Point system for leaderboards [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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chachi
16 Jun 2007, 00:47
Ok, I've seen this asked a few times, but not actually answered.
What is the specific breakdown of how many points you earn in a ranked match? How many points do I get for a kill? How much for damage? How much for setting off mines? How much for blowing up barrels and crates? Is there different point amounts for 2nd or 3rd place, or only if you get the win? Points for getting awards at the end of the match?
Someone online in a game told me there was a site that had the breakdown of these #'s, but I've been searching for days and haven't been able to find anything. If someone knows that site and could point me to it, or knows the answers to my questions that'd be great.

Wormetti
18 Jun 2007, 09:55
So far no challenge times of 0:00 (since the update) but it looks like the Ranked Ongoing leaderboard still has glitches. Rixu has a score of 1,894,385,600. Played 12 Won: 6 Kills 23 Damage 3518. Now tell me how that equals 1.8 million :)

Spadge
18 Jun 2007, 11:03
Yeah, we're still not quite sure what's causing those problems... it happens very, very infrequently.

cngodles
20 Jun 2007, 17:35
Still, nobody will explain the points!

Spadge
20 Jun 2007, 20:39
I will when I dig the doc out...

Cubos
21 Jun 2007, 12:37
Yeah a points breakdown would be sweet.
How many did i get for that quad kill the other day? :)
Utter poetry it was.

Kingdangle
29 Jun 2007, 11:44
I have asked that question a fair few times now, still with no joy. While i appreciate the hard work that Team 17 has done thus far and are more than likely still doing, it just seems that for some strange reason they wont release the points breakdown. Its very strange.
I mean the game has been up and running now for a few months. Ok so getting into games was the only thing that ****ed me off when it was released but it seems that most if not all the glitches has been fixed. I love the game and applaud Team 17 for the great work they have done achieveing all this as I dreamed this day would come when i could pit my wormage skills against the best of them.
BUT come on guys, you say you have to 'dig out a document'. I am sure it would take no time at all to post this info that im sure most if not all wormers playing online want to see.

AndrewTaylor
29 Jun 2007, 11:57
BUT come on guys, you say you have to 'dig out a document'. I am sure it would take no time at all to post this info that im sure most if not all wormers playing online want to see.
Nah, it'll take some time. And there are a lot of requests for stuff on the forum and then there's, you know, actual work to be done. Give it time, and poke Spadge if it seems like he's forgotten, and you'll probably get your answer.
Unless you want a patch for Worms Forts.

Spadge
29 Jun 2007, 14:34
I have asked that question a fair few times now, still with no joy. While i appreciate the hard work that Team 17 has done thus far and are more than likely still doing, it just seems that for some strange reason they wont release the points breakdown. Its very strange.
I mean the game has been up and running now for a few months. Ok so getting into games was the only thing that ****ed me off when it was released but it seems that most if not all the glitches has been fixed. I love the game and applaud Team 17 for the great work they have done achieveing all this as I dreamed this day would come when i could pit my wormage skills against the best of them.
BUT come on guys, you say you have to 'dig out a document'. I am sure it would take no time at all to post this info that im sure most if not all wormers playing online want to see.
A precise break-down won't really help you. As stated previously (on another thread) there is an algorithm used which generates a score based on:
Number of games completed
Number of games won
The ratio of completed:won
The amount of damage you've done
The amount of kills you've scored
We tried to come up with something that was fair, took into account the amount of games played (and the win-lose ratio) but didn't rely on either (i.e. person who plays most simply wins as is the case elsewhere).
The Tru-Skill stuff is a Microsoft calculation and is somewhat bewildering :)
There are still a few odd things going on with the scoring, we're still not quite sure what's happening there since in 99.9% of cases, scores and points are fine and get rectified in due course.

Kingdangle
29 Jun 2007, 16:50
Spadge, Im sorry if I came accross ignorant or aggressive. Believe me, thats not what I intended. Maybe if I ask you a few questions first, it may help me out a little better.
1) Do you know if you get more points for kills than damage?
e.g. Is it better to punch a single worm of the edge or dynamite 3 worms together (not talking strategy here, remember points only)
2) Is it better to cause as much damage as possible, as many kills as possible or go darkside, and get the win?
3) Has beating anyone above you, benefit you in any way?
4) Does blowing up mines and barrels inprove or take away points from you?

