are there superweapons in worms xbla ?? [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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qwertz
3 Mar 2007, 08:55
there are still crates that contain weapons like the supersheep, the banana bomb and other stuff right ?? :eek:

Vercetti
3 Mar 2007, 10:03
Full list of weapons/utilities:
Bazooka, Homing Missile, Grenade, Cluster Bomb, Banana Bomb, Dynamite, Air Strike, Shotgun, Uzi, Fire Punch, Dragon Ball, Prod, Blowtorch, Land Mine, Sheep, Kamikaze, Ninja Rope, Girder, Jet Pack, Teleport, Skip Go, Surrender.
No super sheep but there is a banana bomb. Crates only contain the weapons above.

Spadge
3 Mar 2007, 11:54
there are still crates that contain weapons like the supersheep, the banana bomb and other stuff right ?? :eek:
Sheep and Bananas are found in crates (as per the original) - as well as the odd dynamite.

Edwin
3 Mar 2007, 21:37
That's a ton of missing weapons/items!
Missing:
Mortar
Homing Pigeon
Patsy's Magic Bullet
Gas Canister
Sticky Bomb
Mole Bomb - Not to be confused with the mole bomb of Worms: Armageddon and Worms World Party, this weapon is only available in Worms Reinforcements and Worms United. It is a cluster bomb with drill shaped bomblets that can dig through terrain. Explosion power is that of the banana bomb. Due to a bug it was very rare in crates.
Homing Cluster Bomb
Holy Hand Grenade
Super Banana Bomb
Petrol Bomb
Cluster Launcher
Chilli Con Carnage
Fridge Launcher
Trebuchet
Handgun
Sniper Rifle
Sentry Gun
Minigun
Longbow
Poison Arrow
Ballista
Giant Crossbow
Blowpipe
Starburst
Suicide Bomber
Battle Axe
Viking Axe
Tail Nail
Baseball Bat
Mega Mine
Priceless Ming Vase
Sheep Launcher
Super Sheep
Aqua Sheep
Sheep-On-A-Rope
Cloned Sheep
Super Hippo
Mole Bomb
Mad Cow
Rhino
Old Woman
Salvation Army
Skunk
Inflatable Scouser
Bovine Blitz
Homing Strike
Napalm Strike
Mail Strike
Lottery Strike
Mine Strike
Doctor Strike
Animal Strike
Mole Squadron
Carpet Bomb
MB Bomb
French Sheep Strike
Alien Abduction
Concrete Donkey
Trojan Donkey
Fatkins Strike
Earthquake
Scales of Justice
Flood
Nuke
Indian Nuclear Test
Nuclear Strike
Armageddon
Bungee
Parachute
Low Gravity
Crate Spy
Damage × 2
Double Turn Time
Fast Walk
Laser Sight
Select Worm
Crate Shower
Icarus Potion
Bubble Trouble
Invisibility
Freeze
Red Bull
Mystery Crate
Global Warming
Barrel o' Laughs
Medical Insurance
Bring on the Mines
Super Health
Hyperactive
Sick it to Them
Big Guns
Moon Physics
Damage Incoming
Sabotage Inventory
Team Disease
Reposition Worm
Extended Time
Mine Factory
Telepad

Melon
3 Mar 2007, 21:43
Congratulations. You even listed the contents of mystery crates from Worms 4 : Mayhem.
This ISN'T WA or WWP. The weapons were chosen purely for the fact that the inventory woud be small yet strategic, so that people new to the game could be eased into it and not get daunted by 60 weapons to choose from when they open the weapons menu.
Worms on XBLA isn't meant to be the super-duper ultimate version of 2D Worms. It's SUPPOSED to be small and sweet.

