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Diablo vt
24 Oct 2008, 03:06
We have dud mines on the terrain at random but, wouldn't it be a good idea if we had dud mines in our arsenal? Random of course, just like the mines on the terrain. So say if I dropped a mine on a worm's head, it could either detonate or, be a dud mine. What do you think?

b1llygo4t
24 Oct 2008, 03:39
i agree, you should also be able to have mines in your inv have random det time also. these should be options

Akuryou13
24 Oct 2008, 03:47
false weapons, like the false structures in RA2, serve a wonderful purpose in many types of games. however, in a game of worms your opponent will see when and where you drop the dud. he will then try to avoid it at all costs until he finds out it's a dud. at that point he'll just look at you like you're an idiot and go about his business. a dud mine costs him absolutely nothing, but it cost you a full turn worth of possible damage. the only way to fix that issue is to make it not waste your turn, but then it's obvious which mines are fake.
dud mines would serve no purpose as a weapon in worms.

CyberShadow
24 Oct 2008, 05:27
Not if you have a limited number of "real" mines.

franpa
24 Oct 2008, 05:45
you can also fake a barrier around a narrow part of a level by putting a fake mine there ;P

Squirminator2k
24 Oct 2008, 06:20
It suffers from the same problem as the Dud Crates in Worms 2 - the unreliability factor. If there's a chance that the weapon could fail entirely, why would anyone use it?

CyberShadow
24 Oct 2008, 06:55
The idea of having a limited number of normal mines, and a larger or infinite number of dud or likely-dud mines is pretty interesting.

yakuza
24 Oct 2008, 08:10
I believe that's what you would call bad design. It's not really fun to drop a dud mine. The ilusion that you and your friends will "lol" and "lmao" at someone doing it is delusion.

franpa
24 Oct 2008, 08:20
you can use dud mines (if there treated as a seperate item like cybershadow hints at) to fool people into thiking certain areas are less safe then they really are. I don't see what you are on about Yakuza.
edit: name.

yakuza
24 Oct 2008, 08:45
Hmmmmm.
The potential of using it to fool people and then to your advantage, eg: putting a mine on a place you don't want your opponent going to but you want to access it later on.
However, the schemes that most benefit from this are default and there's just very few scenarios were blocking paths with mines is viable, there's just to many alternatives. Not only for the block itself (girder, petrol), but to avoid this block (any mine pushing weapon) and there's also very little point, 99% of the time, in blocking a place with a mine. Sure you can put them in torch tunnels so your opponent doesn't go through and then next turn you do, but this'll only work if your opponent is an idiot, really.

bonz
24 Oct 2008, 08:49
CyberShadow's idea of making the dud mine a separate weapon is indeed good.
Enemies would have to count and remember how many real mines a player has dropped.
Also, enemies might avoid areas "blocked" with a dud mine, while you could walk past anytime you want.
I think that dud mines will work best with instant or 1 second fuses, because then no one will dare trying to trigger them by walking nearby.
My opinion is that mines should be instant most of the time anyway. They lose a lot of their threat potential if the fuse is higher.
Talking about fake assets and booby traps:
Booby-trapped weapon and health crates or utility boxes could actually be used as a player controlled utility/weapon!
Player selects and area, plane flies over and para-drops the booby-trap.
Enemies must remember to not pick them up and live with the fear that someone could blast the booby trap for extra damage, so they might waste a weapon or turn time destroying the threatening booby-trap.
Dropping oil barrels with a parachute as a weapon could also work, although without the ability to pick them up (which could happen to an enemy due to bad luck with a booby-trap).

franpa
24 Oct 2008, 08:57
Player selects and area, plane flies over and para-drops the booby-trap.
would be best if it drops it between players turns ;)

bonz
24 Oct 2008, 09:13
would be best if it drops it between players turns ;)
Ah, yes! Great idea.
Maybe it could show the surrender animation and sound to the other players, followed by a crate drop before the next player's turn.
Of course, that would look very suspicious on a setting without any crate drops at all.

