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SilPho
27 Jan 2007, 20:09
The question on everyone's mind I guess would be "When's the release date?" The obvious answer is "it's done when it's done" but I do wonder if we're talking days, weeks or months.

yakuza
27 Jan 2007, 20:53
How long did it take Deadcode to make anti silk?

CyberShadow
27 Jan 2007, 21:01
The question on everyone's mind I guess would be "When's the release date?" The obvious answer is "it's done when it's done" but I do wonder if we're talking days, weeks or months.
That doesn't really depend on me. There's still a number of issues that need to be fixed, in both my and DC's code. Also, there's a hardware issue preventing me to work on W:A freely ATM...

Etho
27 Jan 2007, 22:10
I think making certain programs open source is a very bad idea. Code from snoopers can easily be modified to create uncontrolable spam bots, IP stealers, etc. Deadcode's Silkworm and some of CyberShadow's WormKit modules likewise contain potentially dangerous source code. Making such programs open source makes things easier for those trouble makers out there.

yakuza
27 Jan 2007, 22:20
So those people who have already made a Snooper without the source code, are they a threat?
Or those who have access to the IRC channel password (many people) who can easily download bots or scripts who can spam, steal IPs, etc, are they a threat?

CaVeFiSH
27 Jan 2007, 22:27
I think making certain programs open source is a very bad idea. Code from snoopers can easily be modified to create uncontrolable spam bots, IP stealers, etc.
There's no problem at releasing snoopers code... it's IRC protocol ;). There's only thing, unlike WWP, that protects the server from IRC clients its a well known password... About other programs like scheme editors, the game is the one which should check the file to be a valid scheme file.
I consider more dangerous some WA patches, I think battyropes code its still on every client and any1 who likes to activate them should patch few bytes...

evilworm2
27 Jan 2007, 22:37
...dangerous source code.
Can code be dangerous? I think it's more like that the people who are dangerous.
A knife is useful to cut off a slice of bread. A knife can also be used to...
Really, this all depends on the guy in front of the keyboard (called wetware).

yakuza
27 Jan 2007, 22:41
I don't want the source code to be relased to the public, that is because I believe in Deadcode and Cybershadow's coding skills, what I'm not so sure about is if they're going to be able to drive the updates in the useful direction. Bigger maps are a major letdown for myself as I see practically no use from them.

CyberShadow
27 Jan 2007, 22:41
Common sense dictates that we should assume the worst which could be done with the code. That's why code can be called "potentially dangerous" if it allows someone to easily use it to do harm - as opposed to "dangerous" when the code was designed to do harm.
I don't want the source code to be relased to the public, that is because I believe in Deadcode and Cybershadow's coding skills, what I'm not so sure about is if they're going to be able to drive the updates in the useful direction. Bigger maps are a major letdown for myself as I see practically no use from them.Heh... I'm sure you'll change your opinion once you get to play some of them.

[UFP]Ghost
27 Jan 2007, 22:50
when people who haven't previously done anything wrong go to get a permit and a gun. Should no-one be allowed to buy 1 because it could be 'potentially dangerous', (i think they shouldn't) but they are even with the risks people have a certain expectation as to proper behavior.
not to mention the point of a gun is harm and the point of the code is not.

CyberShadow
27 Jan 2007, 23:15
I didn't say we wouldn't be giving the source to anyone. If someone needs it for a good purpose and can demonstrate that he can efficiently use it for the good of the community, I don't see why we wouldn't give him the tools to work for the common good.

[UFP]Ghost
27 Jan 2007, 23:29
not that i demonstrate any computer knowledge or any need for it so i'm not arguing to have it for myself. But how is it decided?

CyberShadow
27 Jan 2007, 23:31
Common sense.