Spadge
3 Mar 2007, 21:56
That's a ton of missing weapons/items!
Missing:
Mortar
Homing Pigeon
Patsy's Magic Bullet
Gas Canister
Sticky Bomb
Mole Bomb - Not to be confused with the mole bomb of Worms: Armageddon and Worms World Party, this weapon is only available in Worms Reinforcements and Worms United. It is a cluster bomb with drill shaped bomblets that can dig through terrain. Explosion power is that of the banana bomb. Due to a bug it was very rare in crates.
Homing Cluster Bomb
Holy Hand Grenade
Super Banana Bomb
Petrol Bomb
Cluster Launcher
Chilli Con Carnage
Fridge Launcher
Trebuchet
Handgun
Sniper Rifle
Sentry Gun
Minigun
Longbow
Poison Arrow
Ballista
Giant Crossbow
Blowpipe
Starburst
Suicide Bomber
Battle Axe
Viking Axe
Tail Nail
Baseball Bat
Mega Mine
Priceless Ming Vase
Sheep Launcher
Super Sheep
Aqua Sheep
Sheep-On-A-Rope
Cloned Sheep
Super Hippo
Mole Bomb
Mad Cow
Rhino
Old Woman
Salvation Army
Skunk
Inflatable Scouser
Bovine Blitz
Homing Strike
Napalm Strike
Mail Strike
Lottery Strike
Mine Strike
Doctor Strike
Animal Strike
Mole Squadron
Carpet Bomb
MB Bomb
French Sheep Strike
Alien Abduction
Concrete Donkey
Trojan Donkey
Fatkins Strike
Earthquake
Scales of Justice
Flood
Nuke
Indian Nuclear Test
Nuclear Strike
Armageddon
Bungee
Parachute
Low Gravity
Crate Spy
Damage × 2
Double Turn Time
Fast Walk
Laser Sight
Select Worm
Crate Shower
Icarus Potion
Bubble Trouble
Invisibility
Freeze
Red Bull
Mystery Crate
Global Warming
Barrel o' Laughs
Medical Insurance
Bring on the Mines
Super Health
Hyperactive
Sick it to Them
Big Guns
Moon Physics
Damage Incoming
Sabotage Inventory
Team Disease
Reposition Worm
Extended Time
Mine Factory
Telepad
Yeah, all that lot would make it very comfortable for people new to the series. Are you suggesting that strategic titles like Chess should go for more pieces too? You could even extend this list further by including every possible user weapon you could create with Mayhem! :-/
Additionally, anything with THAT amount of weaponry over online play would take MONTHS and MONTHS and err, MONTHS to test. I guess some people won't be satisfied unless there are 200 weapons and the game is totally imbalanced and over in seconds, where people have no idea what's in a scheme or what strategy to adopt.

Edwin
3 Mar 2007, 22:05
I never said to include them, I just said there is alot missing. Too much reading between the lines. :)

Spadge
3 Mar 2007, 22:26
I never said to include them, I just said there is alot missing. Too much reading between the lines. :)
It's true to say that there are a lot of things that are on that list that are not in the XBLA game, however, it's not to say that they are actually "missing" :-)

quakerworm
3 Mar 2007, 22:38
Are you suggesting that strategic titles like Chess should go for more pieces too?
new chess-16 played on 16x16 board with exciting new pieces such as: canon, royal guard, king's mistress, and arch-duke of e4.
but i think you are reaching a bit when comparing worms to chess. worms is a game of skill with an element of tactics. a game of chess requires you to think several turns ahead. game of worms never requires you to think past your opponent's next turn. the number one priority at all times is to deal maximum damage to the enemy, with some regard to limited availability of some weapons, and all the tactics that go beyond that are secondary. games such as chess get their complexity from the fact that variation in game piece position creates very different game states that have to be treated individually. in a game of worms, small variations in position are irrelevant, and even large variations, most of the time, aren't as important. the game, therefore, picks up a bit in complexity from the terrain variations and the weapon set. i'm not saying that all of the previous weapons contributed to strategy, but i think that wow and xbla versions miss some of the important ones.
consider such weapons as: napalm strike, hhg, and nuclear test. all of these added variations on tactics. a person with hhg will be faced with a choice to attempt to use it from the distance, or keep it until it can be planted from short range. napalm strike forced a very different requirement on the tunnel if you wanted to dig in. nuclear test can turn tables entirely, and just knowing that one can appear in the game will change how the game is played. all these tactical weapon are gone. at the same time, we get a weapon that makes the game a lot less tactical - the jet pack. rope and teleport had their limitations on movement, but with a jet pack any portion of the map can be reached, so you can no longer rely on any form of traps to prevent an enemy from dropping down and planting you a stick of dynamite or a banana bomb. this might actually sound tactical early in the game, but since people usually save it, this usually ruins the 1-on-1 portion of the game entirely. whoever gets the first turn when the situation is down to 1-on-1 wins. that, in turn, causes a rush on the rest of the game, and that just isn't good for tactics.

