View Full Version : Why, oh why, oh why!!
yorkie1990
8 Jan 2007, 23:14
Ms.Pacman on XBLA this week. LINK (http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2007/01/08/539825.aspx)
No worms. Please T17 push for it next wed atleast.
This is what we've had the past 3 weeks:
Rally X - Awful
Nothing - Awful
Ms.Pacman - Are you actually joking?
Then next week:
Worms?? - Please god please!!!
retireduser1
8 Jan 2007, 23:28
I hear you on the quality of the XBLA releases as of late. I like 1up.com take on the last release.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3156174
I was really hoping it did come out this week. I'm still on break, so I would have had a lot of time to dedicate to it.
Hey, there's no need to turn Team17's forums into an XBLA whining party.
Worms is coming soon, and that's great! And even if Ms Pacman is pointless, it's still better than what we got last year, which was months at a time with no new releases at all.
yorkie1990
9 Jan 2007, 22:25
Hey, there's no need to turn Team17's forums into an XBLA whining party.
Worms is coming soon, and that's great! And even if Ms Pacman is pointless, it's still better than what we got last year, which was months at a time with no new releases at all.
I guess, it just get so fristrating especially since Heavy Weapons is the week after (but thats ment to be OKish) Not as good as worms though!!
Yeah...where's this announcement that was supposed to happen during CES?
DaKing240
10 Jan 2007, 01:04
Yeah... Ms. Pac Man is tomorrow, and Heavy Weapon is the week after. My assumption is Worms in a surprise launch this week, or the Wednesday following Heavy Weapon (the 24th of January)
Darius2
10 Jan 2007, 16:17
I guess, it just get so fristrating especially since Heavy Weapons is the week after (but thats ment to be OKish) Not as good as worms though!!
Yeah, I understand (although I'm actually quite excited for Heavy Weapon). But it's not Team17's fault that we get crap like New Rally-X. They're only working on 1 game.
CES is not over yet. Let's wait and see what happens before we complain about no announcement happening.
Yeah...where's this announcement that was supposed to happen during CES?
And where did the assumption come from that it would be announced at CES? This was purely speculation. The game was on show though.
It's close.
And where did the assumption come from that it would be announced at CES?
you said the official announcement will happen at CES :rolleyes:
I cant quote it because the thread was deleted ;)
retireduser1
10 Jan 2007, 17:21
And where did the assumption come from that it would be announced at CES? This was purely speculation. The game was on show though.
It's close.
There were a few, always "reliable," blogs that stated it was coming during CES. I think this came about because in the past Microsoft has reserved big press events as an opportunity to make available big name XBLA releases. Also, I think some people were a little confused about how some blogs stated it was going to be 'announced' at CES; I believe people took announced to mean released.
Plus, we want worms, so will latch onto any news telling us that it is coming sooner rather then later, even if its not true. :)
yorkie1990
10 Jan 2007, 17:21
you said the official announcement will happen at CES :rolleyes:
I cant quote it because the thread was deleted ;)
lol, yeh spadge you said there will be an announcment at CES and it will be realeased hot on the heels of the announcment
Don't tell me!!!:( Please nooo
I do hope that the info that there would be an announcment at CES is info you shouldn't have told us, so your covering your ass now, lol
Metal Alex
10 Jan 2007, 17:47
Hello. I'm The english language. Please, stop raping me now.
SpaceInsom
10 Jan 2007, 19:13
lol, yeh spadge you said there will be an announcment at CES and it will be realeased hot on the heels of the announcment
Don't tell me!!!:( Please nooo
I do hope that the info that there would be an announcment at CES is info you shouldn't have told us, so your covering your ass now, lol
That's not it at all. The game was announced at CES. It's not like they were going to make it part of the keynote speech. Bill Gates: "Soon, you'll be able to play IPTV through your xbox, and even better than that, you'll be able to play Worms!" They showed a video and the game was "announced". I think this is when the world was first supposed to see Worms XBLA for the first time, which is why Gametrailers.com was made to pull their video of the game. What Spadge didn't say, was that a release date would be announced. They never do that until a day or two before, so I knew that wasn't going to happen. Sucks, but it's just the way MS runs their show.
[edit] Then again, I will agree that Spadge made it sound like it would release very soon after the CES announcement. Now it's looking like it might be a couple weeks or longer. :(
Until the game has totally cleared certification, we can't give the date, I've said that all along. I've attached a screenshot of the game clearly visible on the MS booth - that's a reasonable announcement that Worms is coming!
retireduser1
11 Jan 2007, 07:13
Until the game has totally cleared certification, we can't give the date, I've said that all along. I've attached a screenshot of the game clearly visible on the MS booth - that's a reasonable announcement that Worms is coming!
Just out of curiosity, is this announcement only an announcement of the fact that Worms XBLA exists, or is there more information coming out with the announcement?
