Sold out. Vista. Black screen or funky colours. [Archive] - Team17 Forum

PDA

View Full Version : Sold out. Vista. Black screen or funky colours.

MattOG
29 Nov 2008, 08:50
Firstly I apologise for having to start another thread, but after hours of trying different things I'm hoping someone might have an idea.
OS: Windows Vista Home Premium (6.0, Build 6001)
Processor: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 3800+ (2 CPUs), ~2.0GHz
Card name: Radeon X1650 Pro
Ok, I install the program (have also skipped the sold out auto install and went straight for the install off the disk).
After this, the game runs, colours are fine, but clicking to start a game gives me a black screen, no sound, no pie. (mmmm, pie).
If I use the /nointro switch, the game loads and the colours scramble.
Setting Administrator etc changes nothing.
If I install ANY patch (there's one that came on the cd), or the latest from T17 webby, then the game runs, but the colours get messed up.
Same is true for any update that I've tried. 3.6.28.0 & 3.6.29.0
Basically, If I get the colours right, the game won't run, if I make the game run, the colours are funky......
Anyone have any ideas??
p.s. I have updated my drivers to the latest, and also dx.
EDIT:::
*****
Ok, 3 points.
1. I'm dumb.
2. See Point 1.
3. Nuff Said.
Ok, so I go to uninstall worms, finally about to throw in the towel and in the "programs and features" screen, a program called "active desktop calendar" catches my eye. At this point I must stress that I had already looked through this list many times for any "always on top" programs, but this never really hit my brain. It's basically a calendar, that overlays on your desktop, allowing you to... you get the idea... anyhoo, that's all I needed. Straight into task manager, ended the program. And now worms works without any problems, no compatibility mode needed, no open explorer window, just a basic install, and update.
Thanks for being here.
As a lesson, please go through ALL running tasks in task manager, 1 at a time, and thoroughly think about each one, as I obviously failed to do.

rolloLG
12 Dec 2008, 08:33
IMHO, Team17 should fix the buggy gfx engine and it's not an innocent overlay program issue...
Same weird colour problems found in Worms World Party version, just for example...
It's an old gfx engine bug (and how it displays parallax layers) to be fixed, IMHO.

franpa
12 Dec 2008, 10:38
please read before posting, the bug is in how 3rd party programs steal the palette from the games, not how the games rendering engine works.

rolloLG
13 Dec 2008, 02:04
please read before posting, the bug is in how 3rd party programs steal the palette from the games, not how the games rendering engine works.
Well it's a contestable point of view. The fact, maybe, is that the game should allocate its palette dynamically then... that's how every other do when put on screen...

CyberShadow
13 Dec 2008, 09:17
It's not contestable when it's stated by the game developer/maintainer. And dynamic palette allocation will cause graphics distortion, because W:A requires the entire palette space.

rolloLG
13 Dec 2008, 10:58
It's not contestable when it's stated by the game developer/maintainer. And dynamic palette allocation will cause graphics distortion, because W:A requires the entire palette space.
I see... didn't know there were official statements...
I've read you're working to improve WA through official (?) patches. Of course you plan to fix also this palette probelm with Vista?
PS
How can WA require the entire palette space (16M colors?) when it uses just 256? How weird...

CyberShadow
13 Dec 2008, 11:32
To the best of my knowledge, there isn't much that can be done from within W:A to restore the palette once it's been "lost" to another application. The known workarounds in the Troubleshooting FAQ (http://worms2d.info/Troubleshooting_FAQ#The_game_colours_get_all_messe d_up) seem to work well enough.
In an 8-bit color resolution (like the one W:A uses), there can be at most 256 distinct colors on the screen at the same time, and W:A uses all or almost all of them. Pixels on the screen then represent the index in the palette which represents the desired color.

rolloLG
13 Dec 2008, 12:17
To the best of my knowledge, there isn't much that can be done from within W:A to restore the palette once it's been "lost" to another application. The known workarounds in the Troubleshooting FAQ (http://worms2d.info/Troubleshooting_FAQ#The_game_colours_get_all_messe d_up) seem to work well enough.
Well, to kill important tasks like explorer.exe it's a bad idea IMHO... anyway even following those guides I still have transparent-black underwater and upper sky :(
In an 8-bit color resolution (like the one W:A uses), there can be at most 256 distinct colors on the screen at the same time, and W:A uses all or almost all of them. Pixels on the screen then represent the index in the palette which represents the desired color.
Of course I know. But I can't understand why can't share it's palette with system available colours. I'm not expert in Windows display programming (can't f.e. Windows open a new screen with full needed pens free?) but there are tons (=all) of programs/games that open on desktop and look with perfect colors. It's the way it is coded which is a bit "hacky" IMHO since it's the only program ever seen to have this problem with modern 32bit screen res...
Or is it an unsurmountable limit of the old DirectDraw, used by Worms series?

