I'm going to reveal Open Discussion properly on Monday/Tuesday

[Squirminator2k]

Because, frankly, it's getting silly now.

Before people begin to leap to silly conclusions, no - I'm not one of the people who gave Iguana the screenshots. But I do think that the drama that's developing on this forum is getting a bit much now, and I think the time really has come to reveal the forum properly. I'm going to do that by this time tomorrow. What's more, I'm going to do it properly.

I'm going to explain why the forum is hidden and what the original criteria was for getting in. I'm going to explain why it became invite only, and I'm going to explain why there have been no invitations over the past few months. And, ultimately, I'm going to use it as a tool to explain why the forum has been in decline lately.

The forum hasn't been in decline because of OD, as many of the Anti-OD people seem to believe. The forum is in decline because people who join simply aren't following any sort of netiquette. There are a lot of rude people who know how to chuffing spell properly, and they don't bother to read other people's posts. They're not trying to have fun, they're here because they truly believe that the Internet is Serious Business. Specifically, he Anti-ODers seem to take the internet very seriously and appear to be offended that part of it may be inaccessible to them.

I'm not going to back it up with screenshots, or links, or anything else. I'm going to simply start a thread, and keep it going. This leaves you, the rest of OD, with two options. Either you support me, and we come up with a way of revealing OD together, properly within the next week, or you deny everything I'm going to say and watch me either get infracted or banned.

If the thread gets locked, the simple alternative is to post the information on Dream17. If I get banned, then fair enough. I've had a good run on the forum here, and it would be a shame to have to go out like that, but fair is fair. I can udnerstand why everyone wants to keep OD hidden but honestly I don't think it's necessary anymore. Maybe when there was a minimum post count requirement, but now? No. Not so much. We should let people know. We let them know it's Invite Only, and we explain why. We explain that invites only go to people who aren't rude and abusive, to people who are here to have fun and not to dіck around. Maybe that will improve things. Maybe it's an artificial way of improving things, but who knows? Maybe it'll work. The worst case scenario is that people can no longer cause havok by going "HERE'S A SCREENSHOT OF OD!" because they'll be able to freely talk about it. So will we.

I've made my choice. You have until 23:59 on Monday to make yours.

[SupSuper]

I just don't give a rat's ass anymore.

[FutureWorm]

this is an awfully melodramatic post

[Squirminator2k]

Yep! But then, this forum likes Drama these days, doesn't it?

[BetongÅsna]

this is an awfully melodramatic postTrue that, but he's got a point. From what I've just read over the past half an hour, this forum's been plunged into some big conspiracy theory, and that's never a good thing. No matter how much you dislike certain new members, it's never a good idea to put off the casual surfer by having quasi-poliotical ramblings all over the place. For what it's worth, and if I'm around, I'm with Ben.

[Paul.Power]

Yep! But then, this forum likes Drama these days, doesn't it?

Clearly someone pulled out the Drama tag.

Anyway, I know I suggested this a few days ago, but I was probably a bit depressed then. I'm not so sure now. It has its good points and bad points.

I certainly don't think you should be making a unilateral decision about this, though.

[Slick]

I say **** you all. I'm on my own completely from here on out.

[worMatty]

Ben, I agree that revealing OD has a few benefits but it is not your decision to make. I know you mean well but you risk alienating yourself from some of your friends who dwell here. If we are to move forward in to a new age of honesty and good posting then it's something we're best doing together, as a team.

Revealing OD should not be done in response to sabotage. It should not be done to alleviate our tension, as in reality we have only done wrong in the eyes of a few.

Revealing OD doesn't fix our internal problems. It doesn't change any bad attitudes. I can see from the chats I've had with a few of you, and from what we've said and done elsewhere that you've been so frustrated you find it hard to care. I appreciate that, I know it's difficult, and the past events have not improved upon matters. But this is one of those times when you don't throw down the towel. We should not sacrifice our years spent, just because it's easier.

The fact is that what has happened is partially our fault. We became lazy and abused our privilege by talking negatively about other forum users behind their backs. Yes, it was in private, but put yourself in their position and you would feel upset. I'm passionate about changing our mini community for the better and spreading that improvement out in to the forum. #worms on GameSurge has already started to take up this challenge, and most of them aren't aware of our plan!

There will be a time in future for OD's existence to be made public knowledge, but that time should be one of peace. We deserve it. Don't allow us to go out in a blaze of glory.

Personally, I recommend you take a break from all of this, Ben. You know what I mean. You can't do this without a clear head.

[Squirminator2k]

Here is what I intend to post. I'll be away over the weekend as I'm visiting family friends, so I would take this time to try and revise and update what I'd like to say so that we get the message across in a nice, peaceful manner.

The truth about Open Discussion

Over the past week or so, there have been some pretty petty people coming onto the forum and posting screenshots of a supposed private board on the Team17 Forum. Mostly, these people have been largely immature in their method of revelation. Posting porn sporatically throughout the forum, for example. Or setting up a separate forum just to bash the Team17 Veterans. I've poitned out that these people very clearly take the Internet very, very seriously, and the concept of being excluded from part of that network somehow offends them. You can't get onto my work's Interal network, either. Nor can you get into [Hell.com (http://www.hell.com/)]. I don't see much complaining going on about that.

