Mayham review

[tehceech]

Worms 4 Mayham
Reviewer: Me
Genre: Hat simulator

As I see it the '4' is some kind of indication of progression, as in the sequel to the Worms3d tech, it couldn't be Worms 4D because that would involve time travel and seeing as Team17 haven't even mastered collision detection I think we should keep them well away from our grandfathers.
The 'OLLOLG MAYAM!" stands for extra zany wackiness the likes of which you have never seen, i.e hats.

I have a confession to make, I have actually played Worms3D but only to see if it was as bad as everyone said it was and so I could get all the in-jokes.
I played it again recently on my new pc just to check that it wasn't actually my crappy old computer that made it look bad.
I was right, it was Team17 who made it look that bad.

So anyway while looking around at random stuff today I discovered that the recommended machine spec for Worms4 was a 2gig CPU. After I stopped laughing, about 15 minutes, I became intrigued.
What on earth could have been done to need a more powerful computer to play worms than Half-Life 2 and Quake4? I did some quick home work.

- New animation system, including more animation bones/frames and higher poly worm models
- New lip-sync tech (slicker, accurate)
- New particles tech (better, more complex)

And i do admit the models and the animations are an improvement over Worms3D, don't get carried away though because that's like saying a kick in the balls is an improvement over having a fork jammed into your eyes and then being kicked in the balls and being made to eat your own eyes.

I couldn't really see anywhere where such high system specs were warranted, all I can assume is that there must be some seriously hardcore hat physics going down somewhere.
It's nice to see that Team17 finally listened to something and implemented it, being able to customise the controls, but I'm beginning to wish I'd flamed those people who fantasised about being able to make them wear hats a little more.
Stupidest. Gimmick. Ever.

I'm dissapointed there is no map generator or editor, apparently there is one but it's way too complicated for idiots like us to comprehend. And by 'us' I mean 'you'.
If I'm smart enough not to buy Phoenix then I think I can handle a map editor.

On a scale of one to ten where one is you and ten is me: this game is Erod, predictable and not funny. If we ignore it it will probably eventually go away and hopefully take it's friends with it.

[guyy]

This isn't a review...it's an angry flaming, most of which doesn't make any sense, and some of which is M-rated.

I might as well debunk the only thing you said that appears to make sense: unlike you, I looked up the requirements for those games you mentioned...Half-Life 2's "recommended" processor is a 2.4, and Quake 4 has 2.0 as the absolute minimum. Besides, both are much more heavy on graphics cards.

So, you bought a game because people said it was bad, then you bought the sequel because you incorrectly thought it had massively better graphics, and now you're ranting about it here...please just sell them on Ebay if you don't want them and stop complaining.

[AndrewTaylor]

What on earth could have been done to need a more powerful computer to play worms than Half-Life 2 and Quake4? I did some quick home work.

And i do admit the models and the animations are an improvement over Worms3D

Well, maybe it's because Quake 4 is a much, much simpler game than Worms 4. There's no camera to worry about, the terrains can't be deformed, the environments are almost all very closed in and comprised mostly of a few large polygons for floors and walls, the AI has far, far fewer weapons and only one target and usually only one way to get there, there's no ninja rope and your weapons go in a straight line across the much simpler terrain rather than bouncing along a freely deformed landscape physicsly.

And just maybe it's because id are a larger company who have spend a bit more than the last decade doing nothing but develop the Quake engine.

Nice homework. You read a box.

[Alien King]

So anyway while looking around at random stuff today I discovered that the recommended machine spec for Worms4 was a 2gig CPU. After I stopped laughing, about 15 minutes, I became intrigued.
What on earth could have been done to need a more powerful computer to play worms than Half-Life 2 and Quake4?

You compared the Recommended for W4 against the Minimum for Quake 4?


Minimum for W4:

Win 98SE/ME/2K/XP
Direct X 9.0c
Pentium III or Athlon 1GHz
256MB RAM
1x Speed DVD-ROM drive


Minimum for Q4

Win 2000/XP
Direct X 9.0c
Pentium 4.20GHz or AMD Athlon XP 2000+
512MB RAM
4x Speed DVD-ROM Drive

That's the minimum for Q4. The recommended for W4 just about draws level with it.

Yes, the thing about putting clothes on your worm is a gimmick. Yes, there is no level editor.

Now, perhaps you could try to review the game.

[Snoozy]

Tehceech, guess what? You suck.

First, your 'review' reads like you don't like the Worms series in general. Where's the point in 'reviewing' a game if you know you won't like it's humour and it's gameplay?

Second, the first thing your 'review' cares about is the games name ('Mayham' :rolleyes: ), but whats wrong with MayhEm? Its not the first worms game to have such a name, the most popular worms game is called 'Armageddon', and theres nothing wrong with that. And the second thing you 'review' is the graphics (If you want Worms to look as good as Quake or FEAR, youre just a stupid graphic maniac... go to hell), and thats it. You judge a game by it's name and it's graphics.

Oh wait, you also complain about a map editor everyone else is too 'stupid' to comprehend, but YOU, youre just too smart and half-godly for trying, eh? (Oh, and are you ABSOLUTELY sure there actually IS an editor?)

[yakuza]

Why are you giving him any sort of attention? He is obviously trolling and succeeding at it.

[Alien King]

I think I can handle a map editor.

Sounds like you actually don't know what mapping for most games entails.

[Maunem2]

For game of level W4:M in my opinion there is no only an editor of missions, as in W:WP (about it I only heard - I didn't play in this game. Unfortunately.:()...

[MrMister]

Make more 2D games, pl0x. You might not be able to make as much money(I don't see how), but Worms 4 will suck my balls.

[tehceech]

Well, maybe it's because Quake 4 is a much, much simpler game than Worms 4. There's no camera to worry about, the terrains can't be deformed, the environments are almost all very closed in and comprised mostly of a few large polygons for floors and walls, the AI has far, far fewer weapons and only one target and usually only one way to get there, there's no ninja rope and your weapons go in a straight line across the much simpler terrain rather than bouncing along a freely deformed landscape physicsly.

And just maybe it's because id are a larger company who have spend a bit more than the last decade doing nothing but develop the Quake engine.

Nice homework. You read a box.

Your points are all valid but quaek 4 has a rale gun which is like a whole other game in itself and I didn't read that part on a box.
I asked my good friend john romero, the gay one who got fired from id, his opinion and he said

If it isn't on a mobile phone I don't want to know about it


That sure answered all my questions and I had, quite literally, some.

[spyrul]

i was under the bizarre understanding that if you put a 4 on the title of your game, that makes it the fourth installment of the series. this is kind of the same situation with w3d but we let that slide because the 3 was followed with a subsequent d, which implies how many virtual dimensions are in the game instead of which game number it is.

there was worms and then worms 2, worms armageddon, wwep, worms blast, worms pinball, worms 3d and worms 4 as far as i can remember, so i guess the first four were just practice.

i agree with tehceech

[Alien King]

i was under the bizarre understanding that if you put a 4 on the title of your game, that makes it the fourth installment of the series. this is kind of the same situation with w3d but we let that slide because the 3 was followed with a subsequent d, which implies how many virtual dimensions are in the game instead of which game number it is.

there was worms and then worms 2, worms armageddon, wwep, worms blast, worms pinball, worms 3d and worms 4 as far as i can remember, so i guess the first four were just practice.

i agree with tehceech

1. Worms and all it's spinoffs

2. Worms 2, with W:A and WWP

3. Worms 3D and the spinoff WFUS

4. Worms 4 Mayhem

[Spectre137]

... and some of which is M-rated.

parental control ratings for forum posts, what has the inter-net come to?

I might as well debunk the only thing you said that appears to make sense: unlike you, I looked up the requirements for those games you mentioned...Half-Life 2's "recommended" processor is a 2.4, and Quake 4 has 2.0 as the absolute minimum. Besides, both are much more heavy on graphics cards.

what tehceech is trying to say is that it's completely ridiculous for a game that looks as primitive as worms mayhem to be even in the same ballpark as half-life 2 and quake 4 when it comes to processor requirements.

So, you bought a game because people said it was bad, then you bought the sequel because you incorrectly thought it had massively better graphics, and now you're ranting about it here...please just sell them on Ebay if you don't want them and stop complaining.

i don't think he bought either of them. he hasn't lost his mind, you know ... even though he’s dared to criticize (!!!) team17 in a humorous and ironic manner, which is of course outrageous!

Well, maybe it's because Quake 4 is a much, much simpler game than Worms 4.

okay, now you're just asking for it. as an expert graphics programmer who has more authority in the area than any team17 deveoper, let me debunk some popular myths about game performance.

There's no camera to worry about

please. you could “calculate” the camera 1000 times and chances are you wouldn’t notice a thing.

the terrains can't be deformed

terrain deformation is not a constant strain on the processor as it is only calculated on weapon impact. i’m not sure if worms isn’t using a cheap trick to deform the map (as a geometrically accurate boolean operation on 3d volumes wouldn't be trivial to implement for a company with such limited experience in graphics) but it can’t be very time consuming in the first place given the low polygon count of the objects. well, if you write the algorithm correctly.

your argument is further raped if you consider that red faction was the first game to feature terrain deformation. the system requirements were:

System: PII 400 or equivalent
RAM:64 MB RAM
Video Memory: 8 MB VRAM

mind you, red faction looked better than worms 3d. uh oh!
the environments are almost all very closed in and comprised mostly of a few large polygons for floors and walls

in quake 4 most of the CPU performance is consumed by silhouette and shadow volume cap calculation and for all operations that exclude and optimize shadow volumes to minimize pixel fill count, the largest bottleneck of stencil shadow volumes. but i can guarantee you that an average quake 4 screen is no less complex than a worms 4 one. since cheech has mentioned half life 2, take a look at this screenshot and tell me with a straight face that the objects within this single screenshot don't have at least 30 times the complexity of an entire worms 4 map. Yes, an entire map.

