Highly moddable Worms 3D game for PC

[_Kilburn]

I've posted this suggestion a few days ago, but it was on some thread in Games Discussion whose author was crying because Worms 4 Mayhem was too childish, and I doubt many people will read my post there. Anyway, that's not the point of this thread.

Here is a quote from my post.

A great alternative would be a really highly moddable Worms game. With the ability to export actor classes, modify them, create a mod file, and try it. I know it isn't that simple, but I believe it's not impossible. You should also be able to export meshes and textures, and create your own weapon models, clothes, and even crates (want to do a new type of crate ?).

I know there are classes in the game. By tweaking, you can just modify some default properties of those. There is only a simple PayloadWeaponContainer class for everything that launches a payload : bazooka, grenade, banana bomb, dynamite, etc... Thus, it's very limited, as all these weapons are made from the exact same class, with only some properties that are different. Well, there are some subclasses, such as HomingPayloadWeaponContainer, but still.... it's limited. You should be able to create your own weapon subclasses and effects, so the possibilities are nearly unlimited. Want to do a vortex that sucks in every worms, projectiles, mines, crates that are around it ? No problem. Electromagnet ? Boomerang ? Too easy. Drunken rocket algorithm ? Just find it on Internet, or create your own trajectory algorithm, and implement it.
There should also be a support for beams. These are great, especially for straight rope and laser effects. Just give the starting coordinates, the ending coordinates, the beam texture, and you are done. (why not a tripmine that explodes when you go through its laser beam ?)

Well, all this should be supported by network playing, it's probably quite hard to implement, but many other games support this mod/addon system, so I believe it's possible.

So everyone would be happy. The ones who are tired of the "childish" aspect of Worms could do a mod with loads of "uber classic weapons for grownups", machine guns, pistols, shotguns (that all have nearly the same effect btw), and add ultra violence with intense blood effect, gibs, or whatever they want.
And, well, some others would create interesting and balanced weapons, with nice weapon models, or maybe special interesting gamemodes, and share them online.

Well, maybe the way I'm writing this makes it sound easy, but I know it isn't. First, I don't know how classes are defined in the game. The only thing I know about them is what people call "tweaking" is actually changing the values of some variables in instances of these classes (with possibility to create new instances, custom particle emitters and clusters...). And moreover, as Spadge said, tweaking is unstable and may crash your PC, or worse, crash other people's PC if you take these tweaks online.

Using an object oriented programming language for defining new classes would be interesting (some C or Java-like language, or maybe even Lua, which is a pretty good and simple language although it doesn't have native object oriented support). I believe it depends on the way classes are defined in the previous 3D Worms games (otherwise, it should probably involve changing completely the game engine, which is nearly impossible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm nearly sure that you are using the same class definition system for every Worms game since Worms 3D, including Worms HD, Worms Open Warfare...).

Well, if this is possible, going a little further would be interesting. There should be a way to create custom models and textures, import and use them in your own classes. This should apply to every kind of entity that uses a 3D mesh (clothes, weapons, projectiles, details, mesh particles). And same for custom sprites, for user-defined particle effects.

How about mapping ? I don't think this should be added, since maps are huge, which would make online games load very long if they are using custom maps.
Anyway, if it's possible, and good map editor should be possible. First, you should be able to import a height map from a bitmap, or maybe create a flat height map and change it by click & drag. For map elements that use poxels, there should be a list of predefined elements (land, bridges, decorations, primitives, buildings) that you can place anywhere on the map. How about adding custom poxel objects, I really don't know how to make this simple.
I don't know how lights and shadows work, I just know the shading data is in the .csh files from Worms 4 Mayhem\data\Maps.

I think the most important here is mod and custom texture/mesh support. If this can be added in a future Worms 3D game, it would open nearly infinite possibilities, including new weapons (maybe extendable inventory ?), new interesting gamemodes (custom singleplayer missions, multiplayer missions, mutiplayer weapon trainings, some crazy gamemode where you have to shoot as many old women as possible...), new HUD and special menus.

Well, about online playing, noobs and ropers. I've heard that mods wouldn't work because of noobs that would create overpowered weapons and bring them online. First, if you are creating your own game, people that join will use your mod, and only your mod (except maybe clientside mods). Second, unless you are a noob, you won't stay in a noob server, right ? Noobs that bring their own mods with weapons that destroy the whole maps will play with noobs, or with bored people that will disconnect after a few seconds. That's it.
What about ropers or anti-mods ? Well I know some communities from moddable games, they are always divided into at least 2 parts : the ones who like mods, the ones who don't like them. There will be always people who don't like mods and create download-free servers for everyone. And the good old rope servers will be still there too.