I've sort of wandered away from the park trail here, which is OD. Open Discussion. Does it exist? Yes, pretty much. Is it invite only? Yes. It didn't used to be invite only, incidentally - when ti was first opened in 2003 it was accessible to anyone with more than 300 posts, excluding anyone who had Been Watched at any point. To prevent people articificially inflating their postcount by spamming up the forum, we were asked by APJ (who was the webmaster back in '04, you may recall) not to mention OD.

That seems kind of ironic now, actually.

There were a couple of people out there with a grudge against Team17, as a company, because of how the Worms Armageddon BETA update issue had been handled. One of these people was MrLee, who decided to post screenshots of OD. He promptly got hismelf excluded from OD as a result, and later banned. People now knew about OD, and what's more they knew the minimum requirements to gain entry. So in 2004 Sel (the webmaster who replaced APJ) changed the rules so that OD was invite only.

The forum began its decline a year later, following the release of Worms 4: Mayhem, and has been in a steady decline ever since. People who didn't lurk first, who didn't take the time to familiarise themselves with forum etiquette started posting poorly-spelt, poorly constructed gibberish. The FanArt forum, which has been about since 2003 I believe, began seeing some really, really bad art that, as Iguana correctly pointed out, people were responding to with "really cooooooooool ^_^" and such. The forum became a Bad Place to visit, and so the "Veterans" (as you have dubebd us) mostly retreated into OD. We knew the people in OD. We knew how the forum used to be, and we kept it that way - a fun environment. We occasionally poked our heads out every now and then but ultimately we stayed in OD. People outside of OD just didn't seem to get the forum.

Time passed, and it reached a Point of No Return - the accpetable standards on the forum now are so ridiculously low. People post any old tat and get praised for it. We recently tried to revive an enjoyable old forum tradition - the Worms Stories - and that was utterly ruined by some of the more recent posters with additions in the vain of "and then captainsirkillsabit appeared and gunned everyoen down with a machine gun lololol".

Behind all this, OD remained as a community for us Veterans to continue chatting without people coming in and ruining it. It offered us - some of us without chat clients or a way to regularly access one - a way of communicating with one another. Without OD, most of us would have left the forum a fair while ago. Without OD, we wouldn't have forged some bloody good friendships. Without OD, a number of us wouldn't have actually met in real life, just to socialise and hang out. We went bowling once. It was fun. Not as fun as Alton Towers, mind.

It's important to point out that people who stood out as fun members of the community were invited to OD. We invited people who visited the forum because it was fun, who were great company. We didn't invite people who, for example, went about flaming or being rude and/or abusive. And we haven't invited anyone in a while because, to be honest, most of the posts on the forum now appear to be rather spammy.

OD isn't about lording it over people without access. We would love to invite more people in, and when we spot people who are fun to chat with we let them in. If you're ni a chatroom and, past all the people saying things like "13/M/CA NE1 WANNA CHAT???????" or discussing Cheese in the Yahoo! Abortion group, you have a conversation with someone who is fun to chat with, you'er going to add them to your Friends List, and that's effectively what we did.

Don't hold a grudge against us for trying to continue our enjoyment of the forum. Similarly, don't hold a grudge against us because you're not able to get into OD. If you start contributing to the forum, to the community, then you'll get in. Honestly. Just try to have fun, and try to enjoy the website. That's how it works. I'd love to see the OD community expand, but more improtantly I'd love to see the rest of this forum become a fun place to post again. If the forum becomes fun then, well, maybe there won't be a need for OD anymore.

Remember: OD in its current form was created because someone with a bitter grudge wanted to ruin the forum for the rest of us. Now there are people who want to ruin the forum for the rest of us by revealing OD. It's a vicious cycle, and it really should end here. We can do that together.


Edit: I tried to take a break, Matty. It didn't work - I got sucked back in. Right now, I just want things fixed and this seems to be one step on the road to doing that.

[worMatty]

I know you do, mate, but this is not the path we should take. I want you to work with me, we can do it together. As I said to Slick, your life is intertwined with OD. Many of the aspects of your online life are associated with it. We've been doing this for years. Don't let the actions of a handful of people spoil it.

Your feelings are shared by the majority of us, I think. And because of that, we can find it hard to work out the best course of action. I wish you and I could talk freely but our timezones are incompatible. Dan feels the same, but he's soldiering on in the background with that relentless Portugese determination.

[philby4000]

Everyone knows, why bother hidding it anymore?

The more we deny it the more stupid OMG OD EXISTS PROOF. posts we'll get from ridiculous internet martyrs.

You have my suport, Ben.

[Slick]

Look out in the forum. Nobody gives a flying ****.


Really. They DON'T. They aren't making a big deal of it, had a good idea that OD existed for a while now anyways. I don't see them flipping out about it. The newbs like poninja are just as clueless as ever. IT ALL DOESNT MATTER PEOPLE. IT REALLY DOESNT.

You are ALL making a big ****ing DEAL ABOUT A ****ING SITUATION THAT DOESNT EVEN ****ING EXIST!
"OH BUT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SPAMMING EVERYWHERE I CANT STAND THE SIGHT OF L:JOWLOLOLOLOLO" I havent seen ANYTHING like that, except for the retards who are just EGGING YOU ALL ON! And you know what? YOUR LETTING THEM WIN!
Whats going to change if we do this? NOTHING.

