Impressions from a Long-Time Worms Fan

[phoenix96]

I've been playing Worms games since the original almost 13 years ago. I've been really looking forward to this game ever since hearing about it at the beginning of this year. As time went on and more details were released, old-school Worms fans learned more and more about disappointing elements of the new game, and it seems that some of our fears have been justified by the actual release of the game.

That's not to say the game isn't fun: It's a lot of fun, and is really worth far more than the 800 MS points. Anybody who cares enough about Worms to be on this forum should definitely buy it! There are some drawbacks, though, and I think the game could have been a lot better.

The most obvious problem is the missing weapons. And yes, they are missing. The gaming world has come to know and love the collection of weapons that has been available since Worms 2, 10 years ago. Suddenly, in this "third generation" of 2D Worms games, things have regressed. Worse, one of the elements that has become synonymous with "Worms" in gaming, the Holy Hand Grenade, is gone! I guess we should just count ourselves lucky that the banana bomb and sheep were left in.
Team17 constantly says that this is to "open the game up" and "make the game more accessible to casual gamers". I don't buy that explanation for a second. First off, I've never heard of anyone finding the old weapon sets daunting. Worms has always attracted more casual gamers than typical PC games, and all of the non-gamers I've shown it to have had a lot of fun with it. There is no reason that things had to be made more limited in order to make them more accessible. Most of the old super-weapons were usually only rarely available in a crate, and more advanced players could configure them to be more common if they did so choose. There's no reason a brand new player would be forced to choose between a Concrete Donkey and an Indian Nuclear Test. It would have been simple to have the default game types (and maybe the game types for ranked online games) include the current limited arsenal while giving advanced players the choices they would expect. Casual gamers wouldn't even have to know that there were more advanced options.

For reference, here are a list of the 2D weapons that are missing from Worms on the 360: homing pigeon, Patsy's magic bullet, mole bomb, homing cluster bomb, holy hand grenade, super banana bomb, petrol bomb, handgun, minigun, longbow, suicide bomber, battle axe, baseball bat, priceless ming vase, sheep launcher, super sheep, aqua sheep, sheep-on-a-rope, cloned sheep, mad cow, old woman, salvation army, skunk, homing strike, napalm strike, mail strike, mine strike, mole squadron, carpet bomb, MB bomb, french sheep strike, concrete donkey, earthquake, scales of justice, flood, nuke, armageddon, pneumatic drill, bungee, parachute. Some of those weapons are clearly redundant, but many others added fun elements to the game.

The weapons that are still there behave differently now, mostly in regards to the area that they damage. Splash damage seems to be greatly reduced for some reason (maybe to try to compensate for the smaller levels). The napalm effects of exploded barrels and crates are gone too. That cuts out an important dynamic of the old games. I remember the satisfaction that would result from a well placed shot at an explosive barrel that would leak its fuel onto a ledge below and push a worm into the ocean. That's gone now - yet another strategic element removed.

The new 3D backgrounds are neat for the first couple minutes of gameplay, but they don't actually affect gameplay at all so they are quickly ignored. The new levels are much smaller than the old ones - more catering to the "casual gamer"? Again, this removes a strategic element. Why did this game have to make sacrifices at the expense of the people who have supported the Worms series for years? Maybe this was a memory issue - because of the HD themes, levels had to be kept a certain size in order to fit in the old 50mb game limit? It is too bad Microsoft didn't raise the XBLA game size limit months ago, but I can't fault Team17 for that.

Or maybe the smaller levels are because of the reduced number of worms on a team. Again, I don't understand why the number of worms had to be cut down. The game can clearly support at least 16 worms at a time (in 4-team games), so why couldn't we have 1vs1 games with 8 worms per team?

I could deal with the lack of weapons - after all, the original Worms had a similar weapons arsenal and it was still fun. But by far the worst single change in this new game is the physics! One of the greatest parts of the old Worms games was the hilarious results of explosions. Sending a worm flying off a ledge with a shotgun blast, or rocketing into the air after a dynamite explosion. Everything is toned down now, as if the worms weigh 20 times more than they used to. I've seen results where a worm flies a bit horizontally, then lands and just sticks there rather than skidding along like you'd expect. Ninja roping has been crippled now as well. What happened to the physics? They were perfect the way they were in Worms 2-WA-WWP; what's been done to them in W360 is definitely a change for the worse, and for no apparent reason other than change for change's sake. The physics feel broken now, as if we're playing a poorly made Worms clone rather than a real Worms game.

The new graphics looks good, but not spectacular by any means - the old 2nd generation 2D Worms games looked good at higher resolutions too, and after playing Worms 360 and Worms: Armageddon back-to-back, I actually think some of the animations were smoother in WA. That said, the terrain, backgrounds, and water do look good on an HDTV. But I fear that so much went into the HD graphics and 3D backgrounds that gameplay was sacrificed. I'd have much rather had a port of Worms: Armageddon, which was a much more complete and fulfilling game experience even though it was released 8 years ago.

This all makes me think of what happened with Deus Ex and Deus Ex 2. For those who aren't familiar with it, Deus Ex was a very highly regarded "role-playing first-person shooter". It won a lot of awards and critical acclaim. When it came time to make a sequel, the developers removed a lot of features from the game in the name of "making it more accessible" and reducing it to a "core gaming experience". The developers kept assuring everyone that the new leaner game would be more fun because of the reduced complexity. Then it was released, and anybody who was a fan of the first game was very disappointed. The soul of the game had been removed. Deus Ex 2 was regarded as a decent if not great game in its own regard, but a lousy sequel, and it alienated the people who made the first game a hit. Consequently, it had somewhat dismal sales and now there's practically no hope of a Deus Ex 3. Now I know that Worms for the 360 is not a true full sequel to WWP, but it seems as if Team17 is going down this same path.

I understand perfectly well that this game was only $10 and it's not targeted to the old-school Worms fans. But it's unnecessarily missing so much of what Worms 2/Worms: Armageddon had nearly a decade ago, and those games can be found in $4.99 bargain bins now! I can only hope that there will be downloadable updates to plug some of the holes in this version.