Indeed, this should be only one of the features of "Worms 5". I know many people don't know programming, and can't learn for some reason. Well, there shouldn't be too many weapons, around the same number of weapons as in Worms 4 Mayhem. New weapons, like the Boomerang and the Electromagnet you have added in Worms Open Warfare 2. I've noticed that you have taken some of the great ideas from the website Worms Unlimited (sentry gun, alien abduction...) and there are still great weapons that can be added.
People who don't know modding will still play a great Worms game, and will eventually download mods from other people if they want to have more fun.

These ideas are from a 16 year-old French student that doesn't write English perfectly, so sorry if what I'm writing doesn't make sense, or if the way I'm writing it makes it looks so easy to do.

And sorry for my member name, I joined the Team 17 forum when I was still an Internet newbie, and I didn't even know that Team 17 developers have given their nickname to default worms and teams in Worms Armageddon.

_________________________________

To people who would rather want a 2D moddable game :

Note that I'm talking about a 3D game. I had to recreate this thread because it turned into a flame war, some of you were arguing, saying that 2D is better than 3D, and that if a moddable Worms game had to come out for PC, it should be 2D.
Well, create your own thread, and ignore this one, or if you really have something important to say, think of your arguments first. If you think a shoppa in a 3D Worms game would be great, say it. If you think it's not a good idea, explain why. If you think mods for a 2D Worms would be better, give examples and reasons. I need the opinions of Worms 3D and Worms 4 Mayhem players that think the Worms 3D games can be improved, and from WA players that don't really like Worms 3D for some reason and who are able to tell me what can be added that would make them like such a 3D game, not from selfish 2D addicts that want a moddable game only for themselves and giving as an only reason "2D is more fun than 3D".

[MtlAngelus]

The thing with Worms is that it's not really that great an idea for it to be modable...
Let's say you could "add" weapons to the game(with custom models and everything), that other people had to download before starting the match and they they would stay in their weapons inventory, that would get pretty messy really fast, and how do you make it so that the weapons cannot be too overpowered? Or do you intend to be able to make separate games with the modding tools, like the Source SDK? For that to work properly you would need a very large community. Not many people play the Worms games... divide it by several mods lying around, and it gets even smaller...

The only thing worms needs is a map editor, and a larger set of weapons/utilities.

[pieman280]

this sounds soooo cool, but i'm a little confused to how anyone can get a map maker in.

I have a few questions:

Can we add something like the "beefcake breakfast brawl" level because some people really wanted that as a playable level?
How long will this take? weeks? months? A year?
in What way can I help you? I would love to help.
Is this some type of download or something or do you have to put files onto a CD?


And I'm glad that you remade the thread, now we can actually talk about modding;)

[MtlAngelus]

this sounds soooo cool, but i'm a little confused to how anyone can get a map maker in.

I have a few questions:

Can we add something like the "beefcake breakfast brawl" level because some people really wanted that as a playable level?
How long will this take? weeks? months? A year?
in What way can I help you? I would love to help.
Is this some type of download or something or do you have to put files onto a CD?


And I'm glad that you remade the thread, now we can actually talk about modding;)
*slaps hand on face*
He is not making a mod... he is requesting that the next worms game by t17 is made so that it can be modded, because currently, you CANNOT mod W4:M...

[pieman280]

*slaps hand on face*
He is not making a mod... he is requesting that the next worms game by t17 is made so that it can be modded, because currently, you CANNOT mod W4:M...

Sorry, I wasn't reading it carfully.

[_Kilburn]

Let's say you could "add" weapons to the game(with custom models and everything), that other people had to download before starting the match and they they would stay in their weapons inventory, that would get pretty messy really fast, and how do you make it so that the weapons cannot be too overpowered?

Nope, they wouldn't stay in their weapon inventory. They would be downloaded as "temporary mods", you can't really use them offline, they are only compressed and saved in cache files so the download is faster when you have to download the same mod on another server.
And, well, for the overpowered weapons, I don't really know how this should work. Is there really something wrong with overpowered weapons ? If they may crash the whole Worms 4 server, there is a real problem, sure, but if they just ruin the fun, just disconnect and find a better host. If they make people crash to desktop, well... er... report and ban ?

[...]

*slaps hand on face*
He is not making a mod... he is requesting that the next worms game by t17 is made so that it can be modded, because currently, you CANNOT mod W4:M...

Right. I don't want to make a mod for Worms 4, I want to suggest Team17 to make the next 3D PC Worms game fully, or at least, highly moddable. I hope they will read my post some day and say if it's possible or not.

You can modify some properties in the tweak files, and do a uber cluster bomb with amazing light effects, but that's all. I don't actually call this modding.