Spadge
3 Mar 2007, 22:44
Not a conversation I'd choose to have with you, actually.
My point was actually that adding lots of additional pieces wouldn't necessarily make for a more interesting or strategic OR enjoyable game. I wasn't comparing Worms and Chess (why would you, chess has FAR more rigid dynamics of play - enabling it to be read, predicted and calculated by brute force methods).

Grimz13
3 Mar 2007, 22:50
I think im gonna go with Spadge on this one. Making Worms XBLA basic and still including the core mechanics was a great idea. Sure it might not appeal to all the old worm fans but imaging being a fan new to the series and picking up the game only to encounter 100+ weapons. Worms XBLA was made so that it is a pick up and play sort of game. Everyone can understand the games mechanics and not have to worry about mastering tons of weapons.

Edwin
3 Mar 2007, 23:17
It's true to say that there are a lot of things that are on that list that are not in the XBLA game, however, it's not to say that they are actually "missing" :-)
Touché. Forgive my lack of vocabulary as English is not my first language.

quakerworm
4 Mar 2007, 00:04
My point was actually that adding lots of additional pieces wouldn't necessarily make for a more interesting or strategic OR enjoyable game.
and i agree with that part. i'm only pointing out that the current weapon set is far from most strategic, and in the context of using strategy as an argument for cutbacks, it raises questions.

Spadge
4 Mar 2007, 06:27
and i agree with that part. i'm only pointing out that the current weapon set is far from most strategic, and in the context of using strategy as an argument for cutbacks, it raises questions.
Anything anyone will ever say to you will raise questions :)
With most super-weapons crate bound, the strategy that you might get one of them isn't really something you can take into the long game. The set supplied supplies a variety of strategies and promotes skill - based on the core game of the original.

snowblindz
4 Mar 2007, 11:34
"I think im gonna go with Spadge on this one. Making Worms XBLA basic and still including the core mechanics was a great idea. Sure it might not appeal to all the old worm fans but imaging being a fan new to the series and picking up the game only to encounter 100+ weapons. Worms XBLA was made so that it is a pick up and play sort of game. Everyone can understand the games mechanics and not have to worry about mastering tons of weapons."
This is the most nonsensical excuse for not including all the weapons in Worms. Everyone who bought the PC version of worms had to start with a mountain of weapons in the list.. sure it was a bit overwhelming at first but I got use to it and loved every single weapon.. except maybe the mole bomb. Also another point.. what fun are these new people going to have when they get tired of the same old weapons.. ? Newbies graduate to higher levels of play they'll get tired quickly of this small list! Also why alienate Worms veterans and take away the weapons we know and love.. how many people have bought worms over the years? How many NEW people do you expect to get here?! This whole excuse for not including at least what Armageddon had is totally lame and not called for.
A suggestion.. how about a Worms Lite and a Worms Plus.. lite for newbs. "Plus" for people that know what they're doing. And offer plus for free to people who buy or have already bought, Lite. I'm almost certain that if anything you could put an entire set of new game code on live as an update changing the entire game. Or you could just make Lite and Plus a menu option.

Boggy_B
4 Mar 2007, 12:14
Well, I do think it were the normal weapons which made the game fun. The full wormage was fun for a couple of times, untill the CPU used the donkey all the time :P Using superweapons isn't very strategic (as you whipe out the whole enemy team with it without thinking)
Some stuff (like dynamite and ming vase) were very simulair.. I like the way T17 makes the weapons more newbie-friendly so they won't confuse simulair weapons, and also take out some useless ones.
Although I miss the supersheep :( I still hope there's alot of humor in the game (as most of the funny weapons are taken out) so i'm hoping for dutch speaking worms, saying weird things and maybe even a Sci map like in WWP.

Wrathchild
4 Mar 2007, 15:33
There are a few weapons I would like to have seen (I'm sure everyone has at least one they would like), but I can't disagree with the decision. Less weapon choices often make the game more enjoyable for me. Besides, the bazooka, grenade, cluster bomb, shotgun, and ninja rope make up like 95% of my weapon usage. All of the others are fluff as far as I am concerned.

wobag
4 Mar 2007, 16:18
Actually Im quite pleased to see the selection of weapons is better than I expected given what Id heard.
Really the only major surprise for me is the 'Select Worm' option.

