Thanks for the Random Mines [Archive] - Team17 Forum

PDA

View Full Version : Thanks for the Random Mines

Galrikh
24 May 2007, 11:27
That was really the best change what you did, now it's much more funny to play online against others, before it was all a "jump over the mine aso" *yawn* now it's really thrilling ^^ I killed myself yesterday three times because the mines but I had no problem with it (like some others)
Good change, really good change :)
Now make the rope more useable and the game is near perfect ^^

ninjarat
24 May 2007, 16:53
I also love the random mines. As for the rope? Again, I haven't played any of the previous worms...but to me the rope is already over-powered as it is. You can reach just about any spot on the map with it. There are times when I wish people were forced to calculate how to hit the opponent from a distance, but why bother when you can just invert the rope and go next to them? Maybe that's just part of Worms...but like I mentioned, this is my first Worms game.
As for future updates, it'll probably take at least another 3 mos minimum to see another update. Personally, what would complete the game for me is to allow the user to select Random Mines as part of their scheme. Just having it in Ranked Scheme is a waste of such a great concept.

cjc3uwm
25 May 2007, 20:33
I think the random mines is a horrible change.

hsabbers
26 May 2007, 14:10
Random mines -- what a stupid change. The trouble is that for months people have built up their own strategies based on existing gameplay mechanics and to fundamentall change the operation of a tool is a really bad idea.
Well done, fools.
Harry.

Squirminator2k
26 May 2007, 17:31
Random mines -- what a stupid change. The trouble is that for months people have built up their own strategies based on existing gameplay mechanics and to fundamentall change the operation of a tool is a really bad idea.
Well done, fools.
Harry.
http://allvintagestore.com/Toys%20Pics/TRoll%20Peach%20jewel.jpg
I personally love the random mines - it adds an additional layer of strategic depth to the game.

cjc3uwm
3 Jun 2007, 22:52
just because someone is disagreeing doesn't make them a troll. but it's great that you've jumped on the bandwagon of calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll. very original.

Squirminator2k
4 Jun 2007, 00:15
Here's the thing, cjc. "Harry" started his own thread about how much he hates the random mines. He then found it prudent to come into this one, which is pro random fuses, and posted a rather angry, rather uncalled for, rather out of place post about how much he hates them, even though he already has his own thread for that. In my book, that's trolling.
But then, you're too busy going into dead threads and posting off-topic, irrelevent, contradictory tat to notice that sort of thing, eh?

robowurmz
4 Jun 2007, 09:53
Here's the thing, cjc. "Harry" started his own thread about how much he hates the random mines. He then found it prudent to come into this one, which is pro random fuses, and posted a rather angry, rather uncalled for, rather out of place post about how much he hates them, even though he already has his own thread for that. In my book, that's trolling.
But then, you're too busy going into dead threads and posting off-topic, irrelevent, contradictory tat to notice that sort of thing, eh?
Hear, Hear!
Tell them trolls, S2k!

Wormetti
4 Jun 2007, 10:20
Now that I've played many games with random mines, I really like them. It really increases grenade and bazooka usage. Many players remember the initial mines have random fuses but they often seem to forget that the mines they place themselves also have random fuses, so they hurt themselves on the same turn they drop the mine.
edit:
They still have to activate the mine but a slow walk away will do this.

Paul.Power
6 Jun 2007, 13:21
Now that I've played many games with random mines, I really like them. It really increases grenade and bazooka usage. Many players remember the inital mines have random fuses but they often seem to forget that the mines they place themselves also have random fuses, so they hurt themselves on the same turn they drop the mine.I say, that's a bit off. It's one thing to have a random fuse in an initial mine, but on one you've just placed...

