know why I never thought of that myself. You can use a cross-hatch dither to make an object "translucent". Not bad at all. Actually, I am just about done with the first Dojo and have not put in ANY rice paper walls as of yet. Since the other Dojo will be quite similar, I may have to find a spot to one in on the first one...

Thanks!

[hundreds]

Hey I am getting a new PC today, so I might be out of touch for a day or so before I can get all my software set up on it. Here's to hopin that the new cpu can process this huge Fireworks doc a little faster now!

But as an update, Clogz did come thru on the Kitchen stuff - will be incorporating a bit of it after the new PC is set up.

Jay

[hundreds]

UPDATE:

- Dojo almost DONE!!!!
- kitchen started
- chimney adjusted
- just a few more items to go!

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Feud3.jpg

[b1llygo4t]

thats looking awesome i must say

[hundreds]

Thanks billygoat,

Only have the bottom practice room and the kitchen table to complete. Then I can get started on the other Dojo. Here is what I am thinking for the 2nd fort: I was thinking of duplicating the room structure, changing the coloring to green (to represent the other team), and then rearranging/replacing some of the furniture to help individualize the other fort.

Good idea? Do you guys think it will stay somewhat balanced on each side so as to make sure neither side has an advantage over the other?

[Gnork]

Thanks billygoat,

Only have the bottom practice room and the kitchen table to complete. Then I can get started on the other Dojo. Here is what I am thinking for the 2nd fort: I was thinking of duplicating the room structure, changing the coloring to green (to represent the other team), and then rearranging/replacing some of the furniture to help individualize the other fort.

Good idea? Do you guys think it will stay somewhat balanced on each side so as to make sure neither side has an advantage over the other?

oh bah, the first BAD idea I hear... you're going to mirror the other side? boo, unimaginative! since the furniture won't be in the same place, why not just make another dojo as well - it will look way better in the end result rather than 'just two copied sides'.... u shouldn't make haste to finish the map by making it easy for you to use an already drawn dojo :p

[Plasma]

I'd agree with Gnork, you can do better than that. I don't have anything wrong with reusing the parts, but using a near-exact same layout is too boring. Surely you've played enough to be able to decide for yourself what's equally balanced without resorting to having them exactly the same!

[bonz]

There surely has to be a rule against mirroring in the MnP code of conduct. :eek:

[hundreds]

frack dag nabbit.

[hundreds]

OK.




I'm pretty sure that's rule number two. Right after the rule about not submitting a giant Garfield into a worms map design contest.

Well this is gonna delay things a bit. Here is the deal. I will probably be reusing most of the parts. At this point, since I have not yet started the other one, I am not sure just how different the two sides can be and still be balanced. But I am sure I will figure it out.

A few things that will have to stay the same though:

1. Both sides have to have the same number of floors and rooms.
2. Both need the chimney in the back and closely similar rooftops.
3. Both need a large practice room on the first floor.

If I change those, then one side will ultimately have the advantage. Maybe not initially, but eventually we will find the advantage. As soon as I start building the other side, I will probably have a better idea of what I will be able to do.

Thanks for not letting me phone this one in.

frackit.

[hundreds]

Nothing cooler than replying to yourself.

So here is the game plan - the general shape of the structure will be nearly the same, but the structure itself will actually wind up being a two-storey building propped up on stilts, with an open-air practice area and small access building below. If you took the silhouettes of both buildings and placed them on top of each other, you would definitely see a similarity. But the style and even the actual building will wind up being completely different.

Sound good?

Maybe I will have to just start it and show you guys.

[hundreds]

Hey just wanted to say I am STILL.... working on this map. At the rate I'm going, it may wind up being released for the new PC Worms game.

[Roboslob]

Wow, I haven't poked my head in here for a long time, and this looks awesome! Keep up the great work!

[raffie]

Hey just wanted to say I am STILL.... working on this map. At the rate I'm going, it may wind up being released for the new PC Worms game.

Yeh we're all hoping it will allow for importing custom maps.
Using them @ 24 bit would be the icing on the cake :p

[bonz]

Using them @ 24 bit would be the icing on the cake :p
Yeah.
I hope you keep all your uncompressed, unpaletted original files, hundreds! ;)

[raffie]

Offcourse he does, he is, like me, a pro graphic designer.

All my maps are 1 export away from glorious 24-BIT colors anyway :D

[hundreds]

hehehe- raffie was that a plug for yourself? hahah! and me??

yah i got all the layered pngs still. so if it's a go for 24bit, im there.

