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Joeyjoejoe
9 Feb 2007, 02:43
Does anyone know how to connect to Worms Armageddon (Worms on GameSurge or whatever it is) using the IRC client ChatZilla?

Lex
9 Feb 2007, 06:01
I believe you have a misconception. The channel on GameSurge called #worms is not a Worms Armageddon WormNET channel, but rather, a community-created channel for discussion.
In ChatZilla, try typing "/server irc.gamesurge.net:6667", then when you're connected, type "/join #worms".

Joeyjoejoe
9 Feb 2007, 06:22
Ahh ok thanks heaps anyway.
Is there anyway to connect to Wormnet?

Lex
9 Feb 2007, 06:36
Yes. I'll tell you when you're older.

Joeyjoejoe
9 Feb 2007, 06:38
Hehehe. ;)

Koen-ftw
9 Feb 2007, 15:13
Lex tells you when you're older. I'll PM you it right now.

yakuza
9 Feb 2007, 18:31
According to Etho you shouldn't tell anyone, you see, he thinks Snoopers are kept private source because of the harm an evil doer would be able to do with the source! You're putting the community in a risk by letting people know how to do it! They might start programming evil IP storing bots and god knows what more! I'm "surprised" no one has yet abused this to do so much harm! Or maybe, just maybe, they're bull ****ting us all.
Oh, that happens to be one of the arguments against free source worms too!

Koen-ftw
9 Feb 2007, 18:49
According to Etho you shouldn't tell anyone, you see, he thinks Snoopers are kept private source because of the harm an evil doer would be able to do with the source! You're putting the community in a risk by letting people know how to do it! They might start programming evil IP storing bots and god knows what more! I'm "surprised" no one has yet abused this to do so much harm! Or maybe, just maybe, they're bull ****ting us all.
Oh, that happens to be one of the arguments against free source worms too!
You've got a point there. I trust JoeyJoeJoe with the way to do it, since he's a regular poster and doesn't seem to mean any harm - and I also told him not to leak it out more. I'll keep it private then, now.

Etho
9 Feb 2007, 19:06
They might start programming evil IP storing bots and god knows what more! I'm "surprised" no one has yet abused this to do so much harm! Or maybe, just maybe, they're bull ****ting us all.
It could just be that the best interests of the community are considered when making such decisions. It's truely amazing what you can slap together in 15 minutes. I stand firm in my belief that any open-sourced WormNet program is a bad idea.
http://etho.wormsrenegade.com/screenshots/yakuza.png
And, unless ChatZilla is an open-source program, I fail to see the point why you needed to bring my opinions into this.

bonz
9 Feb 2007, 19:09
Oh, that happens to be one of the arguments against free source worms too!
The reason why none of the second generation Worms games (W2, W:A, WWP) are going to be open source is because multiple 3rd party programmers have contributed back in the day.
You've got a point there. I trust JoeyJoeJoe with the way to do it, since he's a regular poster and doesn't seem to mean any harm - and I also told him not to leak it out more. I'll keep it private then, now.
Yakuza obviously used invisible sarcasm tags... :rolleyes:

Koen-ftw
9 Feb 2007, 19:29
Yakuza obviously used invisible sarcasm tags... :rolleyes:
Indeed, and I saw most of them, but he still has a point. I was too lazy to make a quote and leave only the true stuff in. :p
Edit: Rereading the post, it was Etho (according to the post) that had a point, not yakuza. My poor English and lack of eyesight is messing with me - again.

yakuza
9 Feb 2007, 19:34
I know bonz that is the main reason, but people who have access to the alpha patches seem to think there is actually this other reason, that people can't be trusted because they're evil. Probably helps them feel special because they where awarded this trust and think they are good and nice people, which seeing how it got leaked I can't help it but LOL. Every single time someone comes up with the topic of freeing the code there's always someone from SfX or an alpha tester, oops wait same thing, coming up trying to convince us that it's not free because it would ruin the community, and I'm tired of this crap, so stick to bonz's answer PLEASE.
Also Etho, I was just ilustrating a point. You fall in the first parraf too, you claim the source in the wrong hands could do bad and you gave the snooper example if I recall correctly with the IP storing bots and stuff. Taking into account WA has been accesible by mIRC for years and years, and that those bots are easily downloaded from the net then it must be something really wrong in your theory.
Worms communtiy has already been bullsheetd enough since 2001, and at least, back in the day it was Team17 doing it, now it's some people that think they've got the responsability to guide this community to the light.