MtlAngelus
11 Jan 2007, 07:33
Just out of curiosity, is this announcement only an announcement of the fact that Worms XBLA exists, or is there more information coming out with the announcement?
Just that it exists, most likely. They probably will release more info on the game probably one or two days before release.
IGN previews Worms: http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/754/754374p1.html
(not much new info)
goody71
11 Jan 2007, 16:31
IGN previews Worms: http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/754/754374p1.html
(not much new info)
nice! i can't wait! but i guess i have to:(
and go easy on Ms. PacMan, it has 2 warp tunnels! TWO!!!
Turboman
11 Jan 2007, 17:17
Spadge at CES with major Nelson (http://www.xbox.com/NR/rdonlyres/1BD60A28-A11C-42AA-B56F-E6AC255BE917/0/vidLive_ArcadeHi.asx)
LeafHater
11 Jan 2007, 19:32
Spadge at CES with major Nelson (http://www.xbox.com/NR/rdonlyres/1BD60A28-A11C-42AA-B56F-E6AC255BE917/0/vidLive_ArcadeHi.asx)
Nice link all those games mentioned including worms look cool.
When I can afford to get a 360 (stupid university debt) you can be sure Worms will be one of the 1st arcade games I will be getting
SpaceInsom
11 Jan 2007, 21:11
Spadge at CES with major Nelson (http://www.xbox.com/NR/rdonlyres/1BD60A28-A11C-42AA-B56F-E6AC255BE917/0/vidLive_ArcadeHi.asx)
Darn it. For some reason this link won't work for me. It opens my video player, but nothing comes up. Any chance someone here could throw this on You Tube, or something like that?
Darn it. For some reason this link won't work for me. It opens my video player, but nothing comes up. Any chance someone here could throw this on You Tube, or something like that?
I have asx files linked with Winamp. Worked for me.
SupSuper
11 Jan 2007, 23:33
It redirects to this: mms://wm.microsoft.com/ms/xbox/video/CES2007/Live_Arcade-Hi.wmv
Evenrute
12 Jan 2007, 01:18
http://www.xbox360achievements.org/home/
Look at the Jan 9th entry.
Even
alex atkin
12 Jan 2007, 02:45
http://www.xbox360achievements.org/home/
Look at the first entry....
Even
Those achievements shouldnt be too hard for us Worms addicts. Looks like it will be the first game where I can actually gain all the achievements.
DaKing240
12 Jan 2007, 08:13
Wow, its very weird to see my site being sourced... thanks everyone
Evenrute
12 Jan 2007, 23:27
According to IGN, a different game - Heavy weapons will be available on Wednesday...another week possibly goes by. Maybe we get a 2 fer...
IGN Article (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/755/755207p1.html)
E
Darius2
13 Jan 2007, 00:40
At least Heavy Weapon is a cool game, though. And there's nothing else quite like it on the arcade right now. I'm actually looking forward to this one even if it's not Worms. :)
If Worms comes out in January, this will be a great month for XBLA in spite of an off week.
I thought there was supposed to be some sort of press release?
MS only do official PR release the week it goes live...
DaKing240
13 Jan 2007, 07:19
Sometimes developers hint when a game is near... hence I was able to find out out when Heavy Weapon was coming out before IGN and all the sites posted it...
In fact, I was quoted on GameSpot, Xbox360Fanboy, and 1UP among other sites. Oddly, my goal was to find out when Worms was coming out.
Hopefully I will find out something for our site before I get the official Microsoft Press Release...hopefully...
My goal is to also do more events like this:
http://daking240.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!4E7F2CA27C6366BE!220.entry
Would Team17 be interested in hosting a small demo in England before the game goes live? I can easily be reached via XBL - DaKing240 :)
We'd be up for doing something... soon(ish) :)
I'm feeling February for Worms. :)
Been lurking for a while since I heard news of Worms for XBLA. Glad I saw those other threads before they got nuked - some interesting details.
Anyway, can someone tell Mr Gates that I'm not buying another XBLA title until Worms comes out :( If I see Castlevania there first I'll cry. A grown man crying - is that what you want Mr Gates? Hmmm???
yorkie1990
13 Jan 2007, 22:50
Sometimes developers hint when a game is near... hence I was able to find out out when Heavy Weapon was coming out before IGN and all the sites posted it...
In fact, I was quoted on GameSpot, Xbox360Fanboy, and 1UP among other sites. Oddly, my goal was to find out when Worms was coming out.
Hopefully I will find out something for our site before I get the official Microsoft Press Release...hopefully...
My goal is to also do more events like this:
http://daking240.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!4E7F2CA27C6366BE!220.entry
Would Team17 be interested in hosting a small demo in England before the game goes live? I can easily be reached via XBL - DaKing240 :)
So basically your just guessing, kind of. just gathring random info and giving an innacurate picture of when it will be released??
yorkie1990
13 Jan 2007, 22:50
We'd be up for doing something... soon(ish) :)
lol, trying to say it's coming out soon but without giving away to much info.
lol.