Sinistar
4 Mar 2007, 16:58
Based on the weapon selection, is the XBLA Worms essentially a port of the PSP Worms Open Warfare?
Why not just name the XBLA version Worms Open Warfare then? :)

Morberis
4 Mar 2007, 19:32
If you wouldn't mind I think I'm going to post the missing weapons in that FAQ thread, and pm the creator so he might be able to add them into the top of it. That is unless you have any objections.

WildDog9
5 Mar 2007, 01:40
Wait, I didn't read there was kamikaze! Yes, my dream has now been fufilled. I thought kamikaze was taken out. I love you Team17.

delusional
6 Mar 2007, 21:57
Originally Posted by Spadge View Post
It's true to say that there are a lot of things that are on that list that are not in the XBLA game, however, it's not to say that they are actually "missing" :-)
so spadge are you hinting at something ;)

WildDog9
7 Mar 2007, 00:17
He's saying not everything was that important and isn't missed.

wickedfool
7 Mar 2007, 03:17
I agree with you Spadge, to a point. But one of the reasons why Armageddon and WWP are so popular are mostly due to the options and weapon selection. My wife enjoys WWP and I can hardly get her to play any games. But I do understand what you are saying. When I play her, I dont use the power weapons, but I show her how to use them against me. She has a blast destroying me with power weapons while I use the less powerful ones to even out the contest. Now, with what you guys are trying to accomplish for an arcade game, this should be fun. The solid online network, the voice communication, and HD graphics will be very welcomed. For the typical XBLA user, keeping it simple is probably the way to go. Make the game easy to just pick up and play. The least complicated the game is, the more new players you should get.
However, if you guys ever decide to hook us old school worm addicts up and go full retail.......there should be no denying the power of all those weapons. I am not saying every one of those weapons on that list should make it, but it does raise fun factor that just is not there without them. At least have options for users to decide which weapons to be in or out.
Maybe Team17 is doing a little strategic marketing themselves. Give the 360 an XBLA game that is Worms but simplified. For the price, this is the game I would expect. Hopefully, they get the old fans and a bunch of new fans into the High Def, 2D series. Then they introduce a retail version that is a fully featured, decked out options, all the old favorite weapons, new balanced weapons, custom maps, awesome sound banks, great terrain and etc. They will sell more copies since it would be a sequel to XBLA game. Gamers old and new will be familar with the XBLA game, and a full retail version may be able to sell more due to it. Just a thought.......and a hope.

SpaceInsom
7 Mar 2007, 03:24
"
A suggestion.. how about a Worms Lite and a Worms Plus.. lite for newbs. "Plus" for people that know what they're doing.
If you really "know what you're doing", you wouldn't want most of that garbage anyhow. In fact, nothing screams "newbs" to me like a game filled with super weapons.
95% of the weapons and tools I really use have been included in the XBLA game. Most of the really "wacky" weapons end up taking more away from the game than they add. Other than the parachute and worm select, there's not a whole lot missing here of any real value.
Once the game is out, I'm betting people will ***** more about missing options (such as a level editor, or team play) than they will the weapon set. But this is obviously about getting a new generation of gamers interested in Worms, and that stuff will likely come down the road in later versions.

pulsecode
7 Mar 2007, 04:51
Well, i've been lingering for a while but as Worms is but hours away, i shall break cover and say... I think worms for XBLA sounds absolutely perfect to me!
The weapons sound pretty much spot on to me (allthough i must admit i'll miss the holy hand grenade and baseball bat) and i'm looking forward to a propper game of worms again!
As much as super weapons and random weird stuff amused me they, for the most part, made the game very lop-sided.
May Team 17 profit hugely like they deserve off this and make us many more awesome games! (Hmm... something alien breed or actually project x flavoured would be rather nice... ;^) Allthough more worms is MORE than welcome! hehe!)

robowurmz
7 Mar 2007, 07:48
Hey guys, chill out! Why complain about the weapons? It's just as well we GOT a game! It comes out in around 15 minutes! So listen!
Team17 have worked hard to produce a game for us, and all we can do is whinge to them about it? Man! That's harsh!
Heck, they've still got loads of other stuff hidden in the works, and who knows?
Could be extra weapons, yes, but it could be an entirely new game! Something DIFFERENT, and cool!