Most of you are just flat out getting on my nerves.

[Pigbuster]

I say **** you all. I'm on my own completely from here on out.

If you go somewhere else, please tell me where. I really don't want you to disappear entirely.
I guess there's DA, but I don't really like DA.

[Star Worms]

I think the place would become far better if the T17 staff interacted like they used to. Note: I'm not putting the blame on them at all, but they do have a responsibility to the forum, as it is part of the company they work for. I think a few posts every now and then about what they've been doing, or maybe even some hints of what games could be instore (although that would probably depend on if the Publisher would allow it).

We've been complaining that the community has started to collapse. Well, it's still here in OD. What about those other members such as Plasma, Alien King and the like? They've been around for some time now. They don't have OD. It's probably hit them hardest, as we still have this place to come to. The community has become quite split between those in OD, and those not. I certainly don't seem to interact with members outside of OD, mostly because I've chosen not to reveal my MSN address because I got strangers adding me.

We could also consider having a General Discussion, where people are added when they've made 50 or so posts. I don't think it's been suggested before. It may seem pointless to have OD and GD, but at least that way, they'll be able to talk about whatever they like, which will make them happy.

I also think we've denied access to several users because of how they used to be. Aku isn't here anymore, but he was never let in, and wasn't a bad poster, neither was Alien King. We never really gave them a chance. I think we should be letting in more people than we do, or valued members of the forum who are not invited to OD will leave.

Screenshots of OD have now been posted to the new forum that has been created. We can't get rid of them. We'll have to reveal OD at some point. Secondly, they are also deliberately trying to recuit newbies to their forum, away from this one.

I think the forum has partly started to turn a bit dead simply because of the lack of Worms PC (or major console) games. I think once new games are released, we'll get a new wave of members, but at the moment I think we do need to reveal OD in the hope that some of those members do stay around here rather than be fed lies about OD by people like Iguana - because at the moment OD is being portrayed as a place where us "elites" look down on the rest of the forum. I mean the "ban plasma" thread isn't an accurate representation of OD, but that's how it looks to people outside. It's not that it's been leaked that we should be worried - it's because many members are now leaving because of it. Sure, OD has been leaked before, but we've always banned those involved and moved on. Even if we banned those involved, and those in OD leaking the screenshots, those members would still leave (perhaps a good thing, mind you, considering their now obvious views about the forum, and it's members).

[Pigbuster]

Look out in the forum. Nobody gives a flying ****.


Really. They DON'T. They aren't making a big deal of it, had a good idea that OD existed for a while now anyways. I don't see them flipping out about it. The newbs like poninja are just as clueless as ever. IT ALL DOESNT MATTER PEOPLE. IT REALLY DOESNT.

You are ALL making a big ****ing DEAL ABOUT A ****ING SITUATION THAT DOESNT EVEN ****ING EXIST!
"OH BUT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SPAMMING EVERYWHERE I CANT STAND THE SIGHT OF L:JOWLOLOLOLOLO" I havent seen ANYTHING like that, except for the retards who are just EGGING YOU ALL ON! And you know what? YOUR LETTING THEM WIN!
Whats going to change if we do this? NOTHING.

Most of you are just flat out getting on my nerves.
It might stop those people from posting crap.
...actually, it probably wouldn't, as we sure as heck aren't going to make OD open to the public, and that's exactly what seems to make them hate it.
They wouldn't have anything against us, though. RIght now all they can do is post screencaps. If we reveal it, that wouldn't really mean anything anymore.

[Squirminator2k]

I understand people's concerns. I also understand Slick's point that we're perhaps making a mountain out of a molehill. But this isn't so much about revealing OD's existence as it is using that revelation as a tool to improve the forum.

I want this forum to be fun again, and I think the first step towards doing that is to make everyone else aware of OD via a method other than leaking screenshots out. I want to know who did that not because I want to see something done, but because I want to know why they did it. I imagine it's much the same motive as me - the forum just isn't fun anymore.

Let's try to change that.

I'm going to do this on Monday. Would you rather we were a unified front, standing together to try and make things better? I know that's how I'd prefer it to be. I'd rather we made the announcement together, as a unit. But I'm a realist - I know not everyone agrees with me.

[SomePerson]

What if we went back to a certain post count regaining entry again? Because before then OD was secret, but it wasn't so exclusive. Sure we had awkward people join. But it was alright at the time. Now we've become entirely exclusivist, and I think that might be what's killing us.

Then again suddenly changing that to like 1000 posts might make a big influx in members...

[Squirminator2k]

What if we went back to a certain post count regaining entry again? Because before then OD was secret, but it wasn't so exclusive. Sure we had awkward people join. But it was alright at the time. Now we've become entirely exclusivist, and I think that might be what's killing us.

Then again suddenly changing that to like 1000 posts might make a big influx in members...

I fully support this idea, provided access is still barred to individuals who are posting utter shash. Like cowboyz, for example. Almost all of his posts are spam. In fact I received this PM from him the other day:

if ur so in love with team17
why dont u marry them

LAWLZ!!!