Etho
28 Jan 2007, 00:26
So those people who have already made a Snooper without the source code, are they a threat? Or those who have access to the IRC channel password (many people) who can easily download bots or scripts who can spam, steal IPs, etc, are they a threat?
Luckily, most of the people who have made such programs have had nothing but good intentions. Give the same source code to someone who has a hatred towards the community, or is just downright immature, then we might have a problem. Must I mention the name "Mre" to you? Of all people, it somewhat shocks me that you would be the one to question my opinion; with your prior experiences.
I do consider a knife a dangerous weapon. Giving a dangerous weapon to a dangerous person will likely result in a dangerous situation. If you give a knife to someone who intends to use it properly, then you will likely get your sliced bread.
Just because a program isn't made publicly opened source, it doesn't necessarily mean the programmer won't give you his source code. He may want to make sure you have the proper intentions and capabilities before handing it out. Annelid's programs are closed source. Yet, he has helped me out a number of times with my programs. Likewise, I am willing to assist anyone wanting my assistence (with whatever knowledge/code I have) if I think it is a good idea to help them.

AndrewTaylor
28 Jan 2007, 12:55
Luckily, most of the people who have made such programs have had nothing but good intentions.
I suspect that's because it takes some time and effort, and skill, and people who just want to hack games to ruin people's fun generally aren'y patient enough to learn the skills required and then put the time in to get the job done. Not when there are so many phpBB forums on the internet just waiting for a visit by the special phpBB-hacking script they downloaded the previous weekend and think makes them clever.

yakuza
28 Jan 2007, 14:40
Luckily, most of the people who have made such programs have had nothing but good intentions. Give the same source code to someone who has a hatred towards the community, or is just downright immature, then we might have a problem. Must I mention the name "Mre" to you? Of all people, it somewhat shocks me that you would be the one to question my opinion; with your prior experiences.
I do consider a knife a dangerous weapon. Giving a dangerous weapon to a dangerous person will likely result in a dangerous situation. If you give a knife to someone who intends to use it properly, then you will likely get your sliced bread.
Just because a program isn't made publicly opened source, it doesn't necessarily mean the programmer won't give you his source code. He may want to make sure you have the proper intentions and capabilities before handing it out. Annelid's programs are closed source. Yet, he has helped me out a number of times with my programs. Likewise, I am willing to assist anyone wanting my assistence (with whatever knowledge/code I have) if I think it is a good idea to help them.
I understand all that, and I wasn't being cocky, I was just wondering how long would it take for someone to download an Ip stealing spamming bot if he knew the password to wormnet1. But I guess I'll stick with "Luckily not".
I already stated I wouldn't like the source code to be given away to everyone, on the other hand, there's some things that I don't understand, like how long did it take to fix the battyropes leak after saying it had to remain private for the security of wormnet etc

ArcBeetle
28 Jan 2007, 15:14
Just because a program isn't made publicly opened source, it doesn't necessarily mean the programmer won't give you his source code.
most of the times, unfortunately, it does

Chip
28 Jan 2007, 15:18
Bigger maps are a major letdown for myself as I see practically no use from them.
How can you say that (ok, I can't realy say they're great since I havn't played them myself) but the thought of having bigger maps in WA is one of the greatest features ever!!!!
Well OK, that my oppinion but I realy can't see how anyone would not like access to bigger maps.
Alls we need now is more worms available to use on the maps to make the whole big maps feature complete :)

yakuza
28 Jan 2007, 15:28
it's not that i'm against them, it's that, i would of liked something else.
More worms and bigger map doesn't seem too interesting for me, it just seems like something only newbs will keep on using as I see virtually no point in having them in the competitive aspect of the game.

CyberShadow
28 Jan 2007, 15:29
Don't judge something you haven't seen yourself.

yakuza
28 Jan 2007, 15:33
that's why i used ''seem''.
surely i'm speculating, but it will suprise me if i'm wrong.
the only good use i can find is in bng and it's boring, so making it last longer is even more boring.

ArcBeetle
28 Jan 2007, 16:36
More worms and bigger map doesn't seem too interesting for me, it just seems like something only newbs will keep on using as I see virtually no point in having them in the competitive aspect of the game.
how not? if the time is the same, the the bigger is the map the faster you must move and the
more difficult is the game

yakuza
28 Jan 2007, 16:51
Oh god, the infamous WWP spammer has found his way to these forums.
WA has no other difficulty (for me) than my opponent, so making a map bigger doesn't make things harder for me, it just makes things take longer. And longer doesn't imply funner.
Of course, I'm just speculating, but that's what common sense tells me.