To summarize, here's a list of what are (I believe) the major problems and my suggestions on how to fix them:

Problem: Weaponset is limited and feels like it is missing features, reducing replayability and fun for some users.
Fix: Restore the mole bomb, petrol bomb, handgun, longbow, baseball bat, napalm strike, pneumatic drill, bungee, and parachute as standard weapons (with limited quantities in the default schemes). Restore the homing pigeon, minigun, skunk, and old woman as weapons found only in crates. Restore super banana bomb, holy hand grenade, priceless ming vase, super sheep, and maybe carpet bomb as super weapons available only very rarely. These changes would not negatively impact the game for people who like the current limited weaponset, but would restore the missing elements so many fans were hoping for.

Problem: "Flame barrels" don't produce flames.
Fix: Add the napalm effect back into the game. The flame barrels at the least should produce napalm, otherwise they are simply mines that you have to shoot to detonate. The crates don't really need the napalm effect if you wanted to keep it limited.

Problem: Levels are too small.
Fix: I'm not sure if there's anything to be done about this because maybe it's a memory limitation. If so, the level size is not a major problem.

Problem: Teams are too small.
Fix: Allow teams of up to 8 worms, but keep the limit of 16 worms per game. That way in a 1vs1 you could use your full 8-worm team, in a 1vs1vs1 you'd each have 6 worms, and in a 1vs1vs1vs1 you'd each have 4 worms. This would extend the replayability of the game for people who like to play 1vs1.

Problem: Weapon effects are too limited. The way it is now is too difficult for novice players because it requires very precise aiming for weapons like the bazooka, and weapons that should cause a great deal of damage often don't because of odd proximity effects. Mines are not a challenge at all because they barely have an impact when they explode unless you're right on top of them.
Fix: By default, increase the distance at which explosion effects are felt. Add an option so that users can select "high impact" or "low impact" weapons.

Problem: Worms are too heavy. Shotgun blasts often don't move a worm at all, explosions even right next to a worm usually leave them standing in the same spot, etc.
Fix: Reduce the "weight" of the Worms by ~15-20%.

If Worms on the Xbox 360 incorporated these changes, it would have a greatly increased appeal to new gamers and old Worms fans alike.

[Dalendo]

Personally, I enjoy the tweaked physics. You really have to work for your water kills now, and that's the way it should be.

[Scorp46]

How in the world can you enjoy this physic? :eek:
I mean, Worms was so damn much funnier when my enymies flow high and landed upon a mine and flow high again and landed in the water. In this new title such situation are pretty rare or even not there.

[mpriem]

I so agree with you. I was so disappointed by this version. Worms is my alltime favorite trademark. I play Worms 4 on a daily basis. After selling my Dreamcast, I did not have a 2d version I could play in my living room and was so psyced about Worms HD being released. I love all the games, but this version was the first one I was really disappointed about.
(Still is the best XBLA game out there, but it could have been 10 times better)

The lack of bridges, smaller levels, altered physics are the worst limitations. Next to that I really miss some of the specials (I can do without 90%, but would have liked two or three of them like global warming, supersheep and the holy handgrenade), and also things like the drill, bungee, parachute..

Shame on Team17 for this..

[qwertz]

they should make a new "complete" worms or something like that for XBLA now with the 150MB limit
or even better make it a retail game

add all the old weapons and backgrounds and options and new ones of course
use the updated graphics, maybe update them some more and we have a winner

but dont make it 3D !!!



while we wait for that we play worms xbla ;)

[slysy]

I agree the new physics are very different. In particular the fire punch and dragonball used to be handy for knocking enemy worms into the water. But the range that they send the worms seems to be a lot smaller now, meaning those weapons are a lot less useful.

[BnA]

I'm quite pleased the super weapons are gone - I used to disable most of them in previous versions anyhow. The HHG and bat I'd like to return though.

[Wormetti]

The firepunch range seems close to normal but if the worm you are punching is against some slightly raised land, it won't go flying. I have punched plenty of worms into the water or mines, so it's still useful.

[Lagster]

both the punches are pretty much how i remember them, think you've gotten used to bat with which you could hit just about anybody into the water from miles away.

I must be one of the few people glad B-Bat isn't in as it was a very powerful weapon due to its range and elevation you could get from it.

[robowurmz]

The thing about the physics is, is that in the older worms games, such as W:A and WWP, you hardly ever killed a worm by taking down it's health, as was meant to be. The water was supposed to be an added threat, and to be used if a worm was actually NEAR the water.

And that's how it is now! The water is an added danger, but isn't as deadly as the weapons are now! This is GOOD!

[AndrewTaylor]

And that's how it is now! The water is an added danger, but isn't as deadly as the weapons are now! This is GOOD!

Tactically, it's great news. A lot of people just seem to want it to be "funny", in which case far-flying worms are better.

You can't please everyone. In this case, I think, Team17 have focussed on the core tactical gameplay, because they consider it Worms' best side, and so it's the side they want all the new players in the as-yet-untapped PSP and XBLA markets to see first.

It's a prefectly sensible move as far as I can see, and I'm getting a bit tired of it being misrepresented and derided here.

[SpaceInsom]

Aa much as I hate to say it, I think they did it for the most part to try and grow interest of new players. If everything felt the same as WA or WWP, veterans of those games would slaughter new players left and right. You can't even do the 4 second nade trick anymore (fire a 4 second time grenade in a very high arch and when it explodes, it will be across the screen, but directly parallel to the worm who threw it). You try the same thing now, and it either has about half a second left on the timer, or falls into the water. sad.gif

While I hate this, I do sort of understand why they did it. I used to be so good at BnG that I'd damn near never miss, which wouldn't be very fun for new players. What I really hate, like what you're saying, is how small they made the spash damage now. You almost never can setup a nice chain reaction anymore. The oil drums are damn near useless, as a worm now must be almost standing on the damn thing for the blast to even hit them.

The good news to all of this is veterans aren't kicking everyone's ass, the game still has the strategy elements that made it great, and if you haven't played past versions, you'll never know the difference. I'd even go as far to say, if you played this first, and then played the PC, you'd probably hate the huge splash damage, and really loose physics. But yeah, it still kind of sucks they ended up screwing the original fans of the game.

[Squirminator2k]

I like that Worms has taken a step back and become a lot simpler. I much prefer playing Worms or WormsDC than Worms Armageddon, so expect me to be playing Worms XBLA more often than WA.

[DarthSmurf]

I personally am glad about the physics being weighed down a bit. I hated having half my team swimming in the drink before I've even had one turn.

I DO think that the splash damage is WAY TOO low though. Some shots I was taking at the AI last night should have at least taken off SOME health as opposed to none.