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/images/2/2a/Lostcoast_bay.jpg

Keep in mind that this is just one view, and remember how long you can walk thorugh a hl2 level before reaching the end. I'm comparing a *single* hl2 view to an entire worms 4 map.

Nobody wants worms to look like quake or half-life, don't be so naive. But let me put it this way: If any other game developer had made Worms 3d, the maps would’ve looked more like this:

http://feeds1.wazap.de/products/images/7423/14871/worms_world_party,1.jpg

And less like the laughably jagged 100-polygon showcases of compromise.

the AI has far, far fewer weapons and only one target and usually only one way to get there, there's no ninja rope and your weapons go in a straight line across the much simpler terrain rather than bouncing along a freely deformed landscape physicsly.

there's no doubt in my mind that the worms 4 AI has more to do than that of quake 4, but answer this question: does your computer come to a grinding halt whenever the CPU takes a turn? no? that’s because it doesn’t stress the CPU as much as they would want you to believe. besides, consider the intelligent AI of half-life 2 enemies and NPCs and then tell me if worms 4 isn't laughable by comparison.

And just maybe it's because id are a larger company who have spend a bit more than the last decade doing nothing but develop the Quake engine.

let's ignore for a minute that id didn't develop quake 4. the programmers at id are some of the most talented in the business but there isn’t a whole lot of them. i'd be surprised if team17 had less than 3/4 of id’s programmers but i'd also be surprised if they had 1/10 of the talent.

it's quite simple. if you write a 3d engine not knowing what you're doing, if you're the kind of guy who visits the gamasutra forums to ask questions about 3d programming then you can’t possibly build a game system that is efficient, flexible and reliable. you're going to end up spending too much CPU time in the wrong places of your algorithm, you're going to draw more than what is needed to the screen, thus severely reducing the amount of detail the artists can put on the objects. which is exactly what has happened.

the reason why the 3d worms games look so bad is because whoever developed the 3d engine was (and still is) obviously inexperienced, which is the reason why they're spending so much money on an unreal 3 engine license. they know they don't have the knowledge to build a good engine from scratch. if they were capable of developing a proper engine they wouldn't need to license anything from epic.

that's why cheech and i are so willing to poke fun at them. we're not asking them to admit their in-house tech is worthless, obviously that will never happen, but we want them to get off of their high horse and admit they've made many mistakes in the past. like humans do. worms 3 wasn’t a qualitative success, neither was worms 4 nor stunt gp nor phoenix. if any of these games sold well it would speak volumes about the current state of gaming culture. as far as these games' creative merits (or entertainment values) are concerned, nobody is buying team17’s propaganda except for the sycophants at the team17 forums who will take just about any statement from a team17 member at face value.

Sounds like you actually don't know what mapping for most games entails.

thanks for the analysis, carmack. learn:

i haven't played worms 3d in years, but when you shoot a hole in the ground and the terrain is deformed i'm pretty sure the algorithm maps a pattern (some texture coordinates) onto the newly created geometry within the hole. assuming the mathematical procedure behind this calculation isn't completely clumsy and malformed, it could be used to map textures onto an arbitrary geometrical shape. once you finish doing so for the entire map you could find out which polygons are facing upwards (by looking at the surface normals), group adjacent polygons that satisfy the criteria and map a grass texture onto those areas. you wouldn’t need to map UVs by hand any more than you need to hand-paint the color on a random map in worms 2.

besides, it would be fairly simple to generate a more convincing landscape pattern via a procedural 3d texture fragment shader that should be compatible with most low-class GPUs.

but who am I to talk? i've only developed graphics for half of my life on projects that range from semantic network visualization to mathematically accurate 3d soft shadow projection. i only work at an university in the department of geometry for christ’s sake.

you know what? the only reason i haven't offered to help team17 out of their crisis is because it would be career suicide.

[tehceech]

facts

But did you take the massive strain of hats into account?
I'm not questioning you, as a gamer-pit student you are obviously more qualified than I, but I've worn a hat before and let me tell you it wasn't as easy as those people in the ghetto make it look.

[Vader]

Worms 4:Mayhem is Worms 3D with hats. It also has some new weapons, mostly hat-based.

It probably requires a colossal amount of processing power because it's traditional for Worms games to hammer your CPU unnecessarily. Why break the habit of a lifetime?

To be fair though, if you don't like the game and don't want to play it, why would you be so angry about it?

Is it just that you would rather have seen a worthwhile 3D Worms game? If so, you are already part of a large crowd of the community.

[Spectre137]

Is it just that you would rather have seen a worthwhile 3D Worms game? If so, you are already part of a large crowd of the community.

every new worms game reinforces our worries of many years ago that WA (or WWP for some people) would be the last good worms game to ever be released.

it's even worse when you discover such a large group of people who will vehemently deny it as if team17 were their mothers. guys who tell you that worms 4 looks so awful because it has teh 3d roep! i'm not even sure anymore whose intelligence is being insulted by a statement like that.

it's like protesting against the bush organization because they're torturing innocent people in cuba only to be told that it's okay, really! you're just an angry flamer.

but folks, once you run out of reasonable arguments the only weapon you have is comedy. i don't remember who it was who once said that "you can't beat an ignorant person in an argument" but he was right.

[Snoozy]

I have this feeling that spectre, tehceech and MrMister are all the same stupid moron.

[Vader]

WA was the last good Worms game. The people who deny it are foolish.

Protesting against something which actually affects you is different to complaining that WA was the last good Worms game. Nobody is forcing you to play 3D Worms games and my advice is that you continue to play WA and support its (somewhat slow) development. Unless you prefer WWP in which case you're foolish.

I have this feeling that spectre, tehceech and MrMister are all the same stupid moron.
Get lost. I know all these people. They have a valid arguement but it's providing no purpose other than to get it of their chests.

[tehceech]

I have this feeling that spectre, tehceech and MrMister are all the same stupid moron.

I have a feeling that you're the kind of person who thinks hats are a sound move for future development

[Alien King]

thanks for the analysis, carmack. learn:

i haven't played worms 3d in years, but when you shoot a hole in the ground and the terrain is deformed i'm pretty sure the algorithm maps a pattern (some texture coordinates) onto the newly created geometry within the hole. assuming the mathematical procedure behind this calculation isn't completely clumsy and malformed, it could be used to map textures onto an arbitrary geometrical shape. once you finish doing so for the entire map you could find out which polygons are facing upwards (by looking at the surface normals), group adjacent polygons that satisfy the criteria and map a grass texture onto those areas. you wouldn’t need to map UVs by hand any more than you need to hand-paint the color on a random map in worms 2.

besides, it would be fairly simple to generate a more convincing landscape pattern via a procedural 3d texture fragment shader that should be compatible with most low-class GPUs.

but who am I to talk? i've only developed graphics for half of my life on projects that range from semantic network visualization to mathematically accurate 3d soft shadow projection. i only work at an university in the department of geometry for christ’s sake.

you know what? the only reason i haven't offered to help team17 out of their crisis is because it would be career suicide.

Obviously I was wrong.


This is quite an unusual thread.

[Spectre137]

WA was the last good Worms game. The people who deny it are foolish.

Protesting against something which actually affects you is different to complaining that WA was the last good Worms game. Nobody is forcing you to play 3D Worms games and my advice is that you continue to play WA and support its (somewhat slow) development. Unless you prefer WWP in which case you're foolish.

every time i play WA i think about what could've been done with it if they had kept building on the basic premise for another 1 or 2 games. why haven't the game mechanics changed at all since worms 2? why, for example, must we still ask other players to ABL or KTL or CBA or whatever instead of being given the option in the game settings? we've been playing like that since worms 2, it's not like team17 has missed a trend that quickly sprung up out of nowhere.

and these are very simple examples that shouldn't be worth more than several lines of code. imagine what wormnet would be like if team17 had opened up an extension of the WA code to mod developers.

but there's the real problem: if you want to allow third-parties to write mods your game environment must have an organized and flexible software architecture, which it probably doesn't have. this brings us back to the real problem of second-rate software development.

i'm angry because the concept of "worms" deserved much better than that. worms 2 should've merely estabished a game dynamic that should've become more complex and diverse with each iteration. yes, there is no market for 2d games anymore, but a mod community would've gladly taken care of that and made the game more popular than team17 could've imagined.

they themselves could've moved on to worms 3d and nobody would've given a damn because they would be too satisfied playing WA.

oh, i think i see the big picture now :rolleyes:

[Vader]

Well there is discussion at the moment of a handful of community members being granted access to source code. Deadcode already has it and has implemented a lot of new features and bug fixes in his updates. Unfortunately he has been on somewhat of an extended vacation but I hear tell of him returning soon.

I think you're right about WA having an inflexible architecture in some ways, but people have also released extensions for WA, such as Fiddler and WormKit. This along with the updates is enough for me to see this as an ongoing project. I'm happy to be patient with it as I can play other things too.