Midxcore
7 Mar 2007, 11:34
You can argue all you want about how strategic the game is, but I think the point here is that Worms has always been known and loved for it's interesting array of weaponry, and now that we've lost some of the ones we've come to care for the most it's just a little saddening.
Personally I'm a little bummed about not having the Holy Hand Grenade and Baseball Bat. I'm gonna miss that home-run tune. As for strategy with super weapons, perhaps they could've been unlockable, only used in the later rounds of the game, or even implemented with a simple on/off switch.
Great game nonetheless, buying it today :)

bonz
7 Mar 2007, 15:06
Mole Bomb - Not to be confused with the mole bomb of Worms: Armageddon and Worms World Party, this weapon is only available in Worms Reinforcements and Worms United. It is a cluster bomb with drill shaped bomblets that can dig through terrain. Explosion power is that of the banana bomb. Due to a bug it was very rare in crates.
Nice copy & paste from Wikipedia. :)
I wrote that entry about the WR/U mole bomb.

Shamrock66
7 Mar 2007, 15:32
Not a conversation I'd choose to have with you, actually.
My point was actually that adding lots of additional pieces wouldn't necessarily make for a more interesting or strategic OR enjoyable game. I wasn't comparing Worms and Chess (why would you, chess has FAR more rigid dynamics of play - enabling it to be read, predicted and calculated by brute force methods).
Not to knock your reasoning here. I do understand this will be the first time playing worms for a whole heck of a lot of people. I just hope the true reason a lot of weapons are missing (like the Holy Hand Gernade) is because of what you say (balance and new players) and not because were going to get nickeled and dimed on Payed content downloads.

parsley
7 Mar 2007, 15:43
As Spadge noted, there are no weapons missing :D.
I believe that the weapon set is the same as in WoW for PSP... a long time before XBLA.

quakerworm
7 Mar 2007, 15:55
As Spadge noted, there are no weapons missing :D.
you are forgetting the #1 rule of user-developer relations. if users say it's a bug, it's a bug. if users say something is missing, it's missing. if users want to call something something else, that's what it is called. developer's intentions don't matter, and trying to convince the users of anything is pointless. just accept it.

Midxcore
7 Mar 2007, 16:02
you are forgetting the #1 rule of user-developer relations. if users say it's a bug, it's a bug. if users say something is missing, it's missing. if users want to call something something else, that's what it is called. developer's intentions don't matter, and trying to convince the users of anything is pointless. just accept it.
This is true. The games are made for us primarily, the gaming community. By all means they could just make games for themselves.. but I hear there's not much money in it.

AndrewTaylor
7 Mar 2007, 16:03
This is the most nonsensical excuse for not including all the weapons in Worms. Everyone who bought the PC version of worms had to start with a mountain of weapons in the list.. sure it was a bit overwhelming at first but I got use to it and loved every single weapon.. except maybe the mole bomb.
...No.
The PC market is very different to the XBLA market. From your point of view, sure. You're still you and you've got two games and one of them has less weapons, so you're bound to feel the weapon set in the other is better. But look at the games as what they are...
W:A was a PC game that retailed for £30 new. It was aimed at PC owners; a breed who love RTS games and who just can't get enough of learning their way round massive games with loads of featues. It's also a sequel -- you can't just stick the same weapons in again and expect it to sell. Worms was that, then Worms 2 built on it. By the time W:A came out you needed a pretty impressive feature list just to justify releasing the game.
Worms on XBLA is a game that retails for a pittance new. It is aimed at the casual gamer, who wants to fire up Live Arcade and blast off a few rounds against someone in a distant land in order to kill a few minutes.
It is not supposed to be the content-rich, fully-featured £30 commercial release that W:A was. It gives you Worms -- nothing missing, nothing added. Just Worms. It also gives you ranked online play.
Considering the number of people barking on (quite wrongly) about how online play was the most important part of Worms when online play wasn't working properly, and considering the popularity of BNG schemes, I'd have thought people would be happy about this, but suddenly online play is working and the baseball bat is gone the super-weapons are the most important part.
you are forgetting the #1 rule of user-developer relations. if users say it's a bug, it's a bug. if users say something is missing, it's missing. if users want to call something something else, that's what it is called. developer's intentions don't matter, and trying to convince the users of anything is pointless. just accept it.
You are forgetting the #1 rule of science. This forum is a biased sample space. Everyone here is, as a general rule, a PC worms player. They've all played the PC games and apparently expect the same features in all games, no matter how unreasonable that is. Xboxes can't get on this forum. Xbox owners don't know it exists. Satisfied customers are unlikely to look up the company's website and find a way to express their satisfaction. So why would Team17 assume a game is bad because a handful of vocal people had expected it to be something other than what it is?

