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Lei
10 Jan 2011, 14:34
Hey fellas!...
I remembered seeing a crazy suggestion thread a while back, and I thought why not post one (again). Running out of points for the feedback site. xD
Anyway, I was thinking it would be awesome if it was allowed to allow placing
spots where water would be located in-game.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6923/drown2.png
1. Map-making screen: during the map creation process could be substituted by a certain standardized color which would be converted to water in-game. The space will need a minimum height (and width?).
2. Screenshot with minimal background.
3. Screenshot with full background.
I thought this would add even more depth to both map-making and playing strategically; could even add more fun when we can finally make our own missions. :D
One problem that I see here: 'what happens to worms that drown on those spaces of water?'
The only solution I thought about that so far was to implement it similar to how it was done in W:R. IIRC, there would be some sort of shrinking animation for the drowning worm.
Anyway, what do you guys think? :DDDD

jsgnext
10 Jan 2011, 16:18
That looks like a LOT of coding....and I dont know if its even possible....
Apart from that, if the terrain that holds the water (or pool) is destroyed.....that would look odd...

Rodent
10 Jan 2011, 16:43
Apart from coding, solution is that water can be place only on indestructible part of map :)
Anyway nice idea Lei. Worm can reach the bottom and then use exploding device to turn into grave if nothing else :)

CyberShadow
10 Jan 2011, 16:57
What about projectiles and animals?
(Also, no one can nor is going to draw new sprites for W:A that can have a quality and consistency good enough to be included in the game, so you may as well abandon any ideas that involve new animations.)

Lei
10 Jan 2011, 17:51
...if the terrain that holds the water (or pool) is destroyed.....that would look odd...
Forgot to mention that.. Rodent is right tho.
What about projectiles and animals?
(Also, no one can nor is going to draw new sprites for W:A that can have a quality and consistency good enough to be included in the game, so you may as well abandon any ideas that involve new animations.)
Projectiles and animals... something I did not think through... they already have a drowning animation, so that leaves the final part just like worms.
May I ask then, in theory, if we Did have someone who could draw those sprites while maintaining quality and consistency (animation included), would this be doable? And in that respect, would it be completely okay with Team17 if those new sprites were incorporated? :D

DarkLord22
10 Jan 2011, 18:26
One problem that I see here: 'what happens to worms that drown on those spaces of water?'
Well, all sprites already have a drowning animation, so just that until the sprite gets to the bottom of the "pool" and then just disappear. On the other hand, you could just have the sprites automatically sink like when objects fall into a blackhole (rubberworm).
In both cases, no new animations need to be created right?

CyberShadow
10 Jan 2011, 18:56
May I ask then, in theory, if we Did have someone who could draw those sprites while maintaining quality and consistency (animation included), would this be doable? And in that respect, would it be completely okay with Team17 if those new sprites were incorporated? :DUnknown. Team17 would prefer to be very careful about additions to W:A, especially when they may conflict with current and future products.

Thurbo
10 Jan 2011, 19:02
(Also, no one can nor is going to draw new sprites for W:A that can have a quality and consistency good enough to be included in the game, so you may as well abandon any ideas that involve new animations.)
lol, how about the death animations of Worms 2? If you slow down the fall-back-on-the-ground animation, it might look acceptable. Making the worm vanish (as in recent Worms games) or explode shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Lei
10 Jan 2011, 19:33
Unknown. Team17 would prefer to be very careful about additions to W:A, especially when they may conflict with current and future products.
:(
lol, how about the death animations of Worms 2? If you slow down the fall-back-on-the-ground animation, it might look acceptable. Making the worm vanish (as in recent Worms games) or explode shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Interesting... might you have a screenie? XD

CyberShadow
10 Jan 2011, 19:44
lol, how about the death animations of Worms 2? If you slow down the fall-back-on-the-ground animation, it might look acceptable. Making the worm vanish (as in recent Worms games) or explode shouldn't be that much of a problem.
Yes, but that animation starts from the standing sprite, not the sinking worm sprite.