[Gnork]

How's the map evolving? :p

[hundreds]

Hey Gnork! Thanks for checkin up. I have been spending most of my time (worms-related anyway) working on the new look for mnpp.net. Incorporating wordpress and bbpress into it (which is not completely done). Also, the three of us have been working on a secret project which will have to remain that way for a while... so i STILL haven't completed Dojos.

However, there will be some pretty good incentive to getting this level done soon. New plans have been put into place for a few more MnP maps: Alcatraz being one of them. And I have a few more simple-style maps like last resort that i plan on pumping out towards the end of summer.

I got stuck on the ninjas side of the dojo map and have been there since winter. The basic issue is making the map look like it's own style, while NOT changing the balance of the structure. Tough.... but it will start getting some more attention soon.

[Lex]

Why do the doors have knobs on them? I was led to believe traditional Japanese homes had sliding doors, like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dji.

[Nando]

Why do the doors have knobs on them? I was led to believe traditional Japanese homes had sliding doors, like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dji.

And why does the hanging scroll say 本語? Doesn't really make sense. ;)
That's like 日本語 ("Japanese"), only that it's missing the first character.

[hundreds]

You know, I was wondering how long it took before someone started examining some of the semi-realisms in this particular level. Never thought we would have any of that with our other maps, well maybe the Star Wars one(s), but THIS one was sure to attract attention.

So let me answer you both with a simple statement:

I'm just trying to make it look pretty.

Now a bit elaboration:

I knew that I needed all three characters to make that a complete word, but it simply looked better with a little more white space above and below it. I will look in to it a bit more to see if I can be a little more correct. I have to say though, I think I like the word "panese" very much as it is. :) Seriously, I might change it. Wait till you see the ninja side. Actually, if you can think of a better Japanese character-based word for the Samurai side, I am certainly interested in using that instead. Hopefully something that uses only two characters?

The door knobs thing I think is more a style statement than a cultural inaccuracy. We use door knobs on all sorts of doors in our maps, and simply kept that style going. I may consider this suggestion as well, though, and opt for a more medieval style door handle instead.

Thanks for the pointers!

Jay

[GreeN]

Buke (武家)
A martial house or a member of such a house

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai#Etymology_of_samurai_and_related_words

Though, you'd probably want to double check with someone who actually speaks Japanese

[hundreds]

Yah if anyone can vouch for that, I'll use it. I actually need one for the Samurai side and one for the Ninjas.

[Nando]

武家 (buke) on the samurai side and 忍者 (ninja) on the ninja side would work fine, I guess.

I don't know if you'd usually find words like that on a hanging scroll, though. Since those are supposed to be works of art, I suppose the writing on them would normally carry a more "profound" meaning.

But that's obviously going too far, so I think buke and ninja fit well with your map. ;)

[hundreds]

武家 (buke) on the samurai side and 忍者 (ninja) on the ninja side would work fine, I guess.

I don't know if you'd usually find words like that on a hanging scroll, though. Since those are supposed to be works of art, I suppose the writing on them would normally carry a more "profound" meaning.

But that's obviously going too far, so I think buke and ninja fit well with your map. ;)

I dunno man, I'm thinking this is nice and profound. Let's try it...


"buke"


Oh ya. Profound.

Anyway thanks for helping me bridge the gap between obsessive correctness and simple video game graphical fluff. :)

[Mataga]

Very nice.What editor you use?

[hundreds]

Very nice.What editor you use?

Oh, you mean as in what program do we draw these in? That would be Fireworks mostly, some Illustrator. And unless CS5 has some SIGNIFICANT improvements in Fireworks stability under Windows 7, I may be switching to something else entirely.

And thank you!!!

[hundreds]

WHOA! Update!

So here is the dilemma. The map is coming along nicely. I have a few rooms worth of furniture to place, and the roof on the 2nd Dojo will need to be replaced with a different style (that might be a pain)... but there is ONE HUGE PROBLEM.

Worms Reloaded is here now. And we support it pretty strongly, seeing its potential and even what it is at this point. Also, Team17 very kindly included 4 of our maps in the full game! So our focus has been more strongly placed in THAT game's environment. That being said, there are a few limitations in that game which makes it tough to just "port" an MnP WA map to WR. The size limits for one...

Family Feud, or Dojos, or whatever it winds up being called, suffers from that problem. For it to work in WR, I'll need to cut out a couple small shrine-like buildings. Additionally, I will need to slightly restructure the map to be island-based (this is because WR pretty much only supports islands and caves... meh... for now...).

Once that is done, it will be released for WR. But the question is, should I create TWO versions of this map? One for WR and one for WA? Or should I just stick with one platform?

