request for module WKFreeCam [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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b1llygo4t
5 Jun 2009, 10:49
a module that would adjust how the camera acts. id like to be able to look around during other wormers turns without my camera zooming in, also id like to be able to blow stuff up without the camera zooming in on it so i can retreat or make another action with RWmultishot.

franpa
5 Jun 2009, 10:54
I thought there was a way to lock the "home" key function, maybe it is a feature for the next version of W:A?

CyberShadow
5 Jun 2009, 11:09
You can stop the camera from moving on its own by either turning on Scroll Lock, or holding down the left mouse button.

b1llygo4t
5 Jun 2009, 11:23
lol im using an OLD mac kb. ill try the scroll lock thing soon

franpa
5 Jun 2009, 11:30
Is there a way to have normal camera focus on the active worm and ignore focus on everything else? the constant focus that "home" produces is nausiating.

CyberShadow
5 Jun 2009, 11:38
Not at the moment.

GreeN
5 Jun 2009, 19:31
Selective scrolling, I like that idea

b1llygo4t
5 Jun 2009, 22:07
itd be nice to have a txt file with a list of things the camera will zoom in on, that you could toggle on or off.

Balee
6 Jun 2009, 12:20
Accidentally, I just recently had an idea of centering the recently fired weapon, in the same way super/aqua sheep is centered by default. I know the camera does follow it, but if I move my worm, or the mouse, the focus is lost, and also, after a while, the focus starts to "loose" the weapon. This would be practical if you want to see where your weapon hits and want to retreat, without needing to follow the weapon manually with mouse.

CyberShadow
6 Jun 2009, 13:16
I really can't imagine finding appropriate keybindings for all these ideas, much less expect people to remember them. Don't we have enough camera control keys already (Ctrl+/Shift+/Scroll-Lock, Shift/Middle Mouse Button, Home and the upcoming Ctrl+Home, holding down the left mouse button...)?

Dario
6 Jun 2009, 13:55
An in-game menu or a txt file you can edit to set your camera preferences to your needs would be really cool. Not talking about changing those settings during a match, but doing it in the same way you change the colours and the resolution.
Btw, the day zooming in/out during a match is possible will probably be a really happy day for me and for many players that sometimes need to see things in pixel detail and sometimes need to see the terrain from far away.

GreeN
6 Jun 2009, 20:56
An in-game menu or a txt file you can edit to set your camera preferences to your needs would be really cool. Not talking about changing those settings during a match, but doing it in the same way you change the colours and the resolution.
Btw, the day zooming in/out during a match is possible will probably be a really happy day for me and for many players that sometimes need to see things in pixel detail and sometimes need to see the terrain from far away.
BnG; Best example
And sure, it'd be great xD

KRD
6 Jun 2009, 22:57
I'm curious, actually. :confused:
In what scheme would you benefit from seeing more than the detail the current [1:1, one pixel is one pixel] camera distance offers, Dario? And in what schemes, that you play, would you benefit from seeing more than the entire 1920 × 696 landscape? This is what relatively cheap modern 23" and 24" LCD screens can display natively now.

GreeN
7 Jun 2009, 01:22
Maybe Dario should have labeled it as zooming "out/in", in the sense that any one of the many users playing on the common (<)1024x1280 resolution could benefit from this kind of implementation.
Most past and present low-end monitors and/or IGP's on the market support a maximum resolution of 1024x1280 and let us not forget about the endless number of Laptop users we have :)

MihaiS_v2
7 Jun 2009, 01:34
And in what schemes, that you play, would you benefit from seeing more than the entire 1920 × 696 landscape?
It's not about the scheme, it's about the map.

franpa
7 Jun 2009, 01:55
Maybe Dario should have labeled it as zooming "out/in", in the sense that any one of the many users playing on the common (<)1024x1280 resolution could benefit from this kind of implementation.
Most past and present low-end monitors and/or IGP's on the market support a maximum resolution of 1024x1280 and let us not forget about the endless number of Laptop users we have :)
He is after zooming in to better see stray pixels, not to zoom out and view the game at a lower quality.

MihaiS_v2
7 Jun 2009, 02:00
You could zoom out to have an overall view of the map and worms positioning. You don't have to play like that.

franpa
7 Jun 2009, 04:39
yes, but you lose quality by doing so, unless you zoom out by increasing the resolution.

MihaiS_v2
7 Jun 2009, 14:10
I think there's a quality issue when zooming in, not out. Take an image for example.. you won't alter it's quality by making it smaller, but you will notice pixelization when enlarging it.