Muzer
9 Feb 2007, 19:57
What is that wormnet password thing? It would be really good if I could access it from Miranda IM!
Oh, and I added a Miranda IM entry to the joining #worms page of cybershadow's wiki.

bonz
9 Feb 2007, 20:20
I know bonz that is the main reason, but people who have access to the alpha patches seem to think there is actually this other reason, that people can't be trusted because they're evil. Probably helps them feel special because they where awarded this trust and think they are good and nice people, which seeing how it got leaked I can't help it but LOL. Every single time someone comes up with the topic of freeing the code there's always someone from SfX or an alpha tester, oops wait same thing, coming up trying to convince us that it's not free because it would ruin the community, and I'm tired of this crap, so stick to bonz's answer PLEASE.
Funnily enough, the one that leaked the alpha was not invited to the secret society. He got it exceptionally.
BTW, it was Spadge that wrote somewhere that they can't make the game open source, because of 3rd party programmers.
Worms communtiy has already been bullsheetd enough since 2001, and at least, back in the day it was Team17 doing it, now it's some people that think they've got the responsability to guide this community to the light.
Ehrm, it was Team17 that gave the source code to Deadcode and Cybershadow.

CyberShadow
9 Feb 2007, 20:21
I know bonz that is the main reason, but people who have access to the alpha patches seem to think there is actually this other reason, that people can't be trusted because they're evil.
No idea where you're coming with this from.
Probably helps them feel special because they where awarded this trust and think they are good and nice people, which seeing how it got leaked I can't help it but LOL.
Care to share the lulz? Because, knowing how/why exactly it got leaked, I don't see absolutely nothing funny in it. It's most likely not how you think it happened. Stuff like that happens, we just deal with it.
Every single time someone comes up with the topic of freeing the code there's always someone from SfX or an alpha tester, oops wait same thing,
So whose fault is it that SfX has skilled and responsible people?
coming up trying to convince us that it's not free because it would ruin the community, and I'm tired of this crap,
Why didn't you reply in the thread where I explained why we're doing closed alpha testing? Instead, you go off complaining in other random threads. If you want, I'll explain once more why we went this way. But I hope you'll spare me the time, and read the relevant thread (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31403) before coming up with more unargumented, empty complaints.
Also, see this old thread (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30266) with some discussion about the implications of open-sourcing the game.
Also Etho, I was just ilustrating a point. You fall in the first parraf too, you claim the source in the wrong hands could do bad and you gave the snooper example if I recall correctly with the IP storing bots and stuff. Taking into account WA has been accesible by mIRC for years and years, and that those bots are easily downloaded from the net then it must be something really wrong in your theory.
They say that evil cannot create. Indeed, many malevolent individuals quickly get bored, depending on the amount of work needed to be done. If you're smart enough to find how to connect to WormNET using an IRC client, good for you. If you choose to release this information, fine - although it'll help people with noble intentions, it'll also help people with not-so-noble ones.
Anyway, this isn't a really good example of information which shouldn't be available for anyone. Perhaps a more practical one is our decision to close-source HostingBuddy. The reason behind that is that the network packet code was implemented in such a flexible manner, that someone could write a malicious join-game-flooder (or something worse) in a matter of minutes, with the source at hand. If that were to happen, there wouldn't be much we (the developers) could do, but to either keep banning the malefactor until he runs out of proxies, or to urgently issue a mandatory update with a change of the network protocol.
If you still disagree, bring forth your arguments.
As for Lex's decision, I'm not going to argue it, but I feel it would have been the same, were Lex an alpha tester or not.
I'd also like to quote something from the WormNET IRC MotD:
Absolutely no bots or scripts allowed on this network.
Anyone using a non-authorized client to connect to this
network will have their IP temporarily banned.
Worms communtiy has already been bullsheetd enough since 2001, and at least, back in the day it was Team17 doing it, now it's some people that think they've got the responsability to guide this community to the light.
We'd love to hear your suggestions then, and your arguments as to why would they make things better.
I hope this entire post wasn't written out of simple angst that you were "left out", or something as childish as that.