People generally are happy with WA. I know people are eager for a new update, but that's partly down to the excitement of seeing new features. I guess you'd have to ask Deadcode about that, though.

[tehceech]

Obviously I was wrong.


This is quite an unusual thread.


I maed this for you. it is hats

[lemonberry]

1. Worms and all it's spinoffs

2. Worms 2, with W:A and WWP

3. Worms 3D and the spinoff WFUS

4. Worms 4 Mayhem

then shouldn't worms 2 be called "worms again"? or W:A and WWP should be called "Worms 2 Armageddon" and "Worms 2 World Party"

your logic is flawed

[Vader]

You floored his logic with a donkey punch.

WWP should have been called "Worms:Armageddon 2 - World Party" like the world had been saved from Armageddon by the heroic player in WA. That would have made more sense.

[tehceech]

then shouldn't worms 2 be called "worms again"? or W:A and WWP should be called "Worms 2 Armageddon" and "Worms 2 World Party"

your logic is flawed

Armageddon is/was an expansion for Worms 2 so yes it should be Worms 2:Armageddon

[Vader]

Armageddon is/was an expansion for Worms 2 so yes it should be Worms 2:Armageddon

Good point. And WWP Should have been "Worms 2: Armageddon After-Party"

[guyy]

I have this feeling that spectre, tehceech and MrMister are all the same stupid moron.

Dunno about MrMister, but the other two are obviously the same guy...just look at their avatars.

As a final (hopefully) note to him and himself - Thinking W:A rules and W4 stinks doesn't make you a moron. But ranting about it does. Enough already.

Someone needs to lock this thread, or at least put it in the W:A forum where it belongs...

[bine]

If you want to talk minimum specs you've missed the fact that Mayhem runs on the PS2, which is roughly a 300mhz processor and 32meg of ram. And I'm fairly sure half-life 2 won't run on that very well.

but who am I to talk? i've only developed graphics for half of my life on projects that range from semantic network visualization to mathematically accurate 3d soft shadow projection. i only work at an university in the department of geometry for christ’s sake.

Wow those sound like fun to play. When you get them running on the PS2, and actually make a game and not a tech demo, let us know.

[Spectre137]

Dunno about MrMister, but the other two are obviously the same guy...just look at their avatars.

you've learned nothing from this thread, have you?

As a final (hopefully) note to him and himself - Thinking W:A rules and W4 stinks doesn't make you a moron. But ranting about it does. Enough already.

Someone needs to lock this thread, or at least put it in the W:A forum where it belongs...

yes, lock this thread before someone gets the idea that team17 isn't beyond criticism. you're such a tool it's unbelievable.

If you want to talk minimum specs you've missed the fact that Mayhem runs on the PS2, which is roughly a 300mhz processor and 32meg of ram. And I'm fairly sure half-life 2 won't run on that very well.

what's your obsession with the playstation 2? obviously if the system requirements for the PC version were 300mhz and 32mb ram you would've put it on the box. in fact, if you still believe in your statement, i'd like to see you try playing worms 4 on a 300mhz / 32mb ram PC.

Wow those sound like fun to play. When you get them running on the PS2, and actually make a game and not a tech demo, let us know.

the shadow projection is part of an architectual analysis software that i will not further discuss because it's our intellectual property. neither was it ever supposed to be a game nor is it a "tech demo" as you so cleverly put it.

but what kind of argument was that anyway? imagine what the team17 job interview must be like.

"so, i've worked in the kernel team at microsoft, i've developed the fluid tech for alias wavefront, i've written the image processor that assembles raw hubble telescope data into images."
"WOW, THOSE SOUND LIKE FUN TO PLAY! GTFO!"

i mean, like a kid on a playground.
besides, worms 4 wasn't fun to play either. ziiing.

i'm not sure what world you live in but where i come from game development isn't exactly the most difficult branch of software engineering. you obviously consider playstation 2 ports as some of the most significant accomplishments of your career and i think that statement speaks for itself. no wonder worms 4 turned out wrong.

it's funny you should resort to the old "don't like our work? you do it better!" argument. sure, i could single handedly give you a worms game you could never have imagined if you gave me ...

* the budget for worms 3d
* the graphics artists
* spaedg

but even then i wouldn't take the job because it would be career suicide. i wouldn't want to show up anywhere else with "team17 programmer" on my resume.

[bine]

but what kind of argument was that anyway? imagine what the team17 job interview must be like.

"so, i've worked in the kernel team at microsoft, i've developed the fluid tech for alias wavefront, i've written the image processor that assembles raw hubble telescope data into images."
"WOW, THOSE SOUND LIKE FUN TO PLAY! GTFO!"

How did you know?



I'm not claiming Worms 4 is perfect, and there a probably a great many things that we would have done differently with the benefit of hindsight. I also don't think we are beyond critism. All I can suggest is that maybe you don't understand the harsh realities that exist in game development sometimes. What I don't get is why you are so intent in going beyond criticism to being just plain insulting?

[parsley]

i wouldn't want to show up anywhere else with "team17 programmer" on my resume.

I agreewholeheartedly - I certainly wouldn't want you to either!

[tehceech]

I agreewholeheartedly - I certainly wouldn't want you to either!
Did you get a big high five for that zinger? Bring out the spaedg unless he's too busy at the "hit games including Miami Vice & Prison Tycoon" conference.

I find that you can negate some of the challenges of worms 4 by simply walking through the nearest wall.
HI:5 DURDER!

[Spectre137]

How did you know?



I'm not claiming Worms 4 is perfect, and there a probably a great many things that we would have done differently with the benefit of hindsight. I also don't think we are beyond critism. All I can suggest is that maybe you don't understand the harsh realities that exist in game development sometimes. What I don't get is why you are so intent in going beyond criticism to being just plain insulting?

pardon me for quoting a fictional character, but there was a man in a very good movie who once said "if you want people to listen you have to hit them with a sledgehammer".

but nah, i think the other guys at the team17 forum were delivering insults way before i was. i'm using traditional retaliation tactics. my insults, insofar as they were insults, aren't more than exaggerations of ugly truths or "harsh realities", as you put it. just because we don't work in a fairy tale work environment where everyone is a bloody genius it doesn't mean we can't (or shouldn't) talk about it.

I agreewholeheartedly - I certainly wouldn't want you to either!

i take that as a compliment but i'm not too sure. you wouldn't want me to show up anywhere else because you'd rather have me in your team17 programming staff? or would you not want me to have another job after quitting team17? i'm confused. but thanks.

Did you get a big high five for that zinger? Bring out the spaedg unless he's too busy at the "hit games including Miami Vice & Prison Tycoon" conference.

I find that you can negate some of the challenges of worms 4 by simply walking through the nearest wall.
HI:5 DURDER!

i can't stop laughing.
see, one of the reasons why spaedg and team17 are the butts of so many jokes is because it's simple and it never fails to make you smile.

[Maunem2]

About graphic registration of game...
I think, you should understand, that game Worms was from the very beginning made out as an animated cartoon and consequently you from the very beginning should not hope for a picture as in Half Life 2. + the picture in game directly depends on capacity of a computer - the more productive processor and more RAM, better grafics card is cooler!...
And greater system requirements, unfortunately, feature of all modern games... :(
So, also give without roughnesses, and that will deal with moderators! =@

[Plasma]

Uhh... I don't want to get involved in any of these arguments, but Spectre, you do know how to cast a manual override which completely removes all worm hats and accessories from the game, right?

[Spectre137]

About graphic registration of game...
I think, you should understand, that game Worms was from the very beginning made out as an animated cartoon and consequently you from the very beginning should not hope for a picture as in Half Life 2. + the picture in game directly depends on capacity of a computer - the more productive processor and more RAM, better grafics card is cooler!...
And greater system requirements, unfortunately, feature of all modern games... :(
So, also give without roughnesses, and that will deal with moderators! =@

that's what i said earlier. cartoonish graphics don't mean they can't be detailed.

http://feeds1.wazap.de/products/images/7423/14871/worms_world_party,1.jpg

the level of detail in this cartoonish 2D WWP map is far greater than that in a worms 3d map.

http://www.terragame.com/screens/worms-3d.jpg

again, cartoonish graphics don't have to be jagged. they can be just as detailed as anything from half life 2. it's just the graphical style that is different.

Uhh... I don't want to get involved in any of these arguments, but Spectre, you do know how to cast a manual override which completely removes all worm hats and accessories from the game, right?

now now, removing hats from worms 4 would be highly offensive to team17 developers. over 10 million dollars were invested in scientific research of hats. team17 designers travelled across the globe to study the influence of hats in foreign cultures. during the making of worms 4 they have made several hat-related discoveries that will shape hatdom for decades to come. team17's advancements in hatology have been so significant, team17 didn't pay for the unreal 3 engine but instead let epic use their proprietary hat engine for gears of war. team17 has done more for your hat and for your friends' hats than you realize. think about it the next time you want to remove hats from worms 4.

[Snoozy]

Just one little question: Whats wrong with the hats? Do you think Worms Mayhem would be a better game without the ability to customize your worms?

[devianti]

Uhh... I don't want to get involved in any of these arguments, but Spectre, you do know how to cast a manual override which completely removes all worm hats and accessories from the game, right?

If you remove the hats there isn't much left.
Sometimes it's like shooting fish in a barrel :D


Just one little question: Whats wrong with the hats? Do you think Worms Mayhem would be a better game without the ability to customize your worms?

Do you think it's a better game with hats?
I think it might be a better game if the last 4 or 5 games weren't such blatantly watered down console fodder.

