Rope Knocking and the Leader in Shopper [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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gnardogjay
23 Jul 2008, 18:53
In a ktl shopping game: If a wormer rope knocks the leader into second place does that wormer (in the same turn) attack who was leader at the start of the turn or the new leader from the middle of the turn? I have always believed for years now that it is the leader at the start of the turn that must be attacked regardless of rope knocking or shotgunning.

franpa
24 Jul 2008, 08:35
Attack the worm that became the leader during your turn.

yakuza
24 Jul 2008, 09:08
Franpa you're completely wrong, surprise surprise. The leader is the one that was leader just before your turn started. There's reasons for this, for one, there's the dual shot weapons, the SG and the bow. It makes little sense for you to go off your rope to shotgun the leader, and that after your first shot he isn't leader anymore and you have to hit the new leader which might not be possible, as we consider both bullets as one turn, and not viceversa.
If we draw the line were Franpa proposes, that we have to hit the leader who is leader in real time then we'd end up with a bunch of cowing. Like a banana drop were the first explosion makes the leader last, and the remaining bananas hit him, you'd have to call that a cow.

franpa
24 Jul 2008, 09:24
The shotgun example is good, but the banana bomb one isnt simply because the clusters are a part of the weapon. maybe with the Super Banana Bomb you can count it as a cow, because you have control over the 2nd phase of the weapon.

bonz
24 Jul 2008, 10:07
Attack the leader from the start of the turn!
Aside from the good example of the two-shot weapons, there's also the rope.
Only if you get off the rope and stop moving will the time stop to deduct the damage to your enemy. If you keep roping, the leader will still show the energy from the start of the round.
The shotgun example is good, but the banana bomb one isnt simply because the clusters are a part of the weapon. maybe with the Super Banana Bomb you can count it as a cow, because you have control over the 2nd phase of the weapon.
There is no damage deduction between the first bomb and the clusters of any banana bomb.
So it doesn't matter whether you can control the super version or not.
With the shotgun and the bow the damage gets deducted immediately, thus changing leaders during a turn.
Also, with the other F3 weapons you could aim away after the first bullets hit, so you technically have control, but yet again, no damage deduction between each bullet hit.

[UFP]Ghost
24 Jul 2008, 12:28
2 things:
1. I made this very thread a while back...the conclusion was that you must attack the leader at the beginning of the game.
2. Also even if you have to attack the leader, doesn't that eman that if you hit him with your first shotgun shot that the second can go anywhere as long as you've shot him. similar to a shot on a pile(but different due to the difference in weapon style)?

M3ntal
24 Jul 2008, 13:16
It's the leader at the start of the turn. It has always been the leader at the start of the turn.

bonz
24 Jul 2008, 14:01
Ghost;661845']2. Also even if you have to attack the leader, doesn't that eman that if you hit him with your first shotgun shot that the second can go anywhere as long as you've shot him. similar to a shot on a pile(but different due to the difference in weapon style)?
It is the same as a pile.
Only that the 2-shot weapons allow you much more easily to hit different worms.
Easier as dropping cows from the rope on multiple targets, for example.

[UFP]Ghost
24 Jul 2008, 21:08
It is the same as a pile.
Only that the 2-shot weapons allow you much more easily to hit different worms.
Easier as dropping cows from the rope on multiple targets, for example.
That was my point lol, that it was the same. sorry for not making that clear. I didn't mean to make a question mark, i posted this a few minutes after i woke up.

