Bug Report: Neutral Mine Damage

[Haoshiro]

Problem:
Damage from Neutral Mines does not get calculated until a player turn ends.

Classification:
Minor. Effects strategy and confuses players.

Steps to reproduce:
Choose the Shotgun, then shoot the first shot at a worm, knocking it onto a mine.

You should see that the target gets hurt for ~25 from the shotgun, but the blast from the mine seems to have not hurt it at all.

Now fire your last shot anywhere, even at the same target. Once the turn ends you will see the worm lose the hp from the mine blast (as well as the second shot, if it was hit).

[Luther]

Actually what you are reporting is the anomaly in the mechanics of the shotgun, which causes it's damage during and also at the end of a turn. Mine, fall and all other damage is always removed at the end of the turn. It's the shotgun's double shot that breaks the normal game rules. The shotgun is by far the most difficult weapon to fit into the game.

So, there you go. Only shotgun damage is removed mid turn.

[Haoshiro]

Actually what you are reporting is the anomaly in the mechanics of the shotgun, which causes it's damage during and also at the end of a turn. Mine, fall and all other damage is always removed at the end of the turn. It's the shotgun's double shot that breaks the normal game rules. The shotgun is by far the most difficult weapon to fit into the game.

So, there you go. Only shotgun damage is removed mid turn.

Right, but mine damage should be because it is very confusing and causes strategic issues.

Say a worm has 35 HP, and you shoot him into a mine... but when he lands it still shows he has 10 HP; at that point a player might waste their second shot to kill the worm that was actually already dead.

In the same scenario that also means the worm would not be killed mid turn, and this not blow up... effectively breaking the game even more. His death detonation might have exploded a barrel, killed additional worms, etc etc.

[quakerworm]

hmm... what happens if you trigger a mine with the rope. does that wait until the end of turn also?

i suppose, the reason they have done it this way is so that the damage shows up after the retreat timer has ran out. i think, a nicer way of handling this would have been to have damage computed continuously, and be "frozen" if the retreat timer is active. two birds with one stone, but the code would be a bit more complex.

[WuTang]

you guys sure complain a lot about such trivial things.

"OMG my strategy is completely off because i cant count and dont know how much damage he took from the mine! now hes going to ninja rope glitch me because i know he has exactly two left and can do it so im going to report him!"


seriously these things are what make the game and glitches or bugs to me because if you actually think about it, like you are obviously too lazy to do, there is still strategy involved. , ( i know its hard, you may actually have to remember if he used his ninja rope or calculate how much damage he took from your shotgun/mine combo),

people seem to get all riled up and complain about such small things.

[parsley]

hmm... what happens if you trigger a mine with the rope. does that wait until the end of turn also?

i suppose, the reason they have done it this way is so that the damage shows up after the retreat timer has ran out. i think, a nicer way of handling this would have been to have damage computed continuously, and be "frozen" if the retreat timer is active. two birds with one stone, but the code would be a bit more complex.
And the shotgun wouldn't work.

[quakerworm]

And the shotgun wouldn't work.
not sure what you mean. in a scheme like that, the first shotgun shot does not trigger the retreat timer, so the damage is accounted for and displayed right away, as well as any damage due to mines. second shot would trigger the retreat timer, causing the game to halt the damage display until the retreat timer ran out. it would work the same as it does now, except that the damage done by mines in the middle of the turn would be displayed right away.

[Haoshiro]

you guys sure complain a lot about such trivial things.

"OMG my strategy is completely off because i cant count and dont know how much damage he took from the mine! now hes going to ninja rope glitch me because i know he has exactly two left and can do it so im going to report him!"


seriously these things are what make the game and glitches or bugs to me because if you actually think about it, like you are obviously too lazy to do, there is still strategy involved. , ( i know its hard, you may actually have to remember if he used his ninja rope or calculate how much damage he took from your shotgun/mine combo),

people seem to get all riled up and complain about such small things.

Regardless, it is a bug and that is why I reported it. A worm that doesn't die when all his HP should be gone (such as the scenario I outlined) is definitely a bug, my feelings towards it doesn't change that either way.

[Luther]

Regardless, it is a bug and that is why I reported it. A worm that doesn't die when all his HP should be gone (such as the scenario I outlined) is definitely a bug, my feelings towards it doesn't change that either way.

Its not a bug. Its a play mechanic. Thanks for reporting it in good spirit though.

[Melon]

Eh, I've got to disagree here. Intended or not, I personally don't think it's a very good idea.

If you shoot somebody and they fall into a mine, it should calculate up all of the damage so far. If you didn't want to show damage due to mines until the end of the go, maybe you shouldn't show the damage from the first shot.

