Verticle Hill Maps Frustrating [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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wormz1000
7 Dec 2010, 09:47
Verticle caves are OK bit the hills are terrible. Way too much advantage to anyone placed above and it turns into a fire-punchathon. Thankfully they normally don't last long but fairly often some idiot thinks it's very clever to sit on top and dig in. You can be stuck down below having exhausted any way of getting up while the idiot just waits for sudden death. So you end up watching a countdown for 12 or 15 minutes or surrendering despite being way in the lead. If one actually tries roping up, the rope inevitably grapples in the wrong direction....splash. This is by far the most unenjoyable part of reloaded. Get rid of these maps pleeeeeeeeeeez or let us select which we want to play

Djoszee
8 Dec 2010, 18:44
Or learn how to zook up against the wind, how to tactically use teleports, or save your airstrikes and other homing weapons.

wormz1000
9 Dec 2010, 03:34
Or learn how to zook up against the wind, how to tactically use teleports, or save your airstrikes and other homing weapons.
It's often impossible to get up from the bottom with ropes. "Tactically use teleports" what all 2 of them...sure, and lose your turn in the process...great tactic bro.
The strikes & homing weapons are a very scarce resource, easily avoided and not powerful enough to counter a bad placing.
Jetpack doesn't have the juice to get you from the bottom to the top.
The point is placing plays too much of roll in these maps and almost every person I've asked hate these maps because of it. Is it too much to ask that players be allowed to filter out what maps they'd like to avoid. This would leave players who need to rely on luck and advantage of a good placing to play nicely together

Wormetti
9 Dec 2010, 20:21
Jetpack does have enough juice to get to the top of vertical maps. You have to tap the button instead of holding it down to conserve fuel. Rope is more difficult but if you know how to use it, you can get to higher ground most of the time.
Tactical teleport is taking note of the turn order. Just because you teleport next to someone up top, it doesn't means they will get their turn before you. Less worms gives you turn advantage.
You can select what map you want to play on all modes other than ranked. I wouldn't care if vertical maps were removed from ranked but I don't mind them being there.

wormz1000
10 Dec 2010, 00:01
Jetpack does have enough juice to get to the top of vertical maps. You have to tap the button instead of holding it down to conserve fuel. Rope is more difficult but if you know how to use it, you can get to higher ground most of the time.
Tactical teleport is taking note of the turn order. Just because you teleport next to someone up top, it doesn't means they will get their turn before you. Less worms gives you turn advantage.
You can select what map you want to play on all modes other than ranked. I wouldn't care if vertical maps were removed from ranked but I don't mind them being there.
I don't believe the jetpack can make it to the top from the bottom. (Even if it could, it shouldn't be so dam hard to make it)
One can't even throw a grenade or shoot a bazooka to the top from the bottom, meanwhile the bombs rain down on the guys at the bottom with very little effort.
If the guys at the bottom have exhausted any means getting up, the player on top can go have a bath, knowing his opponent will be having a bath of his own in a few minutes
Sure you can use the rope to get to higher ground...this is quite often what people use the rope for, but can one make it to the top from the bottom in a single turn. I've never seen anyone do it. Maybe it isn't impossible but it's pretty close. Feel free to submit and youtube links of anyone managing it.
I don't have an issue with all verticle maps, just the hill type because initial positioning pretty much determines the outcome.
I bet if a filter system were introduced 9\10 people would choose to filter verticle hills out.

Thurbo
10 Dec 2010, 14:16
I don't believe the jetpack can make it to the top from the bottom. (Even if it could, it shouldn't be so dam hard to make it)
It's very easy. You only have to push the up key in time, if that's too hard I don't want to know what's actually "easy" in your opinion.
Sure you can use the rope to get to higher ground...this is quite often what people use the rope for, but can one make it to the top from the bottom in a single turn. I've never seen anyone do it. Maybe it isn't impossible but it's pretty close. Feel free to submit and youtube links of anyone managing it.
I already posted it for another thread, here are the links. Have fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVrax46bC10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qltb-ac43ss
Btw, I've got to rope up hills like every third match. It's a matter of training. I mean, there's to be at least a few things that distinguish veterans from newbies. I hate it when people shoot at random and still hit, and all the other random luck in this game, actually :p
On the other hand, this is why Worms is a good game for newbies and pros to play together.