DaKing240
13 Jan 2007, 23:12
So basically your just guessing, kind of. just gathring random info and giving an innacurate picture of when it will be released??
Or... getting information directly from the Developer, posting the achievement information (including the pictures) that they sent, and then posting it before any major site got news.
No guess work at all.
yorkie1990
13 Jan 2007, 23:19
Or... getting information directly from the Developer, posting the achievement information (including the pictures) that they sent, and then posting it before any major site got news.
No guess work at all.
So did you talk to the Heavy Weapons Devs, and if it's almost top secret info, why would they tell you it was comeing out, next week
iceydragon
14 Jan 2007, 02:52
So did you talk to the Heavy Weapons Devs, and if it's almost top secret info, why would they tell you it was comeing out, next week
Firstly, you just 'assumed' that the information was top secret there (which ironically is worse then guessing :rolleyes:), secondly Heavy Weapon is developed by Popcap Games, very much a developer that specializes in the casual game space, so possibly any publicity is good publicity in their eyes. Since it is coming next Wednesday, I guess they were probably allowed to give a release date when it is so close to release.
I spoke and met with James from Popcap and for anyone near the Microsoft XBLA spot at CES, it was reasonably open news that Heavy Weapon was slated for the release after MS Pacman. Our title was still going through some last minute certification stuff whilst I was out there (some global age-rating confirmations were pending and 2-3 bugs needed clearing up) so we couldn't confirm the date - and as I say, MS prefer a focused PR week around the release. It's clear that there's a lot of interest in Worms though and it should prove a very popular live title.
In addition, more people took Worms pics and footage and they took photos of all the Worms achievements and stuff (these are available online) - and are based on playing/enjoying the game rather than odd & bizarre quirks.
retireduser1
14 Jan 2007, 05:45
It's clear that there's a lot of interest in Worms though and it should prove a very popular live title.
I know I'm looking forward to playing it on my HDTV and bad mouthing my friends with voice chat, hehe.
iceydragon
14 Jan 2007, 07:59
I know I'm looking forward to playing it on my HDTV and bad mouthing my friends with voice chat, hehe.
...which reminds me, that interview with Major Nelson for Xbox.com about Worms, very 'professional' *cough* job you did there Spadge. Pretty damn accurate about Xbox Live, and good choice of words also... :rolleyes:
...still, trash talk is nothing compared to the humiliation that is 'death by prod'. :eek:
quakerworm
14 Jan 2007, 08:20
A grown man crying - is that what you want Mr Gates? Hmmm???
*quakerworm shakes his magic 8-ball*
"signs point to yes"
yorkie1990
14 Jan 2007, 14:35
Firstly, you just 'assumed' that the information was top secret there (which ironically is worse then guessing :rolleyes:), secondly Heavy Weapon is developed by Popcap Games, very much a developer that specializes in the casual game space, so possibly any publicity is good publicity in their eyes. Since it is coming next Wednesday, I guess they were probably allowed to give a release date when it is so close to release.
I assumed because MS release the info about XBLA a few days before they are released
Sinistar
14 Jan 2007, 22:16
I know I'm looking forward to playing it on my HDTV and bad mouthing my friends with voice chat, hehe.
Ditto! :)
GhostySpad
15 Jan 2007, 13:48
Yeah it's going to be great! I hope that it's going to be released next week... Too bad that 31 januari is also on a wednesday so i could also come out then :( (that's so far away)...
I spoke and met with James from Popcap and for anyone near the Microsoft XBLA spot at CES, it was reasonably open news that Heavy Weapon was slated for the release after MS Pacman. Our title was still going through some last minute certification stuff whilst I was out there (some global age-rating confirmations were pending and 2-3 bugs needed clearing up) so we couldn't confirm the date - and as I say, MS prefer a focused PR week around the release. It's clear that there's a lot of interest in Worms though and it should prove a very popular live title.
In addition, more people took Worms pics and footage and they took photos of all the Worms achievements and stuff (these are available online) - and are based on playing/enjoying the game rather than odd & bizarre quirks.
Surely an achievement or two involving say...1000 games of Live, or something just as time-consuming should have been considered for the achivement addicts around?
Love Worms to bits, but the 360 community is very...sheep-like. Running from one game to another, being pleased at getting a few achievements, bing bang bomb. Especially with the Arcade, they get all the achievements for say, pac-man and never touch it again. Even though the game is addictive to try and improve your high score etc.
Uh, where was I? Oh yes. Well hope all goes well on the release, hope the controls handle well (hard to do with a d-pad thats quite crappy) and pay deadcode to get Armageddon done already. Its been...6 years I've been waiting now (since I first bought it).
And I thought I was kidding when I said "we'll be dead at this rate!"
Oh dear..
Till the next time I post in a years time.