ShyGuy
28 Jan 2007, 17:19
is using chute from rope being added?

CaVeFiSH
28 Jan 2007, 18:01
is using chute from rope being added?
I dont think that feature is planned... it could f4ck the way we use the rope :-/.

yakuza
28 Jan 2007, 18:42
That feature is already been made (along with the use of any weapon from rope). Last time I heard it would of been an on/off option, I don't know what is going on though.

Metal Alex
28 Jan 2007, 22:41
it's not that i'm against them, it's that, i would of liked something else.
More worms and bigger map doesn't seem too interesting for me, it just seems like something only newbs will keep on using as I see virtually no point in having them in the competitive aspect of the game.
oh, but this means that you don't have a restriction... you can make a tower, or a great rope race, or a map with 4 forts...
Actually, this is just the first that came to my mind...

franpa
28 Jan 2007, 22:59
you could make a wfw where you actually walk to the weapons lol... or something... im sure people who play "ropers" (which is worms 2 talk) won't be looking forward to it.

yakuza
28 Jan 2007, 23:25
Yeah yeah! Let's make a wfw map twice as big, so when there's 2 worms left it takes a lifetime!
No league game that I can think of will take advantage of this feature. But hey, it might be some roper **** you see, because I'm sure every hardcore Eliter wants bigger maps so they have to adapt to totally new style of playing[/sarcasm]

GoDxWyvern
28 Jan 2007, 23:33
- Larger Rope Races; those who love the scheme have much more space to rope through, without having to change the map. Also, lots of map styles for RR's that weren't imaginable before will be possible (very long climbs/scrolls, large void areas in the middle of the map, several fly parts in a row, etc, etc). Same goes for all the other racing schemes. Hmm, another idea... something triathlon-like?
- Imagine a Capture The Flag of two or three times the normal size, played with teams and a few more tools for climbing (lg, girders, etc). Spend half an hour or more, just to bring the worms together in the middle; send them to different parts of the map, and you'll have the feeling there are like three different games going on at the same time. The strategy aspect can be immense.
- Imagine an Elite game of two or three times the normal size and with eight worms, maybe with an adapted scheme. No idea how well that'd work, but it would be worth trying, wouldn't it? Awesome new default schemes could arise from it, if people take the time to develop them.
- How about a larger warmer? Wouldn't get boring half as quickly. ;)
- Maybe a hybrid of Fort and WFW? Could also work well, if the map is good!
And so much more could be done, even completely new stuff that hasn't been though of until now. The support for variable map sizes is definitely a major addition to the game.
Edit:
No league game that I can think of will take advantage of this feature.
Well, that's not so important anyway, I'm sure.

Melon
28 Jan 2007, 23:38
Although the new patch will give support for maps that are so stupidly large that nobody would ever need them that big, I think it's more about allowing map sizes to be flexible. Yes, massive maps will be a bit pointless at times, and no doubt the game will get flooded will maps that are far too large once it is released, but I think the benefits will far outweigh the disadvantages.
After a time, only the decent-sized maps will prevail. The naff massive ones will slowly dissapear. Things like rope races would benefit form being larger, as Wyvern as said, as would shoppas, but normal games and wfw wouldn't. It's down to the map creater to choose a sensible size.
And just wait until a mission editor eventually comes out (if it does). The new map size limits will definately become useful then. You could have all sorts of things, like parachuting down a mine shaft full of, uh... instant mines for example. Missions where you have to surviving against rising water could become more interesting, especially if a massive water raising limit is introduced. The list goes on and on, and then stops, like all good lists do.

yakuza
29 Jan 2007, 00:22
Triathlon maps? What's the point really, just play a RopeRace and then a BattleRace...
Larger warmer maps, can't see the point.
But hey, I don't want to put down the idea, surely it has some positive uses but in my opinion there's a lot of hype that won't last as long as you believe it will, but I'll gladly be proven wrong.
Well, that's not so important anyway, I'm sure.
For some people it is.