CakeDoer
10 Dec 2010, 16:58
Jetpack does have enough juice to get to the top of vertical maps. You have to tap the button instead of holding it down to conserve fuel.
Just did that, and it barely got me to the middle of the map.

wormz1000
10 Dec 2010, 20:24
It's very easy. You only have to push the up key in time, if that's too hard I don't want to know what's actually "easy" in your opinion.
I already posted it for another thread, here are the links. Have fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVrax46bC10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qltb-ac43ss
Btw, I've got to rope up hills like every third match. It's a matter of training. I mean, there's to be at least a few things that distinguish veterans from newbies. I hate it when people shoot at random and still hit, and all the other random luck in this game, actually :p
On the other hand, this is why Worms is a good game for newbies and pros to play together.
No links showing someone jetpacking the full height of a verticle hill. If it's as easy as you say there should be many links.
re the roping links, the one link is not a real world example, but a map specifically designed with convenient protrusions. The other link is not someone going from bottom to top. Still the trouble these players had getting there illustrate how difficult it is to go up in this manner yet down is a piece of cake, making placing on this type of map ultra important and not skill.
Still thanks for the links...guess I'm a noob.
I agree with you that worms is a good game, but I bet if there were no other type of map except these verticle hills Reloaded would quickly die. The only reason I and the vast majority tolerate them is in the hope that the next game will be on a different map type...pure and simple.

Wormetti
10 Dec 2010, 21:17
Flying to the top with a jetpack is easy, especially if you have played the classic Lander game. You should only tap the up arrow when you are about to lose altitude.

Thurbo
11 Dec 2010, 15:05
No links showing someone jetpacking the full height of a verticle hill. If it's as easy as you say there should be many links.
Why would someone upload videos of something like that, if it IS that easy? You are the first person here saying this is a difficult task anyway.
re the roping links, the one link is not a real world example, but a map specifically designed with convenient protrusions. The other link is not someone going from bottom to top. Still the trouble these players had getting there illustrate how difficult it is to go up in this manner yet down is a piece of cake, making placing on this type of map ultra important and not skill.
It IS bottom to top.
I placed that worm the farthest away from the top I could, in a random map. Sure there can be maps that are more difficult, but there are also easier ones.

wormz1000
11 Dec 2010, 19:03
Why would someone upload videos of something like that, if it IS that easy? You are the first person here saying this is a difficult task anyway.
Not true...Cakedoer also mentioned having trouble jetpacking that high. No opponent has ever acheived this in any game I've played either. So now the lack of video proof out there is due to how easy it is to do. Yeah right...since when did people only start posting relevant important stuff on the net and anyway surely there'd be a vid of someone jetpacking this high on the way to doing something more spectacular.
Since one only gets 1 jetpack, it should be able to scale the full height of the tallest map at least with some juice to spare to carry out an attack
One spends their entire turn trying to get up, the opponent then ropes, parachutes, jetpacks or hops down easily. I don't expect a fair match, but one that's primarily decided from the outset is hardly worth playing
Even having a more powerful jetpack wouldn't make verticle maps pleasant.
It IS bottom to top.
I placed that worm the farthest away from the top I could, in a random map. Sure there can be maps that are more difficult, but there are also easier ones.
Nope it isn't bottom to top...water not visible. Judging by the length of rope used that wasn't even close to the full height
I think the main problem is the weapons are based on real world weapons with real world physics, but the verticle hills are not based on common real world terrains so one is armed with weapons completely unsuitable for the terrain type. I mean a guy at the bottom can't even reach by throwing a grenade at a guy on the top...what use is an unlimited supply of them then? Same goes for the bazooka.