CyberShadow
13 Dec 2008, 13:01
Well, to kill important tasks like explorer.exe it's a bad idea IMHO... anyway even following those guides I still have transparent-black underwater and upper sky :(That's a different problem (http://worms2d.info/Troubleshooting_FAQ#The_water_and_sky_are_black). Have you tried updating your drivers?Of course I know. But I can't understand why can't share it's palette with system available colours. I'm not expert in Windows display programming (can't f.e. Windows open a new screen with full needed pens free?) but there are tons (=all) of programs/games that open on desktop and look with perfect colors. It's the way it is coded which is a bit "hacky" IMHO since it's the only program ever seen to have this problem with modern 32bit screen res...
Or is it an unsurmountable limit of the old DirectDraw, used by Worms series?You can't have a 256-color application run on a 32-bit desktop, without emulation (which is nigh impossible with W:A). W:A needs direct access to the video buffer with the pixel format it was programmed for, 8-bit colour. Assuming you understand this, I don't understand the nature of your question.

franpa
13 Dec 2008, 13:23
Well, to kill important tasks like explorer.exe it's a bad idea IMHO...
Blame Microsoft for ****ing up Explorer.exe.

rolloLG
13 Dec 2008, 14:20
That's a different problem (http://worms2d.info/Troubleshooting_FAQ#The_water_and_sky_are_black). Have you tried updating your drivers?
I'm afraid I can't :( Newer nVidia drivers for my gfx card have other problems. 98.15 are the best-working for me... I'll try in the future and will report the results.
You can't have a 256-color application run on a 32-bit desktop,
Shouldn't the 256 colors compatibility mode do exactly this?
without emulation (which is nigh impossible with W:A). W:A needs direct access to the video buffer with the pixel format it was programmed for, 8-bit color. Assuming you understand this, I don't understand the nature of your question.
Ok, and (I repeat I never coded for Windows so I don't know these tech aspects O:) ) can't this game open "it's own" 256 color screen instead of using desktop screen?
A theoretical solution could be to rewrite this game to use 24, 32bit in a future 4.0 version? This should solve all these gfx issues?

CyberShadow
13 Dec 2008, 14:23
Ok, and (I repeat I never coded for Windows so I don't know these tech aspects O:) ) can't this game open "it's own" 256 color screen instead of using desktop screen?It's not possible, it's just not how video cards work.
A theoretical solution could be to rewrite this game to use 24, 32bit in a future 4.0 version? This should solve all these gfx issues?Yes, it's planned to be in true color in 4.0.

rolloLG
13 Dec 2008, 14:50
It's not possible, it's just not how video cards work.
But using other DX functions, instead of DDraw, would be possible to set up a screen with desired res and depth?
I see I can run other old games like Abe's Exoddus on Vista without troubles... that's because they use DX and not DDraw, even if the palette is not 16/32bit?
And forcing it to run in window? This should workaround the 256 colors fullscreen problem?
Yes, it's planned to be in true color in 4.0.
In this case, I can only wait... :confused:

CyberShadow
13 Dec 2008, 15:41
I don't know how other paletted games run without problems. It's possible they do emulation, and actually run in a 32-bit color screen mode. Windowed mode is not an option with paletted applications because then everything outside the game's window would appear as distorted graphics, as the game sets the palette on a hardware level (via DirectX). "Paletted" games that run in a window actually use emulation to do so.

rolloLG
13 Dec 2008, 16:03
Thank you for your patience! :)
I'll impatiently wait for v4.0 (hope will be within 1-2 years)... ;)
PS
Have you seen HedgeWars worms clone?

rolloLG
13 Dec 2008, 16:12
Just a brainstorming idea... thinking about 256 colors bitmap paletted games I thought ScummVM (open source) renders interpreted fixed-paletted games well, maybe their work can help you for the rendering engine of WA/WWP?

CyberShadow
13 Dec 2008, 19:35
Yes, we've seen HedgeWars.
It's difficult to add palette emulation in W:A due to the way the graphics code is written, so it's not an easy task.

franpa
14 Dec 2008, 04:57
It's possible they do emulation, and actually run in a 32-bit color screen mode.
I believe "Hover" included on some Windows 95 discs, emulates. Would explain the performance message when running the game in higher colour depths. (emulation overhead etc.)

rolloLG
14 Dec 2008, 09:00
Yes, we've seen HedgeWars.
It's difficult to add palette emulation in W:A due to the way the graphics code is written, so it's not an easy task.
And it's impossible to force screen palette pens allocations and then restore them as defaults when the games exit? Is DDraw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directdraw) so restrictive? :(

CyberShadow
14 Dec 2008, 12:49
And it's impossible to force screen palette pens allocations and then restore them as defaults when the games exit? Is DDraw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directdraw) so restrictive? :(
I don't understand what you mean by that.

vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.