[Metal Alex]

*imagines Gmod, with worms, and destructible environment*

*drools*

[MtlAngelus]

Nope, they wouldn't stay in their weapon inventory. They would be downloaded as "temporary mods", you can't really use them offline, they are only compressed and saved in cache files so the download is faster when you have to download the same mod on another server.
And, well, for the overpowered weapons, I don't really know how this should work. Is there really something wrong with overpowered weapons ? If they may crash the whole Worms 4 server, there is a real problem, sure, but if they just ruin the fun, just disconnect and find a better host. If they make people crash to desktop, well... er... report and ban ?

There's still other issues at hand, for example if a custom weapon located in your cache has the same name as a different custom weapon in a new server, it would just load the file you already have thinking it's the same, and would cause a discrepancy between you and the server...
Besides, I hardly see any point anyway, since it won't make the game that much funner, you'll probably have fun the first few days of modding it but eventually you'll get tired of that, like tweaking on W4 is fun for a while but gets boring afterwards...
If you have a proper worms game with a lot and varied weapons, and a good map editor, that's all it takes to make it a really great game. Even more if you make it 2d. :p

[_Kilburn]

No, there wouldn't be a file for each weapon. You'll have to create a package that contains several scripts, set the game so it loads this package at startup. This package would have define name and version, and unless two players give the same name and version to their mod (which happens very rarely), it should work well. Moreover, you should add an inventory subclass in that package, so you can make your weapons appear in your inventory. Thus, you can also easily select and deselect custom inventories before playing a game.

And I don't want moddable ability only for weapons. You can do much more than that. You could create simple mods that can be turned on or off before playing a game (blood effect, worms can walk on ceiling, or whatever else you can do with mods), new interesting gamemodes, or maybe even total conversions.

*imagines Gmod, with worms, and destructible environment*

*drools*

There should be a way to create worms ragdolls, turn them into player models, tweak the third person view so it's playable, and use non-physics cubic props for the map. :p

[quakerworm]

There's still other issues at hand, for example if a custom weapon located in your cache has the same name as a different custom weapon in a new server, it would just load the file you already have thinking it's the same, and would cause a discrepancy between you and the server...
oh no, but this can happen to any cache! we are all doomed!

not really, of course, because there is something called a hash. compare hash of the remote file to the local copy, and if the hashes don't match, update the local copy. a 128 bit hash, such as md5, would be more than sufficient and would cause virtually no overhead to check.

[MtlAngelus]

oh no, but this can happen to any cache! we are all doomed!

not really, of course, because there is something called a hash. compare hash of the remote file to the local copy, and if the hashes don't match, update the local copy. a 128 bit hash, such as md5, would be more than sufficient and would cause virtually no overhead to check.
Yeah I tought there would be a simple solution.
It was a bad example, my bad.

[pieman280]

Oh, I thought of something.... how about if the blowtorch makes it into that game then you get to tweak the speed, fire, and damadge it does. that would be really cool for a moddable worms.

[_Kilburn]

You still don't get it. In a moddable Worms, you won't have to say "tweak" anymore. Tweak is an old limited thing, time for REAL mods. Thus, you don't need more weapons, don't put too many of them, modders will add as many cool weapons they want. :p

Anyway, a built in blowtorch and drill would be great, and if the blowtorch is in the game, consequently it will be moddable. The HUD would then need an altimeter addon though. So you don't drill right into the water. http://forums.facepunchstudios.com/images/smilies/emot-v.png

[Metal Alex]

There should be a way to create worms ragdolls, turn them into player models, tweak the third person view so it's playable, and use non-physics cubic props for the map. :p

I actually meant the destructible part ;)

I wouldn't mind if the models were humans.

[_Kilburn]

I think I've heard somewhere that Source can't manage destructable land. Anyway, a turn based Worms gamemode with some Worms weapons and Worms player models would be great, even though it doesn't have destructable environment. :p

Er, well, but let's stop being off-topic.
I'd like to see the opinions of more Worms players. Even if you don't like the 3D Worms games, if the next one was moddable, would that new feature make you want to try it ?

[Metal Alex]

Er, well, but let's stop being off-topic.
I'd like to see the opinions of more Worms players. Even if you don't like the 3D Worms games, if the next one was moddable, would that new feature make you want to try it ?

As I clearly stated before (and thinking it was ontopic :confused:) I would.

[KRD]

I'd like to see the opinions of more Worms players. Even if you don't like the 3D Worms games, if the next one was moddable, would that new feature make you want to try it ?

As I explained two threads ago*, no, it would make me less inclined to try it. Even though you seem to think people would still play the standard schemes, previous WormNet experience teaches us that wouldn't be the case. And without standard schemes being played, nobody can truly be better at the game than others, so modability would eventually be the reason the online component of the game would never take off as it did on WA.


