View Full Version : Any way that this game would be out for PC?
Is there any way that this game would be out for PC?
AndrewTaylor
14 Jan 2007, 00:23
Probably unlikely. I suspect Sony are going to use it to lure people towards the various PlayStations. Of course, Lemmings is already available on the PC, in a couple of sort of not-as-good forms that Sony made.
Paul.Power
15 Jan 2007, 19:58
It's a shame, given the number of unique levels (I also seem to have unaccountably lost my LW95 CD). But still.
http://www.abandonware-paradise.fr
go there, search for lemmings under arcade games, it has all of them
Sprudeldud
22 Jan 2007, 14:38
No - because Ego-shooters is all that is ever published on PC.
No - because Ego-shooters is all that is ever published on PC.
Consoles should be for shooters, not PC's ... :-(
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dice-8715686005134-Lemmings-for-Windows/dp/B00005Q5EY
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dice-8715686005134-Lemmings-for-Windows/dp/B00005Q5EY
Ok but its not the same ;)
yeah, but still... It's lemmings :p
Paul.Power
1 Feb 2007, 19:46
Ego-shootersDuke Nukem 3D?
tricia779
16 Feb 2007, 02:48
http://www.abandonware-paradise.fr
go there, search for lemmings under arcade games, it has all of them
I went to the site but the downloads won't work
Alien King
16 Feb 2007, 10:21
Consoles should be for shooters, not PC's ... :-(
Your logic is flawed. Nothing beats a mouse and keyboard in FPS games.
Metal Alex
16 Feb 2007, 13:57
Shooter is that thing with a gun :p (Time Crisis)
FPS is where you move (Half Life)
Alien King
16 Feb 2007, 14:30
Shooter is that thing with a gun :p (Time Crisis)
FPS is where you move (Half Life)
Even so, a mouse is better for both.
Unless you have a gun controller or a pointer for the console, in which case, it would be better.
AndrewTaylor
16 Feb 2007, 14:45
Even so, a mouse is better for both.
Unless you have a gun controller or a pointer for the console, in which case, it would be better.
So then they go on the Wii.
quakerworm
16 Feb 2007, 19:52
Unless you have a gun controller or a pointer for the console, in which case, it would be better.
you'd think so, but no. i have played countless fps on countless number of platforms and there is simply nothing out there that beats mouse+keyboard combination. mouse is the only controller that gives you both an ability to instantly turn to any desired angle and enough precision in careful aiming. you can get a bit of a gun-effect with a gyroscopic mouse, but they tend to be a bit clumsy compared to surface mice, and the feel of aiming really isn't worth the sacrifice in neither precision nor speed. i have not tried fps with wiimote, but i suspect that it would not be much different from a good gyroscopic mouse.
AndrewTaylor
16 Feb 2007, 20:43
you'd think so, but no. i have played countless fps on countless number of platforms and there is simply nothing out there that beats mouse+keyboard combination. mouse is the only controller that gives you both an ability to instantly turn to any desired angle and enough precision in careful aiming. you can get a bit of a gun-effect with a gyroscopic mouse, but they tend to be a bit clumsy compared to surface mice, and the feel of aiming really isn't worth the sacrifice in neither precision nor speed. i have not tried fps with wiimote, but i suspect that it would not be much different from a good gyroscopic mouse.
The Wiimote wouldn't use gyroscopic effects for aiming. It uses an IR-based "light gun" method. It really is a massively intuitive thing to shoot with, probably more so than a mouse because you don't have to worry about picking it up and moving it or about people's "invert Y axis" settings.
How exactly you'd turn with it I don't know; I'd imagine either the 3D stick on a Nunchuck, or else just let players wave it to the sides and let the accelerometers detect that. If it would work well that would be my preferred method, but it'd be rather harder to code so it worked well.
Alien King
16 Feb 2007, 21:30
you'd think so, but no. i have played countless fps on countless number of platforms and there is simply nothing out there that beats mouse+keyboard combination. mouse is the only controller that gives you both an ability to instantly turn to any desired angle and enough precision in careful aiming. you can get a bit of a gun-effect with a gyroscopic mouse, but they tend to be a bit clumsy compared to surface mice, and the feel of aiming really isn't worth the sacrifice in neither precision nor speed. i have not tried fps with wiimote, but i suspect that it would not be much different from a good gyroscopic mouse.
Well, for FPS games, yes. Nothing does beat a mouse. Point and shoot games are the only ones that could be beaten by a gun like controller (eg. a Wii). But then again, I've never really tried.
MrBunsy
16 Feb 2007, 23:54
I've played an FPS mini-game from that Monkey Ball game on the Wii, you used the numchuck to move (fowards/backwards & strafe) and the Wii-Remote to aim. It didn't really work very well, as it's very hard to aim anywhere near where you wanted.