Nando
10 Jan 2011, 20:46
You could just make them drown the same way as when drowning normally at the bottom. Make it behave as though the bottom of the part containing additional water were the bottom of the screen/overall map. So the drowning worm/projectile/etc. would seem to disappear behind whatever part of terrain is below the additional water.
(DarkLord22 has already pointed out this possibility... but it hasn't really been commented on yet, and the other suggestions sound kind of ridiculous :p)
Anyway, seems like a fun idea, but I'm not quite sure if it's worth the effort involved. :(

Lei
10 Jan 2011, 21:02
Probably the reason why any solution involving a worm merely disappearing is not good enough because it will seem awkward and 'unrealistic' (even if we are playing a game where annelids are killing each other using insane objects).
Anyway, maybe we can make use of the 'pop' animation used in some of the missions (crates appearing out of nowhere instead of usual parachute drop).
Anyway, seems like a fun idea, but I'm not quite sure if it's worth the effort involved. :(
I feel you did not need to say this, friend. I'd take any positive possibility/change/update we can have in WA, big or small, it can lead to something a lot bigger and more interesting in the future. :]

Thurbo
10 Jan 2011, 22:10
Yes, but that animation starts from the standing sprite, not the sinking worm sprite.
You could use the animation from the moment on the worm stretches... it's rather fast thus it doesn't look wrong I think.
Could look like this:
http://250kb.de/u/110110/g/TzYhXLMjUftF.gif

Lei
10 Jan 2011, 22:15
^COOL! Makes me wanna check out the older titles. O_O

CyberShadow
10 Jan 2011, 22:17
That looks pretty good.
(There's still the question of animals and other sinkables.)

Thurbo
10 Jan 2011, 23:31
I think the simpliest solution would be to make all objects shrink once they touch the bottom, as in the "3rd generation" games. This wouldn't require any new sprites either, since you just had to resize some existing ones.
Anyway, maybe we can make use of the 'pop' animation used in some of the missions (crates appearing out of nowhere instead of usual parachute drop).
This doesn't sound bad either ;)
Apart from this issue, do you think this feature could possibly be implemented, if you find time to do it and if it's codeable? I'd really love to see it :)

Lei
10 Jan 2011, 23:42
Would love to know that as well. TY for your invaluable suggestions Thurbo. xD

CyberShadow
10 Jan 2011, 23:51
Yes, but we have a really long list of other really cool features we want to implement first (http://worms2d.info/4).

bonz
11 Jan 2011, 00:36
In addition to shrinking, animals could simply disappear in a puff of smoke or any of the other many trail/particle sprites.
Maybe first one of those bubbles, then a small puff of green gas.
Unknown. Team17 would prefer to be very careful about additions to W:A, especially when they may conflict with current and future products.
Hmm...
How old does Worms Reloaded need to get until we can see sentries and magnets in WA? :D

Lei
11 Jan 2011, 00:55
Hmm...
How old does Worms Reloaded need to get until we can see sentries and magnets in WA? :D
+1. Weeee! xD

Thurbo
11 Jan 2011, 01:09
Hmm...
How old does Worms Reloaded need to get until we can see sentries and magnets in WA? :D
Actually, those were first introduced in 2007, with Open Warfare 2. However, I've just read through the list of planned features, and a couple of them seem to be based on WR, so where's the problem anyway? :)

CyberShadow
11 Jan 2011, 01:16
However, I've just read through the list of planned features, and a couple of them seem to be based on WR, so where's the problem anyway? :)They are?

Thurbo
11 Jan 2011, 01:47
Aren't they? I thought so. For instance, some of the new possibilities in the landscape editor, such as placing Worms and other objects manually, switch between vertical and horizontal maps, layers etc.

