Success! v3.6.28.0 works for me. [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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Cerbera
16 Jul 2007, 21:02
I bought Worms Armageddon as a birthday present for a friend (actually, the Worms Private Pack (https://secure.team17.com/browse.html?area=detail&skuid=79)). She has fond memories playing the Worms games when a child, as do I.
So when we installed the game (quite a new laptop running Windows XP) and it didn't work (blank screen upon trying to commence any mode of gameplay), you can understand it was a crushing disappointment.
Anyway, I did my best to find the solution but to be honest, the T17 site is terribly confusing (unless you are already familiar with it). I browsed these forums for topics about patches but the replies were confusing about which patch should be used and under which circumstances they wouldn't work.
I found the WAHELP FAQ (http://www.nanacide.com/wahelp/) site. On there I found the correct page, which says this:
2. Patching and Updating
The Sold Out Software version does not need patching.
(Source: Sold Out Software on Windows 2000/NT/XP (http://www.nanacide.com/wahelp/installguide-soldout2.php).)Well, the Sold Out Software version is what we bought but it wasn't working. So you can imagine my confusion.
Things were going from bad to worse.
Eventually I entered this WA v3.6.19.7+ (beta) Update (http://forum.team17.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=68) area. I had found threads talking about more recent versions via searching, so I thought this was a dead area. The meaning of a "+" after the version was non-obvious to me. Then I noticed the W:A v3.6.28.0 Released (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32992) topic pinned the top of this area and figured this was the most recent version. (It still didn't make sense to me why it was in this area, though: I've only noticed the + while writing this message.)
So I followed the Download Page (http://wa.team17.com/main.html?page=supp&area=upda&file=15) link from the first page of that topic. This took me to a page on the site I hadn't seen before, where the new patch was available. So I downloaded it.
I had found the Patch (http://wa.team17.com/main.html?page=supp&area=patc) page on the main site before. I hadn't looked in the "Update" area because, well, why would there be patches in an area called "Update" as well as the area called "Patch"?
Incidentally, using the => and <= comparison operators to indicate version ranges on the Updates (http://wa.team17.com/main.html?page=supp&area=upda) page is not user-friendly. Those operators only appear in programming and ASCII mathematics, AFAIK.
So anyway, we applied the patch and verily everything now works fine. We've got slight flickering in the menus but this is bearable. Now we can throw grenades at wiggly pink worms! :D
I'd suggest:
Remove all outdated patches from the T17 website.
Put the most recent patch on the "Patches" page.
Change the name of this area to "Worms Armageddon Patches" or something.
Don't use obscure operators to indicate version ranges. Don't use a plus at the end of version numbers to indicate an open range.
Update the information on WAHELP. Specifically, the Sold Out Software version does require the patch for it to run.
Add the patch to the CD so users don't need to fruitlessly hunt around for a download after unwrapping their gift.With some fairly common-sense changes, I think you could make this information easier to find. I really appreciate that you maintain support for such an old (but classic!) computer game!

pisto
16 Jul 2007, 21:05
I like your story.

thomasp
16 Jul 2007, 21:37
I'd suggest:
Remove all outdated patches from the T17 website.
Put the most recent patch on the "Patches" page.
Change the name of this area to "Worms Armageddon Patches" or something.
Don't use obscure operators to indicate version ranges. Don't use a plus at the end of version numbers to indicate an open range.
Update the information on WAHELP. Specifically, the Sold Out Software version does require the patch for it to run.
Add the patch to the CD so users don't need to fruitlessly hunt around for a download after unwrapping their gift.
Technically what you downloaded wasn't a "patch", but a Beta update - an of update (that's bigger than a patch) that's still in development
For point 1: Trouble is, some games aren't as "new" as the Sold Out version, so require the patch that you were originally linked to so as they become the same version as the Sold Out software
For point 3: I'll see what the admins have to say about that - maybe "WA Beta Updates/Patches" might be more sensible.
For point 5: The Sold Out software doesn't require the v3.0.0 (or whatever the specific version number is) patch to work properly, but it does require the 3.6.xx beta updates to work properly. When the final v4 patch is released after all these betas, then I imagine the sites will be adjusted accordingly
For point 6: These beta updates are changed quite regularly, so at the moment it would be unfeasible and unrealistic to add them to new CDs - I imagine the v4 update will be included on CDs when it is released

Muzer
16 Jul 2007, 21:44
If you were to read on in the page you were on from nanacide, you would have found info on how to update it. It doesn't need patching, it needs updating. A patch is something that fixes bugs. An update can fix bugs but can also do other things, eg add features. Always look for both.
Anyway, sold out don't put the latest update on disc because it is technically beta, and therefore potentially unstable, so it is against their desire to include beta software into a retail game.