And while I don't miss a vast majority of the weapons, I do miss the Holy Hand Grenade, the Super Sheep, the Baseball Bat and to a lesser extent the Bungie Rope.

Also... no bridges? Why? And the fire from barrel explosions is also missed.

[Squirminator2k]

I DO think that the splash damage is WAY TOO low though.
I agree with you here - that's something that was evident in Worms: Open Warfare and I had hoped they'd tweak it for Worms XBLA.

And the fire from barrel explosions is also missed.
Fire was never in barrels on the console versions of WA/WWP (and I don't recall barrels having flames in W2, I think that was introduced from WA onwards), so 360 owners aren't really missing out. And for those who haven't played a Worms game since the original, barrels are something entirely new, so it doesn't make a difference.

[SpaceInsom]

I personally am glad about the physics being weighed down a bit. I hated having half my team swimming in the drink before I've even had one turn.

Two words: Teleport In. Another great feature missing (not "missing") from Worms XBLA. :(

[ThumbFace]

Worms on XBLA does what it says on the tin!
Sure its missing some weapons but the games are lasting longer and when playing a good player more skill is needed because of the no overkill bigger weps,i have been playing worms since the beginning and apart from the ropes being harder,i cant take the big grin off my face when playing this classic again,i guess u cant please all the people all the time...........

[tbboy13]

Two words: Downloadable Content

My Guess is they'll fix bugs and add weapons for a long time.

[phoenix96]

Two words: Downloadable Content

My Guess is they'll fix bugs and add weapons for a long time.

Unfortunately, Team17 have claimed that DLC will be used for things like themes and sound banks (which don't affect gameplay at all) and explicitly not new weapons. Like I said before, I wouldn't mind the weapon selection so much if the splash damage and physics were fixed.

[DVP]

I agree to a large extent with phoenix96's post. However, I do understand (if not entirely agree) with Team17's attempt to 'even out' the gameplay experience. However, in doing so, it's made the game more bland and unenjoyable, which is one of the major reasons why the casual crowd, that they're trying to attract, will probably give the game a miss!

Surely the whole 'enjoyment' comes from the slightly erratic, rather quirky, choice of weapons and cartoony explosive excess?!

I still have my old 3.5" Worms floppy disks downstairs myself (not to mention a CD version to avoid the eyestrain from the copy-protection booklet) and certainly don't get that same entertaining buzz that I did from the original. By no means do I feel that T17 have destroyed or crippled the game - merely reigned it in slightly, which was their intent for the XBLA incarnation from the beginning. I think that's the real dissapointment (and judging by some of these posts, the disapointment of many others) - why tame a 'wild' game?

[AndrewTaylor]

Surely the whole 'enjoyment' comes from the slightly erratic, rather quirky, choice of weapons and cartoony explosive excess?!

I thought it was the cunning tactics and strategy of outwitting an opponent?

[dejay]

I DO think that the splash damage is WAY TOO low though. Some shots I was taking at the AI last night should have at least taken off SOME health as opposed to none.

Personally that's the only thing I dislike about the game. The weapons are nice and balanced - the baseball bat was too powerful, especially on the smaller maps. The physics are ok too - I still see worms flying across the map on occasion, and I often see them interacting with two or more landmines to be well and truly screwed. It just doesn't happen as often - which makes it funnier when it does happen.

[phoenix96]

I agree to a large extent with phoenix96's post. However, I do understand (if not entirely agree) with Team17's attempt to 'even out' the gameplay experience. However, in doing so, it's made the game more bland and unenjoyable, which is one of the major reasons why the casual crowd, that they're trying to attract, will probably give the game a miss!

Yep. I've already heard a few people who weren't familiar with it say "this is Worms? what's the big deal?". With the old version (and this is from experience) I'd be able to tell them about the zany chain-reactions and over-the-top weapons and those things would be a strong draw to get someone to try the game. They're not there anymore.


Surely the whole 'enjoyment' comes from the slightly erratic, rather quirky, choice of weapons and cartoony explosive excess?!

Exactly!


I still have my old 3.5" Worms floppy disks downstairs myself (not to mention a CD version to avoid the eyestrain from the copy-protection booklet) and certainly don't get that same entertaining buzz that I did from the original. By no means do I feel that T17 have destroyed or crippled the game - merely reigned it in slightly, which was their intent for the XBLA incarnation from the beginning. I think that's the real dissapointment (and judging by some of these posts, the disapointment of many others) - why tame a 'wild' game?

Team17 could have really slimmed it down - maybe to 1 worm per team, no water, and only the bazooka? I mean, the game would still work fine and it would be very balanced then, right?

Except it wouldn't be any fun. In cutting out so many features, Team17 has reduced the amount of fun that this game could be (and I'm not saying it won't be any fun now - but people who aren't closely familiar with the old games don't know what they're missing). I feel that they were operating on the mistaken assumption that a large weaponset and the cartoony physics were "daunting" to new players; I think it was exactly the opposite. They were the big draws to new players!

[Flavius]

Obviously, the only solution is to make a retail boxed 2D Worms game.. The 3D games fad is over, don't you know? Worms concept never worked well in 3D anyway.

At least make it isometric 3D worms or something, not first person. That was the major design flaw.

[Wrathchild]

The thing about the physics is, is that in the older worms games, such as W:A and WWP, you hardly ever killed a worm by taking down it's health, as was meant to be. The water was supposed to be an added threat, and to be used if a worm was actually NEAR the water.

And that's how it is now! The water is an added danger, but isn't as deadly as the weapons are now! This is GOOD!

I agree, and looking at all of the game design as a whole, I think this was the real (or at least main) reason behind the smaller weapons list too. In W:A and WWP it became too common for a full health worm to die in one round, sometimes multiple worms.

While this made for quicker, dirtier, and somewhat more amusing gameplay, it took away a lot of the strategic elements and I feel led to Wormnet being full of scheme games, with rarely ever a 'base' game being played. There just isn't as much replay value in a game where you can be eliminated without getting a turn in, or at best getting one or two turns.

At first I was really put off by the changed physics and other design decisions, because it is enjoyable to drop a mine next to a worm and send it flying into another mine or off the edge. However, after playing a few games, I began to feel that the changes are just things to adjust to, and make it a more competitive experience.

Also, I completely agree that a 360 port of W:A or something similar would be a great success, and I hope that the XBLA version sells well enough to persuade T17 to go into the design room and get one cooking for us.