CyberShadow
11 Jan 2011, 01:52
Those ideas are trivial and could apply to any Worms game. Anyone could have thought of them before Worms Reloaded (or even W:A) was released.
Furthermore, that page doesn't specifically list landscape/portrait orientations (arbitrary level size is the way to go, and we've been thinking about that ever since 3.6.28.0 added arbitrary-size colour maps), and Worms Reloaded doesn't have layers (only a "flag" indicating solidity).

Explorer
11 Jan 2011, 12:22
I have some opinions about this.
1. I personally don't believe this will be in the official version (4.x), since the idea would change the game logic tremendously. There is still possibility to code an extension, however.
2. No new sprite should be definitely needed for this idea. Just use old sprites, and when they reaches the bottom of the "water tank", they could simply disappear.
3. If the tank (the terrain) would be breakable, the calculation of the waterfall animation would be difficult to make, I guess. (The waterfall must be dynamically generated since the breaking hole could be anywhere.)

Lex
11 Jan 2011, 13:17
Why not just use per-pixel water physics? I don't really condone spending a lot of effort on this, but physics really make everything work dynamically, in general.

CyberShadow
11 Jan 2011, 13:39
Why not just use per-pixel water physics? I don't really condone spending a lot of effort on this, but physics really make everything work dynamically, in general.
1) Performance of per-pixel simulations doesn't scale well, it'd have to be limited to relatively small areas. 2) I don't see how per-pixel water simulation can fit into the game's graphical style (particularly the existing water graphics).

bonz
11 Jan 2011, 14:13
2) I don't see how per-pixel water simulation can fit into the game's graphical style (particularly the existing water graphics).
Well, that would need to get adapted too, of course. :)

Rodent
11 Jan 2011, 15:43
Why dead animals and worms don't remain on bottom of pool? Those could act same as graves once they reach bottom. Explosion below them can blow them up a bit and then those will fall on same places again.
Problem can appear too with water rising schemes :)
btw another suggestion... adding special coding that will allow placing of eternal flames on some places of the map(could be useful in custom missions, rope racing when map maker wanna make some parts harder... etc...)
It could be implemented on the same way as water by lei's suggestion... every pixel of some special color will become flame :)
EDIT: link to discussion about persisting flames (http://feedback.worms2d.info/forums/5998-worms-armageddon/suggestions/1368359-pre-game-flames)

Drury
11 Jan 2011, 16:11
Ehm... It looks nice and all, but what's benefit from this? You'll have water tank on map. And what? It only looks cool, but in my honest opinion, it's absolutely useless and hard to code (or even imagine how it would work with destructible maps!). You could make some way to add mines or flames (or even spikes) to map instead. It's much easier to code and it works in same way. If you jump there, you're instantly dead.

Lei
11 Jan 2011, 16:31
Surely you're not limiting yourself to the given example in the original post right? o_o
Apologies if its absolutely useless..... lol. goodluck with that spike thing.

Rodent
12 Jan 2011, 00:55
I was thinking about spikes too... million times I played sonic themed shopper maps and there were spikes all around I always had impression that I should stick away from them but when fall there nothing happens... It would be nice if worm jump off it like when it sits on flame and loose certain amount of HP.
Water is totally not useless man! Maybe you can't imagine how it can be used, bu I have approximately billion ideas for schemes where it can add extra fun :)
(probably lei too since he proposed this idea :P )

Domi
12 Jan 2011, 02:01
I completely support this idea if the game developers want and think it can be implemented.
I can also think of a variety of good ideas regarding this subject.

