No more Worms 3D games! [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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deadman_uk
18 Sep 2006, 02:49
Argh I have had it with Worms 3D games, they are all the same, all have horrid controls and bad camera angles. Why can't Worms be like it's suppose to be.... in 2D!
I play Worms Armageddon online. My name's on there are Deadman and gohan2091. I love worms as a 2D game, it just works really well.
Are there any plans to release a new Worms game but in 2D? Does anyone feel the way I do?

Dando
18 Sep 2006, 03:46
I'd say most people feel like you, including me. But sadly, it is about sales, and in this day and age, most people will not touch 2D on a next generation console like Ps2,3.
I know your frustration, but Woems armageddon is more or less as good as a 2D game can get anyway:) Guess we will just have to live with WA :):):) and why not?:p

Lex
18 Sep 2006, 06:02
With the success of W:OW, I don't see a reason that they wouldn't want to make a new 2D Worms game. People love it! I wouldn't be surprised at all if they actually did!

deadman_uk
18 Sep 2006, 06:04
I'd say most people feel like you, including me. But sadly, it is about sales, and in this day and age, most people will not touch 2D on a next generation console like Ps2,3.
Team 17 should stay true to their fans :p. I agree Worms 2D probably wouldnt work well on next gen consoles but what about the PC? Team 17 must realise that loads of people still play Worms Armageddon and Worms World Party so they must wonder why these people arent moving to Worms 3D. They must recieve email about how awful Worms 3D is so releasing the next Worms game in 2D is a good idea.
I know your frustration, but Woems armageddon is more or less as good as a 2D game can get anyway:) Guess we will just have to live with WA :)and why not?:p
I disagree, sure the graphics are 2D but there are lots of things that could be improved. Such as....
- I know its 2D but the graphics could be improved a bit.
- Ability to customize your worms and your HUD
- New animations
- New weapons
- New maps and larger maps (the maps on WA are too smalll)
- New single player missions
I just thought of these without thinking much and already those things above would be nice. Even an expansion pack would make me happy!
Yes you are right, I can live with WA but its almost 8 years old, its time for improvements!

Dando
18 Sep 2006, 06:11
and all of them improvements can be made to WA via patch;)

deadman_uk
18 Sep 2006, 06:13
and all of them improvements can be made to WA via patch;)
Really? Why havent these features been made earlier then? :p

franpa
18 Sep 2006, 08:23
cause it takes TIME..... and...
- I know its 2D but the graphics could be improved a bit.
this would make it harder for artists/level designers unless you have 2 file formats... the original and a new one thus allowing people to stay making stuff with the original format.
- Ability to customize your worms and your HUD
there is no HUD in w2.
- New animations
- New weapons
start drawing dude.
- New maps and larger maps (the maps on WA are too smalll)
this is being worked on i believe.
- New single player missions
don't see the point.

Vader
18 Sep 2006, 08:26
I'd say most people feel like you, including me. But most people will not touch 2D on a next generation console
Most people prefer 2D, so most people should buy 2D.
I can't see why there's any confusion!
As I understand it, the Worms 3D engine will have to be written from scratch if there are to be any significant changes in the Worms 3D games. As it is, Worms Armageddon is more fun to play and doesn't need a whole new engine to be great.
I feel sorry for Team17 whenever someone mentions the 3D games. :p

Lex
18 Sep 2006, 08:27
there is no HUD in w2."HUD" means "Heads-Up Display", which is a very silly term for the graphical elements which display information during gameplay. The HUD in Worms 2 includes the turn timer, the wind, and the health bars.

franpa
18 Sep 2006, 10:26
but it is not a HUD because you are not in 1st person perspective... i agree with vader 2d is the way to go and as far as im concerned it always has been (save for a minor amount like duke 3d and blood etc.) i have always dreamed of companies rereleasing there games with newer graphics and sounds but keeping level designs the same and the same basic game engine......
like what i hear i think ubisoft might be doing to settlers 2... i think 3d games/technology are/is still too primitive.