skye360
7 Mar 2007, 16:19
Yeah, all that lot would make it very comfortable for people new to the series. Are you suggesting that strategic titles like Chess should go for more pieces too? You could even extend this list further by including every possible user weapon you could create with Mayhem! :-/
Additionally, anything with THAT amount of weaponry over online play would take MONTHS and MONTHS and err, MONTHS to test. I guess some people won't be satisfied unless there are 200 weapons and the game is totally imbalanced and over in seconds, where people have no idea what's in a scheme or what strategy to adopt.
So the answer is to remove choice altogether? Catering to the noobs means you lose the hardcore Worms fans? That's OK to you?

Galrikh
7 Mar 2007, 16:26
That sounds for me like: "Play Worms Armageddon on PC, go away from XBLA"

quakerworm
7 Mar 2007, 16:28
You are forgetting the #1 rule of science. This forum is a biased sample space. Everyone here is, as a general rule, a PC worms player. They've all played the PC games and apparently expect the same features in all games, no matter how unreasonable that is. Xboxes can't get on this forum. Xbox owners don't know it exists. Satisfied customers are unlikely to look up the company's website and find a way to express their satisfaction. So why would Team17 assume a game is bad because a handful of vocal people had expected it to be something other than what it is?first of all, that would be a rule of stats. in science you intentionally construct biased samples half the time to test the theory. but that's besides the point. the important part is that i never claimed that this forum represents the user base. i stated, as fact, that the quality of spadge's arguments on the weapon set will not effect the opinions formed by the user base about the said weapon set, and the opinions of the later are of more importance. where you got the idea that this has something to do with the opinions of the forum members, i do not know.

skye360
7 Mar 2007, 16:34
That sounds for me like: "Play Worms Armageddon on PC, go away from XBLA"
I would try that, but Worms Armageddon on XP is awful (even after it was patched) and cant even start on Vista.

quakerworm
7 Mar 2007, 16:39
armageddon runs fine under xp for me. are you sure it is not a configuration problem?

AndrewTaylor
7 Mar 2007, 16:49
first of all, that would be a rule of stats. in science you intentionally construct biased samples half the time to test the theory. but that's besides the point. ...And utter rubbish to boot.the important part is that i never claimed that this forum represents the user base. i stated, as fact, that the quality of spadge's arguments on the weapon set will not effect the opinions formed by the user base about the said weapon set, and the opinions of the later are of more importance. where you got the idea that this has something to do with the opinions of the forum members, i do not know.
Spadge's argument wasn't "but we were trying to make a game which..."; it was "but new Worms players don't want...". The new Worms players in question aren't here, so saying "if people say it's a bug then it's a bug" isn't helpful, because the people who are saying "it's a bug" are a minority group.
He wasn't saying "it's not a bug just because people say it is"; he was saying "there's a load of other people just over there who would say it's not a bug". He was speaking for the absent majority.
The people saying "it's a bug" aren't the people the game is aimed at. How is their opinion relevant?
So the answer is to remove choice altogether? Catering to the noobs means you lose the hardcore Worms fans? That's OK to you?
Hardcore Worms fans play with the superweapons turned off anyway.

Midxcore
7 Mar 2007, 17:00
Y'know whatever the argument, the simple fact remains that most people think that Armageddon is the better game. So for XBLA Worms to be better, it needs to be more like Armageddon.
Simple philosophy.

quakerworm
7 Mar 2007, 17:45
Spadge's argument wasn't "but we were trying to make a game which..."; it was "but new Worms players don't want...". The new Worms players in question aren't here, so saying "if people say it's a bug then it's a bug" isn't helpful, because the people who are saying "it's a bug" are a minority group.
He wasn't saying "it's not a bug just because people say it is"; he was saying "there's a load of other people just over there who would say it's not a bug". He was speaking for the absent majority.
The people saying "it's a bug" aren't the people the game is aimed at. How is their opinion relevant?
woah. how can you make an assumption that the majority does not think that it is a bug? just because the forum is a bad sample, doesn't mean that the user base holds an opposite opinion. furthermore, who the game is aimed at and who actually plays it are not always the same group. and spadge, even though he probably did some research, has no more basis to represent the absent majority than people who come here to complain. well, maybe a bit more, but not nearly enough to actually speak for them.
we have, in theory, 3 possible groups of users. first are people new to the worms. they will not miss any weapons, because they don't know any other ones. then we have returning fans who know the old weapon sets, but don't miss them. finally, we have a group of returning fans who are disappointed by the weapon set. short of starting to call random phone numbers, i cannot think of a single half-reliable method of determining which of these groups will be a majority. there are just way too many parameters, each one requiring its own statistical analysis.