AndrewTaylor
6 Jun 2007, 13:25
I would presume that the mine isn't activated until you've been allowed to retreat. Otherwise it'd only be useful as cheap dynamite. So it's not as bad as all that.
Edit: Also, they'd be useless defensively otherwise.

hsabbers
7 Jun 2007, 15:27
Here's the thing, cjc. "Harry" started his own thread about how much he hates the random mines. He then found it prudent to come into this one, which is pro random fuses, and posted a rather angry, rather uncalled for, rather out of place post about how much he hates them, even though he already has his own thread for that. In my book, that's trolling.
To be fair, I didn't start my own thread -- I just contributed similar comments to two threads that had already mentioned random mines. The context of those threads being either 'pro' or 'anti' hadn't actually occured to me. Strikes me that if one or other thread is discussing something of interest then it is fair and relevant for people to comment, be it in a supportive or unsupportive fashion. Elsewise, whither for free speech?
I've (elsewhere) already apologised for my initial angry post here. But while I am sorry for the angry tone of my post I am not sorry for its sentiment: changing a key game feature without consultation from the players -- for which read paying customers -- was unfortunate.
Harry.

Haoshiro
7 Jun 2007, 15:49
To be fair, I didn't start my own thread -- I just contributed similar comments to two threads that had already mentioned random mines. The context of those threads being either 'pro' or 'anti' hadn't actually occured to me. Strikes me that if one or other thread is discussing something of interest then it is fair and relevant for people to comment, be it in a supportive or unsupportive fashion. Elsewise, whither for free speech?
I've (elsewhere) already apologised for my initial angry post here. But while I am sorry for the angry tone of my post I am not sorry for its sentiment: changing a key game feature without consultation from the players -- for which read paying customers -- was unfortunate.
Harry.
I think there are very few people who would call it a "key" game feature. Previous Worms games allowed Random Mine settings. It's like people complaining that omitting the Baseball Bat and Holy Hand Grenade because they are what "Make Worms, Worms" - when Worms 1 didn't have these items.
Ranked play is a different scenario. We're talking about a competitive arena, and balance needs to be done and tweaks to prevent other players ruining the game experience for others. There is no reason to "consult" players... and as you might have noticed, the majority would likely have voted for random mines any way. It's a good change, it makes competitive play better. That is all T17 needs to know.
I do still think mines you set yourself should not have random fuses... but that is my opinion. Plus, I have a feeling the way they implemented the fuse times is global (not per-mine), meaning they either all have the same time, or are all random - but that gets into a game design/code argument! heh.

hsabbers
7 Jun 2007, 16:08
I think there are very few people who would call it a "key" game feature. Previous Worms games allowed Random Mine settings. It's like people complaining that omitting the Baseball Bat and Holy Hand Grenade because they are what "Make Worms, Worms" - when Worms 1 didn't have these items.
Well, I guess we could endlessly debate what's 'key' and what isn't. I believe all the weapons -- and the way they operate -- are key features. Pretty backgrounds, though, would not be key; nor would sound scemes, say. But random mines *did* alter the way the game is played. Whether or not you like the change, the change was key.
Ranked play is a different scenario. We're talking about a competitive arena, and balance needs to be done and tweaks to prevent other players ruining the game experience for others. There is no reason to "consult" players... and as you might have noticed, the majority would likely have voted for random mines any way. It's a good change, it makes competitive play better. That is all T17 needs to know.
Well, yes, I've said elsewhere and am happy to repeat that the majority like the random mines. Even I'm not hating them now. But to make the leap of reasoning from 'people would've voted anyway' to 'there's no need to consult' is flawed logic. The same kind of thinking keeps despots in power, don'tcha know.
I do still think mines you set yourself should not have random fuses... but that is my opinion. Plus, I have a feeling the way they implemented the fuse times is global (not per-mine), meaning they either all have the same time, or are all random - but that gets into a game design/code argument! heh.
Yep, me too. But hey, it wouldn't do for you and I to agree on something, surely?
Harry.