Thurbo
11 Dec 2010, 20:48
Not true...Cakedoer also mentioned having trouble jetpacking that high.
He was the second person. How about reading posts carefully before answering?
Nope it isn't bottom to top...water not visible. Judging by the length of rope used that wasn't even close to the full height
You really are annoying do you know that?
It's very close to water and second, how often does it happen you have to rope from a point at the very bottom to a point at the very top?
I haven't even SEEN any random map generated like this yet.
If your guys are at the bottom, then safe all your jet packs and ropes, use the teleporters at the proper time and most important, save all airstrikes you got!
If it happens to me, I usually wait till Sudden Death or till my opponent does stupid things (usually chuting or roping down). If you are at the top you are in some trouble, should your opponent have saved his airstrikes and means of transportation.
Every turn of yours should be elaborate and executed carefully as well. Just be smarter than your opponents, then it's a piece of cake (like Aku mentioned in a previous thread, like 50% of the players you meet online seem to be plain braindead).

wormz1000
11 Dec 2010, 22:55
He was the second person. How about reading posts carefully before answering?
Assumed you meant "only". I mean lets face it, if anything is ever said someone has to be the 1st to say it so why do you mention it?
You really are annoying do you know that?
No need to get antagonistc, touchy and personal.
It's very close to water and second, how often does it happen you have to rope from a point at the very bottom to a point at the very top?
So close it isn't even visible on the screen....ummm, ok sure.
I haven't even SEEN any random map generated like this yet.
I have...often
If your guys are at the bottom, then safe all your jet packs and ropes, use the teleporters at the proper time and most important, save all airstrikes you got!
Already covered this with Wormetti & Djoszee earlier. How about reading posts carefully before answering? (I mention this in an unantagonistic, non-touchy and impersonal way)
If it happens to me, I usually wait till Sudden Death or till my opponent does stupid things (usually chuting or roping down). If you are at the top you are in some trouble, should your opponent have saved his airstrikes and means of transportation.
So you suggest waiting and hiding for 15 minutes at the bottom until the water level starts rising. Since roping up is so easy for a veteran such as yourself, I'm surprised this is a tactic you USUALLY employ in situations like this. In fact this was the entire basis of my argument. Verticle maps lead to stagnant boring games.
Every turn of yours should be elaborate and executed carefully as well. Just be smarter than your opponents, then it's a piece of cake (like Aku mentioned in a previous thread, like 50% of the players you meet online seem to be plain braindead).
That's hardly a crime, and besides, if one considers themselves cleverer than 50% of the people out there it still only makes them average since that infers they're not as clever as the other 50%
I'm going to assume that since neither you nor anyone else has provided a vid of someone "EASILY" jetpacking the full height of a verticle map, you concede it can't be done but just won't admit it.
I stand by my opinion that reloaded would be a much better game without verticle hills. Ask T17 to get reloaded players to vote for 1 map type they'd never like to see again and I have little doubt I'd be proven right.

Thurbo
12 Dec 2010, 12:11
...this is hopeless.
Vertical maps add a different strategic touch to Worms. OW2 players loved them. They are in, live with that.
If vertical maps were REALLY only just frustrating, there'd have complained a lot more players than you and they wouldn't have existed for 3 years in the series now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz-kFUnXGqI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sVo-42vLPU
Here ya go, a video of both roping and jetpacking, from the very bottom to the very top.
And now learn how to do it or shut up.