The way I look at it, if you're going to show the damage dealt between shots, then that should include all of the damage that was dealt with that shot, including mines/fall damage and so on, otherwise it just doesn't make sense. In some cases, you may be unsure as to whether or not the damage done has been enough to kill the worm. Do you risk using your next shot to kill a worm that's already dead but you don't know it? You might not always be able to accurately guage the amount of damage you've done. I just think it's a bit misleading that's all, and in a game like this, knowing how much damage you've done is essential.

But whatever. I don't have an Xbox, so I don't care. :p

[Haoshiro]

Its not a bug. Its a play mechanic. Thanks for reporting it in good spirit though.

I understand why it might seem that way, but its completely illogical to consider it a play mechanic if you actually compare it to how the game already behaves.

Triggering a mine near a enemy while on a Rope will detonate the mine and the damage is calculated immediately, if that worm dies that also happens mid-turn.

If I shotgun a barrel and it damages a worm mid-turn, that damage is calculated and displayed.

Yet if I shotgun a worm into a mine that doesn't happen.

To call it a play mechanic is to say that for some reason it was purposefully decided that mine damage won't be calculated mid-turn just like is done in other scenarios (Rope, barrel, etc).

It's not a mechanic, it's an oddity and an exception - one that isn't intentional, ie: a bug.

[quakerworm]

Triggering a mine near a enemy while on a Rope will detonate the mine and the damage is calculated immediately, if that worm dies that also happens mid-turn.
tried it on wow, and it didn't work that way. it actually didn't display the damage until the turn ended. wxbla might behave differently, or maybe i stumbled onto another bug on the wow. i'll try it again later.

[Haoshiro]

tried it on wow, and it didn't work that way. it actually didn't display the damage until the turn ended. wxbla might behave differently, or maybe i stumbled onto another bug on the wow. i'll try it again later.

Even so, barrel damage is calculated mid-turn.

[quakerworm]

Even so, barrel damage is calculated mid-turn.
but only if you explode a barrel with a shot gun. if you blow up a barrel with a mine that you triggered off the rope, it doesn't compute until the end of turn. i'm not even going to try to figure this one out.

[Paul.Power]

That is rather weird.

Also seems strange to call it a play mechanic when I don't remember it happening like in earlier games.

[Luther]

The barrel damage happens in the same instant as the shotgun damge. That's why it gets subtracted with the shotgun damage. A mine is a separate event and gets subtracted at the end of the turn, just like any other seaprate event. If you reduce an enemy worm to zero healthwith a shotgun's first shot he will die before the second shot is available.

I'm just an animator btw. I'm not a designer or a programmer, so none of this is my field.

[Haoshiro]

The barrel damage happens in the same instant as the shotgun damge. That's why it gets subtracted with the shotgun damage. A mine is a separate event and gets subtracted at the end of the turn, just like any other seaprate event. If you reduce an enemy worm to zero healthwith a shotgun's first shot he will die before the second shot is available.

I'm just an animator btw. I'm not a designer or a programmer, so none of this is my field.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I understand the how and why regarding this issue. It's just not consistent, and I've had to explain why "the mine didn't hurt the worm" in many Ranked matches already... when something so small and basic is confusing players that are otherwise playing the game well, you know you have a problem.

[Luther]

This is a difficult one to get across. In my opinion the only thing that isn't consistent is the double shot of the shotgun. Every other weapon is designed to end the turn when fired.

I may be too close to the game's development to see your point, so I'll just back slowly towards the door and then run.

[quakerworm]

it's not really inconsistent. just a bit counterintuitive.

[Haoshiro]

This is a difficult one to get across. In my opinion the only thing that isn't consistent is the double shot of the shotgun. Every other weapon is designed to end the turn when fired.

I may be too close to the game's development to see your point, so I'll just back slowly towards the door and then run.

Understandable. :)

At a very basic level, consider this:

A) If the first shotgun blast hits a barrel, and that barrel explosion hit a worm, the damage dealt by the barrel blast is calculated and shown immediately. If that worm dies because of that, that happens immediately.

B) If the first shotgun blast hits a mine, which roles towards a worm then explodes, the damage dealt to the worm is NOT calculated or shown immediately. Likewise, if that worm dies because of that, it does NOT happen immediately.

Obviously a mine isn't exactly like a barrel, and is timed, but to an end-user that doesn't matter. At a basic level the behaviour their is inconsistent, even for the shotgun.

Now you can't actually move or fire your second shot if a mine is going off, you have to wait for that to happen. It seems logical that the game needs to check if a mine went off right before letting a user take their second shot, and if it has, re-check/update the game to display any damage dealt, and detonate the dead worms if they exist, basically it needs to loop and do exactly what it does directly after the first shotgun blast, only repeat that for when I mine explodes.

Does that make any more sense now?