[Pigbuster]

I understand people's concerns. I also understand Slick's point that we're perhaps making a mountain out of a molehill. But this isn't so much about revealing OD's existence as it is using that revelation as a tool to improve the forum.

I want this forum to be fun again, and I think the first step towards doing that is to make everyone else aware of OD via a method other than leaking screenshots out. I want to know who did that not because I want to see something done, but because I want to know why they did it. I imagine it's much the same motive as me - the forum just isn't fun anymore.

Let's try to change that.

I'm going to do this on Monday. Would you rather we were a unified front, standing together to try and make things better? I know that's how I'd prefer it to be. I'd rather we made the announcement together, as a unit. But I'm a realist - I know not everyone agrees with me.

They hate OD mostly because it is a secret gated community, where we talk about banning Plasma and avatar fads and how Iguana wasn't there and LOL'd at Akuryou.
This is also the one place where we can talk about serious things, but I doubt they know/care about that.

And there's no way we're making this place public, so they're probably going to keep whining. I'm all for making OD public. It would mean they couldn't do anything, and that they couldn't make they're "I TALKED ABOUT OD OOPS NOW I'M GOING TO BE BANNED LOL AND IT WAS TOTALLY BECAUSE I JUST MENTIONED OD AND NOT BECAUSE I WAS SPAMMING OR ANYTHING" argument anymore.

I can't really imagine people saying "OD NOW" too much, as long as we make it clear that if you have to ask, you're likely not going to get it.


Also, a much more important part of making this forum more fun is going out and making it more fun.
Make a post that ISN'T in response to a dumb post.
Actually USE the ignore list. Seriously. It is there. Plasma annoys you? You don't have to listen to him. Maybe if you don't see the posts of people who annoy you you can enjoy yourself more. I dunno. I'm not you.
Fan Art is crappy? Yes it is. Why don't you make some good art and make it serve as a model for the other artists? It would help a lot more than throwing insults around. The reason I keep stopping my comics is because the only people who ever comment on them are not the people I am making them for.
People are messing up the forum story thread? Well hey, it's easy to change any "EVERYONE DIES" back to the real plotline, AND you can be quite funny about it at the same time! Of course, you could also just give up and let it go to hell. That's fun.

Hell, the OD-haters hate OD because they think we're being elitist. Maybe we shouldn't be elitist.

[Slick]

S2K, you don't have the right/responsibility to just go ahead and do this. You just don't. And you do realize, by doing this, you are infact, joining the likes of them. Not in the same way, but it is the same. You feel that for some odd reason having people read a thread that exposes OD as a real place is going to help.

How?

Really, face reality. The ONLY way to at least make SOME difference, is to go out there and do it for yourself. That isn't going to make all the difference, no. But it will make some. Saying "Hello thar peoples with faces, OD is a secret forum. Your not in it because of :LONG LIST: Try to be a better poster and maybe you'll get in." That isn't going to even do some difference.

*looks at the "Awesome Thread" he made* Yeah, it's not going to do CRAP. Why did I make that thread? Same reason you want to reveal OD. To improve peoples art by making them try to work hard on something, and then submit it. Then you get into the "awesome thread". Only replace art, with posting.

Please, consider what I'm saying as a person who has already tried something like this. You'll just end up wasting time. But only this time, your taking people down the tube with you.

[philby4000]

Look out in the forum. Nobody gives a flying ****.


Really. They DON'T. They aren't making a big deal of it, had a good idea that OD existed for a while now anyways. I don't see them flipping out about it. The newbs like poninja are just as clueless as ever. IT ALL DOESNT MATTER PEOPLE. IT REALLY DOESNT.

You are ALL making a big ****ing DEAL ABOUT A ****ING SITUATION THAT DOESNT EVEN ****ING EXIST!
"OH BUT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE SPAMMING EVERYWHERE I CANT STAND THE SIGHT OF L:JOWLOLOLOLOLO" I havent seen ANYTHING like that, except for the retards who are just EGGING YOU ALL ON! And you know what? YOUR LETTING THEM WIN!
Whats going to change if we do this? NOTHING.

Most of you are just flat out getting on my nerves.
I'm mostly concerned with the bunch of people on the 'unhappy end' forum that obviously do give a crap about OD and won't shutup anbout it.

We reveal OD, They take their little victory and hopefully stop making alt accounts to post the shockking truth about the secret forum.

[Squirminator2k]

S2K, you don't have the right/responsibility to just go ahead and do this. You just don't.

No, I don't. But I'm offering people the chance to join me, and ultimately I'm trying to do something for the better of the forum. Sometimes you have to stop doing what's allowed and start doing what's right.

And you do realize, by doing this, you are infact, joining the likes of them. Not in the same way, but it is the same. You feel that for some odd reason having people read a thread that exposes OD as a real place is going to help.
I think it will make a difference, yes.

How?

If people know about the forum, and know that they can get in if they behave like civilized human beings, then maybe, just maybe, they'll start acting like civilized human beings. It's per-sychology. People have an overwhelming urge to open doors that are locked, which is one of the reasons the anti-OD crowd are so anti-OD - they can't pick the lock, so they can't see what's going on. All they get is occasional screenshots and second-hand comments from people who do have access. So why not just tell them it's here?