Etho
9 Feb 2007, 20:55
WormNet1 has no security beyond an easily accessible password that many already know. This password is becoming increasingly well known as more and more players are told how to connect to WormNet1 using an external IRC client.
Any one person is capable of bringing down WormNet1. How? I'm not going to say because that might fuel the evil. WormNet2 is no different. The only advantage WormNet2 has is its improved security. Currently, I am the only one who has gotten around that added security; and I plan to keep it that way by not sharing my snooper source-code.
Making Worms open-sourced opens the doors for much much greater evils. Let's keep them shut.

Muzer
9 Feb 2007, 21:00
So I assume no-one's gonna tell it to me. A google for wormnet pasword weilded no results :(. So it can't be that well-known.
The only reason why I want it is so I can chat on Miranda. No other reason. Really. I mean it.

yakuza
9 Feb 2007, 21:04
to cybershadow
Why are you picking on the little things?
All I'm saying is that you and a couple of others have tried to convince us that open source worms would be bad in the long term, because of evil hacking little gnomes that believe it or not exist in every single community, even open source game ones that are still alive! alive!?
I also pointed out that those that are always defending the cause and using this argument against open source are those who have access to the alpha, coincidence or not is not for me to decide I'm just stating it.
So I just suggested that you and co should stick to saying that free source won't happen because Team17 are too busy to ask titus, micropose or whoever if they give a .... about WA being relased free code instead of trying to convince us that it would be bad for the community, because you haven't convinced me yet you have the judgement or experience to predict WA's future, and I'm not alone, most of the average joe community members (alpha testers excluded), with a certain amount of years invested into the game, haven't been convinced either , specially when free source has proven to be succesful in many other games and I'm yet to hear an example that supports yours and the alpha crew views of open source=death.
Also god help us if someone creates a join game flooder and the hoster has to click on his name to boot him.

yakuza
9 Feb 2007, 21:12
So I assume no-one's gonna tell it to me. A google for wormnet pasword weilded no results :(. So it can't be that well-known.
The only reason why I want it is so I can chat on Miranda. No other reason. Really. I mean it.
Are you crazy? With the password in hand you could code a malicious device that kills kittens over the internet.

CyberShadow
9 Feb 2007, 21:13
Why are you picking on the little things?Why do you?
All I'm saying is that you and a couple of others have tried to convince us that open source worms would be bad in the long term, because of evil hacking little gnomes that believe it or not exist in every single community, even open source game ones that are still alive! alive!?
Show some examples of open-source games in the same genre which are at least nearly as popular as Worms.
"Alive" doesn't automatically bring a game to the status of W:A's community.
Here's a question: are you looking at the problem from the eyes of the consumer (gamer) or manufacturer (developer)?
I also pointed out that those that are always defending the cause and using this argument against open source are those who have access to the alpha, coincidence or not is not for me to decide I'm just stating it.
It's most likely not a coincidence, given that most of the alpha-testers are actual programmers, and understand how software development works.
So I just suggested that you and co should stick to saying that free source won't happen because Team17 are too busy to ask titus, micropose or whoever if they give a .... about WA being relased free code instead of trying to convince us that it would be bad for the community, because you haven't convinced me yet you have the judgement to do know, specially when free source has proven to be succesful in many other games and I'm yet to hear an example that supports yours and the alpha crew views of open source=death.
Perhaps the lack of examples is your proof? I haven't seen a lot of successful open-source games in W:A's genre...
=== Edit ===
Some more thoughts:
Even if the game were made open-source, show me some programmers who would be able to actually improve the game in a rational fashion. We've been looking for programmers like that for some time now... It's not excluded that Team17 might allow additions to the W:A dev team if they show a good amount of skill and dedication.
Also:
While the main problem, cheating, could be countered by using a closed-source security module, as it's done with iD's Quake games, this would greatly improve the efforts required to develop/maintain the game. Managing an open-source project is much harder than managing a closed-source one.

yakuza
9 Feb 2007, 21:23
Why would I need to provide an example? I'm not going around trying to convince people that free source would be good. Is that your counter argument? You can't find an example that proves your point so you ask me to find one? Could you give me an example of a game, ANY GAME, that has been ruined due to becoming open source?
Last time I played Liero or one of it's many clones which allow online play I didn't encounter any hacker. Happy?
You know, I'm not saying free source would bring problems, but the advantages highly surpass the disadvantages, unless I was in your position because I'd have to fix things once in a while and I wouldn't have the exclusivity of being ass licked anymore (and that's just how I would feel not saying you would).
----
if the game became free source the user base would highly increase and this would bring programmers, also the fact that is free source would bring programmers by itself.