franpa
24 Oct 2008, 09:31
or it just doesnt show anything, theres no point in a fake if it can be distinguished from the real thing :P

bonz
24 Oct 2008, 10:07
or it just doesnt show anything, theres no point in a fake if it can be distinguished from the real thing :P
Such a booby-trap strike utility surely should use up your turn, so how would you want to make it "do nothing"?
Your turn suddenly ending before you used up your time would be a straight give-away.
There currently is no weapon/utility that carries out its effects after your turn. All weapons/utilities have an animation for the opponents to see.
You'd either have to disguise it with a different, faked animation that ends your turn, or make a such a booby trap strike not use up your turn, which might be a bit too powerful.

franpa
24 Oct 2008, 10:14
make such a booby trap strike not use up your turn, which might be a bit too powerful.
make it a super utility :P you have super weapons, why not super utilities?

bonz
24 Oct 2008, 10:23
make it a super utility :P you have super weapons, why not super utilities?
Well, however this might get implemented, I just like the idea of sending down a fake health crate to your enemy's low-health, last worm who will greedily dart for it. :D
Maybe it could be made so that you can't choose what will be dropped specifically - weapon, health or utility.
Because people will more likely try to get weapons, as they have a bigger benefit than health or utility.
Please, give us booby trap strikes!

Gnork
24 Oct 2008, 10:54
I like the idea of random mines in the arsenal. Dud mines can go with it, of course. Would be fun to drop a mine on an opponent, and it turns out to be an instant or a dud. Oops if you dropped it to close and hurt yourself too with it. Harharhar for the other players and lmfao n stuff. Afterall, people do miss with shooting zooks or nades as well, that also 'screws up their turn'.

yakuza
24 Oct 2008, 11:09
I like the idea of random mines in the arsenal. Dud mines can go with it, of course. Would be fun to drop a mine on an opponent, and it turns out to be an instant or a dud. Oops if you dropped it to close and hurt yourself too with it. Harharhar for the other players and lmfao n stuff. Afterall, people do miss with shooting zooks or nades as well, that also 'screws up their turn'.
How many people do you know that go close random mines?

Muzer
24 Oct 2008, 11:15
I don't see what you are on about Muzer.
I never posted in this thread!

franpa
24 Oct 2008, 11:21
uh, what ?
dammit, I meant yakuza, both with this post and the one you mentioned.

yakuza
24 Oct 2008, 11:37
uh, what ?
dammit, I meant yakuza, both with this post and the one you mentioned.
And I was refering to the OP, saying it's bad design if the drop was random. So now you know what "I'm on about".

franpa
24 Oct 2008, 11:58
How many people do you know that go close random mines?
The sentence makes no sense, did you leave out a 'to'?

yakuza
24 Oct 2008, 12:11
The sentence makes no sense. did you leave out a 'to'?
Your phrase makes no sense man, did you forget to capitalize "did"? Please correct it I cannot understand it.

Gnork
24 Oct 2008, 12:41
How many people do you know that go close random mines?
I eat them for breakfast. Nothing more fun than random mines. I love to trigger them, just for the kick of it - will it explode right in my worms face, or will it trigger a snowball effect and destroy my enemy? To me, schemes with default timers like '3 sec mines' or 'instant mines' are boooring cz it's no fun to play with them in the way it is with random mines. Random mines including duds are so J instead of predictable.

franpa
24 Oct 2008, 12:59
Yakuza, you can't close random mines, they are not things you want to close anyways since nothing is open for you to close :P

Akuryou13
24 Oct 2008, 14:21
Yakuza, you can't close random mines, they are not things you want to close anyways since nothing is open for you to close :Pseriously I hate yakuza as much as anyone, but if you're just going to be a petty little ass bag go do it somewhere else.
anyway, back on to the discussion here. the dud mine, as a normal mine, is what we were talking about that's useless. if you make it appear in a random group of mines then it's useful, but also identical to the CURRENT mine strike. if you make it a utility that generates mines randomly or something then it becomes extremely useful, so long as the user knows which mines are duds, but useless in that it removes the ability to target your mine's position. you can remove this by allowing the user to place the mine similar to a teleport, but then the opponent will see you moving a cursor and then a mine appearing there shortly afterwards.
I can't think of any way to make it both subtle and undetectable while still being useful and specific to your needs.

