WxW, the reason it sucks. [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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yakuza
3 Oct 2006, 18:23
I decided to separate this post from the arrow blocking thread because it was getting offtopic.
Okay, listen.
I do agree that shopping is somewhat a worthy scheme, but the only reason of this is that it gives something no other scheme does: Huge emphasis on knocking and general usage of weapons from rope. WxW adds virtually nothing, as much as Evil Bunny might want to argue thing is that a WxW is a stupid hybrid.
If player A is an experienced roper/eliter/roperacer and has played 3 shopper in his whole worming career, he will still be able to beat any PrO sHoPpA kid at shopper, and even have a BIGGER chance at WxW because it is even a bigger hybrid (as much as Evil Bunny begs to differ he is wrong, as I'll be as fast, if not faster, than any pro WxWer in a WxW map).
This means, these schemes are pretty silly (even though Shopping is a bit better because there is a whole lot of creativity involved).
This, of course, doesn't happen in other schemes, if you are an experienced roper/eliter/bng and never played a rr you'll never beat an experienced RRer (even if you're a super pro roper), and same goes with other combinations concerning these schemes, that's why these schemes are better.
Some examples come to mind:
-Ryan, once he was already one of the best RopeRacers around he still had a hard time playing ropers (not anymore :)) and i'm pretty confident he took his time to learn.
-Any roper, from the oldschool, those who used to play warmer non-stop, before RopeRacing was a scheme that required specialization would require quite a time to learn his bit at roperacing, proving these schemes are a world of their own.
If you put any of these examples, and had them play a WxW chances are they will automaticly be good at, or to be totally fair, would require a lot less time to learn, hence WxW being newbish, also known as having a really small learning curve if not no learning curve at all.
They are also referred to as newb schemes by many people, and even though some of them don't understand the reasoning or where never told they are in fact newbie schemes.
Why?
Because they take very little to be good at. Their learning curve is small (providing you are somewhat good at worms already). And yes, once someone masters Elite he will have an easy time playing Team17 (even though he'll still need to learn) But it's really worse in WxW shopper.
I'll put myself as an example:
First, i learned to rope (thank god shoppers weren't around when i started), and basically played Roper for 4 years, nothing else. I'm still improving, which makes Roper a really hard scheme to master, right? 2-3 years ago i started Eliteing, and it also took me a fair bit of time to get comfortable at it, and even though i still commit mistakes everyone does because Elite is such an awesome scheme that every game requires different ability. While i was a roper, i used to RopeRace, although RopeRace wasn't half as popular as it is today and the specialization was far from what it is today (same with Elite), and once i got really into it I realized how different it is to roper, even though i basically was a roper since 1999 it still took me a fair bit of time to learn roperacing.
Now, Shopping took me literally 1 day (and just to put a minimum date) to learn. In fact, i challenge anyone who considers himself god of shopping to a game to 3 or something, although you will have to take my word that i don't play shopping everyday (thing is I rarely play anymore).
WxW is even worse, seriously, I've played very good shoppers where quite a bit of skill was needed (in tournaments, league games), specially in dogma and mario map which in my opinion are the only 2 maps that should be allowed for shopping. But WxW is just plain silly, I've played a total of 5 WxW's in my life, bring it on WxW God, i challenge you.

Plasma
3 Oct 2006, 18:29
And what is WxW anyway?

yakuza
3 Oct 2006, 18:32
Why are you in this thread?
I invite you to leave, specially considering you have nothing to add.
The question is out of place, the information you are asking for is present in many worms websites so i assume your post is either ignorant or witty.
Either case, WA newbies who think they're something because they're active Team17 forumers are not welcomed in this thread to post witty/ignorant comments.

SuperBlob
3 Oct 2006, 18:34
Why are you in this thread?
I invite you to leave, specially considering you have nothing to add.
The question is out of place, the information you are asking for is present in many worms websites so i assume your post is either ignorant or witty.
Either case, WA newbies who think they're something because they're active Team17 forumers are not welcomed in this thread to post witty/ignorant comments.
If he knows what it is though, he could've actually added to the thread, so that renders that post an arrogant flame.