* One of which disappeared along with my inspired replies, didn't it?

[Plasma]

As I explained two threads ago*, no, it would make me less inclined to try it. Even though you seem to think people would still play the standard schemes, previous WormNet experience teaches us that wouldn't be the case. And without standard schemes being played, nobody can truly be better at the game than others, so modability would eventually be the reason the online component of the game would never take off as it did on WA.


* One of which disappeared along with my inspired replies, didn't it?
Where did you get the 'previous WormNet experience' from?

[KRD]

Where did you get the 'previous WormNet experience' from?

Second generation games in the series, if you mean first hand. Taking WormNet1 as an example, I'd point out the way the Roper scheme, a mild example of a mod, overshadowed all default schemes that were being played competitively and for fun during the official rankings period and basically killed the experience for anyone wanting to play the game "as it was meant to be played". The blockade wasn't complete, but it was bad enough and lasted long enough to make a lot of people quit the game completely which harmed and continues to harm the community. Those who didn't quit had to either stick to playing with their two friends that felt as they did or move on to Ropers and Warmers. Of course the bright side is that some other schemes [BnG, T17, Pro, Elite and later RR and Shoppers] survived or were invented, so there was some sort of choice for those that stuck around. But Intermediate hasn't recovered to this day and it really isn't a worse or less fun scheme when played by people who know how to.

My second example are the two Case's Ladder sections on Worms 2. The game [understandably, perhaps] has practically nobody playing it online for fun anymore, but the competitive side of things isn't as dead as you'd expect. Lots of Rope and BnG Ladder games are still played daily and I believe that's because nobody can mess with the standard schemes a large league like Case's uses. Outside leagues people could and did do exactly that and voilà, the community is gone.

But schemes are nothing compared to the customisation Kilburn has in mind here. He's talking about a level beyond even Fiddler's capabilities. And tell me, how many balanced Fiddler schemes can you name?

[Shadowmoon]

I think modding is a great idea. It would be very good for the worms series. A highly moddable worms game i think is suited for the older ones, not the 3-11 year olds because they won't understand. But yes it would be great to create our own weapons, add violence effects in, and edit the game to our hearts content! that would be brilliant:D it would make older people happy who want to edit the game. But there is very little support from fans for 3D, and lots of support for 2D. I would say i want to see a Moddable 3D game. Why not 2D? because we have had too many 2D games. I think its time they got back to 3D for a little while.

[_Kilburn]

Right. The reason why I want a moddable 3D Worms game is for this exact reason : 3D doesn't have much support. This is why WA looks far better than any Worms 3D game. Because it has really much good support.

Give the possibility to create, add and edit game content, so everyone can contribute and support the game, each one adding their own stuff, so the game doesn't die. Moddable games nearly always have a very long life.

WA is also kind of moddable, because there are still people working on it, taking suggestions from various players, and because we are all waiting for the next update. Thus, it also has a very long life.

[Shadowmoon]

Yes i agree. Its easy to get bored of a normal worms game, but making it moddable would give players a lot to do. They will never get bored. Because the 3D has little support, i want it to be 3D too. Team 17 have created enough 2D games so if they ever brang out a moddable worms game i would want it to be 3D.
Anyone who wants to join the discussion feel free to post please.

[Square]

I'd disagree. Instead of making MODs, which would enable users to create bizarre mods, it'd be better to add customization, much more customization. For ex:

-Weapon chemical mixes. Holy hand grenade strikes or some weapon combiner.
-Configurable game rules at some extend. Like no rope knocking, retreat or disconnect instantly removes all worms from the game or cannot attack if not from rope.

Someone requested deadcode scriptable maps in the other forum. You know gunbound? Maps could be interactive, like tornadoes, rain, moving objects or moving platforms, occasionally a meteor shall fall from the sky, moon / sun skies, NPC worms maybe?

In terms of map editing, extended WWP multiplayer missions to multiplayer campaigns or maps with fixed events like sand storms, storms with wind and lightnings, etc.

All that wouldn't matter if 2D or 3D.

Going as far as modeling worms, changing the camera perspective, creating weapons, modifying the core logic by changing the rules, turn based to realtime, scripting worms actions is... too much. You know soldat? Worms in realtime would be like soldat, frag gore game.

[Shadowmoon]

I'd disagree. Instead of making MODs, which would enable users to create bizarre mods, it'd be better to add customization, much more customization. For ex:

-Weapon chemical mixes. Holy hand grenade strikes or some weapon combiner.
-Configurable game rules at some extend. Like no rope knocking, retreat or disconnect instantly removes all worms from the game or cannot attack if not from rope.