Gnork
24 Oct 2008, 14:30
I think it would be fun if the person who drops the mine also doesn't know whether it's going to be a dud or not. Let people be able to drop random mines including duds - just to add a thrill effect for those who like (and a game option to disable it for people like yakuza who don't like it) :P

Akuryou13
24 Oct 2008, 14:30
I think it would be fun if the person who drops the mine also doesn't know whether it's going to be a dud or not. Let people be able to drop random mines including duds - just to add a thrill effect for those who like (and a game option to disable it for people like yakuza who don't like it) :Pdropped mines ALREADY have the possibility of being a dud, don't they? and either way, that's an entirely different subject.
edit: we were referring to 2 different subjects. ignore this post.

Gnork
24 Oct 2008, 14:34
dropped mines ALREADY have the possibility of being a dud, don't they? and either way, that's an entirely different subject.
I've never seen a mine dropped by a worm being a dud mine... never ever. Not talking about minestrike, but about a single mine.

yakuza
24 Oct 2008, 15:05
dropped mines ALREADY have the possibility of being a dud, don't they? and either way, that's an entirely different subject.
This is why I hate theorycrafting about WA in the official WA forums, people are clueless.
Either way. No. And no, the topic is clearly about dropping dud mines with a worm. And while in theory it does have its uses in stablished schemes (and I'm not talking about Gnork's "OMG THRILL") I'm not sure it's really a worthy addition.

Akuryou13
24 Oct 2008, 15:43
This is why I hate theorycrafting about WA in the official WA forums, people are clueless.
Either way. No. And no, the topic is clearly about dropping dud mines with a worm. And while in theory it does have its uses in stablished schemes (and I'm not talking about Gnork's "OMG THRILL") I'm not sure it's really a worthy addition.ah, I mis-typed a few times here. what I was posting about was the second post as opposed to the first post. all my posts have been in regards to the idea of dud mines as a secondary weapon rather than the implementation of randomly dud mines to the normal mines.
I retract my post in response to gnork.

bonz
24 Oct 2008, 19:54
To sum this thread up we have 2 basic implementation possibilities for dropped dud mines:
The dud mine is a separate weapon and the enemy is left clueless whether it's a proper mine or a dud. (Perhaps the dud mine could be coloured or otherwise identified for the player that placed it. Or not for extra thrill for the forgetful player.)
The mines that a player can drop also contain random mines and duds (with customizable probabilities perhaps), so it's a thrill for everyone.

Gnork
24 Oct 2008, 23:27
To sum this thread up we have 2 basic implementation possibilities for dropped dud mines:
The dud mine is a separate weapon and the enemy is left clueless whether it's a proper mine or a dud. (Perhaps the dud mine could be coloured or otherwise identified for the player that placed it. Or not for extra thrill for the forgetful player.)
The mines that a player can drop also contain random mines and duds (with customizable probabilities perhaps), so it's a thrill for everyone.
My vote:
1: Boo
2: Wohoo
xD

AndrewTaylor
25 Oct 2008, 00:27
My vote:
1: Boo
2: Wohoo
xD
Your vote is wrong.
Losing on bad luck is one thing, but losing on a random number generator gives all the frustrating with really no fun to speak of. Frankly mines are very little use in the normal game anyway. I think they'd just be a bit worthless if they sometimes didn't work.
It would probably stop people using them as cheap dynamite, but grenades do that just as well since retreat time became the norm (which is also wrong).

Gnork
25 Oct 2008, 09:50
Your vote is wrong.
My vote is not WRONG. It's just not in your flavour. But it's NOT wrong. Votes can never be WRONG. They could only be not in your own personal flavour.
Losing on bad luck is one thing, but losing on a random number generator gives all the frustrating with really no fun to speak of.
Host a RR with 250 random mines sprayed out all over the place and people will be able to loose on a random number generator. Yet you'll notice a lot of laughter in the chat, also from the 'unlucky' players.
Frankly mines are very little use in the normal game anyway. I think they'd just be a bit worthless if they sometimes didn't work.
Therefore it's probably a very nice addition to have this in RubberWorm, since that tool offers people to play something else rather then a 'normal' game.