CyberShadow
29 Jan 2007, 00:37
yakuza, what's with the constant stream of pessimism in your posts lately? You're trying to bring down almost every idea discussed. "What's the point" of something if you can do the same with less hassle? "Triathlon"-like segmented maps sound great to me - you can play several schemes on one single map - non-stop fun with the variety element.
Generally, why are we writing all these new features? Who needs true color if people can just pretend that the map isn't dithered to a maximum of 113 colours? Why add a Fiddler-like weapon editor - look at the number of schemes out there with the current hard-coded weapons! And scripting is a horrible idea outright - think of all the security problems we, the <sarcasm>programmers well known for our sloppiness</sarcasm>, will surely introduce with it! :/

GoDxWyvern
29 Jan 2007, 00:40
Triathlon maps? What's the point really, just play a RopeRace and then a BattleRace...
There may be no point for a regular game, yes... ;)
Larger warmer maps, can't see the point.
More to do!
For some people it is.
I mean, it's not so important that the variable map sizes aren't quite appropriate for league games, because league games already are pretty cool the way they are. The only thing I can imagine for the advantage of competitive gaming anyway, without thinking for long, is a ranked server. The rest of the development is simply to make the game more enjoyable. At least that's how I see it.

Metal Alex
29 Jan 2007, 01:29
Look, there are more people thinking that this is better...
BUT I think something:
A guy who doesn't have internet won't be excited for those updates, if it's for improving wormnet. HECK, he probably won't be reading this :p.
I mean, it doesn't seem anything to you? no problem. But most of the rest, do see things. Maybe, you should ask yourself why. You probably think exactly the same, but I don't mind, it's your opinion...

yakuza
29 Jan 2007, 02:22
yakuza, what's with the constant stream of pessimism in your posts lately? You're trying to bring down almost every idea discussed. "What's the point" of something if you can do the same with less hassle? "Triathlon"-like segmented maps sound great to me - you can play several schemes on one single map - non-stop fun with the variety element.
Generally, why are we writing all these new features? Who needs true color if people can just pretend that the map isn't dithered to a maximum of 113 colours? Why add a Fiddler-like weapon editor - look at the number of schemes out there with the current hard-coded weapons! And scripting is a horrible idea outright - think of all the security problems we, the <sarcasm>programmers well known for our sloppiness</sarcasm>, will surely introduce with it! :/
I'm sorry, really. I'm just a bitter oldschool rankings fan.

franpa
29 Jan 2007, 04:19
if a proper terrain editor was built around scripting... like several of the things availible in it are just scripts but with a gui.... like visual basic kinda... then that would be awesome... id like to be able to change schemes via passing through zones marked on a map... it would make triathlons just that much better.

Vercetti
29 Jan 2007, 11:07
With larger maps, it will be interesting to see how far a worm can skim across water, fly from a rope or be launched from an explosion.

Chip
29 Jan 2007, 11:41
With larger maps it will be interesting to see the effects of Armageddon with damage x2.
Will it be the end of the world or will there be survivers?

Run
29 Jan 2007, 13:15
With larger maps, it will be interesting to see how far a worm can skim across water, fly from a rope or be launched from an explosion.
But we can already do that without big maps http://www.nanacide.com/images/Emoticons/confused.gif

Vercetti
29 Jan 2007, 15:06
But we can already do that without big maps http://www.nanacide.com/images/Emoticons/confused.gif
It will be better if you can actually see the worms, instead of just a number when they go outside of the current border limits. It could increase the entertainment factor when some worm gets blasted sky high and narrowly escapes death by landing on a small floating island.

SoLo
29 Jan 2007, 15:27
ShyGuy: full WWP compatibility is planned for 4.0, since it'll be a merge of W:A and WWP actually.
Could you explain what is gonna consist in this "merging"? There is a big community in WWP too, and we would like to know if we are going to get the same features, if both games will become only one new game or they will keep their own differences, or if it just consists in playing both games through the same Wormnet.
Thanks.

yakuza
29 Jan 2007, 15:49
SoLo, Search button.
Search button, SoLo.