However, it might just have been that particular minigame was a bit naff, or that I was going about using the thing the wrong way. We didn't play it again though, because the hovercrafts were much more fun, so I didn't get a chance to look into it.
quakerworm
17 Feb 2007, 08:04
The Wiimote wouldn't use gyroscopic effects for aiming. It uses an IR-based "light gun" method. It really is a massively intuitive thing to shoot with, probably more so than a mouse because you don't have to worry about picking it up and moving it or about people's "invert Y axis" settings.
yes, i know that wiimote is optical. however, i don't think it matters in this case. the gyroscopic mouse can be tunned to have exactly the same effect. keep in mind that no sane man would make a mouse with mechanical gyros. these are either arrays of accelerometers or optic gyros (spools of optical fiber coupled with a michelson interferometer). the later can be extremely precise. i have used a gyro mouse with a screen that was at least 4 meters in diagonal, and it was still a lot easier to point where you wanted to using a surface mouse. with a tv screen, i imagine, it would be even worse. and that's just aiming. as you already noted, turning around is clearly much easier with a mouse.
it would be fun, however, to try an fps with a wiimote. do you know if a decent fps for wii is planned?
Metal Alex
18 Feb 2007, 23:31
it would be fun, however, to try an fps with a wiimote. do you know if a decent fps for wii is planned?
Red steel is like that, I think. But there are more on the way. If you mean about Time Crisis style, I have no idea.
AndrewTaylor
19 Feb 2007, 10:46
it was still a lot easier to point where you wanted to using a surface mouse
Is easier necessarily better?
Personally, I've never had any problem pointing at small objects with the Wiimote anyway. I'd like to try Red Steel but I haven't really got the chance just now.
quakerworm
19 Feb 2007, 12:38
Is easier necessarily better?
depends. the problem is that if you try using a point-controller on some platform that would allow some people to use something easier, you will end up having no choice in competitive environment. i have seen some people who played fps for years with keyboard in single player, and insisted that it works much better for them than mouse. then they started playing on-line, and they switched to mouse within a week. they had no choice if they didn't want to be slaughtered mercilessly every time.
if you force people to use a point-interface on something like wii, you might just end up alienating a whole bunch of consumers. then again, in situation with no alternative, it might actually work. hard to tell. until i see a game running like that, i wouldn't make any solid predictions. all i can say for sure is whenever mouse+keyboard is an option, it might as well be an only option.
AndrewTaylor
19 Feb 2007, 15:59
I don't think there'll ever be an Unreal Tournament/Quake Arena style game on the Wii. That's not what the Wii is about. Those are the kind of games that get ported to Linux, which I think tells you everything you need to know about the kinds of people that play them; they're the same people who like dance music but don't dance.
The Wii is about immersion; if you're playing a golf game you do a golf swing. If you're playing a snooker game you use the remote like a cue. And if you're playing a shooter, you'll be using the remote as a gun because anything else is less immersive. When you fire it it'll shake and make a loud "bang", and then whatever you were pointing it at will die. It might not be the most blisteringly efficient way of controlling the game, but it's by a mile the most intuitive and easiest to pick up, and it'll give a much better sense of realism than a mouse and keyboard.
You're right about the competitive aspect, but on the Wii that's not an issue as nobody has a mouse. The point is that Alien King said "unless you have a gun controller or pointer for the console" and in doing so revealed he has been living in a cave for the last year or so.
quakerworm
19 Feb 2007, 23:03
it still feels a bit like going into a boxing match with both arms tied behind the back. the fact that the opponent is in the same situation helps to make it fair, but not necessarily less awkward.
well, did you say red steel is an fps? i might just rent a wii for the weekend one of these days, and try something like that.
AndrewTaylor
19 Feb 2007, 23:56
it still feels a bit like going into a boxing match with both arms tied behind the back. the fact that the opponent is in the same situation helps to make it fair, but not necessarily less awkward.
Hang on, though, if there was a big button marked "win game" that would make life easier. The aim is to be immersing and fun, not simple. You don't want to be able to kill someone too easily; it should be a challenge. Otherwise it all boils down to worm placement.
quakerworm
20 Feb 2007, 00:54
here, i think, it is very important to distinguish between game rules and game controls. button for "win game" simplifies game rules. mouse simplifies game controls. i believe that a game should be complex due to rules (note: not necessarily the same as complex rules. e.g. checkers) but have as simple controls as possible. the universal rules of shooters are move-aim-fire with weapon/item pickups thrown in for spice. there could be some variation in how you move, but since most games make you surface-dependent, if not surface bound, it mostly boils down to how much the game lets you jump. within this rule set, mouse+keyboard is the simplest control method, which is why anything else feels awkward.
now, i can understand some people finding more enjoyment in control complexity than rule complexity. maybe you are of that category, but it isn't for everyone.
p.s. sometimes i enjoy games that require complex controls due to the game rules, such as various simulations, but that's a different discussion all together.