Someone requested deadcode scriptable maps in the other forum. You know gunbound? Maps could be interactive, like tornadoes, rain, moving objects or moving platforms, occasionally a meteor shall fall from the sky, moon / sun skies, NPC worms maybe?

In terms of map editing, extended WWP multiplayer missions to multiplayer campaigns or maps with fixed events like sand storms, storms with wind and lightnings, etc.

All that wouldn't matter if 2D or 3D.

Going as far as modeling worms, changing the camera perspective, creating weapons, modifying the core logic by changing the rules, turn based to realtime, scripting worms actions is... too much. You know soldat? Worms in realtime would be like soldat, frag gore game.

But wouldn't you like to edit the game yourself? with modding, you could add special effects to weapons, and you would be allowed to edit the landscapes and put events on them.

[_Kilburn]

I'd disagree. Instead of making MODs, which would enable users to create bizarre mods.

What do you have against bizzare mods ?

Going as far as modeling worms, changing the camera perspective, creating weapons, modifying the core logic by changing the rules, turn based to realtime, scripting worms actions is... too much. You know soldat? Worms in realtime would be like soldat, frag gore game.

You just find it too complicated. For some people, it is not. Also, I don't think everyone is thinking about a Worms with lots of gore. And if you find mods that you don't like.... just don't download them, you know.


All of your suggestions can be easily done via modding. So everyone is happy, because Team17 doesn't have to read each of their posts, sorting out the good suggestions and implementing them one by one in the game.

[KRD]

All of your suggestions can be easily done via modding.

Rrrrright.

[yakuza]

I want a great worms game, can you do that via modding? Because I don't doubt your modding skills, however I don't think you'd be able to please me.

[Plasma]

You know soldat? Worms in realtime would be like soldat, frag gore game.
Soldat is a very popular game though! Also, nobody mentioned anything about realtime.
As your post is mostly another 'I don't like mods', I can't really reply to anything else on that.

I want a great worms game,
Because you didn't actually say what 'great' is, I'm gonna say Yes.

[Shadowmoon]

Yakuza, you can do anything you want with modding. You can add blood effects, New weapons, new missions anything you want.

[_Kilburn]

Shadowmoon, I don't think he really cares about blood effects, new weapons and new missions at all.

If you want a great Worms game, go play WA, it's sooooooooooooooooooooo great, isn't it ?

Seriously, none of you here can understand modding until you try to do your own mods. Even though you have already played mods, you can't understand the point of modding if you have never built your own mod.

Nearly everyone here who have tried messing a little with Worms 4 tweaks do agree with me. How surprising, heh ?

[MrBunsy]

Yakuza, you can do anything you want with modding. You can add blood effects, New weapons, new missions anything you want.

Not necessarily. It would depend entirely upon how much freedom the game allows.

[_Kilburn]

The degree of modding I'm talking about would allow you to do that.

[pieman280]

Seriously, none of you here can understand modding until you try to do your own mods. Even though you have already played mods, you can't understand the point of modding if you have never built your own mod.



I've recently been modding games like crazy, and I understand modding a lot more now. :)

I've made my own mods for CC (cortex command) and now I feel like modding is the way of the future! just imagine having skill to make almost entirely new games. modding is fantastic!!! :cool:

[Shadowmoon]

Try to do your own mods?:confused: and how are you supposed to do that kilburn?

[pieman280]

Try to do your own mods?:confused: and how are you supposed to do that kilburn?

he's talking about modding another game and then see what modding is like. I would say CC (http://datarealms.com/) is the good modding game.

[yakuza]

Shadowmoon, I don't think he really cares about blood effects, new weapons and new missions at all.


You're right, I was just implying that just because you have the skills to mod doesn't mean you have the skills to please a big number of people, like Team17 have proven to be able to do, in fact. Being able to make weapons and being able to make a fun, balanced mod is a different thing.


If you want a great Worms game, go play WA, it's sooooooooooooooooooooo great, isn't it ?


It is, but what does this have to do with anything?


Seriously, none of you here can understand modding until you try to do your own mods. Even though you have already played mods, you can't understand the point of modding if you have never built your own mod.

I don't need to understand modding to be able to say I enjoy or don't enjoy a mod. In fact, I probably don't even have to play the mod to be able to have an opinion.


Nearly everyone here who have tried messing a little with Worms 4 tweaks do agree with me. How surprising, heh ?

Not surprising at all, you see, every person I have played football with likes football.

[_Kilburn]

I don't need to understand modding to be able to say I enjoy or don't enjoy a mod. In fact, I probably don't even have to play the mod to be able to have an opinion.