Really, face reality. The ONLY way to at least make SOME difference, is to go out there and do it for yourself. That isn't going to make all the difference, no. But it will make some. Saying "Hello thar peoples with faces, OD is a secret forum. Your not in it because of :LONG LIST: Try to be a better poster and maybe you'll get in." That isn't going to even do some difference.
I think you're wrong, and I'll (hopefully) prove it.

*looks at the "Awesome Thread" he made* Yeah, it's not going to do CRAP. Why did I make that thread? Same reason you want to reveal OD. To improve peoples art by making them try to work hard on something, and then submit it. Then you get into the "awesome thread". Only replace art, with posting.
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here,

Please, consider what I'm saying as a person who has already tried something like this. You'll just end up wasting time. But only this time, your taking people down the tube with you.

Care to elaborate?

[Slick]

Think about it. Do you think they are actually mature enough to process all that anyways? They are just a bunch of puppets. I don't really think they DO care about OD. From who I've talked to and what I've seen... they have grudges against people like FW, S2K, ect. and they are attacking everyone in here, to get to them. Every time Iguana tried to explain why this forum is wrong, he would always, and I mean always... give an example of FW or S2K. Saying that we all sit here, back modding, and we control the rules of this forum.

Yeah, whatever.

[Squirminator2k]

If they don't care about OD specifically then revealing OD ultimately won't matter, will it?

[SupSuper]

I've had a good mind to just create a thread "Title: Yes, there is an Open Discussion. Text: Any questions?"

[Slick]

If they don't care about OD specifically then revealing OD ultimately won't matter, will it?

Not really, no.
So why bother, when I know, other people here would rather not do it? It's forcing something that they don't want on them.

[Squirminator2k]

Then the thread will be deleted, just as the posts with the screenshots in them were.

I'll also post it on Dream17, of course...

[Pigbuster]

I think it will make a difference, yes.

The OD-haters are going to hate OD just as much as they always have, you realize.

They are p!ssed because they think people like Futureworm are able to flame and spam people as much as they want and they won't get in trouble because they are in OD. (That's why you get so much "attention", Futureworm. They don't find your stuff funny.)

[FutureWorm]

Think about it. Do you think they are actually mature enough to process all that anyways? They are just a bunch of puppets. I don't really think they DO care about OD. From who I've talked to and what I've seen... they have grudges against people like FW, S2K, ect. and they are attacking everyone in here, to get to them. Every time Iguana tried to explain why this forum is wrong, he would always, and I mean always... give an example of FW or S2K. Saying that we all sit here, back modding, and we control the rules of this forum.

Yeah, whatever.

its me, im the secret brain behind od
The OD-haters are going to hate OD just as much as they always have, you realize.

They are p!ssed because they think people like Futureworm are able to flame and spam people as much as they want and they won't get in trouble because they are in OD. (That's why you get so much "attention", Futureworm. They don't find your stuff funny.)

you know, if it bothers you guys i'd be more than willing to cut it out

for what it's worth, i've gotten a good few infractions myself and come quite close to being watched, but that's generally a warning that i'm taking it too far

[Squirminator2k]

I find it hilarious that they think I wield some kind of actual power.

[Pigbuster]

for what it's worth, i've gotten a good few infractions myself and come quite close to being watched, but that's generally a warning that i'm taking it too far

I actually find most of your stuff quite funny (Especially Eric Prydz - Call On Me.)
But you do silly stuff sometimes. SILLY SONGS.

[Slick]

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=605673&postcount=95


hurr hurr look at me im an elitist person im so popular that when i **** people fight for it and im a jerk to about everyone

durr hurr look at me im a supposidely bored person wanting to do drama for no reason whatsoever but its funny so ill do it anyway not caring whats gonna happen

Bandwagons are shinny.

This is the kind of person/people you want to try to agree with?



...:confused:

[FutureWorm]

No, I don't. But I'm offering people the chance to join me, and ultimately I'm trying to do something for the better of the forum. Sometimes you have to stop doing what's allowed and start doing what's right.
No you're not. You're taking a unilateral action without getting other people's approval to do so.

I mean, I think it's pretty much pointless to not reveal OD at this point, given that it's been exposed to anyone with half a brain, but that doesn't change the facts.

[Squirminator2k]

No you're not. You're taking a unilateral action without getting other people's approval to do so.
True. But I am giving people the chance to join in that action.

I mean, I think it's pretty much pointless to not reveal OD at this point, given that it's been exposed to anyone with half a brain, but that doesn't change the facts.

Also true. And I'm going to do it anyway.

[SomePerson]

Look, I have a load of respect for you, and I always have. But I do think if we do reveal OD, we have to do it TOGETHER and that no single person should have the right to do so.

I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't do anything rash. I'm willing to consider reforms to the forum, but I don't think we should act on a whim. Especially one person's whim which is contrary to many others'...


I'm certain they know about this thread and are creaming themselves right now.


True. But I am giving people the chance to join in that action.

So you're being rash and ignoring the advice of many, going in anyways, and if people want to join you or not is OK, but you're going in anyways?

As much as I hate to make the comparison, you're starting to sound like Bush going into Iraq...:-/ Sorry, but it does remind me of that...