[PYROworm]

Just one little question: Whats wrong with the hats? Do you think Worms Mayhem would be a better game without the ability to customize your worms?

It could have easily been better spent elsewhere, to say the least.

Personally I do think Worms has a numeric of problems. They do not necissarily prevent me from enjoying the game, but as someone who is currently partaking in the study of psychology and game design, I'd certianly like to think they could have improved many aspects of how a game is played.

... Although, personally, I think it'd make rather long of a post to simply write everything down, so I'll just say this: The pace, the level of visual impact and control mechanics could have been changed for the better significantly...

-MDH

P.S. I'm not sure how Team17 renders poxel grids; if they can be run on a 700MHz celeron with less than a 512KB of data mem to throw things around in, I'm almost sure a 900MHz celeron idling could as well. I really have no idea where the 2GHz requirement could have really come from...

[guyy]

you've learned nothing from this thread, have you?


Other than that you're a strange and opinionated person...not really, no.

[Spectre137]

Other than that you're a strange and opinionated person...not really, no.

"The intelligent man finds almost everything ridiculous, the sensible man hardly anything."
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[guyy]

Not ridiculous. Just weird.

Like how you responded after only 4 minutes.

Could be a coincidence. But still weird.


Good that you finally made a post that isn't a direct insult, at least.

[tehceech]

"The intelligent man finds almost everything ridiculous, the sensible man hardly anything."
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

That's a nice quote but on the Team17 forum this one is usually more relevant


He who cannot draw on three thousand years is living from hand to mouth.
--That Goethe again

In fact quite a lot of Goethe's musings fit in quite well over here.

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.
One never goes so far as when one doesn't know where one is going.


There is nothing more odious than the majority; for it consists of a few powerful leaders, a certain number of accommodating scoundrels and subservient weaklings, and a mass of men who trudge after them without in the least knowing their own minds.


We are so constituted that we believe the most incredible things; and once they are engraved upon the memory, woe to him who would endeavor to erase them.


No one would talk much in society if they knew how often they misunderstood others.


Belief is not the beginning but the end of all knowledge.

[lemonberry]

i'm on the edge of my seat for Worms 5 which will hopefully be a virtual reality simulator released after only two or three other worms games with a special tie and/or pant simulator

[Maunem2]

Worms - virtual reality?... It will be unusual... But not Worms style (let with all misses)...

[guyy]

That's a nice quote but on the Team17 forum this one is usually more relevant


In fact quite a lot of Goethe's musings fit in quite well over here.


You'd be amazed how well many of those quotes apply to you.

But can we stop the insult-war already? If you want to actually criticize the game, go ahead. So far, though, you've just been taunting everyone who disliked your original rant. Not much point there, unless your goal is to make people angry.

[Vader]

You'd be amazed how well many of those quotes apply to you.

But can we stop the insult-war already? If you want to actually criticize the game, go ahead. So far, though, you've just been taunting everyone who disliked your original rant. Not much point there, unless your goal is to make people angry.Can't you spot a troll when you see one? ;)

Your hat must be on too tight.

Maybe I'm stupid, but I can never help but look forward to the next Worms game. I've been disappointed by them for 7 years (with WA being the most superior Worms game to date) yet I can't wait for a new installment.

I guess that's where the "hand to mouth" quote applies.

Although I'm not sure how Spectre's quote works. Intellence doesn't imply a lack of sensibility. I'd be inclined to say quite the opposite.

[Alien King]

Can't you spot a troll when you see one? ;)

Do Not Feed The Troll!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/DoNotFeedTroll.svg/150px-DoNotFeedTroll.svg.png

[Spectre137]

Although I'm not sure how Spectre's quote works. Intellence doesn't imply a lack of sensibility. I'd be inclined to say quite the opposite.

hey, i didn't say it, goethe did :D. plus, the quote was taken out of context (liek teh poep). i guess what he originally meant to say was that those who are afraid to pull on other people's emotional strings (being sensible) would never comment on the ridiculousness of their accomplishments, thus finding nothing ridiculous at all unless it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. and that's not a very good basis for progress.

it was meant as a reply to the statement of me being "opinionated", as if that's a bad thing. i'd suck up to team17 as well if i wasn't opinionated, but as an intelligent person i can't deny the ridiculousness of the hat gimmick.

[Alien King]

it was meant as a reply to the statement of me being "opinionated", as if that's a bad thing. i'd suck up to team17 as well if i wasn't opinionated, but as an intelligent person i can't deny the ridiculousness of the hat gimmick.

You seem to be obsessed with the hats. Do you not have a big enough hat yourself?

[Plasma]

...but as an intelligent person i can't deny the ridiculousness of the hat gimmick.
I don't get it? If you can remove all hats, and considering how it wouldn't have taken Team17 much time to do, then why are you so annoyed by them?

[Alien King]

I don't get it? If you can remove all hats, and considering how it wouldn't have taken Team17 much time to do, then why are you so annoyed by them?

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=534096&postcount=49

[Plasma]

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=534096&postcount=49
Sorry, I just really wanted to see how he'd reply.

[Spectre137]

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=534096&postcount=49

am i a troll because i criticize? do you realize that i've said more insightful things in this thread than you did during your entire time on the team17 forum? why exactly do you want me to stop? why exactly do my opinions bother you and why would you rather want me praise team17 for their incredible contributions to hat gaming? i think that is the real question here. if you were so secure about yourself and about the company you so blindly worship you wouldn't consider me a threat to your way of thinking.

I don't get it? If you can remove all hats, and considering how it wouldn't have taken Team17 much time to do, then why are you so annoyed by them?

i am not annoyed, i am amused. i find them ridiculous, and thus i laugh.

[tehceech]

He who cannot draw on seven worms games is living hat to head more like.

I made a wit!
In future worms games I'd like to see more realism like fighting terrism and the terrible secret of space, maybe introduce new gameplay mechanics such as stairs and robot freedom fighters who think they are people.
How about some worms who crash on an island and all kinds of crazy unexplained shenanigans happen, possibly with a polar bear and a predictable plot line.
I'd like to see worms tackling real situations like how to cope when one parent kills the other and then the surviving parent has to go to prison.

That'd be hard and edgy

[guyy]

Can't you spot a troll when you see one? ;)

Your hat must be on too tight.


Of course...but I guess I shouldn't have hoped he didn't know he was one. In any case, he does now.


You're not a troll because you criticize...you're a troll because you insult everyone in sight for no reason. No matter how "insightful" you may be, no one will care, or even notice, if you act like a jerk.

Do Not Feed The Troll!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/DoNotFeedTroll.svg/150px-DoNotFeedTroll.svg.png

Don't worry, no more posts in here for me. Waste of time anyway...

[MadEwokHerd]

In terms of whether you are a troll, it doesn't matter how insightful or valid your points are.

See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Troll#Etymology_2

Someone who posts to a newsgroup, bulletin board, etc., in a way deliberately intended to anger other posters and draw arguments.

What matters is your intention. Did you intend to anger those other posters and draw arguments? If you did it's ok, you can tell me.

[tehceech]

In terms of whether you are a troll, it doesn't matter how insightful or valid your points are.

See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Troll#Etymology_2



What matters is your intention. Did you intend to anger those other posters and draw arguments? If you did it's ok, you can tell me.

Meh, you know us. What do you think? :cool:

[Spectre137]

No matter how "insightful" you may be, no one will care, or even notice, if you act like a jerk.

this is the most popular non-sticky thread in this forum that doesn't start with "POST YOUR ...".
i will let you draw your own conclusions.

What matters is your intention. Did you intend to anger those other posters and draw arguments? If you did it's ok, you can tell me.

riddle me this, sherlock.

anyone who was "angered" by cheech's first post needs to re-evaluate his priorities in life.

the first replies, which came from neither of us, were the first ones that, given their harsh accusing tone, could've "angered" people of special sensibilities. they were certainly meant to "draw arguments" as well.

who's the troll now?

here, i found a page for you to look up:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hypocrite

[tehceech]

And don't forget this one

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enturbulate

[MadEwokHerd]

anyone who was "angered" by cheech's first post needs to re-evaluate his priorities in life.

Yes, but none of that has to do with intention. If you look at the definition, that's the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter if there's something wrong with people who were angered. It doesn't matter if anyone was angered. It doesn't matter how polite or humorous or correct or insightful you may have been. All that matters is intention, and you haven't answered my question.

This leads me to believe that you have something to hide, and therefore you probably did intend it.

the first replies, which came from neither of us, were the first ones that, given their harsh accusing tone, could've "angered" people of special sensibilities. they were certainly meant to "draw arguments" as well.

who's the troll now?

Whoever was a troll before.

[Spectre137]

Yes, but none of that has to do with intention. If you look at the definition, that's the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter if there's something wrong with people who were angered. It doesn't matter if they were angered. It doesn't matter how polite or humorous or correct or insightful you may have been. All that matters is intention, and you haven't answered my question.

my intention was to teach these kids not to encourage a company to produce sub-mediocrity by glorifying sub-mediocrity. do you accept my answer or will you reject it because it doesn't support your argument?

This leads me to believe that you have something to hide, and therefore you probably did intend it.

excuse me, but what post of mine are you referring to anyway? i don't remember posting in this thread before some other people started throwing **** at cheech, the warrior in the name of comedy. so why aren't you blaming them? oh that's right ...

Whoever was a troll before.