skye360
7 Mar 2007, 18:00
...And utter rubbish to boot.
Spadge's argument wasn't "but we were trying to make a game which..."; it was "but new Worms players don't want...". The new Worms players in question aren't here, so saying "if people say it's a bug then it's a bug" isn't helpful, because the people who are saying "it's a bug" are a minority group.
He wasn't saying "it's not a bug just because people say it is"; he was saying "there's a load of other people just over there who would say it's not a bug". He was speaking for the absent majority.
The people saying "it's a bug" aren't the people the game is aimed at. How is their opinion relevant?
Hardcore Worms fans play with the superweapons turned off anyway.
No they don't. And do they also turn off parachutes and bungee cords?

quakerworm
7 Mar 2007, 18:26
i don't think i have ever seen anyone using a bungee cord in an on-line game for anything other than showing off. parachutes are useful, though. i'd prefer to have 'chutes in the game over the jet packs.

akaimizu
7 Mar 2007, 19:17
Actually, I really think the weaponset here is fine. It is a pretty good selection of the *classic* worms weapons. They chose ones that pretty much have a specific use and streamlined out the extras. Also, the title is perfect for the release. It's simply called (Worms). It's not Worms 2. It's not Worms: Secret Missions. It's not Worms: Hardcore. It's not Worms: The Fisk Wars. It's not Worms: Boggy B's Revenge! It's just plain Worms.
That's a title that shouts. Here ya go new players, welcome to your new addiction. Worms Armageddon would definitely confuse the new player, and XBLA definitely caters to that first if it is the first game in a series. Now I could imagine, if Team 17 wanted to put a new Worms game, after this; they would probably do so when they realize that they have some new blood that's no longer the rookies they were, and are salivating for a more daunting weapon's list.
But I'll agree. Worms is a game that's fun on so many levels and with so many weapon's options. I started worms back when it had a similar Weapon list and even less options. The original and first Amiga version. (It became quite advanced by the time it went to Director's Cut AGA; which still has a load of in-game features almost no other Worms game has). But even back then, my ease of picking up the Director's Cut and seeing new weapons was because I was so familiar with the original set; the original set was hardly counted in what I had to learn. I basically started counting with the new stuff.
Nevertheless, I can easily go to this weaponset and have great fun at it. One of the reasons is, is to fine-tune and increase my lagging skills with the original weapons. A lot of the newly added stuff made me lazy to the old weapons, and I realized that I've grown worse at them. Maybe I should've kept a weaponset, like this, in mind, and kept making a scheme that forced more old-school worms combat, in those games. It's amazing what you can accomplish with the weapons here (especially if you add the mayhem of mines, resulting flying worm trajectories for more domino effects, and flaming barrels). You also feel the more better for it, because you're now required to be more resourceful with the stuff you have, and actually find more uses from a given weapon than you'd care to even use if all the new stuff was here. You can still accomplish nearly everything, if you put your mind to it.
Still, I see myself adding in a few more setups for even more classic combat. Options with a limited version of the set that is in this game. Including a close to original Artillery* setup with only Infinite Bazookas, and limited Grenades as the total inventory. (The one where the Grenades become the precious, but limited commodity due to their Roll and timer factor and lack of being affected by wind)
Still, I can't help but be curious as to what they have in mind for downloadable content. Ever since I've played the first ever released game of Worms, I had a Team Addams With Gomez, Morticia, Wednesday, and Pugsly (or Lurch). This one is no different.
One thing I would love for a new version of worms to have, one day, is the Individual Worm stat keeping of Director's Cut. It's nice that Team Statistics are still on track; but I loved being able to look up how well an individual worms was doing, in that version. It brought a real attachment to specific heroic worms of your team.