Spadge
29 Jun 2007, 17:11
No points 3 and 4.
The main drivers are games played and the ratio of wins and losses.
Kills and damage add to your score, but obviously the more you play, the more points you get from that.

Haoshiro
2 Jul 2007, 15:36
Just a suggestion for future worm titles: you might look into how official Chess tournament scoring/ranking works and figure out a way to mimic that as Halo did.
This might work more like TruSkill, I'm not sure. But essentially, every player starts of with a base score, say 1000, then this score drops or raises if a player loses - and depending on the score of the person they lost to. You'd lose more points if you lost to someone with a lower rank, at the same time, you would gain a lot more points if you beat someone ranked much higher then you.
The Chess system has been around for a long time and designed so that the highest ranking players really are the best players - not just the ones that practice the most. :)

Kingdangle
2 Jul 2007, 15:41
Well if the guys at Team 17 know then why not share the information with all us guys who have actually 'paid' to get the game to compete. I mean if I know shotgunning a guy off the edge is going to get me more points that punching him off then that makes the choice easier for me.
The guys at Bungie were able to do a great job in explaining there scoring system, and let me tell you it is not the easiest system that i have ever seen but boy is it fair. And not only that it explains things about scoring and ranking in the game, so people have more of an idea while playing it.
Again I am taking nothing away from the work you have done so far. Worms is enjoyable for me and I like to play it when I get the chance. But the time has come for Team 17 to deliver. I am sure I am not the first person to ask you for this as indeed I wasnt as it wasnt even me who made the thread.
I am just speaking out for the majority of wormers out there that want to know where they stand when it comes to scoring, ranking and trueskill online. Surely there 'must' be one. And if so, it couldnt be anymore complicated than Bungies scoring system. And if they were able to explain theres, well you see were I am going with this.
Personally you all have had plenty of time for this and I am sure if it is not released soon then it will certainly discouage me along with a lot of others from buying anymore Team17 games in the future.

cngodles
2 Jul 2007, 16:19
Would still love to see the algorithm, if that is still coming. Would be cool to make a page that allowed you to enter those 5 variables, and have it spit out the score.

Spadge
2 Jul 2007, 16:42
Well if the guys at Team 17 know then why not share the information with all us guys who have actually 'paid' to get the game to compete. I mean if I know shotgunning a guy off the edge is going to get me more points that punching him off then that makes the choice easier for me.
The guys at Bungie were able to do a great job in explaining there scoring system, and let me tell you it is not the easiest system that i have ever seen but boy is it fair. And not only that it explains things about scoring and ranking in the game, so people have more of an idea while playing it.
Again I am taking nothing away from the work you have done so far. Worms is enjoyable for me and I like to play it when I get the chance. But the time has come for Team 17 to deliver. I am sure I am not the first person to ask you for this as indeed I wasnt as it wasnt even me who made the thread.
I am just speaking out for the majority of wormers out there that want to know where they stand when it comes to scoring, ranking and trueskill online. Surely there 'must' be one. And if so, it couldnt be anymore complicated than Bungies scoring system. And if they were able to explain theres, well you see were I am going with this.
Personally you all have had plenty of time for this and I am sure if it is not released soon then it will certainly discouage me along with a lot of others from buying anymore Team17 games in the future.
Giving you the calculation will not benefit you in the slightest.
You are scored on performance/experience as I've already discussed, this is based on experience (games played, the more the better), the win-loss ratio (obviously the higher the better), the more damage you perform (no matter HOW this is done, obviously more is better) and how many kills you perform (again, no matter how this is done).
No in-game action accounts for greater points than another, nor does beating people up or down the rankings (like Worms Armageddon did). It's about playing and winning, killing worms and causing damage. Do that and you'll score well. Don't do that and you score less. Simple as that. There's a longer calculation to ensure that people with say 10 played, 10 wins doesn't figure higher than someone with 150 played, 90 wins - and no doubt there's lots and lots of different ways we could calculate it, but we've come up with something that on balance is quite fair. It doesn't matter if a few people don't like it, because had we done it another way, some people wouldn't have liked that either.
Giving you the actual calculation will be of no benefit. An explanation of the trueskill score is on Microsoft's site and that's 100% controlled by them. I would also suggest Bungie had a LONG beta period to deliver their title (being a Microsoft company) and substantial development budget to do so.