[AndrewTaylor]

Obviously, the only solution is to make a retail boxed 2D Worms game.. The 3D games fad is over, don't you know? Worms concept never worked well in 3D anyway.

At least make it isometric 3D worms or something, not first person. That was the major design flaw.

Isometric?



(This post works best if read in a Jack-Davenport-In-Coupling-Repeating-Something-Jeff-Has-Said voice.)

[DVP]

I thought it was the cunning tactics and strategy of outwitting an opponent?

No, you're thinking about Chess ;) :D

The great thing about Worms for me (and a lot of other people too I hasten to add) was that it was a strategy game, but it was also fun, outrageous and completely over-the-top.

Sure, 'Worms XBLA' isn't exactly Backgammon just yet, but it's certainly lost some of its humour. Interestingly, I think that it was the tactical edge which appealled to the hardcore whilst the 'casual' gamer appreciated the outlandish, eccentric nature of the weapons, excessive cartoon violence and 'hallarious' voice packs - the very things that T17 decided to remove in order to appeal to that market!

[AndrewTaylor]

Interestingly, I think that it was the tactical edge which appealled to the hardcore whilst the 'casual' gamer appreciated the outlandish, eccentric nature of the weapons, excessive cartoon violence and 'hallarious' voice packs - the very things that T17 decided to remove in order to appeal to that market!

No, I don't think that's true at all. I know people who play Chess casually. Strategy is an entirely accessible form of entertainment, particularly in a game like Worms where the rules are so obvious and intuitive.

If people wanted to watch violently over the top, cartoonish excess then they would invest in the DVD set of Happy Tree Friends. If people buy a turn based strategy game it's fair to assume they want to try their hand at some strategy.

If the violence is too OTT then any strategy you apply will be lost against the general background carnage. That ruins the game.

[Pickles]

Isometric?



(This post works best if read in a Jack-Davenport-In-Coupling-Repeating-Something-Jeff-Has-Said voice.)


Lol at this... acheivement for best "post pub and made me spit my mouthful of wine over my keyboard" comment goes to Andrew...

Keep it up mate :)

[DVP]

No, I don't think that's true at all. I know people who play Chess casually. Strategy is an entirely accessible form of entertainment, particularly in a game like Worms where the rules are so obvious and intuitive.

If people wanted to watch violently over the top, cartoonish excess then they would invest in the DVD set of Happy Tree Friends. If people buy a turn based strategy game it's fair to assume they want to try their hand at some strategy.

If the violence is too OTT then any strategy you apply will be lost against the general background carnage. That ruins the game.

Some good points there Andrew.

I'm not at all suggesting that people can't play chess casually or that strategy games are intrinsically difficult to get into (although saying that "Strategy is an entirely accessible form of entertainment" isn't necessarily true). Merely that if people wanted pure strategy, tactical planning, etc they'd play something more akin to chess.

When people play Worms they're getting something more than that - they're getting an experience that mixes things up a bit. The excessive carnage is what many people love about the Worms series and even over the top violence needs to follow the rules of physics ;) It's part of the tactical nature of the game - I remember several occasions under which that overly explosive barrel of napalm just about managed to eak out that extra kill...

Comparing the cartoon violence of videogames against DVDs (such as 'Happy Tree Friends') is a little like comparing apples and oranges. Passive Vs. active entertainment: sometimes we want to play that cartoon too :D

[quakerworm]

If people buy a turn based strategy game it's fair to assume they want to try their hand at some strategy.
you call worms a tbs, and you criticize my definition of an fps? when people buy heroes of might and magic, they do, indeed, expect strategy. when people buy worms, they expect a 2d turn-based artillery shooter with some elements of strategy. worms just isn't a "check mate in 3 turns" kind of game, and most of the players will expect a completely different experience.

[SpaceInsom]

Interestingly, I think that it was the tactical edge which appealled to the hardcore whilst the 'casual' gamer appreciated the outlandish, eccentric nature of the weapons, excessive cartoon violence and 'hallarious' voice packs - the very things that T17 decided to remove in order to appeal to that market!

No, I don't think that's true at all. I know people who play Chess casually. Strategy is an entirely accessible form of entertainment, particularly in a game like Worms where the rules are so obvious and intuitive.

You're wrong. Sorry to be blunt, but there's really no arguement here. It's not the "hardcore" worms players that play fullwormage schemes, it's the newbies. New players love the wacky weapons, and I myself loved setting them as "crates only" weapons, which is why I'm sorry to see so many of them gone.

I don't want to play a game where you start with a concrete donkey, but it was awesome to get one from a crate in every 75 to 100 games games or so, and surprise the hell out of some darksiding team who think they've got you beat. The rare weapons and overall unpredictability is a large part of the fun of worms. Team 17 shouldn't be surprised people miss that element of the game.

[phoenix96]

You're wrong. Sorry to be blunt, but there's really no arguement here. It's not the "hardcore" worms players that play fullwormage schemes, it's the newbies. New players love the wacky weapons, and I myself loved setting them as "crates only" weapons, which is why I'm sorry to see so many of them gone.

I don't want to play a game where you start with a concrete donkey, but it was awesome to get one from a crate in every 75 to 100 games games or so, and surprise the hell out of some darksiding team who think they've got you beat. The rare weapons and overall unpredictability is a large part of the fun of worms. Team 17 shouldn't be surprised people miss that element of the game.

Yep. The hard-core players were the ones looking for pure strategy without the "unbalancing" element of the extra weapons. The casual players loved the over-the-top action available in the old games.

Which of those were Team17 targeting with this release again?

We're not the only ones who feel the way we do about the new Worms. Here are some quotes I found in a few minutes of reading at TeamXbox:

The version of Worms that is up on XBLA is so minimalistic so it's hard to prefer this one over Alien Hominid, who does indeed feels like a full-blown console title.
I love the Worms series, but theres almost nothing in the XBL version:(
does it have the holy hand grenade? holy handgrenade = coolest weapon in a game EVER
As far as the ninja rope, I would say that it is extremely disappointing...I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun with this game, but not the way that I have the most fun with the series...It is not as good as WWP (IMO)
WWP was the best worms ever. Super banana, aqua sheep, earthquake, cool maps, slot machines, CONCRETE DONKEY. I guess that would be too much for an arcade game:(
...i found myself not really enjoying this game as much. i use to be a hardcore worms fan too.
i reckon they shouldve just done worms 2 and be done with i
Yeah, I hate to say it, but they just don't seem to be making the right decisions anymore. It really bothers me to say things like that about a franchise I have loved so much and spent countless hours with. It reminds me of the way I die a little inside every time I admit that Simpsons mostly sucks nowadays.
It honestly makes me wish Team17 would just release an HD version of Worms 2/Armegeddon or World Party. Now theres a game I would have no second thoughts of dropping $60 on.
As much as I have enjoyed Worms on XBLA... this is basically a port of the PSP Worms Open Warfare minus over 75% of it's content.
definitely. and I don't understand their reasoning for these adjustments. I don't think blowing a Worm 50 feet in there really "throws off the balance". I wish they would have left the explosion radius, power and gravity alone...
I expected more from Worms...50MB limit stripped it down way too much.