Vercetti
18 Sep 2006, 10:42
We always view things in first person (at least while awake), so HUD is acceptable.
2D for the win!

franpa
18 Sep 2006, 10:47
we do not view worms 2 in first person... we look at a screen that shows a side on view.... what you said is that the monitor itself is the HUD.

yakuza
18 Sep 2006, 13:17
If Fiddler compatibility with online play is relased I really don't see a point for a new worm's game.

franpa
18 Sep 2006, 14:14
if that was to happen yakuza then restrictions would be needed... as im sure most will start playing with fiddler schemes that are changed so drastically as to make the online experience rather depressing for dial up users.

yakuza
18 Sep 2006, 15:13
Well, i do not see VHS users complaining.

Plasma
18 Sep 2006, 18:11
Most people prefer 2D, so most people should buy 2D.
I can't see why there's any confusion!
The real question is, do most people really prefer 2D?
As I understand it, the Worms 3D engine will have to be written from scratch if there are to be any significant changes in the Worms 3D games.
What gives you that idea?

Vader
18 Sep 2006, 19:13
What gives you that idea?
In my eyes, in order to make Worms 3D fun, it would need a new camera, a new control system, a new fully destructible landscape method which leave sphrical holes rather than blocky ones, a less chunky interface, and a less console-oriented codebase.
Let's look at the evidence. Worms 4:Mayhem is essentially Worms 3D but with hats. As far as I'm aware, the game mechanics are identical (bar some new weapons, although they also succumb to the same engine) and this leads me to believe that a significant improvment on the game will require a total overhaul. Of course, Team17 can't afford that and they put a lot of heart and soul into their 3D engine. That's why it makes me sad that it's an infrior game.
Personally I hope they make more 2D Worms games, even if it means sticking to handheld systems or selling at budget prices. :p
we do not view worms 2 in first person... we look at a screen that shows a side on view.... what you said is that the monitor itself is the HUD.
I think the point is that the HUD does not become obscured by the game at all. It remains very much in the fore-most foreground and communicates essential information to the user. Whether the game is 3D or not is entirely irrelevant.

Plasma
18 Sep 2006, 19:23
In my eyes, in order to make Worms 3D fun, it would need a new camera, a new control system, a new fully destructible landscape method which leave sphrical holes rather than blocky ones, a less chunky interface, and a less console-oriented codebase.
Let's look at the evidence. Worms 4:Mayhem is essentially Worms 3D but with hats. As far as I'm aware, the game mechanics are identical (bar some new weapons, although they also succumb to the same engine) and this leads me to believe that a significant improvment on the game will require a total overhaul. Of course, Team17 can't afford that and they put a lot of heart and soul into their 3D engine. That's why it makes me sad that it's an infrior game.
Eh? The only thing the same with W4 and W3D is the maps and the base design. Aside from terrain, there was a completely new engine for W4.
And when you add WF:US in, there was a lot more drastic changes with the 3D than there was with the 2D designs.
All that changed in 2D was the graphics and added weapons.

Vader
18 Sep 2006, 19:28
Yeah and WWP was inferior to WA, IMHO.
Was there really a whole new engine for W4? From playing the demo I didn't see any differences other than accesories and weapons. Besides, you say the thing which didn't change was the terrain. That's a major problem for me. I found there were too many water kills in games and the blocky craters were awkward, to say the least.
What I'd like is a version of Worms, in 2D, which is superior to WA.

MrBunsy
18 Sep 2006, 20:07
It might be possible if T17 were to start their own digital distribution system rather than relying on publishers, which as far as I can tell, have only given them a bad time over the last few years.

Vader
18 Sep 2006, 20:32
The publishers have also the release of many games, thereby bringing funds into Team17's account.
Publishers do more than simply distribute the final working copy of the game. I may be missing the point here.