NEG
AndrewTaylor
16 Jan 2007, 10:55
I vote we have a sweepstakes.
I take 7th February.
DaKing240
16 Jan 2007, 16:27
I take the 14th then.
Darius2
16 Jan 2007, 19:44
I'll take the longshot, January 24th. I should get at least 2:1 odds though. ;)
quakerworm
17 Jan 2007, 04:14
I take the 14th then.
poor choice. i would expect 'soft to do something "special" for valentine's.
Grimz13
17 Jan 2007, 04:38
You guys missed Jan 31st the week after the 24th. ill take the 31st
DaKing240
17 Jan 2007, 06:29
poor choice. i would expect 'soft to do something "special" for valentine's.
And who wouldn't fall in love with some Worms gameplay?
Sinistar
18 Jan 2007, 00:53
I vote we have a sweepstakes.
I take 7th February.
I'll take Feb 21st. It would make a great birthday present for me if it came out on that day. :P
Popetastic
18 Jan 2007, 19:29
No Worms next week either.
From gamerscoreblog.comGood things come in threes, and next week’s Arcade Wednesday release is no exception to that rule. Three new packages of Lumines Live! content will be available for download on Xbox Live Arcade for Xbox 360™ beginning Wednesday, Jan. 24, at 9 a.m. GMT (1 a.m. PST). Two of the add-on packs will be available at special promotional prices, and one of them will be free to Xbox Box Live Gold Members for a limited time!
hell, i would've taken Catan over freakin lumines.
Grimz13
18 Jan 2007, 22:06
Jeez we were all tricked. No annoucement just a half-ass "coming soon" at CES. No new info for like 3 weeks. No date. Every wednesday comes by and every wednesday we get let down. Trickery i tell you! TRICKERY!!!!!!
No trickery, still not out of cert yet. (i.e. not passed for release yet)
yorkie1990
18 Jan 2007, 23:27
rudding crap.
I doubt you can tell us. But any idea when it will be out of cert?
also a quick question. how did you get into game developing. Looks interesting and i was wondering what you need to be able to do kind of thingy?
Grimz13
19 Jan 2007, 00:32
Not even out of cert yet? Jeez looks like it will be Febuary then. if 24th is Luminies Live then the 31st is probably one of those 5 other games. (AH, Paperboy, Minigolf, Street trace, Sotn). My guess is Febuary 14 seeing as final week of cert should only take another week. Then 1 week to get on live but that spot will most likely be filled with one of the other games. Worms should be next see as it is highly anticipated. I dont no how much longer i can wait. i was hoping next week but nope.
Anyways any new information you can give out. on the release? The game features, modes etc.? the annoucement Ill take anything!!!!
wickedfool
19 Jan 2007, 02:24
Its supposedly been in testing for quite some time now. It would be nice to have some idea as to when this game will see daylight from the clutches of Microsoft certification. Spadge, cant you throw us small hint as to when we could see it? Not to sound impatient, though I probably already sound that way, but their has to be something you can tell us. Maybe some weapons, options, more screenshots maybe to hold us over until the day Microsoft lets go.
Is this really a certification process holding up the game or is this a strategic release to counter something else? I would hope that as soon as it passes, they will make it available.
It really isn't out of cert yet. As ever, small things crop up, small changes are requested/required, small things missed etc. There are certainly no delay tactics being employed by anyone; not us, not Microsoft and not VMC who are testing - it's very unfortunate, but there you go. We were working towards a specific release date but that's been impossible due to last minute fixes/additions and re-testing.
We will not give out any further feature information until nearer release. It's still close btw, but obviously it will accelerate once certified for release.
We're under the impression that it'll get a release slot very shortly after full approval.
also a quick question. how did you get into game developing. Looks interesting and i was wondering what you need to be able to do kind of thingy?
That's not a quick answer :-)
also a quick question. how did you get into game developing. Looks interesting and i was wondering what you need to be able to do kind of thingy?
I know you didn't ask me, but...
I did it by playing with direct x. First I made an image move around as I required. Then I moved the image using a keyboard. Then I animated the image. Then I coded a simple collision detection system.
Then 2 friends and myself created a small adventure game. It was all 2d, but it is a starting block. One of the friends involved worked at Kuju in Sheffield, and now works at Rockstar Leeds having used this game as one of his demostrations of what he can do.
I'd recommend learning XNA and C#. It'll let you create things with relative ease and also make them appear quite professional. Alternatively, look at things like Torque, Ogre or Blitz 3D. They only really require scripting to get results.
Start by making something simple, like tetris. There are thousands of open source examples if you get stuck. then move onto something more complicated. Build up a portfolio and apply for jobs.