I've now played a few games with a "casual gamer" family member who used to have a lot of fun with Worms: Armageddon. She had a hard time with Worms 360 because of the need to be very precise in weapon aiming due to the low splash damage, and the difficulty in moving around with the ninja rope. She ended up just letting her turn time run out many times I'm afraid.

I think that's the opposite effect from what Team17 wanted. :(

[mr zoizo]

I approve the opinion of phoenix96.

But it is very disappointing to see whether little quality control on behalf of team17 (since the development of this worms was sub-contracted) .

if they could add some weapons ( napalm please!!!), some major tools (like gravity, parachute...) to put bonus in the cases (damage x2, speed....), to eliminate this blasted focus which make that the camera always returns on the worms whereas it y' has a button for this (then we move the screen in zoom mode off and when we shot, the camera comeback to the active WORM??? it is ridiculous...)and to correct this physics so different from the other worms versions....

(the gauge of shooting is lamentable in zoom mode ! it is almost a sphere!! thank you the precision) !!!!

very very disappointed :(

[quakerworm]

since the development of this worms was sub-contracted
where did you get that from?

[mr zoizo]

where did you get that from?
http://www.xboxic.com/news/2368

"If you think we have been waiting a long time for Worms, then you don’t know the story. The game has apparently been in development since early 2006. Team17 had originally been approached by Microsoft in late 2004, who stated they had big plans for their new console and the online features. However, according to Brown, the timing just wasn’t right; they were already working on a few other things, so were going to let another developer develop the game on behalf of Team17. It was going to be a launch title in the November of 2005, but things didn’t work out and obviously we are still waiting for the game. Having agreed with Microsoft that an Arcade Worms would “rock”, they have been developing for pretty much a year, but the game itself has been complete since September according to Brown."

[Luther]

You misunderstood it.

We made Worms XBLA here.

[thomasp]

http://www.xboxic.com/news/2368

"If you think we have been waiting a long time for Worms, then you don’t know the story. The game has apparently been in development since early 2006. Team17 had originally been approached by Microsoft in late 2004, who stated they had big plans for their new console and the online features. However, according to Brown, the timing just wasn’t right; they were already working on a few other things, so were going to let another developer develop the game on behalf of Team17. It was going to be a launch title in the November of 2005, but things didn’t work out and obviously we are still waiting for the game. Having agreed with Microsoft that an Arcade Worms would “rock”, they have been developing for pretty much a year, but the game itself has been complete since September according to Brown."

Note the use of past tense - indicating that there was speculation but nothing actually materialised.

[NEG]

I thought it was the cunning tactics and strategy of outwitting an opponent?

Strategy also came from the large amount of weapons. Your opponent in Worms 360 has a very small selection of what they could do to you, thus, you can predict way easier. WA/WWP weapon selection (in intermidate settings at least) made it much more intresting as to what your opponent may choose to do.

This game has killed the meaning of Full Wormage, also. Its just not fun anymore.

I agree, and looking at all of the game design as a whole, I think this was the real (or at least main) reason behind the smaller weapons list too. In W:A and WWP it became too common for a full health worm to die in one round, sometimes multiple worms.

While this made for quicker, dirtier, and somewhat more amusing gameplay, it took away a lot of the strategic elements and I feel led to Wormnet being full of scheme games, with rarely ever a 'base' game being played. There just isn't as much replay value in a game where you can be eliminated without getting a turn in, or at best getting one or two turns.



Nada.

Obviously you want a limited selection of weapons for RANKED rules, or if you want Classic settings. Truely competitive games of Worms never continued like you say. You could perhaps take a few worms out with a tnt, a firepunch or some other things, but the opening rounds always focus on the first few "possible" easy kills.

Its not like we're telling Team17 "Gee, we sure wish we had super sheep selectable from round 1". Having it there as an option is enough, and obtainable from a crate in-game. The zany weapons were not as "wrong" as some people may think.

[reactualit]

I couldn't have said it better. WORMS was an institution amongst all my friends in college, and if Team 17's aim was not at old school Worms fans, then why are we all playing this version again on the 360 more than any other game in our libraries. We love it! I can't wait to get home tonight to play some of my college buds. But why take so much away from what made the franchise SO good? The weapons, the physics (hello, this is a game of worms trying to kill each other - I think I can live without the reality of weight to blast kill ratios for the evening - I say, let em' fly!), world sizes, random level generations etc etc.

I would happily pay 59.99 for a new kick-butt version of Worms with everything that made it great AND the new look! Come on Team 17. You have the fan base, step it up.

Also, does anyone know if you can turn off the radom mine generator like you used to be able to? This mine generator is ANNOYING.

[parsley]

*deletia*
May I just ask you a second question? Are you having fun?

(This is in no way anything other than a genuine enquiry. There are no gotchas involved)

[AndrewTaylor]

Strategy also came from the large amount of weapons. Your opponent in Worms 360 has a very small selection of what they could do to you, thus, you can predict way easier. WA/WWP weapon selection (in intermidate settings at least) made it much more intresting as to what your opponent may choose to do.

This is true, but in one sense it's also true that with a large selection of weapons it's so rare you'll be stuck for a move that the opponent will always have something they can do to you, so predicting their every move becomes pointless.

I guess there are people who've developed tactics specifically for W:A and its exact weapon set, but those people were probably never going to be happy with WXBLA unless it was just W:A all over again.

[ShadowXOR]

Yup, I loved Worms and I've played almost every version. I tried the XBLA version and it is horrible, the DS and PSP version sucked as well.