AndrewTaylor
7 Jun 2007, 16:25
Whether or not you like the change, the change was key.
I don't think that's true. I think you're using a very loose definition of "key". The gameplay hasn't fundamentally changed. Only one of its many subtleties has changed: how you deal with mines.
How large a change that is depends on how you play(ed) the game. BnG fans would barely notice a change in mine fuses. Ropers would notice it right away the first time they propelled themselves into the sea by trying to swing past a short fuse mine.
To be fair, I didn't start my own thread -- I just contributed similar comments to two threads that had already mentioned random mines. The context of those threads being either 'pro' or 'anti' hadn't actually occured to me. Strikes me that if one or other thread is discussing something of interest then it is fair and relevant for people to comment, be it in a supportive or unsupportive fashion. Elsewise, whither for free speech?
I agree: it's trolling to enter a thread discussing which PS3 game you're most excited about and say "the PS3 is rubbish anyway" because obviously the people using that thread will all disagree and you're not contributing to the discussion. But to directly counter the thesis of a thread is really just discussion. Well, as long as your polite. If a thread starts with "Random mines are good" and you don't allow "no, they're not" there's really not much else to say.
Personally, I like it when people write specific replies rather than copy-pasting across multiple threads, though. Though to be fair I like it more when we only have one thread per discussion and the problem goes away.

hsabbers
7 Jun 2007, 19:43
I don't think that's true. I think you're using a very loose definition of "key". The gameplay hasn't fundamentally changed. Only one of its many subtleties has changed: how you deal with mines.
Hoho. Clearly we're never going to agree on this. I think the change was key/fundamental. You -- and many others -- think not. That's okay. We've debated this point endlessly elsewhere. I don't think less of anyone for liking random mines and I would hope no-one thinks less of me for offering up a counter view.
How large a change that is depends on how you play(ed) the game. BnG fans would barely notice a change in mine fuses. Ropers would notice it right away the first time they propelled themselves into the sea by trying to swing past a short fuse mine.
Well, perhaps. So it was a fundamental change to ropers (not me) and to precision exploders (me). But not a fundamental change to others. See how the two viewpoints differ here? I wonder how people would feel if the length of the Uzi shot suddenly became random, or Poke was suddenly bestowed with a random power to sometimes project worms miles across the screen? I bet people would argue such weapon-attribute changes to be key.
Personally, I like it when people write specific replies rather than copy-pasting across multiple threads, though. Though to be fair I like it more when we only have one thread per discussion and the problem goes away.
Aye, well I did that once, sort of. It wasn't intentional: I just found one thread first, then I found the other, which seemed more relevant to my complaint. Also, I was angry with my first post (I'd only just found out about the problem). I have apologised for it. There are only so many times one can apologise for the same error of judgement. Latterly, I have lucidly and politely argued my point, if firmly sometimes. I would continue to do so, were it not for the fact that I'm really not that bothered any more: random mines are apparently here to stay and, while I don't really like them, it's not the end of the world. Happy worming folks; and don't character-assassinate me in my absence.
Harry.
Harry.

KRD
7 Jun 2007, 19:59
Random thoughts I probably shouldn't post but will anyway.
If you're a "precision exploder", surely you still have an advantage in that area compared to people who aren't. From my experience with 2D PC titles, I'd say you have an even bigger advantage now that the mines actually have to be handled with care and can't just be taken out of the equation on the first turn of every game. Not to mention the outcome of the approaches in which you use the mines is a lot of the time deadlier with lower mine fuses anyway. At least it was in WA.
But yes, I do agree that if this change was made with the intention to make the ranked scheme more competitively fair, the mine fuse should have been lowered rather than made random. Clearly that wasn't the intention, though. The intention was merely to make the mines... well, mines.
Oh and making the mines laid by worms random sounds unintentional to me. A bug. It's certainly not the kind of change the good people of WormNet would embrace if rankings depended on it. In fact, I imagine that change would cause much more drama if the XBLA community was a little more experienced in Wormy strategy. Luckily for some, it isn't.
Harry!