Kelster23
19 Sep 2006, 00:51
They could always try 2-d-3-d.
Super Smash Brothers got away with it.:p

Dando
19 Sep 2006, 01:12
Anyway, forget all that. I am still awaiting the day we are all submerged in the game with suits...and you ARE the worm with full physics. That way you can really aim the shotgun,bazooka etc:p

Lyndon
19 Sep 2006, 01:37
id love a new 2D worms, if it happens ill be super happy, if it doesnt ill just bug david more

Kelster23
19 Sep 2006, 02:05
Anyway, forget all that. I am still awaiting the day we are all submerged in the game with suits...and you ARE the worm with full physics. That way you can really aim the shotgun,bazooka etc:p
And drown, and feel like you're flying through the air, get hit with a hammer... could you imagine something like Half-Life or Halo in that sense?

Dando
19 Sep 2006, 02:17
You took that too far, touch stimuli (pain etc) would be outlawed;) only the physics, visual, sounds allowed.

Lyndon
19 Sep 2006, 02:18
And drown, and feel like you're flying through the air, get hit with a hammer... could you imagine something like Half-Life or Halo in that sense?
That would be fun, id hope that was like the VR missions, and your in a big real room, everything is real except the targets

franpa
19 Sep 2006, 02:23
Anyway, forget all that. I am still awaiting the day we are all submerged in the game with suits...and you ARE the worm with full physics. That way you can really aim the shotgun,bazooka etc:p
the only problem i see with this is that they would have to find a way to constantly reassure the users brain that what is happening in the game is fake somehow.... heh unless they want you to actually die.... and think about it... a virus that could override this safety system thus meaning that your brain wont know what is real and what isn't.

[UFP]Ghost
19 Sep 2006, 02:35
lol i agree it would be fun but many deaths so it depends how good the games are i guess, it would solve over population.....

Dando
19 Sep 2006, 03:11
Franpa, you have been watching too much matrix.:p, hopefully not parts 2 and 3...don't get me started on that hogwash.

franpa
19 Sep 2006, 05:34
but think about it... in order to emulate (not simulate) physics and everything except pain/death would result in you still actually getting hurt while playing the game... this is because of how we have been brought up... once our generation of people get wiped out due to these games a new generation will take over and will never know what pain is because that generation will spend too much playing painless games and never ever knowing what pain is because there brain doesn't know what an injury is and as such cant harm them.

Plasma
19 Sep 2006, 17:28
but think about it... in order to emulate (not simulate) physics and everything except pain/death would result in you still actually getting hurt while playing the game... this is because of how we have been brought up... once our generation of people get wiped out due to these games a new generation will take over and will never know what pain is because that generation will spend too much playing painless games and never ever knowing what pain is because there brain doesn't know what an injury is and as such cant harm them.
So your theory here is that people will die by playing games that cant cause pain, but their children will not feel that pain because you're invulnerable if you don't know what pain is, and that everyone will spend their life playing games?
There, three things that make no sense.
They could always try 2-d-3-d.
Super Smash Brothers got away with it.:p
Discussed before. It was decided it would be too hard because of the size of the maps.
Was there really a whole new engine for W4? From playing the demo I didn't see any differences other than accesories and weapons. Besides, you say the thing which didn't change was the terrain. That's a major problem for me. I found there were too many water kills in games and the blocky craters were awkward, to say the least.
Yeah, I forgot. The terrain was also given a base ground that used slopes instead of blocks which was also harder to dent vertically. The terrain in W4 was also much wider than that in W3D.

robowurmz
19 Sep 2006, 18:39
In my opinion, Worms 4: Mayhem was a great triumph in the 3D worms realm, although, I do prefer 2D.

deadman_uk
19 Sep 2006, 22:21
I emailed Team 17 asking if there are any plans to release any new 2D worm games and they replied back saying...
Earlier this year we released Worms Open Warfare, which is a 2D Worms
games for the PSP and Nintendo DS.
Then I asked if there was any plans to release 2D worm games on PC and a reply was sent to me saying..
We currently have no plans to release a 2D Worms game for the PC, sorry.
What if we all email them or set up a compaign?