[Pigbuster]

I'm certain they know about this thread and are creaming themselves right now.

Ugh.

I made a post right around now, but it's too personal for those people to see. Guess Thomasp will have to deal with my emotional baggage.

[Squirminator2k]

As much as I hate to make the comparison, you're starting to sound like Bush going into Iraq...:-/ Sorry, but it does remind me of that...

True, but I'm not asking anyone to lay down their lives for what I believe to be right.

[Vader]

I'm a big believer in the community. I always have been and I think I've demonstrated that throughout my involvement. I mean, back in the days of The Allotment we had the Community Forum. That was my idea and I came up with it to help unite the community as a whole.

These days I think of the community differently. I don't conisder it a mass of people who enjoy Worms and have a Worms website or post on Worms forums. These days, I only really consider the veterans and a few non-ODers to be part of the community proper. The rest are just 'net surfers, trolls and idiots.

I like the reasoning behind your arguement, Ben, although I don't think revealing OD will benefit anyone. I think it will fuel the fire for those who conspire (or should that be conspyre? Baddum-tccchhh!) and turn those who wish to be part of OD to brown-nosing. Sure, there would be a few who put in the extra effort but surely, if they wish to be part of the community proper, that effort would be worth making regardless of OD's existence. I mean, it did for us lot, right?

I think what I'd do is create a second account purely to reply to OD conspiracies with the likes of "So what? It's not like we're missing out on anything... they just have discussions we can't see. Aren't you enjoying the discussions you're in at the moment?" and so forth. Obviously some non-OD related post would have to be made to make it a believable account, but that could also be quite good fun. It would be like trolling but without being an arsehat.

We could even make a communal account for this very purpose; an account we can all access and use to our advantage. A Trojan horse of sorts. I certainly trust enough of you to believe it wouldn't be abused, though I guess it's risky. Having said that, we might just be able to defuse enough situations that people genuinely stop caring.

Could it be worth a shot?


edit: I just realised it would be an inverted Trojan horse being sent from inside the fortress to bend the minds of those on the outside. So, what's the opposite of a horse? Ummm... a fish? Cool. A Trojan Fish™ it is.

[Squirminator2k]

WHich would be a good idea if we didn't have a Mole who was reporting the goings on within OD to the Outside World.

Maybe it's best, then, to just lock up OD and be done with it.

[Vader]

WHich would be a good idea if we didn't have a Mole who was reporting the goings on within OD to the Outside World.

Maybe it's best, then, to just lock up OD and be done with it.

Oh yeah. Well my excuse is that it's 8am and I've not been to bed yet.

Why don't we just ask everyone if they're the Mole?

Oh, and then ban them.

[Squirminator2k]

Better yet we could make the entire forum read-only, and then block the people we want to make fun of.

[Squirminator2k]

I've just revealed OD on Dream17.

Revealed the brand new Open Discussion forum on Dream17, that is! I've simplified the forum based on Run's First Theory of Wotsit, and a whole heap of forums have been amalgamated into a new Open Discussion. You can use it if you like. You're under no obligation.

I've decided not to reveal T17's OD for now, but I do think it's something we need to seriously consider. And soon. We can't tip-toe around it forever.

[FutureWorm]

I've decided not to reveal T17's OD for now, but I do think it's something we need to seriously consider. And soon. We can't tip-toe around it forever.

revealing od won't change the fundamental problems with the forum right now, nor the fact that insufferable people keep posting screenshots

[Star Worms]

Actually, I've changed my tune a bit. I don't think revealling OD would change a thing. Just ban the spammers and those in OD releasing the screenshots. They're just immature teens messing around. I'd rather they left than stayed. They've clearly made their decision too.

[thomasp]

I've only skimmed through this thread, but I feel as a mod I should probably throw my opinions in. I'll try to keep them brief, as I've noticed a lot of posts in here are quite long :D


Point One.
Usermods now have IP check facilities and have the ability to see who else is posting under that IP check - this reveals the identity of the newly-registered users, who don't use proxies.

6-month bans are being issued out for "Extreme behaviour" to those posting screenshots around the place, as I consider that pretty bad spamming.

An idea was passed around in the mods forum (by volcadmin) that newly registered users have their first few posts pre-moderated. This was actually to stop the spambots from wreaking too much havoc on the forums, but it would also serve its purpose once "leakers" have been banned, as they then wouldn't be able to post anything else. Initially, myself and Andrew dismissed this (before this latest wave of leaking) as there wasn't really the need for it. We could still implement it though.


Point Two
Reading some of the posts in the "Good Bye" thread, users outside of OD don't really care. Alien King didn't appear to care. Revealing OD isn't really going to do that much, I don't think.


Point Three.
I personally would rather you waited a bit before doing anything drastic, Ben. There have only been two leaks recently (I think...). I don't think we should do anything too drastic yet. By revealing OD suddenly like this, we are just giving into the leakers.


Point Four.
I don't really think such a "reveal" should be posted by you (or any of the members) - probably be better for a usermod to do it.


Point Five.
Your "reveal" is a bit wordy, Ben, and people would probably lose interest. Here's what I would write.


There have been some "leaks" recently indicating that there is a "secret", "invite-only" forum. It is probably best for everyone if we set the record straight.