CyberShadow
29 Jan 2007, 17:15
W:A users and WWP users will both be able to install W:A 4.0 using their W:A or WWP CDs. The resulting installation will be identical in content.
I'm sorry, really. I'm just a bitter oldschool rankings fan.
Actually, experimental support for ranks is already in the game. The WormNET servers have been patched up for it, but it requires a client-side registry setting to activate.
The corresponding setting is EnableRanking, and it's stored in the game's Options key (which is in HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Team17SoftwareLTD\Worms Armageddon\Options for W:A and HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Team17SoftwareLTD\Worms WorldParty\Options). DC told me that this was an experimental alternative systems for rankings introduced by Team17 and then abandoned in favor of a somewhat different system, so don't be surprised at it being present in WWP as well.
This system is still somewhat glitchy, and we wanted to introduce it as a surprise with the next W:A beta, with the current bugs fixed. But since it's taking long already, feel free to play around with it now.

Muzer
29 Jan 2007, 17:18
And if the search button becomes invisible:
I don't know if it's canged or not, but what was planned was:
Basically, you will be able to play WA with a WWP CD. WA's compoments that WWP doesn't have will be downloadable, so you can play WA even if you only own WWP. WWP will still be playable but only people not in the know will use it
EDIT: BEat me to it.

kikumbob
29 Jan 2007, 17:55
W:A users and WWP users will both be able to install W:A 4.0 using their W:A or WWP CDs. The resulting installation will be identical in content. And you are absolutely sure you are not doing anything illegal by merging two completely seperate games into one?

CyberShadow
29 Jan 2007, 18:38
And you are absolutely sure you are not doing anything illegal by merging two completely seperate games into one?
Team17's orders. ;)

kikumbob
29 Jan 2007, 20:38
Oh. I see you've thought of everything then.

SilPho
29 Jan 2007, 20:44
Team17's orders. ;)
Just thought I'd say that I think that is really cool. :) I sound like a two year old being shown a computer for the first time but I have to say, I envy you and DC.
Keep it up, can't wait to see the finished thing.

adamantium
30 Jan 2007, 02:10
Why add a Fiddler-like weapon editor - look at the number of schemes out there with the current hard-coded weapons!
The fiddler is the ONE thing I'm looking forward to the most! PLEASE SAY YOU'RE PUTTING IT IN! I know the game has a lot of potential as it is, but seriously, if FudgeBoy can create a magic homing cluster.... well, let's just say that it excites me to see what others can come up with. Sure, it'll get absurd at times, and noobs will try to make banana bombs that destroy the entire map, but people with a little sense could make some awesome stuff happen. I'm certain of it. It will open the doors to a whole world of scheme possibilities.

FuzzMaster
30 Jan 2007, 02:42
Um, yeah, not to be rude but I'd rather you just gave us the whole Fiddler remake as soon as possible instead of deciding to code us a bunch of features that are going to delay the one feature we've been waiting several years for that we always really wanted.
Granted, I'm excited you're going to this effort to code us a bunch of stuff, really, but I'm a bit upset that it means we could potentially be waiting another long period of time just to get it.

adamantium
30 Jan 2007, 04:03
Agreed! 1000%
Let's start the chant now:
We want Fiddler! ... We want fiddler! ... We want fiddler! ...

CaVeFiSH
30 Jan 2007, 10:56
Granted, I'm excited you're going to this effort to code us a bunch of stuff, really, but I'm a bit upset that it means we could potentially be waiting another long period of time just to get it.
The new schemes will require new configuration files... its planned creating a new scripting language for this, do you really think this can be coded and tested in 1 week or 1 month? Of course not, they can't spend 24hours/day in this...
CS said they run out of skilled programmers in this project so... it could take long time. We can't demand 'fast patches' which requires adding completely new features to this old, but wonderful :), game. So, lets wait and all will come out!

franpa
30 Jan 2007, 12:44
CaveFish, there saying that they should have focused on adding fiddler support instead of large maps etc. there not saying quickly also include fiddler support.

Muzer
30 Jan 2007, 17:24
Um... none of you can detect sarcasm. He was being sarcastic! He was just proving a point to yakuza or whatever his name is.

yakuza
30 Jan 2007, 18:05
Care to elaborate so I can see how that makes any sense?