A degree might help (software engineering or a graphics degree) but I doubt they are necessary.
quakerworm
19 Jan 2007, 09:56
I'd recommend learning XNA and C#.
if you want to learn the programming end of game design, you should avoid shortcuts like that, at least until you know how to code properly. learn c. learn some assembly. when you know enough about programming, you can decide if you even need something like that. if you are not planning to become a game coder, and just want to know a bit about how it is done, play with some games that allow you create mods by scripting. it's not real programming, but it would give you some idea about how it is done without taking too long to learn.
AndrewTaylor
19 Jan 2007, 10:14
Oh, programming is programming is programming.
You just have to learn how to work out how to tell a computer to do something. That's the same mental technique in any language, and it's the biggest obstacle most people face when learning to code. To that end you can use BASIC for all it matters, and then use something more advanced later. Learning assembly, surely, is a waste of time for anyone who's not already an advanced programmer? Aside from the fact that it's difficult, you won't get a nice result you can feel good about, and that would be demotivating.
Oh, programming is programming is programming.
You just have to learn how to work out how to tell a computer to do something. That's the same mental technique in any language, and it's the biggest obstacle most people face when learning to code. To that end you can use BASIC for all it matters, and then use something more advanced later. Learning assembly, surely, is a waste of time for anyone who's not already an advanced programmer? Aside from the fact that it's difficult, you won't get a nice result you can feel good about, and that would be demotivating.
I spent half an hour trying to say this, AndrewTaylor. Thanks.
Besides, I know of 4 people currently working as games programmers. None of them have used assembler in their lives. only one of them has used C++ (not even C) and the others have only used Lua.
XNA and C# is low level enough that you can write your own collision detection routines (if you really wanted to) but high level enough to create good looking games with relative ease. And it is easy to debug.
My friend created tetris using it. It doesn't look bad, either.
http://dunmanifestin.co.uk/Projects.html
The source is available in the zip file, if you download it.
Above all, programming skills are interchangeable. You learn one language, you can pick up another with ease. The same with toolkits. You learn XNA, you can learn an in-house toolkit without problem.
Vercetti
19 Jan 2007, 11:12
Only used LUA? You aren't going to create a commerical game in that but it is often used to write missions for games.
Only used LUA? You aren't going to create a commerical game in that but it is often used to write missions for games.
But things like Buzz use a generic middleware bought from another company (say Renderware from Criterion) and the rest is scripted. Ok, Buzz isn't that complex, you'll usually find that the people who make the game engines aren't the people who make the game.
A game called pilot academy (a bit like Pilot Wings, coming out for the PSP), again, the engine was made to include variables like gravity, velocity, etc. Then all the planes, missons, menus, etc are written in Lua.
EDIT My point is: for a games developer to write a game from start to finish is uneconomical. It costs more, and usually makes the game late, and you usually find that they buy the game engine and script the game. Very little 'real' programming can go into it if the engine is bought.
I don't know how Team 17 work. They might write there own engines and stuff, or they might use readily available tools to create their games, but I know of 2 different studios who work as I described.
AndrewTaylor
19 Jan 2007, 11:40
I think they made the XOM engine; I've never heard of it anywhere else and W3D is pretty unlike anything else out there so an appropriate engine may have been hard to come by. But it's been used in three games already. I think some places must make engines then recycle them.
Heck, I heard Rare's Jet Force Gemini on N64 was made from the Diddy Kong Racing engine.
quakerworm
19 Jan 2007, 17:48
learning assembler is a waste of time. learning assembly isn't. understanding how stack and memory operations work when you perform function calls and invoke things like new/malloc is crucial. imagine you are writing a recursive algorithm, and it keeps crashing because the program can't handle such deep recursion. your actions? if you know assembly, you know that the crash occurs because of stack overflow, and allocating memory in data segment using new or malloc rather than using local variables will help with that. if you know how local variables are allocated, you know how to grab variables from parent function calls by tracing back states of esb pointer through the stack. you don't use assembly to do any of that, but you will not know how to do that if you never learned assembly. many memory operations can be made faster in assembly, especially if you can make some assumptions about cpu family that the code will run on. you will also need to know assembly if you ever use a debugger. if you don't understand how variables are stored and passed within a program, you will get lost in the assembly code, and the debugger will do nothing for you. if you do know how these things are done, you can significantly cut the debugging time. i can go on and on with these examples. you need assembly, and the sooner you learn it, the sooner you will become a good programmer.
and yes, many languages have interchangeable skills, but not all. if you learn to program on a script or even byte interpreter language, like java, you will not understand connection between code and specific cpu operation. if you learn to program in c#, you do not learn careful memory management and protection. on the other hand, if you learn c++, you learn everything there is to know about programming. so why start with something that will take you part of the way, if you can start with the best thing to learn right away? and no, starting with c++ is not any harder than starting with basic. the only additional difficulty for a starting programmer is that in c++ you have to know functions, and you have to remember variable declaration. plus, someone has to show you how to actually compile code. real difficulty in starting to program is grasping concepts like nested loops, and that will be the same in c++ or basic.