... http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hypocrite

[MadEwokHerd]

my intention was to teach these kids not to encourage a company to produce sub-mediocrity by glorifying sub-mediocrity.

Well, why didn't you say so? You're not a troll then of course. Jeez.

excuse me, but what post of mine are you referring to anyway?
I wasn't looking at any of your posts in particular. I was assuming you'd have about the same intention for posting throughout the entire thread.

i don't remember posting in this thread before some other people started throwing **** at cheech, the warrior in the name of comedy. so why aren't you blaming them?

Because the topic of discussion was whether you, personally, were a troll, which has nothing to do with when you first posted. No one was ever blamed for anything, merely accused of trolling, and no one seemed to care whether anyone else was engaged in that activity.

[Spectre137]

Because the topic of discussion was whether you, personally, were a troll, which has nothing to do with when you first posted.

see, that's another assumption of you that's incorrect.

i have been labeled a troll by you and some other people simply because i've expressed harsh criticism and blatant disrespect towards team17.

the topic was whether or not it is acceptable to be considered a troll for "disagreeing with the mainstream opinion" of the message board, which is what has happened. this problem is as old as the internet itself (and indeed if one considers minority groups, as old as society) and is generally considered "fascist" in nature.

oh wait, here's a wiktionary link for you, in case you didn't know how to look for it:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fascist

[MadEwokHerd]

see, that's another assumption of you that's incorrect.

i have been labeled a troll by you and some other people simply because i've expressed harsh criticism and blatant disrespect towards team17.

the topic was whether or not it is acceptable to be considered a troll for "disagreeing with the mainstream opinion" of the message board, which is what has happened. this problem is as old as the internet itself (and indeed if one considers minority groups, as old as society) and is generally considered "fascist" in nature.

But the people who thought of it this way were incorrect, as the only thing that matters according to the definition is intention. I've corrected their flawed way of thinking with my wiktionary-looking-up skills (which are fine, but thank you for the link nonetheless).

[MrMister]

Can we put our own custom hat bmps in the game?
That would redeem the game in my eyes.

[Vader]

And don't forget this one

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enturbulate

Ahahaha Scientologist.

Also, this thread cracks me up. The points are all recycled from everyone else's opinions (or might as well be, at least) but the way in which they've been expressed makes for a good read.

Worms 4:Mayhem is quite obviously Worms 3D with a bit more time spent on it to make hats.

To be honest, if the hats changed the stats of your team (+HP -DMG, access to certain weapons, etc) and came in a form other than hats then it'd be quite interesting, at least in concept. That, however, is tant amount to not having hats and just having stats. FTW!

I'm going to head over to the "Suggest how many hats should be in Worms 9" thread and post my stats idea.

[Maunem2]

It seems to me, that it is time to us to change a theme for conversation, in fact the only thing, than now we are engaged here - so it we wash up bones Team17 (russian phraseological unit), mutually insulting each other...

tehceech! If you want, create in "Online Orgy" a thread: "Thread of complaints and offers" where you and can criticize... with others, Team17 and to specify to them all of them mistakes, not stirring other people!

...W4:M is already created. The only thing, that you can make is to affect what that in the image on Worms 5... If you can make the game interesting NOT ONLY to yorself, but also FOR THE MAJORITY - go to their building and be employed to work - we not against!!!

P.S. In the last paragraph was the first & the last MY insult here...
tehceech, I have an offer... As you have rights of a moderator in this theme, open poll, whether is it necessary to close or remove this theme...

[Vader]

Dude, you should post more often.

I love reading your crazyily translated posts. :D

[robowurmz]

Whoever wrote this review must be a blind retard. Who has never owned Worms4:Mayhem. THE 4 DOES NOT STAND FOR 4D! IT MEANS THE 4th GAME! (aside from W:A and WWP).

[Spectre137]

Dude, you should post more often.

I love reading your crazyily translated posts. :D

yes. i may not have understood a single thing he wanted to say but i love russians.

especially those with a large moustache who fight hitler like they were crazy anime characters.

MOAR.

[Maunem2]

I want to say, that we must change theme for talking...
This thread about W4:M, but we talk only about problems of Team17...

[Vader]

True, but they are problems these people feel are best highlighted by Worms 4: Mayhat.

[Maunem2]

But, how I told, not here...

[Plasma]

Wait...
Vader, do you even have the full game of Worms4Mayhem? Because if I recall correctly, you only played the demo.

[Vader]

The demo showed me that I wouldn't enjoy the game very much but that's absolutely irrelevant. I didn't start this topic, after all.

[Plasma]

The demo showed me that I wouldn't enjoy the game very much but that's absolutely irrelevant. I didn't start this topic, after all.
No, but you are one of the people making radical claims about Worms4.
For example "Worms 4:Mayhem is quite obviously Worms 3D with a bit more time spent on it to make hats."

[Vader]

Are you trying to tell me they spent more time on making hats in Worms 3D than they did in Worms 4: Mayhem?

[Spectre137]

oh dear, we're making radical claims.

next thing you know, we're extremists.

then terrists.

i like where this is going.

[Plasma]

Are you trying to tell me they spent more time on making hats in Worms 3D than they did in Worms 4: Mayhem?
No.

oh dear, we're making radical claims.

next thing you know, we're extremists.

then terrists.

i like where this is going.
Don't worry, you won't be considered a "terrist" anytime soon.

[tehceech]

Whoever wrote this review must be a blind retard. Who has never owned Worms4:Mayhem. THE 4 DOES NOT STAND FOR 4D! IT MEANS THE 4th GAME! (aside from W:A and WWP).

I bet you felt real smart when you posted that, it's just a shame that by posting you've made a complete idiot of yourself.
I heard that sucks but don't let it stop you in the future.

[Vader]

No.In that case, would you please be kind enough to explain to me how it was a "radical claim"?

[Plasma]

In that case, would you please be kind enough to explain to me how it was a "radical claim"?
Ahem...
"Worms 4:Mayhem is quite obviously Worms 3D with a bit more time spent on it to make hats."
This post suggests that there was no difference other than hats, or that the differences were byproducts of adding in hats.

[Vader]

It suggest that Worms 4: Mayhem has more hats in it and a byproduct of that was time spent on making hats.

[Spectre137]

Ahem...
"Worms 4:Mayhem is quite obviously Worms 3D with a bit more time spent on it to make hats."
This post suggests that there was no difference other than hats, or that the differences were byproducts of adding in hats.

and how is that not true?

[Vader]

and how is that not true?

Worms 4: Mayhem also has gloves, masks/facials, hair (hats), some new weapons*, a new front-end, a slightly different credits list, some new missions, some new terrains.

It's basically Worms 3D but also it has (among other things**) hats.

*These are mainly rehashes of otherwise excluded weapons.

**These things mainly include dressing your worms up.

[tehceech]

Ahem...
"Worms 4:Mayhem is quite obviously Worms 3D with a bit more time spent on it to make hats."
This post suggests that there was no difference other than hats, or that the differences were byproducts of adding in hats.

Oh damn, that's much better than my review.

[Spectre137]

Worms 4: Mayhem also has gloves, masks/facials, hair (hats), some new weapons*, a new front-end, a slightly different credits list, some new missions, some new terrains.

It's basically Worms 3D but also it has (among other things**) hats.

*These are mainly rehashes of otherwise excluded weapons.

**These things mainly include dressing your worms up.

now i feel stupid for not adding gloves and masks onto the spaedg avatar =(

[robowurmz]

The physics in W4:M are completely different from the ones in W3D. Also, the terrains use different physics. The water is different. The way the water behaves in the environment is different. The missions are linked in a story. There are FMV's. The cutscenes are extremely complicated (like having a cannon on the terrain firing and blowing up another piece of terrain and a worm to boot!).

There are literally hundreds of differences in this game from W3D.

It's not all about hats, idiots.

[MadEwokHerd]

Don't forget the new copy protection that doesn't run in wine.

[Maunem2]

Physics in W4:M, how somebody told, another than in W3D... It's a part of new gameplay, that make the game better... Facial expression of worms is more funny...
...Yeah, it is 3D Worms, but it is not W3D!

[Maunem2]

...hey, guys!...
maybe, someone will be glad... but I saw here Spage... he read it...

СПАСАЙСЯ, КТО МОЖЕТ!!!

[Vader]

idiots.

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30501

----------

[Spectre137]

There are FMV's. The cutscenes are extremely complicated (like having a cannon on the terrain firing and blowing up another piece of terrain and a worm to boot!).

you know you're desperate when you spend more time taling about FMVs than about game features.

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30501

ahahahahah

[tehceech]

Yes! use the 'make gaem' filter!

[Vader]

That filter certainly makes life easier:

http://vader.wurmz.net/wa5

[AndrewTaylor]

terrain deformation is not a constant strain on the processor as it is only calculated on weapon impact.

Ah, but the underlying system that allows the terrain deformation has other knock-on effects. A map in Quake or Half Life (and 90% of any given Red Faction map, most of the time) is a straightforward polygon model of exactly the kind 3D cards are specifically designed to render very fast. A Worms 4 map is a completely different thing -- it's generated almost on-the-fly by the PC, and as such is nothing like as well optimised. It's all well and good saying it's only calculated on impact, but you can't have a little progress bar pop up every time there's an explosion. That would be rubbish. It still has to be fast.

