Idea for a 2D/3D Worms Game

[wolfdv]

Here's Team 17's next great gaming gem.

Take Woms Armageddon, add some new weapons and levels, Call it W:A Remix

But . . recreate it in sidescrolling 3D, kinda similar to Super Smash Bros / or new Super Mario Bros for the DS.

That way you can have the wonderful pretty aminated High Res 3d DX10 graphics, but preserve the 2d nature of Worms that make it great in the first place.

I would have thought you guys would have done something like this already, because it would be freakin awesome, and would just rack in the cash. :cool:

[Alien King]

So... it's W:A with some new weapons?

[Plasma]

Worms in a SSB style has already been discussed, and dropped, because it was generally decided that the levels are much too big and numberous in WA to be in 3D.

[AndrewTaylor]

People suggest this a lot and I don't see how it can be done. Either you use a slice of a larger, 3D landscape, making it hard to see and causing you to dig a narrow trench across it as the game progresses, completely obscuring your view, or else you use a thin landscape and effectively you just have 2D back, but with a worse camera. People repeatedly state that it would be "awesome" but I really can't imagine that they've thought it through, because not one of them has convinced me that it's even workable.

[iamgood]

WA: Remix? That's gotta be the worst name of a game in history... Anyway, about the SSB style, I'm sure there could be some way of using WA type 2D landscapes, exept prettier looking, and just the loose stuff like the worms, ammo- and health boxes are 3D. Oh, and the water would look nicer, and the debris and background scenery etc.

[SupSuper]

Basically, people want W:OW, with the W:A features.

[Plasma]

WA: Remix? That's gotta be the worst name of a game in history... Anyway, about the SSB style, I'm sure there could be some way of using WA type 2D landscapes, exept prettier looking, and just the loose stuff like the worms, ammo- and health boxes are 3D. Oh, and the water would look nicer, and the debris and background scenery etc.
Why would you make the worms and such 3D, if the game is going to be in 2D? Wouldn't it be much better to make it 2D with great graphics?

[ohms]

Why would you make the worms and such 3D, if the game is going to be in 2D? Wouldn't it be much better to make it 2D with great graphics?

A new 2D worms game would be great, but with hi-def graphics, with animated parts (moving windmills, swaying trees, etc.), maybe some that can effect the game too. Also some sorely missed features from worms 1 need to come back, like different terrain types, so snow is more slippery, alien worlds have low gravity (I really missed those). Also, larger maps, with zoom in and out function, I miss all those cluster/grenade lobbing finales.

[kikumbob]

Basically, people want W:OW, with the W:A features. You mean they want W:A for the PSP? Its all saying the same thing really.

[Vader]

Why would you make the worms and such 3D, if the game is going to be in 2D? Wouldn't it be much better to make it 2D with great graphics?

You're an idiot.

He's saying make a 2D game but with 3D graphics.

Like Donkey Kong Country, for example.

It's really not difficult to understand. He thinks having better graphics on the same engine (with a few more weapons) will make a superior game to WA.

You clearly think whatever Andrew thinks, ad infinitum.

[AndrewTaylor]

You're an idiot.

He's saying make a 2D game but with 3D graphics.

Like Donkey Kong Country, for example.

Is he? DKC had 2D sprites generated from 3D models. I think he's asking for actual 3D graphics -- he mentioned Smash Brothers which uses fullly-3D characters and environments with 2D gameplay therein.

Which I think would be really bad for Worms. Having DKC-style CG graphics would work, I suppose, but I don't really see the point. It's just a look.

W:OW had 2D graphics aside from the worms themselves, which were generated from a model (I think just because that's how the PSP likes to operate) but shaded as if they weren't, which is a pretty good comprimise, I think.

[Vader]

The difference is only in animating method, surely, and doesn't actually affect the look of the game?

SSB could be done with 3D rendered sprites and it wouldn't affect the gameplay, would it?

I'm not sure I understand the difference (other than from a technical point of view).

[Alien King]

SSB could be done with 3D rendered sprites and it wouldn't affect the gameplay, would it?