Haoshiro
7 Jun 2007, 20:09
I don't think that's true. I think you're using a very loose definition of "key". The gameplay hasn't fundamentally changed. Only one of its many subtleties has changed: how you deal with mines.
How large a change that is depends on how you play(ed) the game. BnG fans would barely notice a change in mine fuses. Ropers would notice it right away the first time they propelled themselves into the sea by trying to swing past a short fuse mine.
Hoho. Clearly we're never going to agree on this. I think the change was key/fundamental. You -- and many others -- think not. That's okay. We've debated this point endlessly elsewhere. I don't think less of anyone for liking random mines and I would hope no-one thinks less of me for offering up a counter view.
Well, perhaps. So it was a fundamental change to ropers (not me) and to precision exploders (me). But not a fundamental change to others. See how the two viewpoints differ here? I wonder how people would feel if the length of the Uzi shot suddenly became random, or Poke was suddenly bestowed with a random power to sometimes project worms miles across the screen? I bet people would argue such weapon-attribute changes to be key.
Perhaps there is a middle ground to this disagreement.
Random Mine fuses are not a "key" feature or element of Worms as a game. Fuses in general, however, are a "key" feature of Mines.
From what I've gathered, the main issue you have with the mine fuses being random is, honestly, mostly to do with when a mine has no fuse. Without the fuse, you can't get a worm on a specific side of a mine, to control the direction they are blasted, etc.
Which I'm sure was frusterating for you, but it didn't make you're strategy impossible, just less certain. The mines still do a potential 45 damage, still have the same blast radius, and fundementally are just as deadly as they always were, at least individually.
That's what creates the argument of this being a "key" game design element. The mines by and large are the same, the randomness that was always there is now just a bit more random. For example, mines could always be randomly dead (they don't explode), and that random element would always mess someone like you up. But the fact that knocking an enemy into a mine can still take precision, and still be deadly, is undeniable.
Mines are giving you free damage, and you are mainly complaining about the post-blast positioning of this free damage you are inflicting.
Back in WWP/WA, I liked to play with no mines at all... as it's easy to see them as "unfair" based on positioning, etc. If you're "strategy" relies so much on random elements of the play field, specifically of the randomly placed mines - then you always had a random chance of success in a match, especially against people who's strategy wasn't so based on chance in the first place.
You'll get argued on your point more and more, just for treating your chance strategy as being ruined by game elements being modified to involve more chance, and calling that "key" game changes - all because of you're own play style.
That's why Andrew said what he did, it seems "key" to you because of how you played the game, not because it was an honestly key part of the game. These mines are a part of the play field in general, and as a result really aren't key if you think about it. You could take all the doodads off the map, remove the barrels and mines, and it would still be Worms, it'd essentially be the same game, just with different maps.

worMatty
7 Jun 2007, 21:46
I guess in a Worms game itself nothing is key unless it's a major change like cavern maps, sudden death, etc. In our cases it's just our strategies that treat the mine fuse change as key, not the game. So it's all relative.
Regarding consultation, there has been more con three-sec mine fuse talk in the forum than there has pro. I believe this constitutes consulting the community of players in a sensible fashion.

AndrewTaylor
7 Jun 2007, 22:44
Random Mine fuses are not a "key" feature or element of Worms as a game. Fuses in general, however, are a "key" feature of Mines.Trust me, that doesn't work.
Now, I shall switch sides for no clear reason!If [your] "strategy" relies so much on random elements of the play field, specifically of the randomly placed mines - then you always had a random chance of success in a match, especially against people [whose] strategy wasn't so based on chance in the first place.
That's hardly fair. The mines, once the game has started, don't go anywhere. To say that using mines to inflict extra damage is to play based on chance is like saying that playing on random terrains or with random worm placement (or even random turn order) is to play by chance.
Using elements of your environment to your advantage is what allows a crack shot become a great player.
That's why Andrew said what he did, it seems "key" to you because of how you played the game, not because it was an honestly key part of the game.
I didn't say "seems"; I said "is".