I'm not pretending to know much of anything about 3D programming -- I've done some simple things in OpenGL and they work but they're pretty slow -- but I know more than enough about programming to know it isn't fair to directly compare something like Quake, which is for all its hype a perfectly standard, cookie-cutter FPS of the kind people have had a decade to perfect, to something like Worms 4. Worms 4 may be programmed superbly or awfully. I'm in no position to judge. But nor, really, is anyone else unless they've actually tried it. Perhaps you should apply for a job with Team17. Solve everyone's problems at a stroke.

[bine]

Perhaps you should apply for a job with Team17. Solve everyone's problems at a stroke.

Nah, he's already said he wouldn't do that.

[Spectre137]

Ah, but the underlying system that allows the terrain deformation has other knock-on effects.

not really. you can intersect arbitrary geometry just fine without the need of maintaining additional data just to make it possible. in fact, you'd only need to calculate the geometric intersection, fill and texture-map the resulting hole and refresh the affected branch in the spatial partition tree (whichever team17 is using) which would also update the collision detection system. the hole caps are essentially distorted and projected 2d meshes, which leaves a lot of room for optimization.

A map in Quake or Half Life (and 90% of any given Red Faction map, most of the time) is a straightforward polygon model of exactly the kind 3D cards are specifically designed to render very fast.

it's the developer's job to make it render quickly. if they haven't done it, they have failed.

A Worms 4 map is a completely different thing -- it's generated almost on-the-fly by the PC

IF this is true, and i highly doubt it, it would speak volumes about team17's lack of experience with graphics programming.

, and as such is nothing like as well optimised. It's all well and good saying it's only calculated on impact, but you can't have a little progress bar pop up every time there's an explosion. That would be rubbish. It still has to be fast.

i don't think you understand the issue completely. the terrain deformation we have in worms mayhem is a one-time calculation. suppose it takes the algorithm 200 milliseconds to complete all related computations (which is a lot of time, probably ten times times longer than the actual calculation) chances are you wouldn't notice it at all during gameplay. on the other hand, if you'd need to run the same algorithm for every frame your refresh rate would drop below 5Hz. in terms of what is acceptable, a one-time calculation is entirely different from an algorithm that needs to run 24 times a second. you wouldn't need a progress bar, heck, you wouldn't notice it if nobody told you. and i can guarantee you that the calculation is much faster than that (if it's correctly implemented).

I'm not pretending to know much of anything about 3D programming -- I've done some simple things in OpenGL and they work but they're pretty slow -- but I know more than enough about programming to know it isn't fair to directly compare something like Quake, which is for all its hype a perfectly standard, cookie-cutter FPS of the kind people have had a decade to perfect, to something like Worms 4. Worms 4 may be programmed superbly or awfully. I'm in no position to judge. But nor, really, is anyone else unless they've actually tried it.

judging by the performance of the game, its computational inaccuracies and its utterly outdated graphics i can safely say, as an expert in the field, that it is not a very good effort.

Perhaps you should apply for a job with Team17. Solve everyone's problems at a stroke.

like i've already said, i would, but i don't want to kill my career.

[Maunem2]

Spectre137!
...W4:M is ended. But you can affect Worms 5...
In "Suggestion & Discussion" there is thread about it... Sometimes Spadge visit there...
But please: without insults!

[Spectre137]

Spectre137!
...W4:M is ended. But you can affect Worms 5...
In "Suggestion & Discussion" there is thread about it... Sometimes Spadge visit there...
But please: without insults!

happy 100th post dude.

[Vader]

Yeah, Spectre137.

Didn't you know that people aren't allowed to discuss games which have already been released?

What would be the point in that?

[Plasma]

One thing I don't understand is why a mod hasn't yet locked this thread due to continuous flaming?

[df095z]

Because the (a)sympathetic world understands and pities the inevitable lack-of-attention that such an un-fortunate mentally handicapped person is burdened upon birth due to some ugly physical defect.

Where else can such people get 'love' other than a Worms:4 Forum?

[Vader]

One thing I don't understand is why a mod hasn't yet locked this thread due to continuous flaming?

Have you learnt nothing?

Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to bring bad memories up.

[Maunem2]

People!
Without flaming, please!

This thread appeared few days ago... & after those days it became so popular...
By the way, in 11.05 GMT here was Spadge. If he not deleted this thread, maybe he find here interesting info...

[Spectre137]

yeah, bring on teh spage!

in all seriousness, i've looked around the forum and i have to say, we've successfully turned this thread it into one of the most interesting. well done chaps. no doubt it'll have no effect whatsoever on the future development of worms games but i can't say i regret it.

as for worms 5 suggestions, they're altogether pointless as long as the next worms game is based in any part on the worms 3d system. i would go so far as to say that it's impossible to make a 3d worms game enjoyable as long as you operate your worm in 3 dimensions at all times.

but here's an idea i've just had. what if you kept the 3d maps (on a rewritten engine, of course), but made it so that the player can move in and out of 3d mode at any given time during his turn? suppose a worm is looking in a certain direction. if you switch to 2d mode you would simply see the profile of the map from the side (based on the view direction), as if you were playing a 2d worms game. and you could play it as if it were 2d, rope around, throw grenades and whatnot. then, if you wanted to change the view angle you'd switch back to 3d mode and move around, jump around, find a new perspective, whatever.

that way you would keep the enhanced strategic and graphic possibilities of a 3d environment while keeping the intuitiveness and the charm of 2d worms.

as far as i can imagine it wouldn't interfere with the physical principles of the game, the 2d mode would simply limit you to move along the straight upright plane that extends in your view direction and only interact with objects or worms that are on it.

it would be like having an unlimited amount of 2d worms maps in a 3d environment, and you would choose which one you wanted to move on, whichever would work best for you at any given time.

come to think of it, it would be ****ing brilliant, and the way i see it, it would be the only way to make a 3d worms game work.

[Maunem2]

...It's cool idea, but not for this thread... ;)

[Vader]

To be honest, I think a hybrid/2.5D Worms would be nice but the real problem isn't that the games are 3D, it's just that they lack the same delicate charm that the 2D games have.

[Plasma]

in all seriousness, i've looked around the forum and i have to say, we've successfully turned this thread it into one of the most interesting.
110 posts is actually quite a small amount for a large thread on this forum.
Heck, the topic on my own fangame has 1,310 posts, and it's shunned by half of the forumers here.
Yes, I know that post count isn't proportional to interest, but it has a bit of an impact on it. And it's kinda hard to measure without.

but here's an idea i've just had. what if you kept the 3d maps (on a rewritten engine, of course), but made it so that the player can move in and out of 3d mode at any given time during his turn? suppose a worm is looking in a certain direction. if you switch to 2d mode you would simply see the profile of the map from the side (based on the view direction), as if you were playing a 2d worms game. and you could play it as if it were 2d, rope around, throw grenades and whatnot. then, if you wanted to change the view angle you'd switch back to 3d mode and move around, jump around, find a new perspective, whatever.

that way you would keep the enhanced strategic and graphic possibilities of a 3d environment while keeping the intuitiveness and the charm of 2d worms.

as far as i can imagine it wouldn't interfere with the physical principles of the game, the 2d mode would simply limit you to move along the straight upright plane that extends in your view direction and only interact with objects or worms that are on it.

it would be like having an unlimited amount of 2d worms maps in a 3d environment, and you would choose which one you wanted to move on, whichever would work best for you at any given time.

come to think of it, it would be ****ing brilliant, and the way i see it, it would be the only way to make a 3d worms game work.
Just to point out, that was suggested before.

[Vader]

110 posts is actually quite a small amount for a large thread on this forum.In 4 days?

Okay. If you say so.

[tehceech]

Oh! I have a suggestion for Worms 5D more hats please! (http://spaedg.ytmnd.com/)

5D means it will take place in a parallel universe and I won't have to waste my time downloading it to see how bad it is right?

[Spectre137]

110 posts is actually quite a small amount for a large thread on this forum.
Heck, the topic on my own fangame has 1,310 posts, and it's shunned by half of the forumers here.
Yes, I know that post count isn't proportional to interest, but it has a bit of an impact on it. And it's kinda hard to measure without.

actually, if you sort this forum by number of replies, this thread stands a good chance of getting into the top 10 most popular threads before it dies.

but i wasn't speaking of reply count, i was merely calling it more interesting.
clearly it's more interesting than "post your silly demo screenshots!" and that's the most popular thread in this forum.

Just to point out, that was suggested before.

o rly? that's even worse. i wonder why people think they can make a difference in the suggestion threads when great ideas are ignored.