DarkOne
3 Oct 2006, 18:36
Agreed with the general concept. WxW also doesn't have any maps worth mentioning as they're usually just a small collection of lines turned into a pathetic excuse of a map; no option for tactical play whatsoever.
Just one big pile the whole game through.
The screwup percentage is usually high. if 50% of the turns end up in a shot and retreat, you have a good game.
You do underestimate somewhat the skills you need for shopper.
Can you do over 200 damage with a flame thrower? Can you fire your weapons so that enemy worms land exactly where you want them to?
And if you can: did you learn to do that in ropers and elite in all those years? Don't forget that experience from those games does count.
I'm a crappy roper. Had a league game with someone that was far better at roper. Afterwards, we did a shopper and even though we got similar weapons, he lost by a pretty big difference.
Of course, every game has its screwups, which one doesn't?

yakuza
3 Oct 2006, 18:38
If he knows what it is though, he could've actually added to the thread, so that renders that post an arrogant flame.
If he knows what it is then his post was witty, and that adds a whole dimension to your post, making it totally ironic.
DarkOne, i see where you're coming from with the Shopper, and i totally agree, specially when playing in the maps i mentioned the games can get really interesting and skill-based, but the way Shopper happens in the community, with all its stupid maps doesn't quite cut it for me to be able to consider it in the same category as the other schemes mentioned, random maps also don't quite cut it either as they usually remove most of the strategy and creativity that intelligent map spots offer (in dogma/mario)

Evil Bunny
3 Oct 2006, 18:39
1) It takes alot less skill to make love then it does to beat yakuza at rr
2) Any noob can do it.
3) There is no tactic to it.
4) It's just a hybrid of making babies and having a long term relationship.
Ya know what yakuza, if you don't like makin love that's fine by me but some of us do. And we don't do it because it's very challanging. We do it because it's enjoyable.

yakuza
3 Oct 2006, 18:44
1) It takes alot less skill to make love then it does to beat yakuza at rr
2) Any noob can do it.
3) There is no tactic to it.
4) It's just a hybrid of making babies and having a long term relationship.
Ya know what yakuza, if you don't like makin love that's fine by me but some of us do. And we don't do it because it's very challanging. We do it because it's enjoyable.
Yes but that is not what we're discussing. I'm not attacking those who love to WxW, not at all, you can play whatever you like.
I'm just pointing out why WxW is considered Newbish and the whole reasoning behind it, wich is pretty accurate in my opinion.
You may love it but that doesn't mean my reasoning is wrong, unless of course, you wanna have a go at elaborating a valid theory besides "ITS GUD CUZ I LOEV IT <3".
Glad you understood nothing.

Evil Bunny
3 Oct 2006, 18:52
lmao
Where did you see me say anything that disagrees with any of your arguements? I'm not saying it's hard to learn. I'm saying it's different. I'm not in full agreement with you there. I used to be pretty good at shop and i didn't lose to first day or first week or first month players, without acception.
You're the one argueing that it's an easy game, i'm in agreement with you. You are also saying you could beat the lot of us because you play rr and that takes more roping practice. Well then I would invite you to join a w2w tourney and win it. I haven't seen it happen yet. Though I should say i'm not the most active tourney player (actually I'm not even playing atm).
If you think you are better then w2w players, win a tourney to proove it. Otherwise don't go argueing over something you haven't got any proof of.

Plasma
3 Oct 2006, 18:54
If he knows what it is then his post was witty, and that adds a whole dimension to your post, making it totally ironic.
It wasn't.
And I'm still waiting on an answer.