raffie
25 Oct 2008, 10:56
Can't say that I'm fond of the idea of having dud mines in the players arsenal. When T17 developped the game they had the choise of having dud mines for the players, they chose not to do that, and I think it was the right choise.
However, here's another idea. When a dud mine thats been set off in the landscape takes abuse from exploding weps next to it, or a player drills into it, or whatever abuse it takes, the mine:
- doesn't do anythig at all;
- goes off instantly;
- goes off after a random amount of time WITHOUT WARNING AT ALL.
This would make a dud mine even more challenging than a normal one!
I mean its like with the bombs found from WWII, sure, they didnt go off when they were suppose to, but I wouldnt want to be the one having a drill into them ;)

Plutonic
25 Oct 2008, 11:10
I thought you could force a dud to detonate? At least, I used to do that in the mission on the WA demo... or is that only with non-dud or pre-dud mines?

Muzer
25 Oct 2008, 11:14
I thought you could force a dud to detonate? At least, I used to do that in the mission on the WA demo... or is that only with non-dud or pre-dud mines?
Fail, that was disabled. You used to be able to do it if you got a mine inside a worm in the right frame, which happened mostly when you had a dud mine, then a worm, and you baseball batted the dud mine into the work in front.

Gnork
25 Oct 2008, 11:23
However, here's another idea. When a dud mine thats been set off in the landscape takes abuse from exploding weps next to it, or a player drills into it, or whatever abuse it takes, the mine:
- doesn't do anythig at all;
- goes off instantly;
- goes off after a random amount of time WITHOUT WARNING AT ALL.
hmmm dud mines going off and it's not turn time based, yummie

AndrewTaylor
25 Oct 2008, 15:33
My vote is not WRONG. It's just not in your flavour. But it's NOT wrong. Votes can never be WRONG. They could only be not in your own personal flavour.
Do relax, that's just my way.
Anyhow, I can't help but think weapons whose operation is random are a bad thing. Environmental randomness, like terrain, crates, wind, and so forth is fair enough -- that's what you need to make each game different -- but if I don't know how much (if any) damage it will do, that's not much use to me. I don't recall ever using the Lottery Strike in W3D. I couldn't see why I would do that. The sheep were bad enough, and they're totally deterministic (I think).

bonz
25 Oct 2008, 19:57
AT has a point there with random mines in the arsenal.
I'd guess people will use the mine less and less, thus hosters won't use that option less and less.
My vote goes to the first suggestion with the dud mine as separate weapon.
And because CS is already fond of that idea, it's also more likely to show up in the game. :D

franpa
26 Oct 2008, 01:15
I enjoy the occasional random game, granted that was only with booby trapped crates... played a ****load of Worms 2 games offline with family and no one ever complained about booby trapped crates for like 3 years.

b1llygo4t
26 Oct 2008, 09:35
everything should have a chance of being a dud, even the little bombs from morters and the gay red grenade. you should be able to turn that on and off. anything thats a dud should be able to be blown up by an explosion or fire. more stuff should create fire. there should be a fire strike(edit:im a dumb ass, or drunk, or both). fire should melt frozen worms damn it, it just makes sense.
having the option for inventory mines to be random timed or dud is gold
adding another weapon that is a dud mine mine is tactful.
as far as the trap crates, you could hide the pointer from everyone else and have the screen stay on the worm. then when you fire the weapon you drop a dud mine. that way you could make it look like a failed attack, and end your turn. then between turns the crate drops. you could even add an option to increase the amount of turns it waits to drop, so you could target a particular player, and further mask the attack
im with gnork on the random chaos thing. dealing with the unexpected makes you good. hell there should be random mine drops that wont drop on a worm for fairness. and debris that bounces around and hits worms
some people like chess. some like sorry. i like both. and risk to.