CyberShadow
9 Feb 2007, 21:30
I'm not going around trying to convince people that free source would be good.Well, if you don't have any more objections, this argument is over. The point here isn't for us to show you how good/bad our decisions are, but for you to show us alternatives to our decisions and why would they improve the state of the game and the community.
And... Liero isn't really in W:A's genre (it's a real-time 2D shoot-em-up, and not a 2D turn-based action/strategy like W:A). Last time I checked, Liero didn't have leagues, replays, mission records, etc. - it's more of an ad-hoc community. In Liero's case, obvious hacking attempts are countered directly by kicking the hacker from the game - while the more subtle ones won't even be noticeable. How would any of this fit with W:A's leagues, offline tournaments, etc.?

yakuza
9 Feb 2007, 21:37
I'm sorry, I don't know of an EXACT CLONE of W:A that exists freesource, not even retail (other than WWP but that doesn't have replays so), so I can't really answer what you're asking me to.
You make such a big deal about cheaters, when Team17 still cared about this game they dealt with them, I don't know how hard it is for you guys to prevent cheating, but if you're not able to then who am I to say someone else could.
So we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You lack examples, experiences that support your crystal future ball theory, and I believe that free source would do much more good than bad, you talk from the prespective of someone that knows the code, I'm talking from the prespective of someone that knows the community.
add:
And I know cheaters do exist and do ruin things. But when you tell me they would ruin things it just reminds me of 2001-2002 the time in which team17 broke about 10 promises in a row, telling us that it wasn't secure to bring back ranks because they where... insecure. Sure there where mickey mouse cheaters that used to computers to lose to himself, not a big deal, they bought it down due to Kufner hacking it or whatever, never bought it back because apparently it was insestable. WA had around double the userbase back then, and it took 2 years for a real hacker to do what seems to be irreversible damage till this date, why not just copy and paste the code so we can enjoy ourselves 2 more years?

bonz
9 Feb 2007, 21:58
Yakuza, read this thread. Especially what Spadge has to say.
That should bring an end to this W:A open source discussion once and for all.
http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23054

CyberShadow
9 Feb 2007, 22:06
yakuza: I could say the same about your "crystal future ball theory" of making W:A open-source (you lack the same examples and experiences to prove your point). Thus, strictly-speaking, we don't know what would be better for the community - but even if it were possible (see bonz's post above), it would be an 1) irreversible decision requiring a ton of thinking 2) would cause us a lot of hassle for a gain we cannot be sure of.
Also, sadly, this isn't year 2000 any more. What could have been 2 years back then can be 2 weeks nowadays.
The only thing I can say in favor of this argument is that 4.0 will be accompanied by a rewritten-from-ground-up WormNET system, designed with security in mind.

yakuza
9 Feb 2007, 22:13
My theory is not so much crystal ball'ish, as the freed of the code as I understand it has been benefitial in all the games I know that have used that policy and am still waiting for an example that counters my argument, I know you think this is not a flawless proof, but for me and others is one heck of a proof.
All in all I just wanted to say that I found funny that those who have publicly stated that free code W:A would literally kill the game are those who have access to the alphas. And yes, it could be due to them being skilled programmers (then again, I thought you where looking for those?¿), or it might not. And I've also seen skilled programmers defend the freed of the code, but yeah, they have no alpha access :rolleyes:
i'm off, good luck with the betas