To be honest, I think a hybrid/2.5D Worms would be nice but the real problem isn't that the games are 3D, it's just that they lack the same delicate charm that the 2D games have.

i think it's rather complicated. worms 2d is fun for the following reasons:

a) you can look at the entire complexity of the map in little more than a second and plan your turn around the coverage area of your worms, the enemy worms, your weapons/tools and their weapons/tools.
b) the strategy you devise from these considerations must be constantly adapted because the map changes on every turn. the map is the most important element in the game. this is why ...
c) a good game setup requires a map of several (but not too many) intersecting areas of worm/weapon coverage. these areas should be distributed in such a way that you lose and gain coverage area as you move your worm around the map, thus requiring you to sacrifice coverage for a better strategical position and making clever compromises between worm placement, round time and weapon usage.
d) because you have a perfect view of the map you are able to plan your moves very precisely. sometimes your worm needs to travel so far that losing a second through an unfortunate jump may cost you your turn, or even the game.
e) moving your worm is intiutive, predictable and precise. every pixel of the surrounding map is visible to you. as an experienced player you know what to expect of the map and what possibilities it allows you.

now let me point out how these rules are violated by worms 3d

a) no matter how good you are at using the camera, it's impossible for you to capture the entire map detail very quickly. you need to zoom in, zoom out, rotate the view and pan around in order to get oriented, and in the time it takes you to zoom in onto a single detail a worms 2d player has already memorized the entire map and has started to think of a strategy.
c) worms 2d maps are fairly complex, incorporating many intersecting systems of caverns and object that can be utilized for strategic effect. the maps are complex because the 2d view allows them to be. the worms 3d maps are not only much more simple for performance reasons but because they would otherwise be incomprehensible in a 3d view. imagine a cavern map in worms 3d. not possible. how would you not get confused by it? this downside effectively renders the entire strategical aspect of the game moot.
d) not only are the worms 3d maps very simple by comparison, but because you're in a 3d environment you can only look at them from a limited point of view. when you plan your turn you must constantly zoom in and out rotate, move the camera, rinse, repeat. and when you've eventually decided upon a path, as you are navigating your worm through the environment you're never sure if your assumptions about the map are correct. you can't see the object you're about to cimb because something is blocking your view or because you haven't turned towards it yet.
e) maneuvering a worm is not like maneuvering a FPS character. there is a good reason why FPS maps are mostly composed of square rooms, corridors and hallways: because moving on vertical types of environments is counterintuitive. by nature the FPS character is far more responsive than the worm. he can change directions during jumps even though that's physically impossible. and there's a good reason for it. if FPS characters were moving with the speed, agility and stamina of real people it would be a frustrating bore-fest. the 3d worm cannot and should not be as responsive as the FPS guy, that would be ridiculous. at the same time the worm must manage far more precise physical feats than the FPS character. jumping over holes, on top of objects and so on. that's a lot of fun when you're controlling it from the side. when you can see the entire map you can plan every step and every move.

but let me put it this way: drawing a path through a maze is adequately entertaining, or at least possible. but imagine you had to get to the other end of the same maze through the point of view of a dot in a 3d environment, with no possibility of looking at it from the side. what does that sound like? fun or pure frustration?

my hybrid worms 2d/3d idea bring together the best of both worlds in a way that is most tolerable.

the bottom line is this: you can't adapt every 2d concept to 3 dimensions and then expect it to be just as entertaining. in the case of worms team17 should've been more creative than "let's make the same thing, except in 3d". but it's too late now, isn't it?

[Plasma]

my hybrid worms 2d/3d idea bring together the best of both worlds in a way that is most tolerable.
Not quite.
Look back on your points about why 2D are good. Most of them are about how you can form an instant strategy or how you can find it easier to navigate a maze, and such like. However, these wont apply for your idea, as the map will still be 3D. Eg: The maze will still be 3D, the sidescreen isn't going to do much.
In the previous topic, the biggest point was for the assistance to aiming. And, as I like to think of W2D and W3D as separate games, I amn't too fond of that point.

the bottom line is this: you can't adapt every 2d concept to 3 dimensions and then expect it to be just as entertaining. in the case of worms team17 should've had to be more creative than "let's make the same thing, except in 3d". but it's too late now, isn't it?
When you look at it like that, Team17 had three options:
1: "Let's make the same thing, except in 3D"
2: "Let's make the same thing"
3: "Let's try something completely origional"

Option 2 is good, as you can change some of the things on the past. However, the worms franchise is based on it's origionality. It would require some wait before you could make a considerably better version.
Option 3 sounds all nice, but there's a high chance of the entire concept going belly-up. And for a small-ish developer like Team17, that can be a huge risk.
Option 1 is what's currently up. There's no need really to tell you about this option; except that it was also a good bit or an origional idea too.

[Spectre137]

it seems like you didn't understand my idea at all, which frankly doesn't surprise me.

Not quite.
Look back on your points about why 2D are good. Most of them are about how you can form an instant strategy or how you can find it easier to navigate a maze, and such like. However, these wont apply for your idea, as the map will still be 3D. Eg: The maze will still be 3D, the sidescreen isn't going to do much.

you'd be playing on a 2d profile of the map. most three-dimensional aspects of it would be irrelevant unless you wanted to change point/direction of view.

In the previous topic, the biggest point was for the assistance to aiming. And, as I like to think of W2D and W3D as separate games, I amn't too fond of that point.

what? ahahahaha

amn't

ahahahahahah

When you look at it like that, Team17 had three options:
1: "Let's make the same thing, except in 3D"
2: "Let's make the same thing"
3: "Let's try something completely origional"

Option 2 is good, as you can change some of the things on the past. However, the worms franchise is based on it's origionality.

yes, now that you mention it i can clearly see the sublime spirit of originality that so clearly influenced worms armageddon, worms world party, worms forts under siege and worms mayhem.

in fact, the only mildly "original" parts of the worms franchise were worms 1, worms 2, worms 3d and worms blast, and half of these suck.

but then you have to consider that worms 2 was just a rewritten modern version of worms 1 and worms 3d was worms 2d adapted into 3 dimensions. gee, it seems like the only original worms titles were in fact worms 1 and worms blast, and worms blast wasn't much of a worms game.

of course, if you consider worms blast's strinking similarity to hundreds of online flash games that are all virtually the same, that basically leaves worms 1 as the only original game in the franchise.

and guess whom we have to thank for that: not the team17 we know today but andy davidson.

It would require some wait before you could make a considerably better version.

now you're really grasping for straws. i don't even know how to respond, my laughter is so loud i can't hear my thoughts anymore.

Option 3 sounds all nice, but there's a high chance of the entire concept going belly-up. And for a small-ish developer like Team17, that can be a huge risk.

excuse me, but what part of worms 3d did not go belly up?

Option 1 is what's currently up. There's no need really to tell you about this option; except that it was also a good bit or an origional idea too.

perhaps you should start by telling us what you find so original about worms 3d.

amn't

ahahahahahah sorry, i can't stop laughing

[Vader]

Amn't is a collquialism. I believe it exists in most Gaelic dialects.

Having just played the Worms 4: Mayhem demo again, I can safely say that there are hats.

I would have liked to have seen the options available in the weapon editor even if I couldn't actually use anything I made in there. That was disappointing. I think the weapon editor would be the only thing that might make me tinker with W4. It lacks the simplicity of the 2D Worms games and just isn't my thing. There's too much emphasis on hats.

I conclude that it is like Marmite. You either love it or hate it. Still, it's good reading what people think about the game and how it makes them think about the franchise.

Shine on, you crazy diamonds.

[robowurmz]

----------

So I suppose you are trying to turn this into a look at everyone's mistakes thread. You really do look like a retard now. Since that has nothing to do with W4:M, you have made your own thread void.
And as for tehceech and spectre, you two are really wierd.
I think that you are actually the same person, due to the likeness of your avatars. If you like spadge so much, why criticise one of his great and amazing triumphs?

Some people are very very very stupid and retarded. It annoys me how they cannot even write a proper review. A review looks at all the points in THE FULL VERSION of a game.

Now you are
Ix10^3.


And if you like critiscing people's way of talking you can just get out of here, because you plainly can't speak at all. "ahahahhahaahahah". As far as I remember that isn't even a word. yes, now that you mention it i can clearly see the sublime spirit of originality that so clearly influenced worms armageddon, worms world party, worms forts under siege and worms mayhem.

in fact, the only mildly "original" parts of the worms franchise were worms 1, worms 2, worms 3d and worms blast, and half of these suck.

but then you have to consider that worms 2 was just a rewritten modern version of worms 1 and worms 3d was worms 2d adapted into 3 dimensions. gee, it seems like the only original worms titles were in fact worms 1 and worms blast, and worms blast wasn't much of a worms game.

OOOH! LOOK WHO CAN'T USE CAPITALISATION!

[Plasma]

it seems like you didn't understand my idea at all, which frankly doesn't surprise me.
Actually, it doesn't suprise me either.

you'd be playing on a 2d profile of the map. most three-dimensional aspects of it would be irrelevant unless you wanted to change point/direction of view.
...
Yup, you were right on the first point.

what? ahahahaha
Amn't (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/amn%27t) is a Celtic English word, and I'm Irish. So I would greatly appreciate that you stop.

in fact, the only mildly "original" parts of the worms franchise were worms 1, worms 2, worms 3d and worms blast, and half of these suck.
And Worms Forts. That didn't suck, too.

but then you have to consider that worms 2 was just a rewritten modern version of worms 1 and worms 3d was worms 2d adapted into 3 dimensions. gee, it seems like the only original worms titles were in fact worms 1 and worms blast, and worms blast wasn't much of a worms game.

of course, if you consider worms blast's strinking similarity to hundreds of online flash games that are all virtually the same, that basically leaves worms 1 as the only original game in the franchise.
But when you think about it, there were plenty of 2D games that involve jumping around the place and shooting before worms 1.

now you're really grasping for straws. i don't even know how to respond, my laughter is so loud i can't hear my thoughts anymore.
WA to WWP? There wasn't any big difference there.

excuse me, but what part of worms 3d did not go belly up?
Ok then, so all origional ideas were craptacular.
Therefore, you should not complain about Team17 not being more creative and origional.

perhaps you should start by telling us what you find so original about worms 3d.
Play a 2D worms game. Then play W3D or W4. Surely there's obviously a big difference.

[Vader]

retard

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30501
...