Alien King
3 Oct 2006, 19:04
And what is WxW anyway?
WxW = Wall to Wall with x being the number of walls you need to touch.
Roper games are a very good way to learn how to use the rope, which is of course, why you could learn shopper so quickly and which is why you have an edge in them.
It is a shame that a lot of people see Shopper as a game devoid of strategy and just completely roping based (or even worse; luck based).
When I first played Worms, shoppers were pretty much the only thing to play. Being a terrible roper, I had to learn to get by with strategy (mostly by abusing the ABL rule). Naturally, over a few years my roping skills have increased by some degree and I can do well in shopper games and survive in ropers. However, I win in shoppers by using strategy. I work out if to attack, who to attack and how. Most people don't seem to bother and just go straight to: 'Do the Most Damage'.
Strategy in a shopper game and your ability to use weapons well is far more important than being amazing with the rope. You only need to be adequate.
Being an experienced roper player will not mean you will win against a shopper player who knows what he is doing, but, you accept that.
In shopper games, you have to learn to make do with the weapons you collect and how to use them best. It's impressive at the number of people do not know how powerful a cluster bomb can be and are amazed when it does 80+ damage (something quite easily achieved - I mean, really easily). As you said, there is great creativity with using weapons and knocking other worms. But you don't credit it enough.
WxW on the other hand, is a shopper game that focuses too much on roping and all creativity on using the weapons is mostly lost. However there are the very few exceptions.

yakuza
3 Oct 2006, 19:06
If you think you are better then w2w players, win a tourney to prove it. Otherwise don't go arguing over something you haven't got any proof of.
:rolleyes:
Hehe, fair enough, although if you where somewhat active in the competitive scene you'd understand where I'm coming from, you'd realize my opinion is somewhat the opinion of someone who knows what's he's talking about and wouldn't be demanding a proof the way you're doing it. I don't blame you for being sceptical on my W2W skills, specially considering I said I've played a minimum amount of WxW's in my worms career.
Sadly, I don't have enough time to participate in a W2W tourney nor i know of any that takes place out of WWP, a game I wouldn't install.
Although my challenge is still there, to anyone who considers himself good at WxW to play a few games.
This is my rating in the WWP singles league, which i played 1-2 years ago, those are the only WxWs I've played in my life. This, by no means reinforces my theory as it could be I happened to play really unskilled players (wasn't the case as some of those wins come from "Pro" WWP WxWers) but it's just to add substance to the thread as you are so demanding of a proof (and only because you are not as involved, or where, in the community as I am or was)
"wxw wins 8 loses 3" (you are free to go to www.cbc-wwp.com and check for yourself).
WxW on the other hand, is a shopper game that focuses too much on roping and all creativity on using the weapons is mostly lost. However there are the very few exceptions.
Quoted in agreement, but let me add, that it would be "okay" to lose the strategy part of the shopper, when moving on to WxW if there was something else that made it a worthy scheme, sadly, there isn't as the roping required in WxW doesn't vary in style nor difficulty to the one shown in Roper/RR.
Plasma, I am not going to spoon feed you.

evilworm2
3 Oct 2006, 19:51
Lol. This is really a lol thread.
People have their oppinions about their games and other pople's oppinion differ from people's oppinion.
Worms is about fun, fun and fun.
I can't stand people who say:
Shoppers sucks, w2w sucks, rope race sucks, BnA sucks, Holy War sucks, <insert your favourite game here> sucks.
This is a proof of the lacking ability to broaden one's mind.

yakuza
3 Oct 2006, 19:59
How did it even float my mind that this would of been a cool debate is now beyond me. And it's not because it doesn't have potential.

Run
3 Oct 2006, 20:34
This is me on this thread: http://www.nanacide.com/images/Emoticons/colbert.gif

franpa
4 Oct 2006, 00:55
uh yakuza... dogma is a mapper that makes many maps and mario is a category.
You are very wrong.
Some Schemes I can think of on the spot:
Normal - General Worm skills. Strategy and Weapon ability.
Roper - Focuses on your ability to rope well and drop mines, nades and bazookas well.
Shopper - Focuses less on your roping ability, but places greater emphasis on your ability to use many different weapons effeciently and has a greater strategy element.
BnG - Focuses on your ability to use the bazooka and grenade well.
W2W - Greater emphasis on roping than using weapons than what you find in a shopper game. Less strategy.
RR - Focuses completely on roping ability in tight areas.
Shopper games require skill. The fact you do not need amazing rope skills doesn't mean the game is lacking in a skill requirement. A roper game requires far more roping ability, but doesn't need the same amount of weapon efficiency or creativeness that you get in a shopper game.
The amount of skill is the same, just in different areas.
quoted due to how accurate this is and how I see things aswell.