Not really. Well, it wouldn't really affect gameplay, but it would be harder to make.

The only affect I can immediatly think of in SSB, was when the camera angle turned slightly, therefore the sprites turn with it and it would start to look strange. I havn't explained it well...

[Vader]

it wouldn't really affect gameplay, but it would be harder to make.

I agree entirely.

So, it stands to reason that a 2D Worms game could be made with 3D pre-rendered sprites and it would play the same as if it was made with 3D Worm models being rendered on-the-fly.

What he's asking for has been asked for since time began. Well, I remember suggesting it about 5 years ago. ;)

[Alien King]

So, it stands to reason that a 2D Worms game could be made with 3D pre-rendered sprites and it would play the same as if it was made with 3D Worm models being rendered on-the-fly.

Erm... I'm not entirely sure about that... but I can't think of anything at the moment.

[IcePacks]

Cell shaded graphics might be awesome too. I mean, the particle effects in Worms 4 looked nice.

And it must have something to do with BBQ.

[AndrewTaylor]

The difference is only in animating method, surely, and doesn't actually affect the look of the game?

SSB could be done with 3D rendered sprites and it wouldn't affect the gameplay, would it?

I'm not sure I understand the difference (other than from a technical point of view).

For Smash Brothers, there isn't really a difference.

For Worms, there is. A 3D landscape would have to deform -- and that means either all the landscapes have to be long, thin things, which would limit what they can look like, or they'd be large 3D worlds with a narrow strip you played on. As that deformed you'd dig a rather stupid looking trench and it'd be hard to see or visualise. There are comprimises and edits you could make to make it playable, but even then the deformation resolution would be rubbish. Also it would make generating random ones much harder and poorer, as you'd probably have to do W3D style chunks that you stuck together.

And it would be a lot more work, and result in nothing but the game being slightly worse.

Just changing the worm models wouldn't cause any of these problems -- hence W:OW -- but not would it really make any difference. It'd hardly be a 2D/3D game, then. It'd be a 2D/2D game that needed a faster PC.

[Vader]

The closest you could get is a 2D game with 3D sprites. Basically, WA but with 3D visuals, like DKC but you can't see the floor, just the ground (like in WA).

You could easily make explosion particles work on a Z-axis. I mean, particles fall between the terrain and the player anyway, so why not accentuate it a little?

It would have little benefit other than visuals but it would be entirely possible.

[AndrewTaylor]

I quite agree.

I fear, though, that you might be rather overestimating the bad-idea-churn that is this forum. I've seen all too many people advocate 2D gameplay on a 3D terrain in increasingly complex and silly ways and I've become somehow more cynical than I used to be as a result. Just because something is unworkable won't stop it being suggested every few weeks.

That said, his post leaves it utterly ambiguous what he wants, and I'm simply not going to get into that again.

[Pieboy337]

personnally I think WA should be left alone. It was a good classic worms game and seems to be known as the best one there was. We really shouldnt try to push more out of it because I know that it would personally partly ruin the game for me if a bunch of horrible remakes are made. I would just pefer perhaps just a new 2d worms games, basicly worms open warefare for the pc (the psp version, please not the ds one)

[Maunem2]

personnally I think WA should be left alone. It was a good classic worms game and seems to be known as the best one there was. We really shouldnt try to push more out of it because I know that it would personally partly ruin the game for me if a bunch of horrible remakes are made. I would just pefer perhaps just a new 2d worms games, basicly worms open warefare for the pc (the psp version, please not the ds one)

"More isn't better"
I agree with Pieboy... So, we need in the new original game, more interesting & funny, than W:A.
...I'm interested in how Team17 will do it. :)

[Alien King]

For Smash Brothers, there isn't really a difference.

Until the Camera angle changes slightly. Then it all falls apart and looks bad.

[AndrewTaylor]

Yes. You'd end up with Doom-style spinning corpses, unless you had just millions of sprites. The point was that you could do character models any way you wanted and it wouldn't affect gameplay, but the moment you tinker with the landscape you open up a whole can of wor--

You mess things up.