Since that has nothing to do with W4:M, you have made your own thread void.
This isn't my thread.


And as for tehceech and spectre, I think that you are actually the same person, due to the likeness of your avatars.
NO RLY, they're not.


Some people are very very very stupid and retarded.
http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30501
...


It annoys me how they cannot even write a proper review. A review looks at all the points in THE FULL VERSION of a game.
The demo has shown me a lot of points I dislike about the game, though I don't know about anyone else.

Would you complain if I was praising Worms 4: Mayhem as the best Worms game if I had only played the demo?

OOOH! LOOK WHO CAN'T USE CAPITALISATION!
Ooh, look who can't use capitalisation!


WA to WWP? There wasn't any big difference there.
Yeah, it was disappointing at the time, too.

[robowurmz]

...

Ooh, look who can't use capitalisation!

I used all caps to convey and important message to people. Surely someone of such great intelligence as yourself should be able to figure THAT out. And what's with the constant quoting of my picture? I later admitted that that was a joke. Reading posts is very helpful.

[Vader]

I used all caps to convey and important message to people. Surely someone of such great intelligence as yourself should be able to figure THAT out. And what's with the constant quoting of my picture? I later admitted that that was a joke. Reading posts is very helpful.

Capitalising all of your words is both ugly and non-compliant with prescriptive UK English linguistics.

Furthermore, I don't believe it was a joke.

[robowurmz]

I didn't captialise all of my words. There were a lot more words before those.

[Vader]

Now you're being facetious. That's a sign of idiocy, though I'm not one to name-call.

retard

Oh but you are.

I think I have the moral high-ground here.

[tehceech]

So I suppose you are trying to turn this into a look at everyone's mistakes thread. You really do look like a retard now. Since that has nothing to do with W4:M, you have made your own thread void.
And as for tehceech and spectre, you two are really wierd.
I think that you are actually the same person, due to the likeness of your avatars. If you like spadge so much, why criticise one of his great and amazing triumphs?

Some people are very very very stupid and retarded. It annoys me how they cannot even write a proper review. A review looks at all the points in THE FULL VERSION of a game.

Now you are
Ix10^3.


And if you like critiscing people's way of talking you can just get out of here, because you plainly can't speak at all. "ahahahhahaahahah". As far as I remember that isn't even a word.

OOOH! LOOK WHO CAN'T USE CAPITALISATION!

1/ Specs avatar has a hat. Mine zooms in and out in a zany fashion!
2/ spaedg is like a poor mans cliffyb and we remember him fondly from the good old days when team17 liked to impress us by posting gay porn on the allotment forums and generally throwing the dramas.
3/ something about hats.

[Spectre137]

Actually, it doesn't suprise me either.

...
Yup, you were right on the first point.

But when you think about it, there were plenty of 2D games that involve jumping around the place and shooting before worms 1.

Ok then, so all origional ideas were craptacular.
Therefore, you should not complain about Team17 not being more creative and origional.

oh i don't know how to reply since you've suddenly decided to agree with me.
but then again you've just implied that worms 1 was a ripoff.
the only game i remember that was roughly like worms (in that you point and shoot on a 2d plane) was qbasic bananas, or whatever that was called. it wasn't much fun but microsoft made it, so what do i know?


Amn't (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/amn%27t) is a Celtic English word, and I'm Irish. So I would greatly appreciate that you stop.

it's still funny as hell. sorry.

And Worms Forts. That didn't suck, too.

i wouldn't say that out loud if i were you.

WA to WWP? There wasn't any big difference there.

i never said there was.


Play a 2D worms game. Then play W3D or W4. Surely there's obviously a big difference.

yes, the difference is they made the same thing in 3d while removing a lot of things that made the 2d version fun.

as for robowurmz, mate, you may not have realized that i haven't capitalized any of my words so far. i thought you could logically conclude that it wasn't a one-time accident or a misspelling or anything.

If you like spadge so much, why criticise one of his great and amazing triumphs?

we laugh at him because womrs mayham is, in fact, one of spaedg's great and amazing triumphs. if you don't find any comedy in that then you have no sense of humor.

"ahahahhahaahahah". As far as I remember that isn't even a word.

AHAHAHAHHA

i came.

[MadEwokHerd]

I think that you are actually the same person, due to the likeness of your avatars.
How many times do we need to go over this? Oldbies like Vader and I recognize both of these people. They are not the same.

Worms Forts sucked. I was not able to decide based on the demo whether Worms Blast sucks or not, but it also didn't run very well on Wine.

[Maunem2]

...W4:M is not the best Worms game, but it is the best 3D Worms game.
Odnoznach'no!

[robowurmz]

Let's all agree with Maunem.
He's got the best idea rather than picking on eachother.

[lemonberry]

robo you just think that because you don't have the capacity to pick on anyone in return.

[Vader]

I beg to differ:
Some people are very very very stupid and retarded.

Also, for tradition's sake:

http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30501

[guyy]

Yes, posting again...but only as another feeble attempt to stop this pointlessness.

Why the nonstop flaming, exactly? Is everyone just endlessly trying to get back at each other? Seems like it. Most of these people weren't acting like trolls until this thread showed up. So, whoever's reading this: If you're not a troll, I'd suggest staying out of here; there's nothing more pointless than an insultfest.

If you really are a troll, though, I doubt I can stop you. You're probably planning an insulting reponse to this post already.

[lemonberry]

guyy can you please stop trolling our threads please? these are serious issues.

[guyy]

...And here's the first one:

guyy can you please stop trolling our threads please? these are serious issues.

This must be the most sarcastic thread ever created. (And pointless, but I already said that.)

Before just insulting me again, maybe you should consider actually discussing something besides who here is the biggest troll/moron/whatever.

[robowurmz]

I beg to differ:


Also, for tradition's sake:

At least I'm not half as retarded as someone putting the same link up 3 times in a row.
:p

[Maunem2]

I think, that for insults mods should give originators a label "flamed"...
Victims not should answer roughness - they should press a sign on the reference to mods only...

[robowurmz]

You're right, Maunem.

Sorry, Vader. And tehceech and spectre.

[Spectre137]

This must be the most sarcastic thread ever created.

you obviously haven't been around the inter-nets very much. sarcasm is the language of the inter-nets because it's not a big truck, it is in fact a series of tubes!

(And pointless, but I already said that.)

you know, considering all the interesting issues and suggestions that have been discussed in this thread, i find it hard to believe that it's even slightly as pointless as your award-winning threads "Worms 4 site...but no Worms 4 game!" or "Reincarnated Site/Fan-Game".

Before just insulting me again, maybe you should consider actually discussing something besides who here is the biggest troll/moron/whatever.

the irony may be lost on you, but it's us who want to have a discussion while the rest of you is covering your ears yelling LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALA.

[guyy]

you obviously haven't been around the inter-nets very much. sarcasm is the language of the inter-nets because it's not a big truck, it is in fact a series of tubes!

Is everyone still making fun of that guy, or is it just you? Though I'll never understand why "pipes" is a better description of a bunch of wires.


you know, considering all the interesting issues and suggestions that have been discussed in this thread, i find it hard to believe that it's even slightly as pointless as your award-winning threads "Worms 4 site...but no Worms 4 game!" or "Reincarnated Site/Fan-Game".

How many times do I need to say that, regardless of what else may be in here, this thread is primarily a flame-fest?

Oh yeah, that's right. An infinite number of times. I keep forgetting.


the irony may be lost on you, but it's us who want to have a discussion while the rest of you is covering your ears yelling LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALA.

If you want to have a discussion, do so, and stop flaming everyone.

[lemonberry]

Is everyone still making fun of that guy, or is it just you? Though I'll never understand why "pipes" is a better description of a bunch of wires.
the Internet is not simply a series of tubes, or "wires" as you so eloquently put it. the Internet is a series of computers connected by tubes ("wires") that allow them to transmit data back and forth. it's like saying a city is just a series of roads. so, the Internet is, in essence, an international network. see what i did there?

How many times do I need to say that, regardless of what else may be in here, this thread is primarily a flame-fest?
this thread was a flamefest only after everyone started attacking Cheech's review.

Oh yeah, that's right. An infinite number of times. I keep forgetting.
that's a lot of times.

If you want to have a discussion, do so, and stop flaming everyone.
pot kettle black

[Vader]

Caaarrr!

robowurmz, I have read your apology post but I'm not entirely sure why you think I've insulted anyone since I haven't; please correct me if I'm wrong.

I suppose saying that you were being facetious might count but then you were being so if I hadn't said it.

You've called me retarded a few times now; if you calssify my behaviour as retarded then I suggest you look up the definition of "retarded" and reassess your 'mental capacity' classification guidelines.

As people have already said, it is not Cheech, Spectre or lemonberry who have been flaming.

Everyone has been very hostile toward the opinions of these people. Whilst their opinions may have come across as negative and 'agressive', the reality is that they are big fans of the Worms games of old. They, like myself, pine to see another Worms game as enjoyable (or more so) as WA. Their posts are negative because that's the alignment of their opinions and they are 'agressive' because they are emotion-fuelled.

These people have been around since the dawn of the Worms community; despite their disappointment in the franchise's more recent releases they still contribute and communicate their opinions within the community.

If you can't see a die-hard Worms fan when you see one then you may also need to reassess your 'n00b to veteran' classification guidelines.

Game on...

[thomasp]

This thread has now lost any sense of its original topic (was there even one?), and seeing as it's turning into a flamewar:


*Thread closed*