wormz1000
13 Dec 2010, 00:55
...this is hopeless.
A bit like jetpacking the full height of a verticle hill?
Vertical maps add a different strategic touch to Worms. OW2 players loved them. They are in, live with that.
Strange how only 2 people I encountered do like them and dozens don't. I'd love to see it put to a vote. Not all verticle maps are bad, like I've said repeatedly, the verticle caves are fine, it's the hills that are rubbish, annoying & boring...in fact you may get that clue from the topic title.
Would it be so terrible to allow ranked gamers to select 1 map type to filter out if they choose? Surely something that makes most players happier is an improvement or will giving them the option to tailor their experience a bit make them very sad?
If vertical maps were REALLY only just frustrating, there'd have complained a lot more players than you and they wouldn't have existed for 3 years in the series now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz-kFUnXGqI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sVo-42vLPU
Here ya go, a video of both roping and jetpacking, from the very bottom to the very top.
As for the roping vid...nice one, but I never said roping up was totally impossible, just "pretty close" and "often impossible" (not always) & I'd never seen it. I guess after this much time someone determined enough would get a map conducive enough to be able to manage it...well done
As for the great jetpacking vid - FAIL...(I notice you didn't underline "very". Also the map was a massive help, giving the player the advantage of leaning on and idling up slopes. Even with this advantage he only got near the top and walked the rest of the way because the jetpack was exhausted. Afraid you still don't make it into my Guiness book of records, good try though.
To prove your point (as you seem so desperate to do), why not go to the map generator and create a shorter tall map...it'll be so much easier than relying on the jetpacks juice.
In one of your earlier posts you said
It's very easy. You only have to push the up key in time, if that's too hard I don't want to know what's actually "easy" in your opinion.
I think it's safe to say thats a load of manure. Even though you seem incapable, I don't expect you to change your opinion that it's not just EASY but VERY EASY. Also that's not the ONLY method (pushing the up key) used in your vid to get towards the top of the map...I'm referring of course to the using lateral thrust to add height. (Since thrusting sideways uphill doesn't diminish the verticle thrust countdown this is a dubious tactic since it can't be used on all scenarios)
The fact that it took you several attempts, this long to bring roping vids (well done again) and the fact that you still dont have a proper jetpacking vid simply proved my point further. It's not EASY, you can't do it yourself. You got close. Walking to the top doesn't qualify, he may as well have roped the rest of the way.
And now learn how to do it or shut up.
I never asked you to reply to this...you chose to. You were welcome to provide input on the subject but you now seem to prefer just attacking me personally. I suppose it's the frustration of not being able to prove me wrong and the nature of the internet where any moron can easily express their opinions. The best you can do is provide sketchy & cheating proof. Next it'll be manufactured proof.
You've already admitted that these maps lead to boring games, unless you want to argue that waiting and watching a countdown for 15 minutes till sudden death is most people's notion of extreme excitement. It just seems that the more you argue the more you validate my points.
I still believe one can't jetpack to the VERY top from the VERY bottom. Even if it is possible I believe Reloaded's ranked games would be better off with some map type filter or weighting system. Why shouldn't 2 ranked players be allowed this?
You seem to think that giving people more control over their experience will be detrimental. Why? If someone doesn't like horozontal hills, why force them on him. You seem to have this "I know what they want even if they don't know it themselves attitude".
You need to understand, not everything someone else expresses is wrong. You don't always need to adopt a contradictory viewpoint. Admitting you're wrong isn't a capital offence. Sometimes a person has a valid opinion...learn to accept it or shut up.
I'm now bored of this and you

Wormetti
13 Dec 2010, 01:09
It does seem impossible to get from the lowest point to the highest point just using vertical thrust. Fortunately worms are rarely placed at the lowest possible point, there are usually enemy worms on the way that you should kill first and the top of the map is overrated since its very easy to get knocked off and you are vulnerable to strikes.
The searching system for ranked definitely needs improvements like being able to search for ANY ranked scheme instead of having to limit it to certain schemes and hoping someone else is searching for that same scheme at the same time as you.

Thurbo
13 Dec 2010, 02:16
As for the great jetpacking vid - FAIL...(I notice you didn't underline "very". Also the map was a massive help, giving the player the advantage of leaning on and idling up slopes. Even with this advantage he only got near the top and walked the rest of the way because the jetpack was exhausted. Afraid you still don't make it into my Guiness book of records, good try though.
Yes, you are right! I used the landscape to my benefit.
...you know, that's what you do with every single item/weapon in this game. You use holes where enemies sit in to get a good grenade shot. If the wind is fortunate you have an easier attempt at zooking/parachuting, you need masses of land to have a good cover if you use blowtorches, drills or girders...
and so I did with the jetpack. Simple, huh?
Yes I know you can only pass half till 3/4 of the map if you don't use land to your advantage. Note that this was a randomly generated map I played in. If there's a rather unfortunately built map, you have to accept you can only make half of the map and then shoot the enemies using your aiming skills you obviously don't have.