SilPho
16 Jul 2007, 23:00
We've got slight flickering in the menus but this is bearable.
In your worms folder there is a "Tweaks" folder, in there if you run the "SlowFrontEndWorkaround_AntiFlicker" file it might solve that problem as well.

CyberShadow
16 Jul 2007, 23:14
Frankly speaking, using "patch" to denote 3.0 and "update" to denote anything else is extremely confusing. We invented these terms and gave them improper meaning, up to the point where people just say "no you don't need the patch, get the update!" - which is silly, since the patch updates some of the game's files, and the update "patches" the game generally by updating some more files.
Furthermore, it's true that the W:A website is very often confusing and even self-contradictory in some places. For instance, the "patch" page claims that 3.0 is the latest W:A version - while in fact, it's just the latest non-beta W:A version. Also, if my memory serves me right, the "update" page claimed that you could apply the Beta update to "any WA CD version [...] WITHOUT updating to any other version first" - which was untrue before the latest Beta introduced the new automatic installer.
To sum it up, I do agree that some clean-up is in order - and we should stop using these ambiguous terms :)

Cerbera
17 Jul 2007, 01:41
Firstly, thanks for taking this seriously. Game companies who really care are a rarity but you guys (and girls?) set a great example. :)
Yes, the difference between those terms was lost on me as a new customer. Even after extensive searching through these forums, now is the first time I understand the difference between the "patch" and the "update".
Incidentally, abbreviating "Worms Armageddon" to "WA" is one of things which caused uncertainty and slight confusion. "Avoid jargon" would be a suggestion I'd make for the website, forum areas and any official forum threads.
I think it would be ideal if your customers could download one "update pack" with one installer and everything gets fixed. That should be technically possible, perhaps like this:
Detect if Worms Armageddon is installed and retrieve its location.
If that fails, prompt the customer for a location and use that.
Until the location is good, return to step 1. (Allow the customer to cancel the installer.)
Detect what version is installed: If it's pre-3.0 version: Apply the "patch".
Apply the latest "update". If it's a 3.0 version without any "update" (i.e. the Sold Out Software one): Apply the latest "update". If it's a 3.0 version with an old "update": If the "update" can be undone, do so. Then apply the latest "update".
Otherwise, prompt the user to uninstall the game. Exit the installer. If it's a 3.0 version already with this "update": Inform the user they have already applied this "update pack".
Exit the installer. If it's a 3.0 version with a newer "update" than this "update pack" contains (customers might stumble upon old "update packs" on the web):Tell the user this installer is older than the version they already have.
Provide a link to the T17 website for the latest "update pack". If the version is not recognised: Apologise to the user.
Provide a link to the relevant support forum thread. Tell the customer everything should be hunkey-dorey now.
Display a "Play Now" button which launches the (hopefully) fixed game.Making the path to success as straight and as narrow as possible for your new customers would greatly enhance their experience, imho. It's fabulous once it works, but the path to get there is currently a bit of an obstacle course.

franpa
17 Jul 2007, 05:51
the 3.6.28.0 updater does most of that already.

Wormetti
17 Jul 2007, 09:17
Typical Cerbera type post (I know you from GTA forums) but all valid points :o. I always thought update and patch was a poor way to distinguish between two different updates. v3.6.28.0 will download and install the "patch", if it detects that you need it. The installer didn't always do that, which is one reason you will find outdated advice around.

Bawb
17 Jul 2007, 13:13
The first time I bought the game and went searching for the patch, the difference between "Patch" and "Update" on the Team17 WA page confused me a lot. I downloaded the update from the forum page here eventually but I do agree that some rewording and reorganisation is needed.

zog
17 Jul 2007, 13:15
Firstly, thanks for taking this seriously. Game companies who really care are a rarity but you guys (and girls?) set a great example. :)
probably because they don't actually work for T17 :p :D
I think it would be ideal if your customers could download one "update pack" with one installer and everything gets fixed. That should be technically possible, perhaps like this:
stuff
It's actually what the latest update does pretty much, it's just transparent enough that you don't notice, although I believe you will have to download forthcoming versions of the patch manually (which will all have the same functionality)
I agree with everything in your first post though; I have encountered people on wormnet who have been playing with a previous beta update and still have no idea where to actually download the latest one.

CyberShadow
17 Jul 2007, 14:00
It's true that the installer already (tries to) do points 1-3 (a bit differently) and 4a, b, c (it notifies the user that he screwed up, but installs the things in proper way as normally since that will work). d and e are worth considering implementing, although it's quite unlikely for e to happen, and d cases might include if the user changed or deleted some update files and wants those files restored. 6 might interfere with the "show readme" option, which should be what people read anyway after updating.I agree with everything in your first post though; I have encountered people on wormnet who have been playing with a previous beta update and still have no idea where to actually download the latest one.Hopefully that will be minimised when HostingBuddy goes online again. It will notify people who haven't updated to do so; it keeps a list of nicks so it wouldn't remind the same person twice.