Muzer
7 Jun 2009, 14:36
you won't alter it's quality by making it smaller
Yes you will. Sprites, etc. in W:A are rendered at the native resolution, so displaying twice as much will make it half as detailed. You also have the thing where even if W:A didn't play at the native resolution, for example, rendered everything with the pixels doubled up and twice as big, if you were to shrink it by an uneven number, say, 75%, you will lose quality there.

MihaiS_v2
7 Jun 2009, 15:17
Let's say you have an 1000x1000 image. If you make it 4 times smaller (500x500), you won't lose quality. Aliasing occurring due to shrinking factors is the problem, and usually that happens when you downscale to multiple of prime numbers, like 26%, 33%, 66%, etc. This problem can be solved by incremental scaling to predefined multipliers. And zooming out is just for short term, so you can get an overall view. Nobody will play like that. Lower quality when zooming out won't prevent you from seeing what the map looks like or where the worms are positioned.

Muzer
7 Jun 2009, 15:55
Here is an image at 1280x1024
DOWNLOAD: http://hbcapps.com/miight/crap/dump/filej1lV01.png ORIGINAL NAME: checkerboard'.png
And here is the same image resized to 640x512 (half of 1280x1024) using Kolourpaint - the simplest image editor you can get:
DOWNLOAD: http://hbcapps.com/miight/crap/dump/fileNLf3OY.png ORIGINAL NAME: checkerboard'small.png
Notice the difference? (Anyone who doesn't should either a) see an eye doctor or b) turn your LCD's resolution down 5 notches)

MihaiS_v2
7 Jun 2009, 16:16
And here is the same image resized to 640x512 (half of 1280x1024)
a) Learn arithmetics. 640x512 is the quarter of 1280x1024.
Notice the difference?
b) Stop using absurd examples. No W:A screen will ever match similar patterns. Exceptions are not good for examples.

Muzer
7 Jun 2009, 16:23
a) Learn arithmetics. 640x512 is the quarter of 1280x1024.
I meant half of each dimension, like in your example.
b) Stop using absurd examples. No W:A screen will ever match similar patterns. Exceptions are not good for examples.
But the point is, images lose quality when scaled down, and not when scaled up (although when scaled up you can more easily see their lack of definition, all of the quality is still physically there)

Balee
7 Jun 2009, 16:23
I really can't imagine finding appropriate keybindings for all these ideas, much less expect people to remember them. Don't we have enough camera control keys already (Ctrl+/Shift+/Scroll-Lock, Shift/Middle Mouse Button, Home and the upcoming Ctrl+Home, holding down the left mouse button...)?
How about End button?

MihaiS_v2
7 Jun 2009, 16:34
How about End button?
How about giving the player the option to set his own hot-keys (and in case of conflict, he should be warned)?
I meant half of each dimension, like in your example.
Yeah, but I did say 4 times smaller.
But the point is, images lose quality when scaled down, and not when scaled up
Tell that to someone who is printing an image. Actually, don't tell it to anyone, unless you want people to laugh at you.
(although when scaled up you can more easily see their lack of definition, all of the quality is still physically there)
The same applies to any case (all of the quality is still physically there), unless you're trying to bring an image back to 100% after you saved it at 25%- which is not the case of dynamic zooming.

Muzer
7 Jun 2009, 16:40
If there's an image on your monitor being displayed at native resolution and you scale it up, you will still be able to see each and every individual pixel, but they will be bigger. If you scale it down, you will not be able to see all the pixels. Refer to my (admittedly extreme) example above.

MihaiS_v2
7 Jun 2009, 16:47
If there's an image on your monitor being displayed at native resolution and you scale it up, you will still be able to see each and every individual pixel, but they will be bigger.
Yes, it's called pixelization. How does that make things better? It may help in worms, but it won't improve anything regarding quality.
If you scale it down, you will not be able to see all the pixels. Refer to my (admittedly extreme) example above.
If I scale it down, I'll be able to see more pixels per square distance unit- that's the point of zooming out.

Balee
7 Jun 2009, 16:55
Screenshot No.1 (1280x1024):
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n72/SpecB/screen0162.png
Screenshot No.2 (640x512):
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n72/SpecB/screen0162_sm.png
Actual screenshot from a game.
Notice that some of the fine details, like the spaces between "..." 's dots have almost, if not completely, disappeared. Of course, you can see what you need, and you can read the names, but still, it is not the same as a game would be if it would be rendered on a smaller resolution. Dont get me wrong, though, Im not against "zooming" in-game, but if it would be done the best way it can be, it would require re-rendering, which takes its toll, at best, by using more of the cpu/memory, at worst, by causing monster lags.
But my point in posting is mainly to provide a better example than Muzer's ;)

CyberShadow
7 Jun 2009, 17:03
Dont get me wrong, though, Im not against "zooming" in-game, but if it would be done the best way it can be, it would require re-rendering, which takes its toll, at best, by using more of the cpu/memory, at worst, by causing monster lags.It won't when we switch to OpenGL.