bonz
9 Feb 2007, 22:29
My theory is not so much crystal ball'ish, as the freed of the code as I understand it has been benefitial in all the games I know that have used that policy and am still waiting for an example that counters my argument, I know you think this is not a flawless proof, but for me and others is one heck of a proof.
Have you actually read what Spadge wrote?
Until someone at Team17 miraculously finds all the individual 3rd party programmers from back then and gets their permission (not to speak of all the various old publishers, whose copyrights are still owned by some other companies that bought them up, and recent publishers like Trygames or Sold-Out, who still sell the game) open sourcing the game is out of the question.
All in all I just wanted to say that I found funny that those who have publicly stated that free code W:A would literally kill the game are those who have access to the alphas. And yes, it could be due to them being skilled programmers (then again, I thought you where looking for those?¿), or it might not. And I've also seen skilled programmers defend the freed of the code, but yeah, they have no alpha access :rolleyes:
What do you think can someone with alpha access actually do, other than play games with the same handful of people and hunt for bugs? If you play online, it'll emulate the oldest version anyway... :rolleyes:
Besides, I have never said anything against the principle of open source.
But considering how the hacking/cheating back in 2000 affected the game, I'd rather see it closed.
I don't want to see something like that happen again, more so as I only started playing W:A online a few months after the ranking has been disabled.

MadEwokHerd
9 Feb 2007, 22:35
I have economics to thank for making this kind of answer possible: I think you are both correct.
WA as it exists now is very insecure. I only know about the problems with the part of WA's wormnet outside the hosting lobby, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are ways to make WA execute code if you're connected to a game. It wouldn't surprise me one bit. And if I wanted to find this sort of thing I know exactly how I'd do it: use the source code to construct lots of broken messages and find one that crashes WA. Then debug the crash and see if it's executing something it got from you as code. And after that you can gain unauthorized access to the computers of everyone on wormnet. That's just one way (I can think of a few) releasing the source would be disruptive or outright dangerous. But only in the short term.
But in the long term I think it'd be beneficial. People would fix these problems and come up with something better. When does "short term" end and "long term" begin? I have no clue.
It's not a decision to be taken lightly, and I think it'd be prudent to take down WormNET first (probably forever) just to deal with the one danger I mentioned. Maybe also disable all networking in the source (and most recent binary) release by default. Not that it matters, since licensing issues prevent team17 from releasing the source.

franpa
10 Feb 2007, 00:32
My theory is not so much crystal ball'ish, as the freed of the code as I understand it has been benefitial in all the games I know that have used that policy and am still waiting for an example that counters my argument, I know you think this is not a flawless proof, but for me and others is one heck of a proof.
All in all I just wanted to say that I found funny that those who have publicly stated that free code W:A would literally kill the game are those who have access to the alphas. And yes, it could be due to them being skilled programmers (then again, I thought you where looking for those?¿), or it might not. And I've also seen skilled programmers defend the freed of the code, but yeah, they have no alpha access :rolleyes:
i'm off, good luck with the betas
there are more people doing bad stuff in the world of computers then good stuff... virus scanner software companies are fighting a losing battle and look at how much adware/spam/viruses there are available to infect people..... look at how many people come online and spam the crap out of wormnet or act retarded like blitza has done (and maybe still is retarded... i dunno) the number of people willing to help anything is always countered by the number of people willing to do harm... it just might for some things, take more time for evil to win... but it always does.
look at warcraft 3... they keep releasing updates for it because people keep hacking it... eventually money will run out and it wont get any more updates... if it goes open source (due to lack of funds to fund private development) then the hackers will have a party like you've never seen before.

bonz
10 Feb 2007, 00:59
there are more people doing bad stuff in the world of computers then good stuff... virus scanner software companies are fighting a losing battle and look at how much adware/spam/viruses there are available to infect people..... look at how many people come online and spam the crap out of wormnet or act retarded like blitza has done (and maybe still is retarded... i dunno) the number of people willing to help anything is always countered by the number of people willing to do harm... it just might for some things, take more time for evil to win... but it always does.
look at warcraft 3... they keep releasing updates for it because people keep hacking it... eventually money will run out and it wont get any more updates... if it goes open source (due to lack of funds to fund private development) then the hackers will have a party like you've never seen before.
Seconded .