AndrewTaylor
7 Mar 2007, 19:57
woah. how can you make an assumption that the majority does not think that it is a bug? just because the forum is a bad sample, doesn't mean that the user base holds an opposite opinion.
Well no, obviously not.
But the fact that this forum holds an opinion that one would expect it to hold does nothing to further the idea that anyone else holds that opinion, so saying "if the users say it's a bug then it's a bug" isn't useful because we don't know what "the users" are saying. All we know is what "the forum" is saying and as I mentioned "the forum" isn't a useful sample.
For the record, I can make the 'assumption' that it's not a bug because I know what the word "bug" means and a feature you'd like to be there not being there isn't one. It's not a bug because the software operates to its specifications.
The way we judge opinions is by looking at how many people download the demo and how many people buy the full game compared to other XBLA titles. For now we wait.

quakerworm
8 Mar 2007, 05:47
But the fact that this forum holds an opinion that one would expect it to hold does nothing to further the idea that anyone else holds that opinion, so saying "if the users say it's a bug then it's a bug" isn't useful because we don't know what "the users" are saying. All we know is what "the forum" is saying and as I mentioned "the forum" isn't a useful sample.
it wasn't meant to construct some sort of a prediction. just saying that parsley's statement, "As Spadge noted, there are no weapons missing" isn't valid, because decision of whether or not weapons are missing is up to the users.
For the record, I can make the 'assumption' that it's not a bug because I know what the word "bug" means and a feature you'd like to be there not being there isn't one. It's not a bug because the software operates to its specifications.
right, because you have some idea of what the specification was. user base does not. telling them on the forums doesn't help, because as you pointed out, most of them don't go to the forums. so if they don't see something they expected, they will call it a bug. since they are the ones deciding whether to buy the next game or not, it generally works out better to fix it in the patch, if that is an option, than keep insisting that it's the way it was meant to be. even if it's not fixable, there is generally little point trying to convince them that it's not a bug.
For now we wait.
exactly.

The_Reapr
8 Mar 2007, 14:36
I can understand the reduced weaponset, but part of me does long for the Holy Hand Grenade. Maybe it's because I've only played the demo (not got a clue about soundbanks and whatnot), but I don't really get that Worms charm (except in the text). I'm sure people will disagree, but at least some of that charm was from the super-weapons, even if you only had one come about in the entire game (through chests, I mean). There's a lot of character in the super-sheep, in the HHG, and even to some degree the Concrete Donkey.
A lot of the super-weapons I could do without. But those three (and the Old Woman) I would have liked to see.
I'll probably get it at some point, as soon as I bother to buy more points. But I doubt I'll be playing it like I played W:A - sure, completely different games, markets, etc, I concede that, but I still think that there's still a lot of potential within the XBLA market for Worms.

AndrewTaylor
8 Mar 2007, 15:33
it wasn't meant to construct some sort of a prediction. just saying that parsley's statement, "As Spadge noted, there are no weapons missing" isn't valid, because decision of whether or not weapons are missing is up to the users.
right, because you have some idea of what the specification was. user base does not. telling them on the forums doesn't help, because as you pointed out, most of them don't go to the forums. so if they don't see something they expected, they will call it a bug. since they are the ones deciding whether to buy the next game or not, it generally works out better to fix it in the patch, if that is an option, than keep insisting that it's the way it was meant to be. even if it's not fixable, there is generally little point trying to convince them that it's not a bug.
Yes -- all I meant there was that a missing feature is not the same thing as a bug, and if the user base wants to call it a bug then that just the user base misusing the term. Somewhere along the line the word "bug" had attached itself to the "missing" weapons and I was just trying to detach it.

Twinson
8 Mar 2007, 15:36
Some of you really are ungreatful sods you know.. and there's one easy way round it - don't buy it (hell, you don't have to as you can download the trial!!)
I'm not trying to brown-nose here but the game in its current form perfectly suits XBLA play - small teams, strategic play encouraged through an uncomplicated arsenal of weapons (though I'd really have loved the minigun).
Let's not forget.. it's 1 day old.. it has an option for downloadable content so everyone spazzing just go back and take your diazepam - the fufre may hold allsorts for us.

PabloCreep
8 Mar 2007, 19:08
I don't wanna take sides really, but my view is if you don't want to over-face new players make it an option to turn them on? Did new people complain that WA or suchlike were too complex due to the number of weapons?
I do think more should've been included, but it's still addictive as heroine.

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