R.I.P. Worms

[SpaceInsom]

Yup, I loved Worms and I've played almost every version. I tried the XBLA version and it is horrible, the DS and PSP version sucked as well.

R.I.P. Worms

For fifty dollars it might be "horrible", but don't you think it's at least worth 800 MS points? I've been quite critical of the lack of easy to add features, and some of the gameplay changes, but even I am willing to admit it's a fun game and a great value. How many games on XBLA do you know of that are better?

[ShadowXOR]

For fifty dollars it might be "horrible", but don't you think it's at least worth 800 MS points? I've been quite critical of the lack of easy to add features, and some of the gameplay changes, but even I am willing to admit it's a fun game and a great value. How many games on XBLA do you know of that are better?

I own seven or so Xbox Live Arcade games and they are all better because they were worth my money.

I would pay $50 for a full Worms release, the current release may not be a bad "deal" at $10, but it doesn't include enough for it to be even fun, so I'm not buying it. I was bored by the end of the first match...and I love Worms.

[natrapsmai]

May I just ask you a second question? Are you having fun?

(This is in no way anything other than a genuine enquiry. There are no gotchas involved)

I know you're not asking me, but I'll answer anyway. No. I am not having fun.

Worms as an entity is still there and is still alive, still wriggling, but all its juice has been squeezed out. The content that was removed was what made the game fun for the vast majority of its fan base - according to what most reviewers and gamers have said, anyway - so much that after you've removed the grandma, the super sheep, the holy hand grenade, you're left with utterly boring weapons such as the shotgun, uzi, generic grenades, and so on.

Worms is looney, it's wacky, it's crazy. I define these versions as an attempt as a "serious" Worms, and I don't think it works at all. At the very least it goes against what every other worms game prior to this generation has been about, which is mindless fun as a priority, and strategy as an afterthought. That's fine and dandy, but I don't think there are very many competitive Worms players out there that really want the second over the first.

Fundamentally speaking, it's difficult to grow a franchise that takes steps backwards in the eyes of its audiences. Look at Sonic and how badly of an embarrassment that's become for Sega in recent years. They didn't get there by listening to their fans and reviewers, I assure you.

[mr zoizo]

You misunderstood it.

We made Worms XBLA here.

sorry, mistake in interpretation, there especially that a translation in French was conveyed in the same direction... bad luck, I had however found a possible origin with the fact that this worms is so different from the others versions for not to say missed...

what is sure, it is that the majority of the players claims more of weapons for this version, is what team17 will take into account what wishes the players or not ?... in which case, nobody will understand considering there is no technical barrier for the gamers to download an update because in the worst of the cases, the ridiculous size of this version makes that it could easily to download one complete version again in the form of patch obligatory...

the will to satisfy the players rests on team17... I am impatient for an official advertisement of a pack of weapons...and yes I wish still quite simply because team17 must listen to the players above all and I trust them.

sorry for my English errors...:o

[Spadge]

It is simply impossible to please everyone all of the time. The aims for the XBLA version were not simply to appeal to the hardcore and conversations on that subject are elsewhere on the forum. Whatever we did, we'd be open to some kind of outcry on some level or another. Microsoft themselves were highly delighted.

We're getting a little bit of flack for light content, but 50mb doesn't go far these days, especially with all new art and a fair bit of audio (required for the localisations). However, more content is coming and a lot of it will be free of charge. We couldn't use anything other than 50mb, btw - despite a very, very recent raising of the limit - which occured after Worms was out of the development cycle.

We are listening to everyone's thoughts and considerations and I'd simply ask people to try and be constructive rather than screaming and stamping their feet.

Many, many people are really enjoying the title despite the protestations of some of our hard-core fans. An update to fix some of the minor issues found (which always occur with online titles once the servers are being hammered) will be on the way.

Should the title be a success then of course we'll be looking at this platform again.

[natrapsmai]

We're getting a little bit of flack for light content, but 50mb doesn't go far these days, especially with all new art and a fair bit of audio (required for the localisations). However, more content is coming and a lot of it will be free of charge. We couldn't use anything other than 50mb, btw - despite a very, very recent raising of the limit - which occured after Worms was out of the development cycle.

We are listening to everyone's thoughts and considerations and I'd simply ask people to try and be constructive rather than screaming and stamping their feet.

Many, many people are really enjoying the title despite the protestations of some of our hard-core fans. An update to fix some of the minor issues found (which always occur with online titles once the servers are being hammered) will be on the way.

Should the title be a success then of course we'll be looking at this platform again.

I would like to use this opportunity to emphasize that my problem is in the lack of content and not the game mechanics on their own. Worms can be fun I'm sure, I just want those weapons, that content. If you put in free updates to make the game more complex I will look into the game again, though I still have to say I feel very let down with Worms on the DS and I want to make my voice heard on that matter.

Hopefully this can be a learning experience for not only your team, but the Worms franchise and community as a whole.

Also, thank you for taking the high road and not belittling your audience and customers, as others from your staff have. As one of the team leaders for a particular HL2 mod, I know what it's like to put blood sweat and tears into a game and then have people criticize it no matter what, but flaming your fan base is unacceptable and I'm glad to see that it appears to be the exception and not the rule here.

Hopefully it won't take so long to get Xbox Live Arcade certified next time around.

Until then, cheers.

[sPideS]

How many games on XBLA do you know of that are better?

UNO
Marble Blast
Bankshot Billards
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (Will be better on the Wednesday)
Mortal Kombat


See worms would be "numero uno" if it had more weapons, instead of those boring animated backgrounds which are not needed

[phoenix96]

May I just ask you a second question? Are you having fun?

(This is in no way anything other than a genuine enquiry. There are no gotchas involved)

Yes, in fact, I do have fun playing it. Much of that fun comes from the simple pleasure of playing Worms on a big screen TV with wireless controllers from the couch. The game itself is well done (barring some minor bugs that I'm sure will be worked out soon). However, I don't think the title is going to have anywhere near the replayability of the older games, and it's been a more frustrating experience than I would have liked getting some non-gamers to play.

I wouldn't be upset if Team17 were to charge for an update that restored some of the features I've talked about. Heck, at twice the cost it is now, Worms would still be a good deal.

Maybe an expansion pack would be the best option? I'm not sure how that would work with the XBLA service: Lumines had an expansion but I believe it was relatively minor.

A full retail release would be welcomed by some as well, but the foundation is there on XBLA for a much more extensive game experience so it would seem to make sense to take advantage of that.