KRD
10 Feb 2007, 01:12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open_source_games
A very brief glance at the list left me cold. I don't recognise much more than the Civa and the Transport Tycoon, which are both clones of ancient games.
Not sure whether the two have online multiplayer or not, but even if they do, I don't imagine it being anywhere near as competitive as WormNet1 has been and is. Can't imagine either of those communities having a history of cheating as vast and, sadly, effective as the second generation Worms games do, either.
But yah, I don't think I want to be in this thread. Bye.

franpa
10 Feb 2007, 02:21
Seconded .
zomg!!! the worlds gone mad! how can you (bonz) agree with me?

bonz
10 Feb 2007, 02:55
zomg!!! the worlds gone mad! how can you (bonz) agree with me?
Well, the constant franpa alerts seem to have borne fruit.

yakuza
10 Feb 2007, 13:15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open_source_games
A very brief glance at the list left me cold. I don't recognise much more than the Civa and the Transport Tycoon, which are both clones of ancient games.
Not sure whether the two have online multiplayer or not, but even if they do, I don't imagine it being anywhere near as competitive as WormNet1 has been and is. Can't imagine either of those communities having a history of cheating as vast and, sadly, effective as the second generation Worms games do, either.
But yah, I don't think I want to be in this thread. Bye.
A quick glance at the list and there's two games I've played in the past, Cube and CodeRED, both more active than WA in their multiplayer ambit (when I played them) and I met a total of 0 cheaters, you may say I just didn't notice them, though.
I think people tend to over react to cheaters, has there really been any big cheaters in worms that actually had an impact on the enjoyment of other people? Besides RopingRaja (MrRaja) and arguably Mre I can't really think of other examples, and even if they cheat i still sleep, I still enjoy myself as much, unless you consider the ranking days where people used two computers to lose against himself, but there's nothing you can really do against that.
I don't know how much it costs to have anti cheating software, but games that are much more in the spotlight like Gunbound (:>), Gunz or whatever are able to counter cheaters to a big extent, would it affect these two games mentioned if they became free source? Do cheaters really have an advantage when cheating in free source taking into account the game has anti cheating software like GameGuard or the such?
The ease that the engine brought to mapping help create a community dedicated to improving the game. This was shown though the many user created maps and mods that followed the game. Examples are the partial conversion Death Illustrated, the total conversion ActionCube[1] and the add-on mod pCube[2].
Alien Arena has a community based on the servers, in the COR Forums and the #alienarena IRC channel on EFnet IRC where there are always people to help with problems, answer questions, and just chat with. There are active clans playing in the game, as well as periodic official Cups, Ladders, and Free For All matches. Player stats are globally tracked and can be accessed with the Galaxy client or via the game's homepage.

CyberShadow
10 Feb 2007, 19:46
Ok, let's see here...
ClanBomber, Enigma (very nice time killer), FreeCiv (clone), Frozen Bubble, Gusanos (I remember actually helping with development with this game), Moria (Angband ancestor), NetHack (THE open-source rogue-like), NeverBall, Pingus, Rocks'n'Diamonds (Supaplex clone), Rogue, Slash'EM (NetHack fork), SuperTux. These are the games from that list which I played and know.
However, none really scale up to W:A's level. NetHack/Slash'EM probably has the biggest source, but they're offline games. You can't cheat much in FreeCiv-like games anyway... unless it's map uncovering cheats (which can't be detected for sure).
Probably the closest game to W:A from the list is Gusanos. So, I went ahead and pulled out its source code from CVS and compared it to W:A's... it was 7 times smaller than W:As. If you think that isn't a lot, think about it again: all the source code Gusanos has, all the effort put into that game, W:A has that, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.
There's also Wormux (not in that list), but that game is so early in development (barely has any network support), it doesn't count as well.
Cube and CodeRED, both more active than WA in their multiplayer ambit
Numbers. I want numbers! Without them your statement is useless. Ask a number of random persons - of which game have they heard of, between Cube/CodeRED or W:A? I'm pretty sure we all know what the results will be.

yakuza
10 Feb 2007, 20:10
I logged on to CodeRED AlienArena are there where 42 players online. I'm sure you can check server status online, somewhere... Also it was more active when I last logged on, almost a year ago.
They also hold (as far as I'm concerned) tournaments every single sunday, have online ladder rankings, on both clan and singles and overlooking their official forums I saw nothing about cheating, although there probably are a thread or two around it doesn't seem as a big issue as you're trying to convince me it would be.