finally, using something like xna will not help you learn how it actually works. it's always a good idea to start by learning how to code every part, even if your own code will not be particularly good. when you are working on commercial projects, you will decide if developing things from scratch to better optimize them is worth it, or if you want to grab a library. when you learn to program, you want to do things like matrix transformations, collision detection, and menu navigation with your own code, so that you learn how it's actually done.
as for xom files in w3d and w4, if i recall correctly, there were developed externally, not by t17. the reason you haven't seen them in other games is because they are primarily used for data banks, and not for game resources. many of w3d's and w4's resources are structured as trees. maps are a great example of that. xom is all about trees, and can be edited with relative ease by converting to and from xml format, so it makes sense that t17 used the format. though, i must say, memory usage with maps in xom format is extremely inefficient.
AndrewTaylor
19 Jan 2007, 19:43
and no, starting with c++ is not any harder than starting with basic.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you've been using computers for almost as long as you've been using oxygen. You know how they work and, more to the point, care. Your computer is just as full of weird system tray applications as anyone else's, if not more, but unlike most people you know what they all do and how to stop them. You defragment your hard disk voluntarily, if not actually recreationally. If that's not true then please don't be offended; I say this only because you are increasingly reminding me of a good friend I had once who was much the same, and who also advocated a combination of assembly and C++ as language of choice for all tasks. But C++ will not "take you all the way there", because there isn't a journey. It's like swimming, or riding a bike; it's a skill you learn.
BASIC is like programming with stabilisers on. You can't crash and you can't fall over. It handles string lengths for you and it takes care of all the low-level stuff so you don't have to worry about it. You can learn the basics of programming -- how to think in for loops and how to translate an abstract idea like "find a route through this maze" into a logical and well-definied sequence of commands -- and you don't have to do it while balancing your metaphorical bike on a railing. (I've made this bike metaphor into a trials bike metaphor. Probably should have mentioned that sooner.) These are the skills that are transferrable across all programming languages, no matter what you think. They're skills so fundamental you forget they're skills rather than something your brain just does on its own. For some people that's what they are. Maybe you're one of them; I suspect my friend was. Is, I should say. I expect he's still alive somewhere. I'm sure I'd have heard were he not.
C++ is like programming with gears and a water bottle and a dynamo powering a tiny little lamp. At night. You can't start out doing it because you'll fall over. You'll be so busy balancing you'll forget to change gear and never make it up hills. You'll concentrate too hard on going in a straight line and you'll end up with your trousers caught in the gears. Trying to learn C++ when you don't even know how to programme is like that. You can't learn to allocate the right size buffer unless you know -- no, "understand" is a better word -- what a buffer is and what it's for. You can't learn to use the right kind of variable unless you first learn how to use a variable.
And, above all else, if you mess up, which you will, repeatedly, C++ will tell you "parse error" or "exception error" or it will say nothing and just give you crazy results (which is an utter pain to debug and probably impossible for someone who's just starting out), whereas BASIC will tell you what is wrong and where it is wrong. It will look out for overflows, and underflows, and tell you if they happen. It will tell you if you stray outside an array's bounds. It will make sure your string buffers are all the right length, and it will do it without you asking it to or decoding any assembly. Once you've got your head around how to programme, then you can start handling your own buffers and stacks and memory allocations and variable types and so forth, and the same applies to graphic card handling, keyboard handlers, mouse and gamepad input, and so forth. You learn that when you're good enough to understand what it's all for and how it should work. You can't "start by learning to code every part" because that's an overwhelming task that I honestly believe only a very few people could do.
You start in the shallow end, and swim to the deep end when you're ready. You do not jump into the sea and expect it to "take you all the way there".
And personally, I still use the simplest language I can find. I use C# and Matlab at work, because I don't care if my programme could run 100%, 20%, 0.5% faster. I just need to make it work, quickly, to see if the concept is good, and as it goes I'm not remotely interested in low-level hardware coding. I'd much rather find a new way of doing something -- or better still, a way of doing something new -- than find an incrementally faster set of instructions that will do something that everyone else can do.
What makes me a good programmer is that I can deconstruct a problem and rebuild it in a way a computer can solve it. I don't know how to trace an esb pointer through a stack, or even what the bloody hell an esb pointer is, but then I don't need to, any more than you need to worry about making your software operable using only one's feet to avoid cross-contamination issues. (Really; I hate doing that.)