[mr zoizo]

It is simply impossible to please everyone all of the time. The aims for the XBLA version were not simply to appeal to the hardcore and conversations on that subject are elsewhere on the forum. Whatever we did, we'd be open to some kind of outcry on some level or another. Microsoft themselves were highly delighted.

We're getting a little bit of flack for light content, but 50mb doesn't go far these days, especially with all new art and a fair bit of audio (required for the localisations). However, more content is coming and a lot of it will be free of charge. We couldn't use anything other than 50mb, btw - despite a very, very recent raising of the limit - which occured after Worms was out of the development cycle.

We are listening to everyone's thoughts and considerations and I'd simply ask people to try and be constructive rather than screaming and stamping their feet.

Many, many people are really enjoying the title despite the protestations of some of our hard-core fans. An update to fix some of the minor issues found (which always occur with online titles once the servers are being hammered) will be on the way.

Should the title be a success then of course we'll be looking at this platform again.

Ok I will stain to be constructive... I 'm not indentified like a hardcore gamer of worms, just a good initiate. The fact that you have reduct the armament with simplest basic arsenal precisely makes the reverse of than you think... the use of basic weapons requires much more drive/experiment and the errors of precision cost a lot. The reversal of situation are extremely rare for gamers which fall on very good players. Paradoxically this dimensions "pro" is precisely the only thing which is sympathetic in this version for me because the luck does not have too here its place ...;)

but obviously the result is in opposition with your step to create a version large public and accessible to all because the hardcore gamer have the advantage...
on the other hand, on physics, indeed it is simpler (less rebound, less slip) and less realist...

Concerning the patch, please leave the player decided so yes or not, the camera returns to center on active WORM when he shots (if we had to control the position of screen at the time of aimed, this is not for return to center on its worms when we push on the button of shooting, it is very irritating!). In addition, there is a button for this (push stick right)!! In zoom off, the visibility is very reduced in this version and the zoom does not allow any precision of direction and power at the time of the shooting...:)

//... while hoping a worms 2d as complete as the worms world party on xbox360...a day...//

[AndrewTaylor]

At the very least it goes against what every other worms game prior to this generation has been about, which is mindless fun as a priority, and strategy as an afterthought. That's fine and dandy, but I don't think there are very many competitive Worms players out there that really want the second over the first.

For the sake of humanity in general I really hope you're wrong. What a depressing thought that would be.

[Lagster]

For the sake of humanity in general I really hope you're wrong. What a depressing thought that would be.

lol I'm not sure that 'humanity' is going to be greatly affected either way, i do disagree that worms players want cheap thrills over concise and tactical gameplay but how humanity would be effected be that not the case, who knows?


back OT one thing i will put in is that despite a few threads saying they miss weapons and a couple regarding online play and people leaving, i've not come across any posts saying they hate this game on either here or the xbox site. This is something of a rarity to say the least theres always some guy with a 'this game suxxors' thread when a new game is released which i think speaks for the quality of this title.

[GadgetUK]

Hmmm, OKAAAAY, it's clear your a worms fan, or a fanatic, or are they one and the same? In any case, I agree about the splash damage from barrels, and the lack of some of the weapons I had used in the past (napalm, minigun etc). I just hope they roll all of these missing things up into 1 large DLC pack. I pray to god they don't start releasing weapons in seperate DLC packs...

eg. 20 MS points for Minigun =/

Infact, is there even a plan for DLC for Worms? I mean, what could they possibly add except from weapons? Has anyone release DLC for an XBLA game yet? I think we are stuck with the weapon set we have, and I can live with it if that's the case.

[Squirminator2k]

Hmmm, OKAAAAY, it's clear your a worms fan, or a fanatic, or are they one and the same? In any case, I agree about the splash damage from barrels, and the lack of some of the weapons I had used in the past (napalm, minigun etc). I just hope they roll all of these missing things up into 1 large DLC pack. I pray to god they don't start releasing weapons in seperate DLC packs...

eg. 20 MS points for Minigun =/

Infact, is there even a plan for DLC for Worms? I mean, what could they possibly add except from weapons? Has anyone release DLC for an XBLA game yet? I think we are stuck with the weapon set we have, and I can live with it if that's the case.

I won't call you an idiot. I've called other people idiots for less over the past few days, but I've been very tightly wound (not by anything on this forum, you understand). I will say that you are ill-informed. Amazingly ill-informed.

Firstly, DLC has been confirmed. Secondly, DLC could and probably will include speechbanks, terrain styles, and additional music (the piece of WA music they chose is the only piece of WA music I actually dislike). It's not likely to include additional weapons, and I think to do so would be a bit flip-floppy on Team 17's part, but I wouldn't rule it out.

[AndrewTaylor]

lol I'm not sure that 'humanity' is going to be greatly affected either way

You know what I mean. It starts with taking a strategic game and playing it mindlessly and declaring it's better that way, and before you know it you've given up thinking altogether and are reading books by Gillian McKieth, phoning ITV Play, practicing homeopathy, and doing whatever Barry Scott tells you because he's on the television and you don't know how to question that kind of authority. It's the slow but dangerous dumbing down of the population, and I imagine that the way you approach a game like Worms is probably a pretty good indicator of how far gone you are.

Not to say that mindless violence isn't fun once in a while, but if it's a staple of your day perhaps you should worry.

[GadgetUK]

I won't call you an idiot. I've called other people idiots for less over the past few days, but I've been very tightly wound (not by anything on this forum, you understand). I will say that you are ill-informed. Amazingly ill-informed.

Firstly, DLC has been confirmed. Secondly, DLC could and probably will include speechbanks, terrain styles, and additional music (the piece of WA music they chose is the only piece of WA music I actually dislike). It's not likely to include additional weapons, and I think to do so would be a bit flip-floppy on Team 17's part, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Well thanks for not calling me an idiot, and I would just like to point out that you aren't an idiot either. Why are people getting so up tight about this? It's a game... And why am I 'ill informed', ill informed about what? The fact that we may or may not get DLC? I don't see anything ill informed in my post I see my own speculations.

[Luther]

Worms games inspire a huge amount of emotional opinion. The T17 forums tend to be the hub of it. It's traditional.

Some of us are here mainly to keep it all under control and remind everybody to play nice.

Us devs are always willing to listen to constructive criticism and comment. We've been working quite closely with the fanbase here for years, as many of the long term forum users will confirm. Well presented suggestions are always considered and debated.