yakuza
4 Oct 2006, 12:31
uh yakuza... dogma is a mapper that makes many maps and mario is a category.
quoted due to how accurate this is and how I see things aswell.
Dogma as in Dogma City map and Mario as in um... the Mario shopper map with the zepelin flying boats thing...

Lyndon
4 Oct 2006, 15:29
Roping games arent strategic nor do they require much skill anyways. Not worth the argument

Etho
4 Oct 2006, 16:13
Roping games arent strategic nor do they require much skill anyways.
You shouldn't make statements like that when you are unfamiliar with stratigies involved in 2v2 and 3v3 roper games.

Alien King
4 Oct 2006, 16:31
Roping games arent strategic nor do they require much skill anyways.
How much of the thread have you read? You are completely wrong.

Run
4 Oct 2006, 16:52
Roping games arent strategic nor do they require much skill anyways.
hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah

Evil Bunny
4 Oct 2006, 18:12
Roping games arent strategic nor do they require much skill anyways. Not worth the argument
Amen brother! Amen! Wesa peoples knows that fullwormage is the only real sceme out theres!

Piezack
4 Oct 2006, 19:02
Time to buy a new game maybe? Whining about people being "newbies" and playing "newbie schemes" when they're just having fun is stupid.

yakuza
4 Oct 2006, 19:09
Noone is whining, why are you all going into defensive mode though?

tehceech
4 Oct 2006, 20:20
Meh same roper fags, different rope game.
You ought to try a mans game, crappycr8s. That's where all the hot hot barely legal oldskool rope action is at.
Roping games arent strategic nor do they require much skill anyways. Not worth the argument
In the same way that bng is just throwing stuff or team17 is just picking up stuff or elite is just doing stuff in less time that you do stuff in intermediate.

Vader
4 Oct 2006, 20:49
There are two things in life: SheepBnG and ignorance.
Roping can be fun but I find no matter what the variant, it's all a bit... rope-heavy.
Yeah, fair enough, you think WxW is noobish. I don't really understand why it's more noobish than any other rope scheme; it seemed to me that your first post was more of a 'WxW sucks' rant which is fine but doesn't really clarify the details to me. I don't really care about them either, the point being that roping is roping. One game, to me, seems just as strategical as the next. It's just that different strategies need to be employed and the same is true across the board.
I mean, I can't think of a single scheme which requires zero strategy or skill. There's nothing wrong with any scheme, it just depends on what flavour you would prefer at the time.
Of course, some schemes will be easier to play than others and that, again, is entirely subjective. Someone who is more proficient in games with very short turn times, limited weapons, precision shots et al will have an easier time beating someone who only plays Full Wormage.
I don't get this thread; there's no real discussion to be had.

Evil Bunny
4 Oct 2006, 21:40
I mean, I can't think of a single scheme which requires zero strategy or skill.
I can. Commet dodge? Russian roulet?

Vader
4 Oct 2006, 22:44
I'm not familiar with those schemes but from the sounds of it there's an element of evasive skills involved.

Alien King
4 Oct 2006, 22:47
I'm not familiar with those schemes but from the sounds of it there's an element of evasive skills involved.
Comet dodge is what it sounds like. Skill would probably help in that one.

Plutonic
4 Oct 2006, 22:58
The skill in comet dodge is minimal - its not realy all the possible to actually dodge anything - its more like luck if you make it or not - although some jetpacks skills are neccessary.... not that much realy.