There's the most powerful tool, and there's the most appropriate. C++ is the former, and sometimes the latter. But not always, and never for beginners.
quakerworm
19 Jan 2007, 20:57
most of it i can agree with. i occasionally use mathematica or some scripting language (e.g. python) if i need something quickly computed or just throw together some proof-of-concept design.
the first language i learned was basic. i was 7 when i first tried writing code in it, though, i didn't write anything serious until i was 9 or so. the problem with that that i had, and i've seen many others have, is that you don't really learn how the program works. yes, you get to understand loops, conditionals, and maybe even functions a little bit, but you get used to the fact that when you need something done, you should be trying to find some obscure built-in function that does it. you get used to variables just being there. and you have no idea how any of it all fits together. what do you get in return? some additional memory protection and lack of compiler errors.
by starting with c, you don't need to know how to allocate memory on the run time. you don't need to know right away how to use pointers, where functions go, and how the stack operates. you start with the same simple concepts of loops and conditionals, with an additional load of learning a few variable types and making sure that your code is always in some function. yes, debugging can be trickier, but you would rarely find beginner programs that are complex enough to crash. all problems come up during compilation, and you can fix them just as easily as run time errors you'd get in a script. the benefit of that is that you get used right away to the fact that variables need to be declared. you learn to watch data types. you build your own code. as you progress, you learn to understand how pointers work (i still don't know how to do pointers in basic, and i have written a 3d rendering engine with projection matricies in qbasic before i switched to c++) and how to understand functions as pointers. you learn the basics, you build on them, and you don't pick up any bad programming habits, like goto loops.
AndrewTaylor
19 Jan 2007, 23:26
yes, debugging can be trickier, but you would rarely find beginner programs that are complex enough to crash.
Oh, but there are...
All you have to do to crash C++ is make a typo. I promise you all beginner C++ programmers, whether they come via basic or not, will at some point use = instead of ==. I do it myself from time to time. That causes all kinds of bizarre bugs. And it doesn't have a "string" type. The BASIC programme:10. INPUT "What is your name?"; name$
20. PRINT "Hello, "; name$; "."in C means defining a char buffer and finding a way to stop that buffer overflowing -- I suspect the standard beginners' trick would be to define that buffer to hold about a megabyte of data, and honestly, I couldn't tell you the best way to write that programme in C (not least because I've not tried to do a console applciation in years and have forgotten most of the commands, but still, that's the second programme you're ever taught to write after Ten Print Hello World; it should be easy -- its only job is to introduce the concept of variables, not to teach buffer overflow and console input functions. That's running before you can reliably identify your own feet).
Hmm. That was a punctuational nightmare. Sorry about that.
yorkie1990
19 Jan 2007, 23:46
any chance any of you guys could sum up the last 4 massive posts in to 1 or 2 paragraphs. Much to much to read! LOL
quakerworm
20 Jan 2007, 04:07
Oh, but there are...
All you have to do to crash C++ is make a typo. I promise you all beginner C++ programmers, whether they come via basic or not, will at some point use = instead of ==. I do it myself from time to time. That causes all kinds of bizarre bugs.
if the value you are comparing to isn't an l-value, compiler will give you an error. if it is, an assignment will be made, which might mess up your logic, or even cause an infinite loop, but it won't start causing crashes until you start working with pointers.
And it doesn't have a "string" type. The BASIC programme:10. INPUT "What is your name?"; name$
20. PRINT "Hello, "; name$; "."
#include "stdio.h"
int main(void)
{
char name[1024];
printf("What is your name? ");
scanf("%s",name);
printf("Hello, %s.\n",name);
return 0
}
yeah, that is so much worse. :rolleyes:
yes, you have to introduce a char array, but that's a good thing. you don't tell someone to use a magic object that is string. you tell them to allocate 1024 bytes to store individual letters of the string, with 0 meaning the string has ended. you are actually teaching how the program works! and when you'll show me a person with over 1023 letters in their name, we can talk about buffer overflows.
#include "stdio.h"
int main(void)
{
char name[1024];
printf("What is your name? ");
scanf("%s",name);
printf("Hello, %s.\n",name);
return 0
}
yeah, that is so much worse. :rolleyes:
It looks much worse to me.
OK, so maybe having to tell the computer how to work IS a good thing, and I'm not going to doubt that, but the point is that QBasic and other similar program langages are great for most people because otherwise it all goes WAY over you're head unless you really know what you're doing.
I've never had a lesson in coding, or read a book, or anything like that. My first proper move into coding was when I made a rubbish Breakout clone on the PS2's free coding language YaBasic. Sure, it was simple, buggy as hell, and couldn't cope with drawing more than 20 blocks on screen at once until the refresh speed got the better of it and refused to draw half of them, but the point is is that such a simpler program was the ideal starting place. I was well chuffed with what I'd made.
Now, I can carry those skills, to some extent, to other languages, for example, Sludge (http://www.hungrysoftware.com/tools/sludge/features.html), which I'm using at the moment. I've only been 'coding' since I was 16, instead of your 7, so I'm no where near as good as you when it comes to coding.
OK, so in about 10 years time with the proper lessons and so on, I may be as good as you and agree that assembly and c are so much better, but at least with this simpler start I can get programs made that work well because I understand the principles behind programming, and I stay motivated because I'm not continually coming up with vague errrors. Maybe then, I'll move onto proper codng to allocate my resources better and so on by doing it myself.