Team17 staff that visit the forum do so in their own time and of their own accord. You'll find a few of us posting late at night and early in the morning from home or in our lunch breaks. NDA's prevent us from saying some things and Spadge is the only one who can give official comment.

[MBison]

I don't agree with many of these criticisms.

First off all, the game is $10. I challenge you to find a game that isn't bargain priced (ie: originally priced much more) with as much depth and longevity as Worms XBLA.

Second, Worms XBLA isn't Worms World Party or Worms Armageddon. The amount of strategy in WWP or WA with super weapons on was about zero. Yes, Concrete Donkey and Old Woman and all those others are hilarious and bring a lot of comedy and ooh/ahh factor but they offer nothing to the pure strategy of Worms. Having to actually out think your opponent, plan ahead, maximize damage with every turn is a lot more interesting than dropping a Concrete Donkey cause you were lucky enough to grab it from a crate.

Third, nerfing the ninja rope was another great decision. It's still important and can be used by more seasoned veterans to pull off awesome moves but it's not a way to move across the entire map with no ceiling.

Being an old school Worms fan, I am completely happy with XBLA (minus a few bugs) because it focuses on what makes Worms so great: the strategic chess game. I've had some classic Ranked matches and this is only a week after release. I'm certainly looking forward to new backgrounds and such but so far, Worms XBLA is the best 800 points I've spent on XBLA.

[SpaceInsom]

Well thanks for not calling me an idiot, and I would just like to point out that you aren't an idiot either. Why are people getting so up tight about this? It's a game... And why am I 'ill informed', ill informed about what? The fact that we may or may not get DLC? I don't see anything ill informed in my post I see my own speculations.

You haven't been reading this forum for days like the rest of us, and then you have the nerve to come in here and ask questions? How ill informed of you! Seriously though, it's stupid that you were jumped on like that.

[nickl0]

I don't agree with many of these criticisms.

First off all, the game is $10. I challenge you to find a game that isn't bargain priced (ie: originally priced much more) with as much depth and longevity as Worms XBLA.

Second, Worms XBLA isn't Worms World Party or Worms Armageddon. The amount of strategy in WWP or WA with super weapons on was about zero. Yes, Concrete Donkey and Old Woman and all those others are hilarious and bring a lot of comedy and ooh/ahh factor but they offer nothing to the pure strategy of Worms. Having to actually out think your opponent, plan ahead, maximize damage with every turn is a lot more interesting than dropping a Concrete Donkey cause you were lucky enough to grab it from a crate.

Third, nerfing the ninja rope was another great decision. It's still important and can be used by more seasoned veterans to pull off awesome moves but it's not a way to move across the entire map with no ceiling.

Being an old school Worms fan, I am completely happy with XBLA (minus a few bugs) because it focuses on what makes Worms so great: the strategic chess game. I've had some classic Ranked matches and this is only a week after release. I'm certainly looking forward to new backgrounds and such but so far, Worms XBLA is the best 800 points I've spent on XBLA.

Absolutely bang on the money there. Couldn't put it better myself. :)

[jakeyf]

worms on xbox arcadeis still worms, just without the flair. Worms armageddon was massivly customizable, with the ability to have more than 4 worms, allies, more/less debris/water/mines/crates. Now, i cant even start a game the way i loved it so much before. And having no holy hand grenade is just a disgrace. Worms just isnt funny/exciting on Xbox arcade, its dull. Team 17 failed big time here, and this worms will only detract both casual players looking for a laugh and simple gameplay, and the hardcore, who want customization and more weapons.

please team 17, add much much much more customization options(INCLUDING MORE WEAPONS)

[Spadge]

It's an update of the original game, not Armageddon or World Party.

Too many options will totally complicate the game for new users - and people new to Worms - of which there are many. There are many reasons for the decisions made and they are elsewhere on this forum.

Having so many options & weapons would also have meant we would have needed a 6-9 month beta test at the very least. This is a $10 (2-3 beer price point) title and we have to take that into consideration in terms of it's development. Even without all the options you have requested, it was over a year from start to release.

I'd really disagree that it's not fun, people seem to be really enjoying it. I can appreciate you miss a few of the more iconic weapons such as the HHG but the aim was to get back to the strategic balance of the original game and re-introduce the title to a new generation.

Sometimes, less = more.

[Scorp46]

But the last sentence does not work with this game...

[SirMossy]

The game IS fun, which is the most important aspect, but I gotta admit i'm already bored of it. With only a few weapons now i'm sick of using the same 3 or 4 every single game.. thats not Worms to me.. I like variety.

I'm hoping when the new content comes out i'll get back into it. Speaking of which, I have a question.

With the new backgrounds you guys are going to add, will you also be adding new generator filters for landscape patterns? A bit more variety on those would be nice because the generator seems to make pretty similar maps each time.

Also, how many maps are you releasing?

[Plasma]

It's an update of the original game, not Armageddon or World Party.

Too many options will totally complicate the game for new users - and people new to Worms - of which there are many. There are many reasons for the decisions made and they are elsewhere on this forum.

Having so many options & weapons would also have meant we would have needed a 6-9 month beta test at the very least. This is a $10 (2-3 beer price point) title and we have to take that into consideration in terms of it's development. Even without all the options you have requested, it was over a year from start to release.

I'd really disagree that it's not fun, people seem to be really enjoying it. I can appreciate you miss a few of the more iconic weapons such as the HHG but the aim was to get back to the strategic balance of the original game and re-introduce the title to a new generation.

Sometimes, less = more.
Well said!

[bradrobbo]

Yep. I've already heard a few people who weren't familiar with it say "this is Worms? what's the big deal?". With the old version (and this is from experience) I'd be able to tell them about the zany chain-reactions and over-the-top weapons and those things would be a strong draw to get someone to try the game. They're not there anymore.



Exactly!



Team17 could have really slimmed it down - maybe to 1 worm per team, no water, and only the bazooka? I mean, the game would still work fine and it would be very balanced then, right?

Except it wouldn't be any fun. In cutting out so many features, Team17 has reduced the amount of fun that this game could be (and I'm not saying it won't be any fun now - but people who aren't closely familiar with the old games don't know what they're missing). I feel that they were operating on the mistaken assumption that a large weaponset and the cartoony physics were "daunting" to new players; I think it was exactly the opposite. They were the big draws to new players!
You sir, WIN! =)