Gnork
30 Jul 2008, 16:23
erm... the question was about a ropeknock - not about an attack.
If I recall well, some old rule in my mind tells me, if you knock the leader but you don't release from the rope (so the health points are not recalculated) then he will still be the leader to attack. However, if you release the rope while you knocked him, and health deduction makes somebody else the leader, then you will HAVE to go for that other worm. This is the penalty you have to pay for loosing the rope control with your knock.
As for multishot weapons: if you shoot a worm with arrows, both arrows have to hit the worm, else it's considered a cow*.
anyway - ktl in shopper sux, so just play abl and u never have to worry about such silly questions like this one.
* source: http://wormscc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2597

yakuza
30 Jul 2008, 16:26
erm... the question was about a ropeknock - not about an attack.
If I recall well, some old rule in my mind tells me, if you knock the leader but you don't release from the rope (so the health points are not recalculated) then he will still be the leader to attack. However, if you release the rope while you knocked him, and health deduction makes somebody else the leader, then you will HAVE to go for that other worm. This is the penalty you have to pay for loosing the rope control with your knock.
As for multishot weapons: if you shoot a worm with arrows, both arrows have to hit the worm, else it's considered a cow*.
anyway - ktl in shopper sux, so just play abl and u never have to worry about such silly questions like this one.
* source: http://wormscc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2597
You recall wrong or you played with peolpe on a very small and irrelevant circle.
I'm not sure you followed the conversation but we started talking about different weapons to prove the point. You, on the other hand, have used no argumentation.
For the record, control is always lost when knocking, I'm not sure you know what you're talking about there about having to take a penalty for that, since it's always the case. That is, given you don't knock of a cliff, start chuting, and then rope from chute. Because that involves a second weapon.
I don't want to put down your circle of WA friends. All I'm saying is that when a situation like this arises we should go by what the most transcendental members of the community do.
edit: missed you added a source. On that, you have to take into account that WormsCC is an extremly noobish place, compared to other general community centers WA has had, be it WACL, CL2K or whatever. WWP is not to be trusted with any decisions made to schemes, gameplay or whatever. Like I already said, if WormsCC, yourself and the WWP tribe was to be trusted, it would set a precedent that would have to be translated to all weapons: the shotgun, the bow, and even the cluster bomb or any multiproyectile weapons, and since no one calls out a cow for hitting teamX (who happens to be first) with a cluster grenade and then hitting that same guy, teamX (who happens to be last after the cluster grenade explosion) with the cluster mini bombs, which you have no control on.
Best case to follow here is to act based on whos first before you start your turn and there's really no reason or case to argue this. Not in theory and not in practice.

Gnork
30 Jul 2008, 18:22
You recall wrong or you played with peolpe on a very small and irrelevant circle.
and some rant
Yes, it's ugly hot 30C with high humidity and it's hard to think today - I see I should have used different words to say what I actually meant to say. No need to go off like that on me just for some little words. I wasn't declaring a war or something. Now u made me not even want to correct myself in the words above. too hot today.
pfff... here we go again
The guy was right ok? Just my 2 cents. He ropeknocks leader and lands with him on the floor so that worm gets time to loose the health? PHAIL. Then he needs to go for the new leader if there is one. <- Reason? Because besides taking the long route by landing first, aiming and attaching rope again blabla etcetera, there is ALSO a way to both ropeknock AND attack him after that WITHOUT the worm having to loose health in between. Quick way wins, slow way makes you pay for your phailure, so you have to find the new leader.
That's just the way it was taught to me by djoszee and lostboy back in those days, and it sounded like a fair rule to me. Besides, everybody I knew played that way - so call it friends habits or noobish behaviour from wwp, whatever.
edit *cough cough nice topic with old clan sites. It must have accidentally slipped through your routine to add www.clandarkmatter.co.uk to that HUGE list... or is our clan not old enough for you? :)

Clavius_SA
30 Jul 2008, 19:23
Blow stuff up.