wormz1000
13 Dec 2010, 10:35
-----------------------------------------------------------Wormetti----------------------------------------------------------------
the top of the map is overrated since its very easy to get knocked off and you are vulnerable to strikes.
Digging in circumvents almost every threat except the bunker buster, of which there's only 1 and doesn't do too much damage anyway. Most of the power ups land up there too which adds to the advantage though
The searching system for ranked definitely needs improvements like being able to search for ANY ranked scheme instead of having to limit it to certain schemes and hoping someone else is searching for that same scheme at the same time as you.
You're absolutely right, a search all types would be great or even the ability to change the game-type without breaking the connection with the player you're currently connected to would also be nice
-----------------------------------------------------------Thurbo----------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, you are right! I used the landscape to my benefit.
That wasn't the agreement
So I did with the jetpack. Simple, huh?
You walked to the top. You almost jetpacked there (and cheated) but even still not quite. Let me put it in a way you'd understand...think of it as almost having been laid, you'd still be a virgin.
Yes I know you can only pass half till 3/4 of the map if you don't use land to your advantage.
From the way you argued this point we both know you just learned something new, you should be thanking me.
you have to accept you can only make half of the map and then shoot the enemies using your aiming skills you obviously don't have.
You've drifted off the topic and attacked me personally again. I never questioned your abilities, nor did I need to defend mine. The topic was about map types and getting around them.
I already admitted I was a noob, I accept that. Please don't rub it in, I'm sensetive & you'll hurt my feelings.
However since you brought it up I'm ashamed to admit that it's only through sheer luck that on the Worms Reloaded (PC version) Leaderboards I'm currently ranked in the top 10 out of over 43000 globally , go check for yourself. On both, the "Damage dealt" & "Standard Leaderboards" I'm currently ranked No 4. I just hope that with a little practise I'll improve (but let's be honest, there's not too much room for that is there?)
This doesn't necessarily make my playing skills better than yours, but you should feel like an idiot about taking a swipe at my aiming & shooting skills. If it doesn't, you're an even bigger idiot than you realise.

Thurbo
13 Dec 2010, 17:21
You walked to the top. You almost jetpacked there (and cheated) but even still not quite. Let me put it in a way you'd understand...think of it as almost having been laid, you'd still be a virgin.
Actually I can't really be bothered posting here anymore, but before I leave this stupid thread forever, just tell me how the heck I CHEATED. I only used some land of the landscape to my benefit. I don't think there's the slightest chance, if I had done what I did in the video in an online game, someone had typed "cheater" in the chat.
I took the first vertical map I found using the landscape editor. Then I went from bottom to top with the worm that stood the closest to the water, first with the rope, afterwards with the jetpack. I did not design that map. I did not determine the worm placements either. It was a perfect simulation, this could have happened in an online match exactly the way you saw it in the video.
Therefore, it wasn't cheating by any means.

Koenachtig
13 Dec 2010, 17:48
Therefore, it wasn't cheating by any means.
You don't seem to get it.

Thurbo
13 Dec 2010, 18:19
You don't seem to get it.
I do. Here's what you want!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY2YgEAf-Ic
But wait... that doesn't look like a map you'd ever see in an online game. That's what he doesn't get.
Furthermore, isn't that awesome? You can actually climb higher on a random map because there's land pushing you up! Be glad the generator ain't buggy enough to generate a map with two points at the bottom and at the top.
...cheating.

Mark-O
13 Dec 2010, 19:18
Assumed you meant "only". I mean lets face it, if anything is ever said someone has to be the 1st to say it so why do you mention it?
No need to get antagonistc, touchy and personal.
So close it isn't even visible on the screen....ummm, ok sure.
I have...often
Already covered this with Wormetti & Djoszee earlier. How about reading posts carefully before answering? (I mention this in an unantagonistic, non-touchy and impersonal way)
So you suggest waiting and hiding for 15 minutes at the bottom until the water level starts rising. Since roping up is so easy for a veteran such as yourself, I'm surprised this is a tactic you USUALLY employ in situations like this. In fact this was the entire basis of my argument. Verticle maps lead to stagnant boring games.
That's hardly a crime, and besides, if one considers themselves cleverer than 50% of the people out there it still only makes them average since that infers they're not as clever as the other 50%
I'm going to assume that since neither you nor anyone else has provided a vid of someone "EASILY" jetpacking the full height of a verticle map, you concede it can't be done but just won't admit it.
I stand by my opinion that reloaded would be a much better game without verticle hills. Ask T17 to get reloaded players to vote for 1 map type they'd never like to see again and I have little doubt I'd be proven right.
In my opinion i don't play reloaded i play worms armegeddon on xbox live but i'm sure it's possible not impossible with jetpack but i'm sure you probably won't make it every time i know thurbo or whatever doesn't get it every time. but saying it's possible.

Koenachtig
13 Dec 2010, 21:41
I do.
I'm sorry, that's not what I meant.
But I don't feel like getting involved too much into this arguing.

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