Yes, there is a forum that is only accessible to a few members, and yes it is invite only. And, yes it is called "Open Discussion"

When it was originally created, back when APJ was a webmaster, you needed 300 posts to get in, but as that created a lot of spamming, it was changed to "invite only"

Members now get invited through polls created inside OD where "ODers" nominate those forum members that they think are worthy of entering - usually the top two or three get their access permissions changed to allow them entry.


As we have now revealed OD, it will be staying Invite Only and we will still be inviting new members. However, we will only invite you in if you are a good, helpful forum member who is generally of use to the community. A great way to insure you're never invited into OD is to ask to be invited in :p (also, being Banned or being watched helps)


We all hope you can understand this and are willing to accept this - it may even make the forum a better place to be!

[Slick]

Only if the admin would give you the OK to do that, would I back up you posting something like that, thomasp.

If you honestly feel that people should know... How about next time it is ever brought up, people don't go lying through their teeth trying to cover it up?

Solution to the problem everyone.

>>> Just stop denying OD exist to people, WHEN it is brought up. <<<

And if you don't feel like people should know, then you don't have to post anything at all.
Yay, everyone wins. Can we move on with our lives now?

[thomasp]

Rather than stop denying OD exists, simply the best thing to do is just to NOT REPLY IF OD IS LEAKED

By not replying, you're not digging a deeper hole, etc, etc, etc.


Which is why I'd rather OD wasn't revealed.

[KRD]

I definitely agree with Slick on this.

Doing anything other than ignoring silly people who don't even deny the fact their only intention is to cause drama would be irrational. File some bad post reports, let the moderators handle it and they'll eventually go away.

It worked for other forums in this community and, believe it or not, quite a few of the people who began by causing trouble [initiating attention-whoring ideas like persuading people to get mass banned with them, coming up with conspiracy theories about secret societies pulling the strings from the shadows and generally rioting about everything that isn't their post] came to their senses as they grew up, came forward admitting their mistakes and lived on contributing, in some cases a great deal, to the general atmosphere in the community.

I believe doing anything more would rob them of the opportunity to become better posters without looking suspicious. If everyone knew OD existed, how would you tell the genuinely friendly and intelligent people from those who'll pretend to be that way with the intention to get in here?

[worMatty]

I agree with you, Tom. When there's been a leak, not replying at all is the best strategy. Also, becoming invisible helps too.

I'm thrilled you lot want to help make the whole community a better place, but if I may, I'd like to recall a point I made recently. If we keep all the good posters in here, the outside will suffer. If we're to keep going and recruit new members we should commit to spending time outside OD, contributing to the wider world.

For anyone that doesn't know, it seems our good intentions have not gone unnoticed. Some outsiders are taking up the challenge themselves. We only discussed improving things and the effect spread outside. I think Greg (KRD) will agree with me. We could make it how Stef (Vader) remembers it.

And yes, Andy, maybe some Team17 staff should post a bit more. I know they're busy but even one post per day from a handful of people would have a big effect.

[Zero72]

...quite a few of the people who began by causing trouble [initiating attention-whoring ideas like persuading people to get mass banned with them, coming up with conspiracy theories about secret societies pulling the strings from the shadows and generally rioting about everything that isn't their post] came to their senses as they grew up, came forward admitting their mistakes and lived on contributing, in some cases a great deal, to the general atmosphere in the community.I think Iguana went the other way around. I wouldn't say he's always been a really upstanding community member, but he stayed well within the lines until he decided to start waving torches and pitchforks around about OD.

[thomasp]

Also, I'd like to point something out - just because you have access to OD doesn't make you immune to infraction points, Being Watched statuses and Bans :p If the mods (well, me probably :p) feel that a user in OD is not helping the cause when a leak appears (by creating an unnecessary amount of denial spam), we may well throw a few infraction points around.

[worMatty]

The same should apply for unnecessary negative comments about other people, regardless of what they've done. There is nothing to gain in tit-for-tat attacks.

Let's drop any opportunity we have to dig at Iguana, shall we? Enough's been said already.

[Slick]

If the mods (well, me probably :p) feel that a user in OD is not helping the cause when a leak appears (by creating an unnecessary amount of denial spam), we may well throw a few infraction points around.

Wow. I'm glad that doesn't include ducks.:p

[MadEwokHerd]

I've been mostly silent through all this (and I arrived late for most of the happenings), but I might as well say this:

I do not have strong feelings about whether OD is revealed. If the rest of the community decides to reveal it, I will talk about it if it seems I have something to say. If S2K had decided to make that post (I'd call that the rest of the community revealing it, even if others disagree), I'd have replied. Otherwise, I'll just keep silent if I see it mentioned on the forums.

I also won't lie to cover it up. If someone asks me questions in private, I might answer them.

And I'm afraid I won't be visiting Dream17 forums until they can give me a listing of recent posts from any subforum.

[SupSuper]

And I'm afraid I won't be visiting Dream17 forums until they can give me a listing of recent posts from any subforum.Erm, isn't "View unanswered posts • View new posts • View active topics" in the index good enough for you?

[Run]

Erm, isn't "View unanswered posts • View new posts • View active topics" in the index good enough for you?