AndrewTaylor
20 Feb 2007, 10:36
You're still thinking in terms of Quake Arena.
Think in terms of Half Life, or Splinter Cell -- they're not so much a game that involves guns as simulations of a combat situation. They're designed to be immersing and realistic. If you're shooting people with a mouse then that isn't realistic. Real guns aren't as easy to use as a mouse (for you, anyway), so why should the games' be?
It's not about complexity; it's about realism.
I mean, would you prefer Worms if you got to select your power on a bar? Do you dislike pool games that let you choose power by using your mouse as a cue? Do you hate all physical sports because you actually have to practice and develop a technique rather than just choosing what type of shot to play and pressing the right button?
quakerworm
20 Feb 2007, 11:02
from limited experience in real fire arms and some paintballing, a real gun isn't that much more difficult to shoot with than to click at something with a mouse on the screen, as long as you have a steady hand. this seems to be especially true of moving targets. it takes a bit of practice, but it takes a bit of practice with a mouse too. most people just tend to have a lot more practice with mice than with guns. the real difficulty in using a gun in a real situation is that you aren't sitting in a chair. you are running around, and taking aim while out of breath is far more difficult. it would be difficult with a mouse too.
now, if the choice was between sitting in a chair and pointing with a mouse, versus running around and aiming in 360° with something that resembles a real gun in weight and behavior, i would indeed go for the later. the choice, however, is between using a mouse to change the aim angle in 360° or using a wiimote to point at the screen and using a joystick to rotate around. in this case, the later makes me think of duck hunter on nes rather than of an immersing shooter.
and yes, i usually refuse to play pool games where i have to use the mouse as a cue. if i feel like pool, i grab some quarters and go to the bar. similarly, if you want more immersion in a shooter, i would recommend getting some paintball gear.
AndrewTaylor
20 Feb 2007, 11:50
now, if the choice was between sitting in a chair and pointing with a mouse, versus running around and aiming in 360° with something that resembles a real gun in weight and behavior, i would indeed go for the later. the choice, however, is between using a mouse to change the aim angle in 360° or using a wiimote to point at the screen and using a joystick to rotate around. in this case, the later makes me think of duck hunter on nes rather than of an immersing shooter.
Nobody's forcing you to sit. Stand up, you lazy type. Running through enemy territory in a swivel chair is hardly realistic. If you're playing Red Steel you'll be throwing grenades and waving at least one arm around like a sword; the last thing you should be doing is sitting down. And for reference, the joystick runs. You turn using the Wiimote.
quakerworm
20 Feb 2007, 21:42
standing up doesn't really feel different from sitting down for me. i need to run a mile, then it starts feeling different. maybe i can figure out a way to connect a treadmill to the wii.* the problem is that you still have only one direction. you have to be facing the screen. you can't just turn around, and shoot at someone behind you. you have to use something to scroll the screen (i'm still not sure how you use wiimote to aim and turn) which really takes all the realism out of it for me.
the idea that i do like is using the wiimote as a sword controller. for some reason, nobody has yet figured out a good way to control swords with gamepad or keyboard+mouse combo. there were some good attempts. ('die by the sword' was the first game that made a decent attempt at sword control) but it really seems like wiimote would be an ideal controller for that.
* could be pretty simple to do. if you get one of these treadmills with automatic speed adjustment, and connect the speed setting to the forward/back motion of the joystick. do any of the treadmills run backwards?
AndrewTaylor
20 Feb 2007, 23:11
the idea that i do like is using the wiimote as a sword controller. for some reason, nobody has yet figured out a good way to control swords with gamepad or keyboard+mouse combo. there were some good attempts. ('die by the sword' was the first game that made a decent attempt at sword control) but it really seems like wiimote would be an ideal controller for that.
Ironically, from what I hear it's one of Red Steel's weakest features, probably because you basically can't code AI to react to any arbitrary swordplay a player might dream up.
But I don't really see your point. Something doesn't have to be 100% realistic to be immersive. I mean, look at Half Life or Deus Ex. They were mouse based, and by todays standards had pretty forgettable graphics, they both had controls that were less than intuitive, and the physics in both was quite badly messed up, but they were immersive because they built an internally consistent world and filled it with clever characters and puzzles that you could solve in a rational and reasonable way, usually without having to think "how do I complete this level of a videogame..."