Muzer
30 Jan 2007, 19:28
Because everyone was picking up on this:
"Why add a Fiddler-like weapon editor - look at the number of schemes out there with the current hard-coded weapons!"
Which was actually sarcasm towards you, and taken completely out of context.

yakuza
30 Jan 2007, 19:31
gotcha .

ohms
30 Jan 2007, 19:55
I havent heard anyone else suggest this, but I think the game lost something without it, which is...
the power bar being an actual bar instead of a trail of smoke.
When this was removed after the original worms, judging the power for grenade/cluster throws and bazooka strikes was just never the same. Whereas before you could try and accurately judge a throw, since then it's always been a rough guess as to whether you've judged the power right or not. Am I the only who thinks the game would benefit with it's return? (even as an option)

yakuza
30 Jan 2007, 20:08
I doubt many, if any, would approve this change.
I don't know what kind of problems you're having aiming, unless you're a super hardcore worms1 gamer that is too used to worms1 system.
I doubt there's many that experience a hard time aiming because they're too used to worms1 though.

Melon
30 Jan 2007, 20:13
I've played both and I prefer W:A's powerbar by far, although that's maybe because I'm so used to it now. When you go to fire a weapon, you don't need to divert your eyes away from your worm, as the power bar 'stretches' out of his gun.
Of course, the power bar in W:A is much smaller visually and I can see that some may argue that it makes it seem more innacurate, but I think changing it for default would be a no-no. Maybe it could be an option in the team settings, but definately not a scheme option. Nobody wants to enter a game only to find the power bar changed.
All in all though, I really don't think it's worth it. There are much more important things or DC and CS to work on than such a cosmetic issue.

ohms
30 Jan 2007, 20:29
I've played both and I prefer W:A's powerbar by far, although that's maybe because I'm so used to it now. When you go to fire a weapon, you don't need to divert your eyes away from your worm, as the power bar 'stretches' out of his gun.
I've become used to it too, but I play the game in a different way now, rarely using grenades/clusters. Bringing the power bar back wouldnt necessarily mean putting it back on the bottom of the screen either.
All in all though, I really don't think it's worth it. There are much more important things or DC and CS to work on than such a cosmetic issue.
we've probably had the 'smoke' power indicator too long now to go back (unless it was done in a brand new worms game), but I think it's more than a cosmetic change. grenade/cluster lobbing sessions, with each throw inching closer to it's target were common in the original worms, and I think it's the style of the power bar which has seen the end of that.
Basically, whatever structure the power indicator has, the main thing that's missing is seeing where the end of the bar is, hence you can't judge a half or quarter powered throw as well. This could even be done with the standard 'smoke' style indicator, if an outline of the power bare area is visible while you're holding the space bar. Even just a cone shape that appears when you hold space, so you know roughly what full, half, third, quarter power roughly are. You just need to know where the power indicator ends.
The more I think about it, the more I think this could be reintroduced/reimagined without straying too far visually from what we have in WA/WWP. (it could even be a team option, what king of gravesstone you have - what style of power bar you have...)

yakuza
30 Jan 2007, 21:01
A visual bar limit is something that could be useful for some people. I don't know if it will clash with the intentions of making WA notch-free, if that's still being looked into.

FuzzMaster
30 Jan 2007, 22:44
The new schemes will require new configuration files... its planned creating a new scripting language for this, do you really think this can be coded and tested in 1 week or 1 month? Of course not, they can't spend 24hours/day in this...
CS said they run out of skilled programmers in this project so... it could take long time. We can't demand 'fast patches' which requires adding completely new features to this old, but wonderful :), game. So, lets wait and all will come out!
I'm saying they shouldn't announce something we'd be been begging for and then delay it for two or so years, and then come back saying "Oh right, yes, well, that's coming BUT SO IS A BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF THAT WILL DELAY WHAT YOU TRULY WANT :D :D!!"

Plutonic
30 Jan 2007, 23:19
What YOU truely want maybe, but since when were you the entire community?