Dario
19 Jul 2007, 17:59
It is nice to see that you guys understand that making the game, the site and forums more newbie-friendly is a must in order to keep this game alive.

Cerbera
21 Jul 2007, 12:13
It's true that the installer already (tries to) do points 1-3 (a bit differently) and 4a, b, c (it notifies the user that he screwed up, but installs the things in proper way as normally since that will work).Oh, so it sounds like when people download the "update"nearly everything will already get fixed automatically! :D
In that case, why is the "patch" still available as a separate download? All the website needs is an "Update" area thanks to the clever installer.
It also means guides like WAHELP no longer need to talk about "patch" and "update" as separate things. They can just talk about the "update"?
Perhaps bundling the "patch" in with the "update" to give users a smoother experience would be worthwhile? Sure, the download will be big but it makes the difference between "patch" and "update" transparent to those users who are coming from an old version.
Thanks again for taking this seriously. Any progress on changing the name of this forum area?

franpa
21 Jul 2007, 14:27
the update downloads the patch if needed. however your correct that it can be removed from the website, but the file must remain on the server.
also, the patcher tells you if you need the patch and asks if you would like to download and install it but only if you need it.

CyberShadow
23 Jul 2007, 08:45
The main reason the patch is still available is because it's the last official update from the original developers, Team17. All Beta updates have been done by Deadcode (and me since the last one).

thomasp
23 Jul 2007, 10:21
The main reason the patch is still available is because it's the last official update from the original developers, Team17. All Beta updates have been done by Deadcode (and me since the last one).
And it should be noted that Deadcode and Cybershadow don't work at Team17 HQ and from what I am aware aren't actually employed by T17.

bonz
23 Jul 2007, 17:37
And it should be noted that Deadcode and Cybershadow don't work at Team17 HQ and from what I am aware aren't actually employed by T17.
Although, some people believe that there is a busy galleon shuttle service between Wakefield, Los Angeles and Chişinău, repectively. http://www.trailerparkboys.org/forums/Smileys/default/beer.gif

Cerbera
24 Jul 2007, 05:04
But is officialdom more important than customer satisfaction? As a new customer, I'd say "definitely not". And it's the new customers who generate T17's revenue and help the community grow, from what I gather.
At the moment, the answer to support queries about Worms Armageddon is "get the beta 'update'". It's the de-facto solution. It includes the T17 "patch" and is successful at fixing the game. So keeping the "patch" up there as a separate download in its own section doesn't make much sense and isn't helping T17's customers, imho.

KRD
24 Jul 2007, 21:16
Who do you propose should be the one to remake the website?
Personally I don't think this is of great importance at all. Everyone with the potential to become a WormNet regular sooner or later finds their way here or to another community forum. Or the Worms Knowledge Base. Or to the IRC channel in my Location line.
Team17 have said in the past that the revenue generated by the second generation Worms games is negligible. Not worth their thoughts, let alone their time and money.

franpa
25 Jul 2007, 05:57
just add a note to the patch page saying the patch is now depreciated.

Cerbera
25 Jul 2007, 10:54
Who do you propose should be the one to remake the website?Whoever is currently in charge of it. But this isn't a "remake" of the website; it's just making the text clearer and removing redundant areas. Simple stuff.
Personally I don't think this is of great importance at all. Everyone with the potential to become a WormNet regular sooner or later finds their way here or to another community forum. Or the Worms Knowledge Base. Or to the IRC channel in my Location line.Becoming a "WormNet regular" is not important to all Worms Armageddon customers. (Such as myself and my friend.)
Even having found this forum, it still took a great deal of time to locate the things we needed. Giving this forum are a more intuitive name would help that, but it has not happened yet.
Basically:
We paid for the game.
It didn't work.
Getting it to work was a mission and a half.Customers deserve better service than that (imho).
Team17 have said in the past that the revenue generated by the second generation Worms games is negligible. Not worth their thoughts, let alone their time and money.They care enough to keep putting the new "beta updates" on the website, which requires text changes and download listings for the various regions. So your opinion doesn't quite stack up with the facts, from what I can tell. Do you have any links to those statements by Team17?
Franpa, the word is "deprecated" and it's not a word typical customers will know. (I only know it from W3C specifications.) My suggestion is to replace jargon with plainer words and also to remove "red haddock" areas like the "patch" page.