Vader
4 Oct 2006, 23:16
Then my point stands.

Mablak
5 Oct 2006, 02:01
Russian roulette is the scheme of champions

franpa
5 Oct 2006, 04:08
new scheme "boring" has been born by me....
player starting health = 1
weapons availible = banana
weapon cluster amount # = 500
weapon cluster damage = 200
weapon damage = 200
terrain = 1 long thin destructible piece of land
---
enjoy.

Mablak
5 Oct 2006, 06:21
The twist is you're not allowed to use bananas

Evil Bunny
5 Oct 2006, 18:18
Commet dodge doesn't take skill at all. You are set on a map of floating pixels and you have 1 worm which can actually jump up, if something's comin u can do that, if it hits yer pixel you're done for, once in the air, you're done for. THe rest of yer team is left to taith because they're not moving, and in your opponent's turn you're screwed either way. No my friend, commet dodge has no skill to it. I could practice for a year non stop and would have about 50% of beating a 2-yo at it who doesn't know the keys.
As for russian roulette. It's a game where worms are standing on pixels in a half circle, spaced appart a little, you click a oming above the half circle, fire it, have it twist about and spin out of orbit eventually, hittin some1 at random. It's funny for about 1 game. Mybe 3 if yer very drunk.
Edit: This commet dodge btw should not be confused with the jetpack version, where you actually are able to dodge them if you pay close attention.

D3v1L
6 Oct 2006, 04:13
Edit: This commet dodge btw should not be confused with the jetpack version, where you actually are able to dodge them if you pay close attention.
so, how do u call the jetpack version?
that one is pretty cool and funny... and it do takes a little skills on using the jetpack and moving the mousse at the same time... :p

evilworm2
6 Oct 2006, 15:07
...and it do takes a little skills on using the jetpack and moving the mousse at the same time... :p
I never moved my mousse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mousse). ;)

D3v1L
6 Oct 2006, 15:25
I never moved my mousse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mousse). ;)
really? didnt u ever eat a mousse and play worms at the same time? u have to move it and eat it while u fly, u do need skills to do that :p
well, excuse me, it was mouse... but i speak spanish... :-/ i want to c u trying to say that in spanish...
"Se requieren muchas hablidades para volar con el jetpack y mover la torta al mismo tiempo..."
hehe

CyberShadow
6 Oct 2006, 16:17
hablidadesDid you mean (http://www.google.com/search?q=hablidades): habilidades?
http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr?doit=done&intl=1&tt=urltext&trtext=Se+requieren+muchas+habilidades+para+volar+ con+el+jetpack+y+mover+la+torta+al+mismo+tiempo...&lp=es_en
Looks pretty comprehensible to me.

Evil Bunny
6 Oct 2006, 19:06
so, how do u call the jetpack version?
WELL.... commet dodge with jetpack :D Or CDWJ, as it says on the map. I know it lacks a name that people would actually be able to remember.

Plasma
10 Oct 2006, 21:51
Commet dodge doesn't take skill at all. You are set on a map of floating pixels and you have 1 worm which can actually jump up, if something's comin u can do that, if it hits yer pixel you're done for, once in the air, you're done for. THe rest of yer team is left to taith because they're not moving, and in your opponent's turn you're screwed either way. No my friend, commet dodge has no skill to it. I could practice for a year non stop and would have about 50% of beating a 2-yo at it who doesn't know the keys.
What? Of course it takes skill! You only have one turn to create a time machine and predict the future!

Evil Bunny
10 Oct 2006, 22:15
What? Of course it takes skill! You only have one turn to create a time machine and predict the future!
Yeah, but i haven't seen anyone do that yet. Besides, how is knowing the future going to help you, you don't have wormplacement and arma's gonna come anyway.

Run
10 Oct 2006, 22:33
Yeah, but i haven't seen anyone do that yet. Besides, how is knowing the future going to help you, you don't have wormplacement and arma's gonna come anyway.
You could foresee who's going to win, and then conveniently "lag out" if it isn't you.

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