Just remember, although you are saying that starting out with c is much better than starting with Basic and such like, you also started out using these 'easier' programs. Do you think you would have found learning c as easy if you hadn't started out using basic? Probably not. It may have confused you loads and even hampered your learning, it might not of. Who can say?
Looking back at my post, I've realied that I've added nothing to this argument, so please disregard my post.
AndrewTaylor
20 Jan 2007, 11:42
Well I know a name of 1024 characters is unlikely, but see, if I put in a well-calculated name of a million characters I might be able to use this programme as an exploiting tool. Remember, we're learning to code every part now...
Oh, and...#include "stdio.h"
int main(void)
{
char name[1024];
printf("What is your name? ");
scanf("%s",name);
printf("Hello, %s.\n",name);
return 0
}
yeah, that is so much worse. :rolleyes:PARSE ERROR ON LINE 8.
So yeah, if you can't do it...
quakerworm
20 Jan 2007, 17:24
actually, the error will be on line 9, and it will say, "expected ;". if that wouldn't tell you to look back at line 8 and check for a semicolon, you just really shouldn't try to program. ever.
yes, you can overflow that program. you won't need megabytes of code. the name array will be followed immediately by the old value of the frame pointer, and then the return address. if you write over the return address you can send it to execute the stack, and your 1k of code already entered can serve as your custom function. and that's a lesson right there. only, i don't see a reason to bring up buffer overflow attacks in a beginner class. still, if you want 100% secure version of that code, here it is:
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
int main(void)
{
char *name=(char*)malloc(1024);
printf("What is your name? ");
scanf("%s",name);
printf("Hello, %s.\n",name);
return 0;
}
now the buffer is in the data segment. if you overflow it, the worst that can happen in this program is that you will crash the program with gpf. note that i didn't use free(name); in this program on purpose.
by the way, i'd be surprised if any version of line-edited basic, or even qbasic, had protection against string overflows on input. vb probably does, but that's a different story.
Wrathchild
21 Jan 2007, 05:14
In the famous words of worms: "Get on with it!"
retireduser1
22 Jan 2007, 00:19
In the famous words of worms: "Get on with it!"
I think that line applies really well to the current waiting for worms. :)
Metal Alex
23 Jan 2007, 15:45
any chance any of you guys could sum up the last 4 massive posts in to 1 or 2 paragraphs. Much to much to read! LOL
Nope. Absolutely impossible.
yorkie1990
23 Jan 2007, 16:48
Nope. Absolutely impossible.
Lol thought so
Hmm... actually, I have a different opinion on getting started:
Gamemaker (http://www.gamemaker.nl)! Although often criticised by some people here, notably the ones that haven't actually used it prperly themselves.
To put it simply;
It pre-installs a great all-round 2D engine, so you can start with your programs straight away.
The very user-friendly layout of the program makes it quick to learn.
It has a unique way of introducing people to programming: it starts off with very little programming required, just needing easy things such as coordinates, speed, and other variables, and uses pre-set functions and visual-object-placing to make games instead. This makes it very easy for beginners to get the hang of making their own games, and even a tetris clone is one of the first games you can make! After this, it continuously takes you more and more into the programming side of making games, with easy things such as self-correcting obvious errors. (no '=' or ';' errors here, no siree!)
However, it's just a big set of stepping stones, and if you want to get into professional programming, I'd reccomend taking something like C++ straight after you realised that you mastered this.
Unless you're just sticking to small, simple (2D only) games and digital tools. In which case, this is a damn sweet way of making them!
People will probably start laughing at me for saying this but here goes:
I agree with Plasma. Game Maker isn't as bad as people think it is.
It can actually do quite complex stuff as well. Of course, when your games become big and complicated, it's more efficient to move to something else like a proper coing language (such as C++), but it's great for learning.
I've yet to finish a proper game using it, but I've made some OK stuff. I wish it had more music support than just .mid files though.
Anyway. Enough of the advertising.
I wish it had more music support than just .mid files though.
?
Yes it does. It also supports wma, mp3, and wav files. And if you add in a dll to your games, you can have ogg support too.
?
Yes it does. It also supports wma, mp3, and wav files.
I'm hardly going to add music as a wav file. And mp3's are OK I suppose. I was looking more along the lines of .mod and .it and such-like, as they're similar to .mid. The smaller file size the better.
And if you add in a dll to your games, you can have ogg support too.
Of course, dll's. I forgot about them. Maybe they'll have the other music formats. Fantastic.
Game Maker is truly great.
SupSuper
31 Jan 2007, 12:14
I'll go out on a limb here and say that as "good" as GameMaker may be considered, coding everything yourself is a whole different bag, so if you're planning on getting into serious programming, you're better off start learning with an actual programming language and saving yourself some time. But if all you wanna do is knock up quick and easy to make games out of your bedroom, knock yourself out.
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