KRD
19 Sep 2006, 22:29
How about we don't and let the people do what they enjoy doing.
I mean it's bad enough companies are being limited in what they're allowed to do by the publishers. If the fanbase does the same from the other end, they might explode.

franpa
19 Sep 2006, 23:45
So your theory here is that people will die by playing games that cant cause pain, but their children will not feel that pain because you're invulnerable if you don't know what pain is, and that everyone will spend their life playing games?
think of the matrix as a video game.... if you spend too much time in it your brain will forgot whats real and whats not UNLESS there is a safety mechanism... once your brain forgets about the real world it will think everything in the game world is real.... and since we have been brought up to feel pain our brains will emulate it for us instead of the game because it forgets whats real etc.

[UFP]Ghost
19 Sep 2006, 23:47
well if the idea had enough fan base around then wouldn't the publisher want to do it?

Vader
20 Sep 2006, 00:57
It all comes down to cost.
No matter how large the fan base, if they don't spend enough on it for them to at least break even then there's no way it would happen.

Lyndon
20 Sep 2006, 01:31
think of the matrix as a video game.... if you spend too much time in it your brain will forgot whats real and whats not UNLESS there is a safety mechanism... once your brain forgets about the real world it will think everything in the game world is real.... and since we have been brought up to feel pain our brains will emulate it for us instead of the game because it forgets whats real etc.
I disagree, cuase I have played Paintballing, and I have never got into a zone where I forget its fake, and Ive played video games on drugs and I have never felt any physical pain even though I was totally thinking I was in the game and it was real. (not reccomended for others to do)

franpa
20 Sep 2006, 02:13
is paintball a true 3d game or is it a simulation of 3d on a 2d tv screen?

Dando
20 Sep 2006, 03:01
Physical pain is by the brain as a result of stimuli to the skin or other sensory input. Without such there is no pain, therefore a 3d environment no matter how real cannot cause pain without having these factors. You aren't rally drowning, you are still breathing. The only sensory input is visual and audio, there is no input that is damaging, the brain is not stupid.
Matrix was totally flawed in many areas, and alot of its ideas wheer also flawed. That whole business "your brain makes it real" is just stupid. Anyone with any knowledge at all knows this would not be the case...physical pain cannot happen that way....*rant over*

Lyndon
20 Sep 2006, 03:31
is paintball a true 3d game or is it a simulation of 3d on a 2d tv screen?
Paintballing is a outdoor game you play with guns that shoot paint, everything is real, and it can hurt alot.

Kelster23
20 Sep 2006, 03:53
Now imagine something like... GTA San Adreas or something harsher like that...

franpa
20 Sep 2006, 03:56
Paint balling is a outdoor game you play with guns that shoot paint, everything is real, and it can hurt alot.
as i thought and does that bear any relevance?

Lyndon
20 Sep 2006, 04:47
as i thought and does that bear any relevance?
I think it does, but if you dont think so, thats your agenda, ill still love ya

iamgood
20 Sep 2006, 20:47
I've had visions about a helmet that makes you really inside the game, with some kind of technology that makes you move ingame with your own brain, with some connection technology. I don't think this is possible untill men has created cyborg technology though, so we can transfer our minds through some surgery to software brains that are placed in a robotic body. I mean, how will our natural brains communicate with software seamlessly? Without harm being done? And how would we be able to navigate game menus, jump out of the game to ingame menus, exit the game etc if we no longer had control of our own body, because of the brain transferring body commands to the in-game body instead of to our real limbs! And when we are connected to the game, we wouldn't be able to see or hear anything that's going on around us in the real world, and the worst thing to happen would be a psycho sneaking into your house and killing you! Anything could happen to you without you noticing, because it's like you're "dreaming".
Perhaps this would not occur if you have your brain transferred into data in a software brain, wich will allow for more unnatural mental features, wich it will take several hundred years for man to invent.
...I'm strange, take a look at that post length!
Anyway, to the core subject,
It might be possible if T17 were to start their own digital distribution system rather than relying on publishers, which as far as I can tell, have only given them a bad time over the last few years.
Team 17 should make a deal with VALVe to distribute their games through Steam. I would love seeing my Worms games in my Steam Games list, and that way T17 can make games and distribute them through Steam's content delivery system (that system is the way of the future dudes, and it's a huge success) ! A lot of companys are making these deals with Valve, and I heard that for example Darwinia, one of the first games not being Valve and Gearbox that got published through Steam, made more sales through Steam in a week than it made in several years when being retail! And I just love seeing the Steam library growing with such great games!
Steam is such a great program, both for customers and developers, T17 should try it.