CyberShadow
10 Feb 2007, 20:14
I logged on to CodeRED AlienArena are there where 42 players online. I'm sure you can check server status online, somewhere... Also it was more active when I last logged on, almost a year ago.
There's quite a big misconception about the number of players "online" in W:A. Most people just hop on to WormNET and look at the number of people there. However, please take into account the number of games happening simultaneously - once people join the game, they leave the channel. Take the number of hosted games per minute, multiply that to the mean number of players per game and the mean time a game takes (including "rematch" rounds), and you have a more comparable number.
They also hold (as far as I'm concerned) tournaments every single sunday, have online ladder rankings, on both clan and singles and overlooking their official forums I saw nothing about cheating, although there probably are a thread or two around it doesn't seem as a big issue as you're trying to convince me it is.
Please don't compare the communities from an FPS genre and a turn-based strategy. We have cheating problems as it is now (people have been submitting xSpeeded replays to offline tournaments until measures have been implemented to counter that).

yakuza
10 Feb 2007, 20:20
So you're telling me W:A's genre has more potential flaws cheaters can exploit than a FPS game?
Also I was counting the players in lobby, you also have to bare in mind there where games hosted.

MadEwokHerd
10 Feb 2007, 20:49
As far as I'm concerned, a game in W:A's genre can be much better-equipped to handle cheating than any realtime game. In a turn-based game, each computer could run the game using pretty much the input from the user. If a player "breaks the rules" somehow, what happens on his computer becomes different from what happens everywhere else, causing a desync. In a realtime game like an FPS, however, you probably can't get everyone's input to everyone's computer so that everyone can run the game with the same rules without lag (I've been told you can get away with about a 50 ms delay). So they rely on shortcuts, with each player's computer doing some calculations locally that no one else ever sees and that might be..well..jimmied.
But I think CS defines cheating differently. For him, "cheating" would include using tools that help you do better within the rules of the game (like, say, an aiming tool that makes your bazooka shots for you). That kind of cheating cannot be stopped in a game where everyone can not only see the source but also modify it and build a fully-working copy from the modified source. I tend to think it's a wasted effort to try to stop that kind of cheating anyway.

CyberShadow
10 Feb 2007, 20:56
So you're telling me W:A's genre has more potential flaws cheaters can exploit than a FPS game?
What do you mean by "flaws"? Cheating in a computer game usually implies using auxiliary tools or game modifications which give their user an unfair advantage. If you define "flaw" not as something technical which eases cheating, but how easy it is to ruin a game with cheats, then yes - W:A is much more sensitive to cheating.
I was going to edit this in the previous post, but you replied before I got to do this:
Once again, we are putting up games from different genres. It's not only just that FPS is a much more popular genre than turn-based action/strategy by itself, but I don't see how making the game open-source would bring all this generic goodness to W:A. Frankly, I don't expect that as soon as the game code would be opened, all these brilliant programmers start flowing in from everywhere doing wonders to the code. I don't see that happening - do you?
Edit: just out of curiosity, I downloaded the source code to CodeRED: AlienArena - which is basically a modified version of the Quake 3 engine. It's still at least twice as smaller as W:A's source code. And that's something.
Edit regarding madewokherd's post: yes, that's what I had in mind... for an FPS game, the comparison would be between client-side cheats like see-through-walls or auto-aiming aimbots, or cheats messing with the actual messages (going through walls or flying around the map, which is impossible to do in a W:A network game).

Joeyjoejoe
11 Feb 2007, 03:42
You've got a point there. I trust JoeyJoeJoe with the way to do it, since he's a regular poster and doesn't seem to mean any harm - and I also told him not to leak it out more. I'll keep it private then, now.
:D Thanks. Also I'd like to say I can't hack servers and stuff like that, I'm 13 and I wouldn't have a clue how!

Joeyjoejoe
11 Feb 2007, 08:30
WTF? The password to enter Wormnet on IRC doesn't work anymore!
EDIT: It seems that the server is down because I can't go online through the game either.

Muzer
11 Feb 2007, 09:01
Aw, I'm a frequent poster and all that, and I'm only 12, and my sole intention is to use wormnet with miranda IM... why can't I have it?

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