KRD
26 Oct 2008, 11:04
there should be a fire strike.
I stopped reading there.

franpa
26 Oct 2008, 11:18
yea, theres a thing known as "napalm strike"

b1llygo4t
26 Oct 2008, 11:19
ha HA, there is. woohoo

bonz
26 Oct 2008, 12:36
everything should have a chance of being a dud
That goes way too far.
We don't want unexploded MB bombs or donkeys staying on the on the terrain. :p
Dud mines are ok, since they are the only weapons that are able to deal damage outside of the turn they were used.
(Only for the petrol bomb I could imagine adding the feature to place it on the ground without bursting, practically making it a portable oil barrel.)
as far as the trap crates, you could hide the pointer from everyone else and have the screen stay on the worm.
Well, it's quite obvious that it has to be this way.
then when you fire the weapon you drop a dud mine. that way you could make it look like a failed attack, and end your turn.
Useless.
Making the worm skip its turn when using a booby trap strike is much less obvious.
In fact, I often skip my turn when I was AFK and came back with only a few seconds left.
Or if I have no chance of a hit with my reduces arsenal.
Who would believe you anyway if you'd suddenly drop a (dud) mine in your perfectly save underground hideout?
you could even add an option to increase the amount of turns it waits to drop
Good idea.
Perhaps by pressing the key 1-5 to deliver it in the respective amount of turns.
(edit:im a dumb ass, or drunk, or both)
Don't drink and post!
Only moderating works.

b1llygo4t
26 Oct 2008, 12:41
Don't drink and post!
Only moderating works.
ha HA! mabe so...
and yeah some weps would suck being duds. but most normal weps would work. options are always good

franpa
26 Oct 2008, 12:47
That goes way too far.
We don't want unexploded MB bombs or donkeys staying on the on the terrain.
Why else do some people use the concrete donkey as there grave?

bonz
26 Oct 2008, 12:54
Why else do some people use the concrete donkey as there grave?
Yes, but a donkey grave doesn't suddenly wake up when shot and dig an abysmal hole.

Gnork
26 Oct 2008, 23:56
blabla donkeys
a dud donkey? 0o

Mablak
27 Oct 2008, 06:41
WA should have a dud everything. Imagine tossing a b-bomb to scare the pants off your opponent, only for them to find out that it's a dud a few seconds later! Or using a jetpack to finish someone off, but at the end of the turn it's revealed that it was a dud and your worm never really moved! Winning a game of worms should be based on how much you psych-out your opponents, it's the only way we can maximize fun levels in this new thrill-seeking age of worms.
To facilitate the psych-out process though, WA will have to incorporate thumb clamps that monitor your heart rate, a sudden jump implying that you have been totally psyched out. But there is a slight problem, because cheaters would then resort to performance enhancing drugs that slow down their heart rates, and trust me, they're easy drugs to find, growing more popular with each day. So I propose the obvious solution: Team17 should perform international drug tests on a weekly basis, on the entire worms community. We would just need to get our local doctors to send the results of our urine and blood samples to the official Team17 Health Clinic each week. Or they could send the samples directly, I don't really know which is preferable, that's a decision we should leave to the pros at the T17HC.

bonz
27 Oct 2008, 11:42
a dud donkey? 0o
Yeah, it looks like your ordinary Device Of Doom, but miraculously behaves like a huge, concrete garden ornament.
What a strange thought. :rolleyes:

yakuza
27 Oct 2008, 11:52
WA should have a dud everything. Imagine tossing a b-bomb to scare the pants off your opponent, only for them to find out that it's a dud a few seconds later! Or using a jetpack to finish someone off, but at the end of the turn it's revealed that it was a dud and your worm never really moved! Winning a game of worms should be based on how much you psych-out your opponents, it's the only way we can maximize fun levels in this new thrill-seeking age of worms.
To facilitate the psych-out process though, WA will have to incorporate thumb clamps that monitor your heart rate, a sudden jump implying that you have been totally psyched out. But there is a slight problem, because cheaters would then resort to performance enhancing drugs that slow down their heart rates, and trust me, they're easy drugs to find, growing more popular with each day. So I propose the obvious solution: Team17 should perform international drug tests on a weekly basis, on the entire worms community. We would just need to get our local doctors to send the results of our urine and blood samples to the official Team17 Health Clinic each week. Or they could send the samples directly, I don't really know which is preferable, that's a decision we should leave to the pros at the T17HC.
You overcomplicate things. In Worms 6 Dice edition for the PS3 you roll a dice at the begining of each turn and depending on the number the Worm will do one thing or another, from jumping into the water (getting a 1) from throwing armageddon (6), this is a new level of whole family involvement influenced by nintendo wii's movement "even retards can play our games®"

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