Haoshiro
2 Jul 2007, 16:52
Spadge:
I think the main thing I would like to know for certain, is if knocking someone into the water counts only as a Kill, or if it also counts for Damage.
I've been told that knocking a worm into the water registers as No Damage. So if the worm has 100 health, putting him in the water nets you a kill, but that 100hp doesn't count in your Damage score.
Is that true?

Spadge
2 Jul 2007, 18:29
Good question, one I'll have to ask actually... :)

Kingdangle
3 Jul 2007, 10:46
Good point 'H'. btw we have to get a game soon. You are on my friends list but I must keep missing you. Give me a shout next time your on.
Sorry Spadge, I am not meaning to be one of those annoying nagging gits that argue for the sake of it as that is not what i am trying to do. I just want answers God Dammit. lol. ;-). To be fair if you answered 'H' question and posted a link to were I can find out about my true skill then that would be very helpful for me.
Oh sorry and just one question
1) If I win the match by hiding one worm and killing just one other worm at the end without creating much damage in the game, would i get as many points as say, someone who has killed 8 worms and created lots of damage but yet lost the match?

cngodles
3 Jul 2007, 19:59
Well, and I know I'm beating this to death, are certain categories better than others?
Sometimes you can play shy, and hide, and get the win, but other times you can kill 8 worms, get all sorts of damage, and still lose. I still think a simple javascript/php calculator would be cool so that people could plan ahead, like:
If I win 20 more games, I'll overtake him on the leaderboard!
Still, if it can't be done, then it can't be done. I program for a living, I'd do it.
Another idea, however impossible it would be at this point, would be to have some sort of additional break down ranking lists, like person with the most wins, most games played, most killed worms, most damage (you must count this for the achivements), etc.
I could sit here and job all day, lol. The game is actually really cool and you don't need to change anything (except underground airstrikes!).

Kingdangle
5 Jul 2007, 09:28
I love the way TEAM17 will now choose to ignore this and sweep it under the carpet. Well maybe I am in the minority although I beg to differ. But the response which I have received relating to this issue has been unacceptable and I for one will not be paying for or buying anymore TEAM17 products as a result of this total unacceptable response relating to my and other people question.
To be honest it becomes pointless having a leaderboard if you are unable to work out how the points are scored. It is too random. And it is frustrating not knowing how points are scored. IF THERE IS A CALCULATION USED WHY NOT MAKE IT COMMON KNOWLEGE TO THE WORMING COMMUNITY.
Imagine playing a football game and guys got more points for different kinds of goals but the people at konami woulnt tell them what kind of goals got better points. IT WOULD BE AS USELESS AS TITS ON A BULL.

cjc3uwm
6 Jul 2007, 03:55
HE ANSWERED THE QUESTION! But seriously, we love to hear you whine about it. Maybe you should spend more time playing and less time complaining.

Spadge
6 Jul 2007, 05:40
I love the way TEAM17 will now choose to ignore this and sweep it under the carpet. Well maybe I am in the minority although I beg to differ. But the response which I have received relating to this issue has been unacceptable and I for one will not be paying for or buying anymore TEAM17 products as a result of this total unacceptable response relating to my and other people question.
To be honest it becomes pointless having a leaderboard if you are unable to work out how the points are scored. It is too random. And it is frustrating not knowing how points are scored. IF THERE IS A CALCULATION USED WHY NOT MAKE IT COMMON KNOWLEGE TO THE WORMING COMMUNITY.
Imagine playing a football game and guys got more points for different kinds of goals but the people at konami woulnt tell them what kind of goals got better points. IT WOULD BE AS USELESS AS TITS ON A BULL.
Swept it under the carpet? You got 6 posts (now 7) from the co-founder/studio director... you've just managed to make yourself look very stupid and ignored from now on. And got this thread locked.
To repeat and in capitals: THE CALCULATION IS NOT ONE WHICH WILL MAKE ONE BLIND BIT OF DIFFERENCE. PLAY AND WIN AS MANY AS YOU CAN, MAKE KILLS AND CAUSE DAMAGE - THAT'S IT IN A NUTSHELL.

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