GreeN
30 Jul 2008, 20:00
You're a speedy typist, yakuza :P

yakuza
30 Jul 2008, 21:26
Yes, it's ugly hot 30C with high humidity and it's hard to think today - I see I should have used different words to say what I actually meant to say. No need to go off like that on me just for some little words. I wasn't declaring a war or something. Now u made me not even want to correct myself in the words above. too hot today.
pfff... here we go again
The guy was right ok? Just my 2 cents. He ropeknocks leader and lands with him on the floor so that worm gets time to loose the health? PHAIL. Then he needs to go for the new leader if there is one. <- Reason? Because besides taking the long route by landing first, aiming and attaching rope again blabla etcetera, there is ALSO a way to both ropeknock AND attack him after that WITHOUT the worm having to loose health in between. Quick way wins, slow way makes you pay for your phailure, so you have to find the new leader.
That's just the way it was taught to me by djoszee and lostboy back in those days, and it sounded like a fair rule to me. Besides, everybody I knew played that way - so call it friends habits or noobish behaviour from wwp, whatever.
edit *cough cough nice topic with old clan sites. It must have accidentally slipped through your routine to add www.clandarkmatter.co.uk to that HUGE list... or is our clan not old enough for you? :)
Djoszee? Are you having a laugh? If people in WA, people who've played the game for a decade, clans that have been alive for longer than WWP has would follow your advice then perhaps you would have a point about transcendency. But you don't. Djoszee? For real? Come on. DM? Come on!
Seriously, give it up. Your argumentation has no logic. Rules need to be as universal as possible. If your rule had any logic behind it before a couple of Shopper clans deciding upon it without any serious thought then we'd have to revise the Shotgun, the Bow, etc. But we don't. Because that's how we play, because it makes sense that way, and anything other would be complicating things just for the sake of doing so. Your argument "that's how they taught me" might be fair enough for you, and your people, but when you looked up to those people that taught you the rules, we we're in WA playing Shopper since half a decade. And since this is the WA forum, I'm telling the guy what he needs to know, what the people that matter think. You're free to explain the differences with the WWP shopping commitee, but please, don't try to sell your crap as generic, specially when you don't have any argumentation as to why it makes sense.
And I could even elaborate even further claiming that rope knocking FD isn't even relevant to the rule structure. You can knock the last team down a cliff and make him lose damage just for the sake of it, you can ignore the CBA rule to knock some worm into the water and win the game. See? More points that prove that your reasoning, or WWP's Shopper Fanboys reasoning is nothing but unpractical crap that makes no logical sense.
Oh look, more scenarios. I knock leader down a cliff. Don't shoot rope fast enough. He loses damage and becomes last. So I knock a mine near him to finish him off. Or even better, I knock the mine before the damage appears, and the mines goes off, and while it's beeping the numbers from the FD appear, and then he's last, but then the mine explodes. Head burning yet? Go ask your WWP elders what they think about this scenario, it might help them realize that next time they feel like coming up with crap rules to give it some time to think about the possible outputs, and choose the practical way. Or you know, they could have just sticked with the WA rules, instead of adding crap to the schemes.
Look, I don't want to burst your bubble, WWP might appeal to some people, and I accept that, but the fact that you refuse to understand the logic behind the rule "Leader is whoever is leader before you start your turn" is really annoying me.

[UFP]Ghost
30 Jul 2008, 21:36
I'm going to have to agree with Yakuza here on the general point. The way it works online as a general rule is that the leader at the beginning is the leader you attack. It would be a completely different game if your rule is applied. Aside form arguing why it's a bad idea (which I believe it is), it simply is not the general acknowledged rule. Your free to host games with this rule if you'd like but the majority of wormnet doesn't agree with you.

franpa
31 Jul 2008, 06:42
I side with Gnork, which would be why this issue never arose during our games :)

KRD
31 Jul 2008, 16:28
Rules invented on WWP have ruined schemes much more important than Shopper in the past, so I find it hard to take this specific situation very seriously. I'd tell you, Gnork, to take that as a warning, but then there's not much left to ruin in Shopper, is there? I mean it's been bástardised into WxW by those same simple-minded people already.
Nice one persuading 7 other people into voting for your option in the poll, oh great DM clan. :rolleyes:
Also KRD, most of those votes were already there before he posted. He made the 7th vote, and I made the 8th. Nice try, though.
What does that have to do with anything? Oh wait, my religious beliefs don't allow me to talk to people this ignorant. Never you mind.

Verisumi
31 Jul 2008, 17:28
Also KRD, most of those votes were already there before he posted. He made the 7th vote, and I made the 8th. Nice try, though.

CyberShadow
31 Jul 2008, 18:11
That's enough.

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