[lDarKl]

But the question is, should I create TWO versions of this map? One for WR and one for WA? Or should I just stick with one platform?

What, in your opinion, would be the downside of creating two versions for two games? There has to be some thought behind this sentence of yours, but I don't see a problem. :p

I'd love to have it for W:A since I'm a big fan of your maps.

[Plutonic]

Seems to me as you've started this one for WA you should finish it and have 2 versions, for future maps design them to work with both from the start.

[KRD]

I would much prefer it if you only made this, and all future maps, for Reloaded.

What...

He asked.

:(

[hundreds]

I would much prefer it if you only made this, and all future maps, for Reloaded.

What...

He asked.

:(

Haha! Someone is certainly ready to "move on". :D

Well, I have given it a bit more thought, and here is what I have decided. The major thing I am trying to avoid is having two different versions of the maps lying around. If I ever have to update a map, I don't want to do it twice. So, from here on out, all MnP maps will be designed with the lowest common denominator in mind (WR - seeing as how it has size and border limitations).

Our maps will no longer exceed the WR size limit. And until WR is updated to allow more than simply islands and caves, I will probably have to scratch a few of the upcoming maps we had planned. A couple of those being, Normandy and Clearwater. In fact, unless I find some stroke of genius, there will probably be NO port of Pit of Carkoon to WR as it is just too tight.

Additionally, I WILL be changing Family Feud to an island. Hopefully I will be able to make a coastline in approximately 10 pixels... I will also be pressing together the garden area, overlapping some things, in order for the level itself to fit in the new size constraints. It is gonna be tough to make it fit, but it won't be impossible.

As a side note, all MnP level updates, including this one, will be in both the Worms Reloaded forum and this one. I will probably be just placing a quicklink to the WR forum so that I don't actually have to maintain two identical threads. :)

Be sure that we aren't leaving WA behind. As it is now, for level editing, there is still more freedom in this old game. But I really hope that WR eventually takes over.

[hundreds]

Anyone wanna see an update to the 2nd Dojo? Below is a side by side comparison of both Dojos - the red one is complete and the green one needs some furniture and just a few structural changes made to it.

With that said, I need suggestions for furniture in the GREEN dojo. Any takers? Suggestions should be items NOT in the red one, but definitely should be authentic to the setting and workable in the gameplay.

Thanks!

Jay

http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Feud5.jpg
http://www.mnpp.net/files/worms/inwork/Feud4.jpg

[CyberShadow]

One note about W:A: please be sure to keep true-colour versions of your maps, for when W:A will finally be rid of the 256-colour limitations.

[GreeN]

What do the hanging flags in each dojo now say?

[hundreds]

I haven't changed the flags yet. But I will.

@Cybershadow: They will be made in true color and I will be exporting a WA version, as well as a WR version.

[bonz]

Is Facing Dojos the only map that is in a dilemma now?

If so, how about actually making 2 separate, different maps out of it?
Keep the current, larger one as it is now for WA only with the CTF style in mind.
And create a smaller one for WR (and WA) which is a fort map, i.e. no continuous garden, but a stretch of water between two island.

Then, once WR allows for the larger size and border style, you can release the big one there too.
That would save you from taken compromises and forcing you to release a reduced version for WA. It'd also give us more MnP goodness.

Maybe you could call one map "Facing Dojos" (forts) and the other "Japanese Garden" (CTF).

Also, I'll try to get some time to help you testing, as you've already been contacting me several times now on Steam.

[CakeDoer]

W:A will finally be rid of the 256-colour limitations.

YEEEEEEEEESSSSS.

Also, the Green Dojo looks very cool so far. Nice job. Maybe you can add some sort of picture with a Japanese landscape hanging on the wall (which does not exist)?

[hundreds]

Hey thanks! Actually, something like that HAS been added to the Green Dojo.

@bonz: Hey bro, no problem. Let's try to do it some time today or tomorrow maybe. And the "dilemma" is fixed. I actually kinda sorta redid the garden area specifically for WR, and left the full version for Armageddon. I play-tested it on WR with Wormkill the other day and it is great. Haven't play tested the WA version, but if it works in WR, it'll work in WA.

Just so you know, the "dilemma" map is by far... Pit of Carkoon. That one will probably NEVER make it to WR. Too many things going against it.

[CakeDoer]

Actually, something like that HAS been added to the Green Dojo.

Hmm, what is it? I don't see it in the pic, have you added it recently? Also, what will be the approximate size of the map?

[GreeN]

CakeDoer, go here:
http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42103

[hundreds]

CakeDoer, go here:
http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42103

Yup! It's been released! :)