Plasma
20 Sep 2006, 21:55
Team 17 should make a deal with VALVe to distribute their games through Steam. I would love seeing my Worms games in my Steam Games list, and that way T17 can make games and distribute them through Steam's content delivery system (that system is the way of the future dudes, and it's a huge success) ! A lot of companys are making these deals with Valve, and I heard that for example Darwinia, one of the first games not being Valve and Gearbox that got published through Steam, made more sales through Steam in a week than it made in several years when being retail! And I just love seeing the Steam library growing with such great games!
Steam is such a great program, both for customers and developers, T17 should try it.
Nah, Steam is more for the smaller games, while Team17 are more of the full-blown game developers. Besides, Steam is only limited to PC.

Kelster23
21 Sep 2006, 04:59
Nah, Steam is more for the smaller games, while Team17 are more of the full-blown game developers. Besides, Steam is only limited to PC.
Half-Life1, Half-Life Opposing Force, Half-Life Blue Shift and Half-Life Counterstrike aren't small games?

franpa
21 Sep 2006, 06:56
I've had visions about a helmet that makes you really inside the game, with some kind of technology that makes you move ingame with your own brain, with some connection technology. I don't think this is possible untill men has created cyborg technology though, so we can transfer our minds through some surgery to software brains that are placed in a robotic body. I mean, how will our natural brains communicate with software seamlessly? Without harm being done? And how would we be able to navigate game menus, jump out of the game to ingame menus, exit the game etc if we no longer had control of our own body, because of the brain transferring body commands to the in-game body instead of to our real limbs! And when we are connected to the game, we wouldn't be able to see or hear anything that's going on around us in the real world, and the worst thing to happen would be a psycho sneaking into your house and killing you! Anything could happen to you without you noticing, because it's like you're "dreaming".
Perhaps this would not occur if you have your brain transferred into data in a software brain, wich will allow for more unnatural mental features, wich it will take several hundred years for man to invent.
...I'm strange, take a look at that post length!
Anyway, to the core subject,
Team 17 should make a deal with VALVe to distribute their games through Steam. I would love seeing my Worms games in my Steam Games list, and that way T17 can make games and distribute them through Steam's content delivery system (that system is the way of the future dudes, and it's a huge success) ! A lot of companys are making these deals with Valve, and I heard that for example Darwinia, one of the first games not being Valve and Gearbox that got published through Steam, made more sales through Steam in a week than it made in several years when being retail! And I just love seeing the Steam library growing with such great games!
Steam is such a great program, both for customers and developers, T17 should try it.
they can paralyze your body while your in the game and have it be a virtual helmet which does not interact directly to your brain thus leaving you in control of your real eyes and senses and they can have a fail safe where if you want out it de paralyzes you so that you can remove the helmet and gloves and boots etc. and get away from the person you sensed was gonna kill you.

iamgood
21 Sep 2006, 15:59
Half-Life1, Half-Life Opposing Force, Half-Life Blue Shift and Half-Life Counterstrike aren't small games?
Was going to say that if you didn't beat me to it:p And you forgot Day of Defeat, Half-Life 2 and the Episodes!
But I think he's talking about the non-Valve/Gearbox material, and to that, I disagree. Sure, there are to a big degree smaller games being distributed through Steam, but there are really big-budget games there too even if you dicount the "core" games, such as the upcoming games Dark Messiah of Might and Magic and Defcon. Steam isn't for just Valve and Gearbox games and small games, it's for all sorts of games!
And franpa, I wonder if that's possible in the real world though!