Making the controls more intuitive and realistic makes that easier whether or not you're "running around and aiming in 360° with something that resembles a real gun in weight and behavior". It's not an all-or-nothing deal; it's a sliding scale. Look at Wii Sports Tennis -- all you do on that is the shot. You can't move; that's done for you, and you can't decide tactics in doubles matches. All you can do is swing the racquet, and in doing so select power, and to an extent aim and type of shot. And it's bloody immersive (at least for a while until you get tired) because it really feels like you're playing something. It's not the same as tennis by any means, as evidenced by the fact that I can just about do it, but it's still infinitely more immersive than it would be if you did the same things with buttons and a joystick, and you're not "running around swinging in 360° with something that resembles a real tennis racquet in weight and behavior".
By the way, I've not played it, but I can only assume that the aiming is done with the light-gun feature and the turning is done using much larger swings. Swing off to the left and you turn left. If it's done well that would be very intuitive and sensitive enough that you'd have no problem swinging around and killing people.
quakerworm
20 Feb 2007, 23:57
Ironically, from what I hear it's one of Red Steel's weakest features, probably because you basically can't code AI to react to any arbitrary swordplay a player might dream up.
shame. i would like to give a shot to writing a good ai for that. too bad it's not an open platform. maybe i'll try it with ps3 some day. the fact that you have to hold the ps3 controller quite differently might interfere, but it could still work.
But I don't really see your point. Something doesn't have to be 100% realistic to be immersive. I mean, look at Half Life or Deus Ex. They were mouse based, and by todays standards had pretty forgettable graphics, they both had controls that were less than intuitive, and the physics in both was quite badly messed up, but they were immersive because they built an internally consistent world and filled it with clever characters and puzzles that you could solve in a rational and reasonable way, usually without having to think "how do I complete this level of a videogame..."
but we are talking about immersion on game-rule level again. i'm all for that. in death matches you rarely have time to mess with physics, but for single player fps, the world built around intuitive rules really adds to the experience. and yes, that's why deus ex was such a great success.
It's not an all-or-nothing deal; it's a sliding scale.
that is so, but it still depends greatly on the game. i don't really feel that aiming at a screen would make it less artificial. with sports games, you can use a full swing for everything, and the fact that the screen only takes up a part of the fov does not limit that. in fps, that makes you feel at best like you are at the shooting range. i'm not sure if that is any improvement on the mouse.
By the way, I've not played it, but I can only assume that the aiming is done with the light-gun feature and the turning is done using much larger swings. Swing off to the left and you turn left. If it's done well that would be very intuitive and sensitive enough that you'd have no problem swinging around and killing people.
that might work. it would certainly be better than aiming with a joystick, at any rate.
by the way, i'm a bit curious, do you have to calibrate the wiimote to allow you to "aim" at different parts of the screen? when you said "light-gun feature", i immediately thought of the old light-gun technology that used scan-line timing to determine where you hit, but that would not work with lcd or plasma.
AndrewTaylor
21 Feb 2007, 00:09
but we are talking about immersion on game-rule level again. i'm all for that. in death matches you rarely have time to mess with physics, but for single player fps, the world built around intuitive rules really adds to the experience. and yes, that's why deus ex was such a great success.
Exactly my point -- Quake and its ilk have diverged so far from the "conventional" FPS games that making them more like a real combat situation is like adding a plot to Tetris. But a traditional, plot-driven FPS game, even if its something as simple as Doom, will be better if you can make it more realistic or intuitive.
by the way, i'm a bit curious, do you have to calibrate the wiimote to allow you to "aim" at different parts of the screen? when you said "light-gun feature", i immediately thought of the old light-gun technology that used scan-line timing to determine where you hit, but that would not work with lcd or plasma.
The Wii comes with a rather sleek thing called a "Sensor Bar" which is a rather grandiose name for two IR emitters. It sits atop your TV and plugs into the Wii solely for power. (If you're a girl, two tea-lights will do the job with only minimal flickering about of the cursor.) The Wiimote has an IR sensor on the end, so it can tell from where the lights are, how far apart they are, and what angle they're at where it's pointing, how far from the screen it is, and which way up it is (though it knew that already from its accelerometers). I think it can be calibrated, but nine times out of ten its as easy just to calibrate yourself to the controller; I doubt if most people really know where they're aiming as long as the same aim always points to the same bit of screen.
quakerworm
21 Feb 2007, 01:01
yeah, i know about the way it uses ir, and i even read about people using candles for it. the thing is that the ir emitters don't tell the wiimote how big the screen is, which is why i wondered about calibration. if an assumption can be made that the ir emitters will sit perfectly centered right over the screen, i suppose a simple menu with aspect ratio and screen's diagonal would do the trick.
But a traditional, plot-driven FPS game, even if its something as simple as Doom, will be better if you can make it more realistic or intuitive.
that might be so. i was really thinking more about death matches than story-based fps. i think i'd still prefer a mouse in doom3, but for something like deus ex, a wiimote might work pretty well.
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