Don't try to reply to what you don't understand. This is not what I meant at all. A game that has native modding support is not a mod.

Not surprising at all, you see, every person I have played football with likes football.

Again, don't try to look smart with your replies. This is a stupid comparison that has nothing to do with what I've just said.


Also, I don't see why you keep posting in this thread. If you think 3D, or this whole thread, is rubbish, then go play WA and leave this thread alone instead of posting your stupid personal thoughts that don't make sense.

[Square]

Better have a "worms game maker" then...

[yakuza]

Don't try to reply to what you don't understand. This is not what I meant at all. A game that has native modding support is not a mod.

I don't really understand what you mean by this, is this your response to my statement that "just because you add mod support doesn't mean that the mods that come out of it will be good for most people"?



Again, don't try to look smart with your replies. This is a stupid comparison that has nothing to do with what I've just said.


I'm not trying to look smart, why would I try to look smart when you obviously think I'm not no matter what I type? It's not a matter of personal image that brings me to post here. Back to the original point, you seemed to think that it was positive and helped your case of mod support campaign that most people that tried tweaking enjoyed tweaking, well, maybe those people had an original interest in tweaking to begin with? All I'm saying is that just because you introduced some of your friends to tweaking and they liked itdoesn't make it an objectively good thing, if we both understand this then there is no need to debate the point.



Also, I don't see why you keep posting in this thread. If you think 3D, or this whole thread, is rubbish, then go play WA and leave this thread alone instead of posting your stupid personal thoughts that don't make sense.

Seeing as I haven't mentioned 3D or this thread being rubbish nor the superiority of WA I'm inclined to believe you're letting your emotions take over your sense. My personal thoughts might not make sense to you, like I said in paragraph one, it's not my aim to convince you when it's clear you won't no matter the circumstances. However, if you're going to reply to my posts, please make sure you're actually debating my points and not just having a personal go at me for random reasons like the above quoted.

This is a thread about a highly modifiable 3D Worms Game, if you're not going to tolerate people who dislike what this would mean to the worms series you might as well consider not opening a thread on a debatable subject ever again.

[Shadowmoon]

I don't really understand what you mean by this, is this your response to my statement that "just because you add mod support doesn't mean that the mods that come out of it will be good for most people"?




I'm not trying to look smart, why would I try to look smart when you obviously think I'm not no matter what I type? It's not a matter of personal image that brings me to post here. Back to the original point, you seemed to think that it was positive and helped your case of mod support campaign that most people that tried tweaking enjoyed tweaking, well, maybe those people had an original interest in tweaking to begin with? All I'm saying is that just because you introduced some of your friends to tweaking and they liked itdoesn't make it an objectively good thing, if we both understand this then there is no need to debate the point.




Seeing as I haven't mentioned 3D or this thread being rubbish nor the superiority of WA I'm inclined to believe you're letting your emotions take over your sense. My personal thoughts might not make sense to you, like I said in paragraph one, it's not my aim to convince you when it's clear you won't no matter the circumstances. However, if you're going to reply to my posts, please make sure you're actually debating my points and not just having a personal go at me for random reasons like the above quoted.

This is a thread about a highly modifiable 3D Worms Game, if you're not going to tolerate people who dislike what this would mean to the worms series you might as well consider not opening a thread on a debatable subject ever again.

Kilburn there are some people who will say they Hate 3D on this board and you will have to tolerate it. Not everyone likes 3D. I think you need to tell us what you mean, as people are not understanding you properly.

[Plasma]

Yakuza, you're entire 'points' were just "some mods will suck". And unless you can tie that into why you think the entire game and all good mods would suck, it isn't a point.

Kilburn there are some people who will say they Hate 3D on this board and you will have to tolerate it. Not everyone likes 3D. I think you need to tell us what you mean, as people are not understanding you properly.
I'm pretty sure he's saying that the next 3D worms game made should focus on modding a lot more than the last one did.
Note that I said 'the next 3D worms made should-', and not 'the next worms game made should be 3D and should-'.

[yakuza]

Yakuza, you're entire 'points' were just "some mods will suck". And unless you can tie that into why you think the entire game and all good mods would suck, it isn't a point.




Actually what I meant is that most mods will suck and probably none will improve the game, unless it's to tweak it a la DC and CS. A game without modding wouldn't have this problem. And since I don't trust anyone to mess with worm's mechanics other than myself (and I don't know how to), I don't think adding mod support would be any good for the game. I'm sure _Killburn will love it, I'm sure people who play Gary's Mod will love it. I play worms though. Is this so hard to accept?