bonz
25 Jul 2007, 16:00
Basically:
We paid for the game.
It didn't work.
Getting it to work was a mission and a half.Customers deserve better service than that (imho).
Well, you should contact the publisher of your version of the game then.
Companies like Sold-Out Software are the ones that are still selling the game and the ones that should support it, not the developers.
More so, almost 10 years after the original release when the developers have made 13 new games in the mean time.
The main thing you (and many other people) seem to neglect is, that it's a beta update.
The last official version is v3.0 patch, with the v3.0.5.0 beta update being de-facto official, as it brought Win2K/XP support and was also incorporated in the downloadable versions (i.e. Trymedia).
Normally it's not standard that everyone plays a beta version, instead of the latest official one.
But that's probably because of their sheer superiority in the case of WA.
Anyway, it's rather unimportant to have those things changed.
Team17 currently don't have a Webmaster. The v3.6.28.0 beta update was actually ready several days before it's release, but DC/CS couldn't do anything, because Volcadmin, T17's server admin, rarely had time.
We can feel lucky if he changes the download link for the latest beta. :rolleyes:

Cerbera
26 Jul 2007, 10:53
Companies like Sold-Out Software are the ones that are still selling the game and the ones that should support it, not the developers.I bought it from the Team 17 Shop (https://secure.team17.com/browse.html?area=detail&skuid=79).
More so, almost 10 years after the original release when the developers have made 13 new games in the mean time.If they don't want to support it, they could stop selling it. But that would be a sad thing to happen, imho.
The main thing you (and many other people) seem to neglect is, that it's a beta update.Beta or not, it works better on more machines than the CD/download versions. And the normal answer here, at Team 17's support forums, is to download the "update". That makes the "update" the de-facto standard, not the "patch" or even the CD/download versions.
The last official version is v3.0 patch, with the v3.0.5.0 beta update being de-facto official, as it brought Win2K/XP support and was also incorporated in the downloadable versions (i.e. Trymedia).How does this clinging to officialdom help anyone? It just makes the game harder to get working, AFAICT.
The "update" is apparently unofficial, yet it's on Team 17's website. It installs the "official" patch if it's needed. It doesn't need to be official to work.
Normally it's not standard that everyone plays a beta version, instead of the latest official one.
But that's probably because of their sheer superiority in the case of WA.Well, exactly. The most functional version should be the official version. And that is the "update" version, not the "patch" version.
Anyway, it's rather unimportant to have those things changed.The game is still being sold. This things are still affecting customers. They are still important. Several members have confirmed these as being issues in this topic.
Team17 currently don't have a Webmaster. The v3.6.28.0 beta update was actually ready several days before it's release, but DC/CS couldn't do anything, because Volcadmin, T17's server admin, rarely had time.
We can feel lucky if he changes the download link for the latest beta. :rolleyes:Indeed, it's very cool that Team 17 continue to make their back catalogue available and go so far to support the community around it. But just a little more effort would make the experience so much smoother for new customers.
I am trying to be constructive about this.

franpa
26 Jul 2007, 11:07
wa.team17.com
they have changed it a bit and imho for the better.

bonz
26 Jul 2007, 13:16
Killer argument to end this discussion:
Maintaining the shipping of all the galleons of beer to Los Angeles and Chişinău is quite costly when Team17 spend the major part of their budget for their own beer consumption. http://www.trailerparkboys.org/forums/Smileys/default/beer.gif

franpa
26 Jul 2007, 15:17
so its dearer when team17 spend money on getting beer then for anyone else? you made a mistake in your wording.

bonz
26 Jul 2007, 18:14
to end this discussion
Nuff said.

Cerbera
26 Jul 2007, 23:52
wa.team17.com
they have changed it a bit and imho for the better.Cool! I also think it's a lot clearer now. :)

franpa
27 Jul 2007, 01:13
maybe add some info on the "patch" about why it is needed now a days... like say "this patch is mostly needed if you have the european release and wish to update to the latest beta version"

Muzer
27 Jul 2007, 09:01
(i would post a franpa alert if I weren't on my Wii)
The patch is 100% NOT NEEDED! The new beta automatically installs the patch as well if necessary

franpa
27 Jul 2007, 09:52
i said that. if you removed it then how would it get downloaded? thus i said it needs to stay but add a extra note to it, i also suggested earlier that they could just remove web pages on the patch and just leave pages with links to the update only. (while keeping the patch file on the server for the updater to download if necessary)
the patch is not 100% needed yet it is needed if its required? now tell me how it can not be 100% needed if it IS needed for early eurapean release?

SilPho
27 Jul 2007, 10:27
What Muzer means is that there is no need to download the patch yourself, the 3.6.28.0 installer will take care of everything for you.
However, it is needed on the website because those who wish to install the game on a computer that does not have an internet connection may need it. (Download it elsewhere and then transfer it to their non-connected PC)

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