MrBunsy
21 Sep 2006, 17:04
Yeah, Valve has distributed all sorts of games over steam, from Red Orchestra (woot I love that game) and their own games, to Darwinia.
In my opinion, any digital distribution would be better than some of the naff deals T17 seem to have had with their publishers, plus it'd bring a much higher amount of income to T17 (in theory). W3D was rushed out with bugs because Sony Europe said so. Worms Forts was the same. W4 was given time and support to be made without bugs, but the Starforce protection hampered sales. I wish I'd known more about it before I'd bought W4 - then I wouldn't have bought it, even though I loved the game.

Plasma
21 Sep 2006, 18:09
Half-Life1, Half-Life Opposing Force, Half-Life Blue Shift and Half-Life Counterstrike aren't small games?
I was referring more towards distributing by Streamas a replacement of distributing traditionally.

Syc0
21 Sep 2006, 18:21
I'm just looking forward to the updates that are in store for w:a. I would love to see a new 2d worms, but I doubt that'll ever happen. They hired David to work on w:a for the sole reason of keeping the 2d worm fans happy and that was a very good move in my opinion. Just wait for the next few updates, and w:a will be like a whole new game anyways :).

Plasma
21 Sep 2006, 18:26
I'm just looking forward to the updates that are in store for w:a. I would love to see a new 2d worms, but I doubt that'll ever happen. They hired David to work on w:a for the sole reason of keeping the 2d worm fans happy and that was a very good move in my opinion. Just wait for the next few updates, and w:a will be like a whole new game anyways :).
Nope. Team17 didn't hire David to make W:A better, he did it voluntarily. Team17 don't pay him anything.
Although, IIRC, they did make him an honourary teamster.

KRD
21 Sep 2006, 18:41
Exactly how do you imagine he got the source code, then, if he wasn't hired? Hax!
Hey, Conner. Come back to us!

deadman_uk
22 Sep 2006, 00:25
I'm just looking forward to the updates that are in store for w:a. I would love to see a new 2d worms, but I doubt that'll ever happen. They hired David to work on w:a for the sole reason of keeping the 2d worm fans happy and that was a very good move in my opinion. Just wait for the next few updates, and w:a will be like a whole new game anyways :).
So what exacty will these updates contain?

franpa
22 Sep 2006, 00:26
http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27612 and more then likely other things will be included.... that is a list of what is in the soon to be released update... for a complete change log view the readme with-in the update self extracting archive.

iamgood
22 Sep 2006, 13:30
Yeah, Valve has distributed all sorts of games over steam, from Red Orchestra (woot I love that game) and their own games, to Darwinia.
In my opinion, any digital distribution would be better than some of the naff deals T17 seem to have had with their publishers, plus it'd bring a much higher amount of income to T17 (in theory). W3D was rushed out with bugs because Sony Europe said so. Worms Forts was the same. W4 was given time and support to be made without bugs, but the Starforce protection hampered sales. I wish I'd known more about it before I'd bought W4 - then I wouldn't have bought it, even though I loved the game.
Exactly my point! And don't tell me Ubisoft is a "smaller" company! It's them who are developing Dark Messiah, wich is, as I said before, being distributed through Steam!
(oh and talking about Dark Messiah, I played the demo, and it's really good!)

deadman_uk
30 Sep 2006, 05:21
http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27612 and more then likely other things will be included.... that is a list of what is in the soon to be released update... for a complete change log view the readme with-in the update self extracting archive.
Of course updates are good but that doesnt come close to what I would like and what I mentioned above. I guess I will have to keep waiting.

Evil Bunny
30 Sep 2006, 12:32
in the soon to be released update...
The what? There is no soon to be released update, there is no later to be released update. Deadcode lost interest in worms and that more likely then not means there will never be any more updates.

bonz
30 Sep 2006, 14:20
The what? There is no soon to be released update, there is no later to be released update. Deadcode lost interest in worms and that more likely then not means there will never be any more updates.
Ehrm... no.

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