Balee
7 Jun 2009, 17:04
It won't when we switch to OpenGL.
Thats good to hear :) (not that i really know what OpenGL is, but nevermind, ill wiki it :P)

MihaiS_v2
7 Jun 2009, 17:12
But my point in posting is mainly to provide a better example than Muzer's ;)
Much better, but both examples (yours and Muzer's) are redundant because, guess what, it is natural not to be able too see details when zooming out.
Quality of image is not the same thing as quality of details. You can't expect seeing details when zooming out, because you usually notice details when zooming in, and breaking news, zooming in is the opposite of zooming out.

b1llygo4t
7 Jun 2009, 17:58
HAW! i love the wa community! its like a bunch of raccoons in an aluminum foil factory looking for something shiny, stepping all over each other! :) all i want is a list of things the cam will focus on and the ability to turn them off! easy like cup o noodles. i dont care about the damn banana bomb i dropped 5 seconds ago while im trying to retreat. :P
it would be very nice to have the cam zoom way out to a fixed view during other players turns, i dont care what it looks like, so long as i can see numbers, colors, worms and crates

Genexi2
7 Jun 2009, 18:18
Stray pixels would be easier to find if we could change the black background colour to something more annoying, such as magenta, to make everything else stand-out.

AndrewTaylor
7 Jun 2009, 18:46
What the game should have is just a big button that you press and it does the best possible shot then tells you if you won.

franpa
8 Jun 2009, 03:35
use integer scales + smooth transitions between each zoom setting. zooming out in regards to a word document or a photo isn't as important as a game that somewhat revolves around stray pixels. Game artists these days tend to strive for an overall effect where as back in the DOS era they strived to make use of each and every pixel.
You could zoom out and possibly use something like a scale filter but that would defeat the purpose of zooming out would it not?

bonz
8 Jun 2009, 14:47
I think we need zooming with anti aliasing.
Antialiasing would also help with implementing physically correct bounces.

Dario
8 Jun 2009, 16:39
Answering to KRD:
I play at 1024x768 in a 17" screen.
I want to zoom out when I want to shoot a worm that is just farther from what my screen can cover (bazooka, grenade, shotgun, bow, homming) or when I am retreating with jetpack (auto centering the screen just feels too odd) and can't see well where I am going at the same time I see what is happening with the weapon I dropped (can't learn if I can't see what I am doing wrong with a drop), also when I want to make a long flight with the rope and I can't see the target without losing focus on my worm.
I want to zoom in a lot of times, (my way of zooming in at the moment is putting my nose on the screen) for example when I start a walking/jumping journey and I need to see every pixel I step on so as to know when I can jump to gain some seconds and not bounce back, or when I am checking pixel by pixel the terrain to see if a worm/weapon can slide on that surface, sometimes a hole in the land isn't obviously wide/tall enough for a worm/animal and I try to count exactly how many pixels wide/tall it is. And I could go on with so many examples of moves that need pixel precision...
So, at least for me, zooming in and out would be something really useful and I'd definitely use it many times in every single normal round I play (by normal I am not talking about a specific scheme).

KRD
8 Jun 2009, 20:39
Dear Dario,
Get an LCD screen.
Best wishes,
KRD the Samaritan

eddy2000
9 Jun 2009, 16:36
better.... is to have a little square where you can see the weapons result without
move the camera with mouse.
so.... you can move and hide your worm and too look the shot.
and make shortkey to enable this square.
:cool:

bonz
9 Jun 2009, 19:44
better.... is to have a little square where you can see the weapons result without
move the camera with mouse.
so.... you can move and hide your worm and too look the shot.
and make shortkey to enable this square.
:cool:
Oh!
That reminds me of the projectile tracking system of Kurt Hectic's sniper rifle helmet in MDK.
It has three small monitors on the top that track the last three shots until impact.
http://i.d.com.com/i/dl/media/dlimage/89/46/0/89460_medium.jpeg

b1llygo4t
9 Jun 2009, 22:10
mdk was awsome. MURDER DEATH KILL. HERE IS YOUR FINE FOR CURSE WORDS!!

bonz
10 Jun 2009, 10:07
mdk was awsome. MURDER DEATH KILL. HERE IS YOUR FINE FOR CURSE WORDS!!
Demolition Man was awesome too. :D

CyberShadow
11 Jun 2009, 01:52
I think we're done here :rolleyes:

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