[MrBunsy]

Actually what I meant is that most mods will suck and probably none will improve the game, unless it's to tweak it a la DC and CS. A game without modding wouldn't have this problem. And since I don't trust anyone to mess with worm's mechanics other than myself (and I don't know how to), I don't think adding mod support would be any good for the game. I'm sure _Killburn will love it, I'm sure people who play Gary's Mod will love it. I play worms though. Is this so hard to accept?

Yes, because it's slightly flying in the face of evidence. Roping, and all the gametypes that spawned from it weren't, as far as I can tell, intended back in 2D, yet they're insanely popular. Other mods in other games have proven equally popular (CS, TF, RO?). There is no doubt there will be tonnes of crap, but there's quite a high chance something decent and popular will also be produced.

[yakuza]

Yes, because it's slightly flying in the face of evidence. Roping, and all the gametypes that spawned from it weren't, as far as I can tell, intended back in 2D, yet they're insanely popular. Other mods in other games have proven equally popular (CS, TF, RO?). There is no doubt there will be tonnes of crap, but there's quite a high chance something decent and popular will also be produced.


Yes, but you have limited options in scheme editing, when you put modding into the equation there's more decisions to make, more ways to go, more chances to mess up and yes, more resources to do something good. In all these years, since W2 to now only a few user made schemes have persisted, and some of them are only played by the so called casual or newbies, but remember we're talking about the 3D series here, where the community hasn't even developed one scheme that is widely popular, due to technical limitations or ineptitude, maybe because the community isn't suited for custom made content that lasts, or just don't care enough.
You don't compare Halflife mods to Worms potential mods, if you can't figure out why yourself maybe you should reconsider your contributions.

[pieman280]

Yes, because it's slightly flying in the face of evidence. Roping, and all the gametypes that spawned from it weren't, as far as I can tell, intended back in 2D, yet they're insanely popular. Other mods in other games have proven equally popular (CS, TF, RO?). There is no doubt there will be tonnes of crap, but there's quite a high chance something decent and popular will also be produced.

Yes, a lot of times there are great mods. modding opens up new doors. if you think the mods will be crap then just don't mod.

[MrBunsy]

You don't compare Halflife mods to Worms potential mods, if you can't figure out why yourself maybe you should reconsider your contributions.
Why not? You could do some pretty awsome stuff with access to a 3D engine with fully-deformable land. Granted, only turn-based, but there's still potential.

[yakuza]

Why not? You could do some pretty awsome stuff with access to a 3D engine with fully-deformable land. Granted, only turn-based, but there's still potential.

Because HalfLife has 10 times the user base Worms:4 has, maybe 10 times 10. So there's a higher chance something good would come out of it, and CS, TF and whatever else are hardly "mods", they're, for the most part, different games that share the engine. I don't think that's what _Killburn is proposing, unless of course, he wants to reinvent worms instead of making a few colorful weapons that make things fly and baboons go boom.

[Plasma]

*sigh*
Firstly, the modding that we're talking about could essentially make a 2D worms, but using 3D graphics (although the terrain would have to be considerably less detailed). It's like some parts of the levels in Super Mario Galaxy.
From there, you can put all the old honour-reliant schemes back in, only now you can actually make real rules for them.
Now, if you were to say that those shemes that depend on the players to play by rules are few and unpopular, then I don't know what you're talking about.

It's also worth noting that if a mod sucks, you don't have to play it. No, you really don't.

[MrBunsy]

Because HalfLife has 10 times the userbase Worms:4 has, maybe 10 times 10.

Largely because it had such good mods.

[yakuza]

It's also worth noting that if a mod sucks, you don't have to play it. No, you really don't.

Really? But wouldn't this mean that other people will? Wouldn't that mean that there will be less people to play the games I like? Wouldn't that mean that the competition would be decentralized and that not many people will actually get very good at a respective scheme? Wouldn't this suck for me? Yes it would, and the fact that you're trying to void my opinion by offering really superficial and inaccurate advice implies you're underrating my ability to have an opinion, I suggest you try and stop that from happening, I actually know why I wouldn't like a moddable Worms game, and I have all fronts covered, thanks for caring though, but you're not useful.

Largely because it had such good mods.

Look, if you think that someone could pick Worms mod edition and reinvent it like Counter Strike did to Half Life then I salute your optimism, seriously, but you have to consider the different in popularity between FPS games and Worms, and then consider what are the chances of a group of people to pick up Worms and change everything, the graphics, the gameplay and make it work, I personally don't see it.

[Plasma]

Really? But wouldn't this mean that other people will? Wouldn't that mean that there will be less people to play the games I like?
I wouldn't consider that an issue. The worms series had enough fans to make sure there'd always be people playing the regular mode online.