Haoshiro
7 Jun 2007, 22:58
Now, I shall switch sides for no clear reason!
That's hardly fair. The mines, once the game has started, don't go anywhere. To say that using mines to inflict extra damage is to play based on chance is like saying that playing on random terrains or with random worm placement (or even random turn order) is to play by chance.
Using elements of your environment to your advantage is what allows a crack shot become a great player.
While I see what you are trying to say, trust me, that doesn't work! ;)
Sure, mines are fixed once the game starts, but are randomly placed. Meaning if your strategy is specifically geared towards using mines against players in very specific ways, how effective that is going to be will depend on land layout, worm, and mine placement - all of which are random.
Sure, if you can use a mine to your advantage that is great, but relying on it to the point your strategy is ruined by random fuse times? That's stretching a bit far.

Spadge
8 Jun 2007, 03:25
Way too hardcore kiddo, get with the fun!

worms360x
8 Jun 2007, 22:44
out of all the worms games i must say this is the most stratgic one i have witness but its made me smarter in stratgy :) :cool:

Paul.Power
10 Jun 2007, 18:47
Using elements of your environment to your advantage is what allows a crack shot become a great player.Or a scattergun into a decent player, in my case :p.

worMatty
10 Jun 2007, 20:22
In your case it's luck, Paul, nothing more.

CStubing
11 Jun 2007, 17:23
Random fuses on mines bother me. I recognize that we've all gotten used to Worms XBLA the way it was and that a big part of how we're feeling and reacting to the random mines is based on how the game worked previously. Of course, this is all relative -- random fuses are shocking just because they weren't random before.
However, I feel that a good game is a fair game, where the playing field is level so that all players have the same chance of winning at the outset. It's been my experience that someone always gets screwed by the combination of random worm placement and random mine fuses. Someone always winds up stuck between a couple of mines (in a minefield, if you will, har har har), while other worms are free to move about and take better positions for themselves after their turns.
This creates a dilemma for the worm that is stuck in the minefield. Either risk blowing yourself up by trying to jump past a mine (or 2, or 3), or just sit there and definitely get hit with something that will knock you into a mine and get you blown up. Either way, you're probably getting hurt by a mine or 2.

Spadge
11 Jun 2007, 19:38
Teleport or rope out of there?

worMatty
11 Jun 2007, 19:52
Why not.
You know, last night I was playing W:A with Euan, Dan and Ben and in one round all my worms were in hidden away places. At the end of the round, I had won the game with all four worms left. The lesson here is: Hide your worms away and the idiots you're playing with will ignore them and go for the easy shots.
That didn't have much to do with random mines, and for that I apologise.
I've only seen two people complain about random mine fuses. If your strategy doesn't work as well, get a better one. If you're a better player than your opponent you'll still win.

CStubing
13 Jun 2007, 05:57
Most of the time roping out of those spots involves setting off a mine while on your rope which is even more dangerous than doing so on the ground. Teleporting to make up for the spawn means using one of your few teleports and taking a turn without inflicting any damage. Either way, your opponents who aren't trying to deal with the mines don't have to use their equipment and a turn to make up for a lousy spawn.
I will try hiding the whole time like Wormatty suggested if I get the short end of the deal on the spawn and see how it goes.

worMatty
13 Jun 2007, 19:51
Spawning in awkward places is something which affects every Worms game. We don't mind it. At least you'll likely be teleporting somewhere safe.

SupSuper
14 Jun 2007, 18:10
This thread should be named "So long and thanks for the Random Mines".

worMatty
14 Jun 2007, 21:57
Why, has someone left?

thomasp
14 Jun 2007, 22:44
Why, has someone left?
No, that'd be a reference to The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

worMatty
15 Jun 2007, 00:49
I didn't know Dan was in to that.

AndrewTaylor
15 Jun 2007, 11:17
No, that'd be a reference to The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
So would "42" but that wouldn't have made any sense either.

BiffTanner
16 Jun 2007, 16:25
Is the random mines for online only?
Just came here to check what the update was for and saw it was random mines, however testing a local game the mines still have the same timer.

Wormetti
16 Jun 2007, 16:38
It's for the ranked scheme only.

Paul.Power
19 Jun 2007, 20:21
I think they should put mines on a 42-second timer.
Whee, silly throwaway remarks...

vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.