[MtlAngelus]

I like the idea of a graphically improved 2d worms game. With better physics, better AI, Stunning HD graphics, more animations, more/lots new/insane weapons, I'm quite sure it would become quite a hit. But for some reason, awesome things never happen. Like a proper sequel or remake of Chrono Trigger D:
Anyhow, I wonder how much improved would a 3d worms game be on a next gen console, would they cope better with the 3d terrain deformation?

[Metal Alex]

"New Super Mario Bros"

for those who don't know, I'll explain: That game has the stages in 2D, but all the "sprites" are 3D. This makes the animations very smooth, and easier to make "new sprites"...

This also means: worms can look at others directly, you could dress them without extra sprites needed, and the rotating sprites, would be just a 3D model spinning. It's just a 2D place, with worms on it, with the same camre as WA, so the terrain looks allways the same, and the worms too. No perspective difference, but lots of solutions to a lot of things.

[Vader]

"New Super Mario Bros"

for those who don't know, I'll explain: That game has the stages in 2D, but all the "sprites" are 3D. This makes the animations very smooth, and easier to make "new sprites"...

This also means: worms can look at others directly, you could dress them without extra sprites needed, and the rotating sprites, would be just a 3D model spinning. It's just a 2D place, with worms on it, with the same camre as WA, so the terrain looks allways the same, and the worms too. No perspective difference, but lots of solutions to a lot of things.

That's basically what I was saying.

I think it could be nice visually but the gameplay in WA is fundamentally flawless.

[MtlAngelus]

Or they could use the same anims from W:A and maybe make more... I really like that style, seriously. More than the 3d worms style they use.

[AndrewTaylor]

I quite like the design of worm they're using now -- aside from anything else it's far more consistent. But for a 2D game I'd like the "sprite" look. I think W:OW did it pretty well on PSP -- they worms looked like sprites, fir with the W4 style design, and still were as fluid and flexible as a 3D model.

[Pieboy337]

What I think would be cool is to have basicly worms 4 in 2d. What I mean by this is that it has the same weapons and stuff, but as what has been discussed, 3d sprites and stuff. So its like the classic worms games, but yet new... I have no idea were I am going with this anymore

[Metal Alex]

That's basically what I was saying.

I think it could be nice visually but the gameplay in WA is fundamentally flawless.

Exactly, it should be 3D, with the 2D maps, the way we know now... or maybe, anti-aliased between destructions, since it would make grenade bounces realistic and that...

[AndrewTaylor]

Exactly, it should be 3D, with the 2D maps, the way we know now... or maybe, anti-aliased between destructions, since it would make grenade bounces realistic and that...

You can never get utterly realistic grenade bounces on a pixel-based map, because you need to work out what angle the edge of the terrain is supposed to be at when really it's always zero or ninety degrees.

If 100% realistic grenades are your bag, what you want is a 2D polygonal map that can be deformed on-the-fly. It's an exponentially less CPU-intensive operation than its 3D counterpart, and so is quite feasible, in principle, and bouncing grenades would be flawless. Of course, the weapons wouldn't take circular chunks but (say) dodecagonal chunks, but stick enough sides on and nobody would know. It'd also allow for graphically perfect zooming and such.

There'd have to be a threshold for the size of floating chunk, though -- the infamous Single Floating Pixel that gets in your way could, under this system, be smaller than one pixel. So you'd have to just delete those.

It'd be a lot harder to implement than pixel-based terrains, but once it was done you'd get a lot of collision and bouncing stuff almost for free. Designing level editors would be harder too.

[Metal Alex]

I think deadcode said somethig about that anti-aliasing on WA, but I'll be happy if I just throw a grenade straight up in a ladder, and it bounces to the side, like grenades do. I mean, not 100% realism, but much easier, and zooming could be solved this way, too.

[Anubis]

New Worms 2D with better graphics etc. Has been said, will never be done because in their opinion it has to be 3D. -.-