Wouldn't that mean that the competition would be decentralized and that not many people will actually get very good at a respective scheme?
That's not what happened in W:A...

and the fact that you're trying to void my opinion by offering really superficial and inaccurate advice implies you're underrating my ability to have an opinion,
This is a forum. We debate stuff. And if you get annoyed because someone tries to reasonably argue against your opinion, then you're not a very good forumer.

[Shadowmoon]

Yakuza this is a thread about a 3D moddable game, if you don't like 3D then go away, because this thread is not for you. If you disagree with modding, then leave this thread alone. This thread is for a 3D moddable game its not an arguement against 3D and
2D. If you don't like modding or 3D games then leave this thread alone.

[MrBunsy]

but you have to consider the different in popularity between FPS games and Worms, and then consider what are the chances of a group of people to pick up Worms and change everything, the graphics, the gameplay and make it work, I personally don't see it.
There were a fair number of people who put a lot of time and effort into creating all sorts of things for WA. Silkworm, Snooper, the Fiddler, etc (more recently CyberShadow's joined the scene). There have also been two people creating map editors for the 3D series. If a new 3D game could be as popular as WA was, I don't see that lack of people with talent would be a problem.

[yakuza]

I wouldn't consider that an issue. The worms series had enough fans to make sure there'd always be people playing the regular mode online.

No, not really. It's still a pain to find a game of Intermediate or Team17 most of the time.


That's not what happened in W:A...

Scheme editing is limited, modding isn't, the more the possibilities the more the game modes, unless this new 3D worms game has a much much bigger userbase than the latest games in the 3D series then I can guarantee you the competition will be totally descentralized.


This is a forum. We debate stuff. And if you get annoyed because someone tries to reasonably argue against your opinion, then you're not a very good forumer.

I'm not annoyed, I just don't like when you assume things.

Yakuza this is a thread about a 3D moddable game, if you don't like 3D then go away

I know you're trying to be recognized by people on the internet, and whilst I don't respect that, I accept it. It's funny though, because you don't seem to have a constant opinion, you just go with the flow, like a sheep.

Kilburn there are some people who will say they Hate 3D on this board and you will have to tolerate it. Not everyone likes 3D. I think you need to tell us what you mean, as people are not understanding you properly.

Of course, there's the fact I haven't said anything about 3D being bad, I'm sticking to the topic, but because you don't like what I'm saying you're acting retarded.

[Shadowmoon]

I am not trying to be recognized by people on the internet Yakuza, its you who wants to be recognized, you who is been stupid and silly. Its you.

[yakuza]

I am not trying to be recognized by people on the internet Yakuza, its you who wants to be recognized, you who is been stupid and silly. Its you.


Seeing as you missed a very clear point, I'll make it even clearer for you:

Kilburn there are some people who will say they Hate 3D on this board and you will have to tolerate it. Not everyone likes 3D

if you don't like 3D then go away

Of course, there's also the fact I haven't said anything against 3D worms in this thread, but I guess that's irrelevant for someone who just goes around picking random sides to get some attention.

[Shadowmoon]

Seeing as you missed a very clear point, I'll make it even clearer for you:





Of course, there's also the fact I haven't said anything against 3D worms in this thread, but I guess that's irrelevant for someone who just goes around picking random sides to get some attention.

Yakuza, you are getting this totally wrong. I am not picking random sides to get some attention. If you think that then whatever because i couldn't care less. What i am saying is that if you don't like modding, then you shouldn't really be replying to this thread. Don't post stupid comments like: not surprising at all a lot of my friends like football. This shows that you don't want a moddable game.

[MrBunsy]

Yakuza, you are getting this totally wrong. I am not picking random sides to get some attention. If you think that then whatever because i couldn't care less. What i am saying is that if you don't like modding, then you shouldn't really be replying to this thread. Don't post stupid comments like: not surprising at all a lot of my friends like football. This shows that you don't want a moddable game.He is entitled to post, even if he disagrees, you know. I don't happen to agree with yakuza's opinion, but to point out that you disagree with an idea is probably best done in the thread where that idea was presented.

[Shadowmoon]

He is entitled to post, even if he disagrees, you know. I don't happen to agree with yakuza's opinion, but to point out that you disagree with an idea is probably best done in the thread where that idea was presented.

Yeah, i know he is entitled to post. I am not dumb:mad: But one thing he can do is stop been a smarty pants.

[MrBunsy]

If you don't like modding or 3D games then leave this thread alone.

What i am saying is that if you don't like modding, then you shouldn't really be replying to this thread.

Yeah, i know he is entitled to post. I am not dumb:mad:
Mm mm?

[Shadowmoon]

Right okay argue over. I can detect that this will go on and on and on.