Explorer
12 Jan 2011, 04:12
Why dead animals and worms don't remain on bottom of pool? Those could act same as graves once they reach bottom. Explosion below them can blow them up a bit and then those will fall on same places again.
Then AFAIK we will need new sprites for worms and animals lying on the bottom of the tank.
btw another suggestion... adding special coding that will allow placing of eternal flames on some places of the map(could be useful in custom missions, rope racing when map maker wanna make some parts harder... etc...)
It could be implemented on the same way as water by lei's suggestion... every pixel of some special color will become flame :)
I like this substitution.
Instead of the water tank we could have "hot pots" or "frying pans" on the map, and I would be able to see toasted worms on them. :D
EDIT: And it won't be a big problem if the frying pans get destroyed. The existing physics code in the game should handle that well, doesn't it?

Lei
12 Jan 2011, 04:24
Water is totally not useless man! Maybe you can't imagine how it can be used, bu I have approximately billion ideas for schemes where it can add extra fun :)
(probably lei too since he proposed this idea :P )
Exactly. I am just holding back on other ideas since some people tend to be too 'critical' and reject everything. ^^ Familiarity breeds contempt.
I like this substitution.
Instead of the water tank we could have "hot pots" or "frying pans" on the map, and I would be able to see toasted worms on them. :D
EDIT: And it won't be a big problem if the frying pans get destroyed. The existing physics code in the game should handle that well, doesn't it?
I like it as well, but it doesn't have to be a substitution, does it? If there was a way to have them both exist, then why not?
Let us just embrace the possibilities. Imagine surfing separate bodies of water.

Rodent
12 Jan 2011, 09:20
Then AFAIK we will need new sprites for worms and animals lying on the bottom of the tank.
No... those can be same sprites as sinking ones... just would be statick at the bottom, and put in right angle.
When you say frying pan you mean on part of the map that is totally common but takes damage when touched? :)

Lei
12 Jan 2011, 10:34
Since you guys are thinking of those things, might as well think about which sprites to use as well.
(Also, no one can nor is going to draw new sprites for W:A that can have a quality and consistency good enough to be included in the game, so you may as well abandon any ideas that involve new animations.)

bonz
12 Jan 2011, 11:42
IIRC, we would need an old version of Animo (Cambridge Animation) and the appropriate Sun Workstation that it can run on.
CS once told me the exact version and specifications respectively of those two.

GreeN
12 Jan 2011, 12:41
IIRC, we would need an old version of Animo (Cambridge Animation) and the appropriate Sun Workstation that it can run on.
CS once told me the exact version and specifications respectively of those two.
I imagine that would only be helpful if you had the original animation project files to work with.

Lex
12 Jan 2011, 14:40
We do have them.

bonz
12 Jan 2011, 15:56
While it's probably relatively easy to "acquire" the necessary old version of Animo, it'll be much more difficult to get the required hardware, which has to be in working condition and needs to be purchased.
Has anyone tried contacting Cambridge Animation?
Maybe they still have something available.
Also, can such an old Sun Sparc (I believe) be emulated on modern hardware?
The newer versions of Animo run on Windows/Macintosh hardware. Has anyone tried if they're compatible with the old files?

wowwow
12 Jan 2011, 21:56
What about projectiles and animals?
(Also, no one can nor is going to draw new sprites for W:A that can have a quality and consistency good enough to be included in the game, so you may as well abandon any ideas that involve new animations.)
What about that projectiles and animals explode with a smaller explosion radius and with no damage makable
Or maybe making them dissapearing just.
And for me , its a cool idea.

CyberShadow
12 Jan 2011, 22:08
While it's probably relatively easy to "acquire" the necessary old version of AnimoAlso, can such an old Sun Sparc (I believe) be emulated on modern hardware?SGI workstation, not SPARC. It also requires a hardware copy-protection dongle to run.Has anyone tried contacting Cambridge Animation?Why? Do you expect them to do something for us for free?The newer versions of Animo run on Windows/Macintosh hardware. Has anyone tried if they're compatible with the old files?No, the files use features specific to that version, which do not exist in newer versions.

Statistici
15 Jan 2011, 11:45
Make the water always appear on, say, 1-2px width indestructible tanks (floating or not)?
http://a.imagehost.org/0127/tank.png

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