Maybe he's tried that but there just aren't any recent posts ;)

[MadEwokHerd]

I only have "View unanswered posts • View active topics"

Edit: Oh, I wasn't logged in for some reason.

[Pigbuster]

Well, I guess it's Monday/Tuesday now.

...could you maybe sleep on this idea for now? Things seem to have died down a bit, and I think some people have made their point.
You're probably not going to get enough support to do something like this right now.

It's probably a lot better to keep OD "secret" at the mo'.

[Squirminator2k]

I've decided not to reveal T17's OD for now, but I do think it's something we need to seriously consider. And soon. We can't tip-toe around it forever.

I'd already changed my mind. Maybe I should put this in my Signature so people can see it :p

[Xinos]

Here's my view on the matter. For years I have enjoyed the entire forum, but I've alwase felt a bit left out, maybe it's because I don't live in the UK and don't find your local news that exciting or important, or because I can't go to the OD get togethers. In either case this is a place where all you brittish folk hang out and the rest come and go. I never get the attention other people get, nobody ever mentions or talks about me like you guys talk about each other, "Oh, like that time Paul was having thoose opinions" - and the like. This place is more than just an online community, you people from the UK have built a more internal close friendship that seperates you from the rest of the forum. I don't mind, but it might be something to consider. And it might be why I fail to care about all this as much as you do.

Now, I think that this internal OD political rampage has been the worst blow to the forum yet. NOT the reveiling of OD by Iguana and whoevers, but the reaction in here that came from that. Ever since all theese threads withing OD about OD have sprung up, this place has been increadibly boring. I just want to forget about this incident and move on, but I can't aslong as everybody is making a big deal about it. Weather or not OD is revealed, I doubt that the outside comunity gives a damn, some might, but it will be proportional to the ammount of drama involved in revealing it. And a few upset people outside of OD isn't as troubleling as everybody being upset within OD. In short, I don't really care what course of action you take on this, aslong as you guys can go back to discussing other things than OD itself, because as I said, it's been the most damaging event so far.

[thomasp]

If you want to reveal OD, now is not the time to do it. You want to wait until this whole leaking nonsense has blown over, or everyone else has been banned from the forum for leaking OD, whichever happens sooner :p

[AndrewTaylor]

I bet it's that Tanya Buck.

[worMatty]

Normal service has resumed, Xinos, but some people are still a bit upset and reluctant to post. Also, I think OD was taking a break from good posting anyway. Let's say the OD moon is waning, and a new OD moon is about to come.

Post some new threads and make them interesting. Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution!

[AndrewTaylor]

If it'd help, I could rename all the threads on the front page to very boring things so nobody posts any more screens.

[SomePerson]

"positive ducks" "negative ducks" "I'm going duck watching for a longish period of time" "list of ducks" "PLEASE DUCK BEFORE POSTING" "I'm going to reveal myself to ducks Monday/Tuesday" "Ladies and Gentlemen, Ducks"

ok maybe I should stop...

[Squirminator2k]

Yes. Then delete the post saying you're going to do that. Then delete this post. Then... delete all the posts.

Actually, that's probably going too far.

[Paul.Power]

"positive ducks" "negative ducks" "I'm going duck watching for a longish period of time" "list of ducks" "PLEASE DUCK BEFORE POSTING" "I'm going to reveal myself to ducks Monday/Tuesday" "Ladies and Gentlemen, Ducks"

ok maybe I should stop...

The 100% Duck Topic Thread

[Pickleworm]

Rename this thread to ".999... and 1... let's settle it NOW" and people who see the screenshots won't care about OD anymore

[Paul.Power]

Ooh, ooh!

The 99.9 Recurring% Off-Topic Thread

[Xinos]

"positive ducks" "negative ducks" "I'm going duck watching for a longish period of time" "list of ducks" "PLEASE DUCK BEFORE POSTING" "I'm going to reveal myself to ducks Monday/Tuesday" "Ladies and Gentlemen, Ducks"

ok maybe I should stop...

Please do, I dislike that word for some reason. No, not because it rhymes with ****, I like that word.

[SomePerson]

That was my sister's first word...:p

[AndrewTaylor]

Ooh, ooh!

The 99.9 Recurring% Off-Topic Thread

We may have done that. I think I've repeated one or two already, mind.

[SomePerson]

What if we try one of those picture stories like was started with Vader and K^2? That was potentially the most fun thread ever...

[AndrewTaylor]

That was a great thread.

[worMatty]

Do It.

......

[thomasp]

What if we try one of those picture stories like was started with Vader and K^2? That was potentially the most fun thread ever...
Link for those of us too lazy to search?

[Paul.Power]

One prob with that thread was that it was rather spontaneous, with K^2 saying something clever and Vader making a cartoon saying "GIVE ME YOUR BRAIN!"... and it escalated from there.

But yeah, we can have a go. Who wants to start?


EDIT: Oh, me.

[SomePerson]

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17910&highlight=leave&page=2

It started in that thread, and then moved to http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18011

[bonz]

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17910&highlight=leave&page=2

It started in that thread, and then moved to http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18011
Well, everyone read up on the previous happenings in those two threads and then let's continue where it was left off:
http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?p=257971#post257971