FuzzMaster
30 Jan 2007, 23:45
I'm assuming 'everyone', as in, a generalization, because way back when I recall plenty of "give us fiddler" or "make fiddler work". Not to mention custom weapons sound much more interesting to me, and several of my Worms peers, than say, bigger maps, or other promised features.
But hey, quick show of hands, who'd rather have Fiddler now, and get all the other fancy stuff later?

bonz
31 Jan 2007, 00:16
bigger maps
The bigger maps are great.
They can get a bit confusing though when you quickly try to find a worm since there is no minimap or zooming yet.
Holding the shift button to scroll faster finally comes to some use.

AndrewTaylor
31 Jan 2007, 01:08
I've become used to it too, but I play the game in a different way now, rarely using grenades/clusters. Bringing the power bar back wouldnt necessarily mean putting it back on the bottom of the screen either.
we've probably had the 'smoke' power indicator too long now to go back (unless it was done in a brand new worms game), but I think it's more than a cosmetic change. grenade/cluster lobbing sessions, with each throw inching closer to it's target were common in the original worms, and I think it's the style of the power bar which has seen the end of that.
Basically, whatever structure the power indicator has, the main thing that's missing is seeing where the end of the bar is, hence you can't judge a half or quarter powered throw as well. This could even be done with the standard 'smoke' style indicator, if an outline of the power bare area is visible while you're holding the space bar. Even just a cone shape that appears when you hold space, so you know roughly what full, half, third, quarter power roughly are. You just need to know where the power indicator ends.
The more I think about it, the more I think this could be reintroduced/reimagined without straying too far visually from what we have in WA/WWP. (it could even be a team option, what king of gravesstone you have - what style of power bar you have...)
You know, really, you should be going by the sound. As counterintuitive as it may sound, the ears are far better at that kind of thing than the eyes.

KRD
31 Jan 2007, 02:56
Considering the secondary power bar would make aiming easier, it should definitely not be a per-team option. Either everyone in a certain game should have it or no one. But as far as I'm concerned, that's beside the point. I'm against making the game easier in any way after all this time.
And as Yakuza mentioned, in competitive BnG games, a lot of people already use a measuring system to help them aim. The only thing stopping them from hitting each turn is the possibility of not getting the power right 100% of the time. In combination with a power bar on which you can mark certain power percentages on, that would just about kill my favourite scheme. [See priceless example from another game. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5ICA4HNot4&NR)]
As for Fiddler scheme support, I never was in favour of it being added to the game in the first place. Even the most enthusiastic believers in freedom of weapon making know the limitless possibilities would bring chaos to WormNet. Even though it's likely that the craze would calm down eventually and only true scheme gems would remain popular, the fear of it making an end to standardised schemes is justified.
Oh and Fiddler support isn't the only feature with a supposedly devoted following. I'd say the ranks junkies outnumber you!

Run
31 Jan 2007, 08:05
As for Fiddler scheme support, I never was in favour of it being added to the game in the first place. Even the most enthusiastic believers in freedom of weapon making know the limitless possibilities would bring chaos to WormNet. Even though it's likely that the craze would calm down eventually and only true scheme gems would remain popular, the fear of it making an end to standardised schemes is justified.
A simple solution to that would be to have fiddler-like schemes only permitted in a special channel, like #fiddlergoes ;)
Oh and Fiddler support isn't the only feature with a supposedly devoted following. I'd say the ranks junkies outnumber you!
Yeah this is the truth. And I don't even give a toss about ranks one bit! But I'm not going to complain if CS&DC focus on working on them.

KRD
31 Jan 2007, 09:39
A simple solution to that would be to have fiddler-like schemes only permitted in a special channel, like #fiddlergoes ;)
*Very much approves.*
#FiddleHeaven. #FiddleTime. #HiFiddlelity!
why KRD, must all teams be forced in a game to use the extra power bar or not? it should be set on a per user basis and not affected by the host.
Because using a more precise power bar than your opponent is cheating?

franpa
31 Jan 2007, 09:39
why KRD, must all teams be forced in a game to use the extra power bar or not? it should be set on a per user basis and not affected by the host.

ohms
31 Jan 2007, 11:08
Considering the secondary power bar would make aiming easier, it should definitely not be a per-team option. Either everyone in a certain game should have it or no one. But as far as I'm concerned, that's beside the point. I'm against making the game easier in any way after all this time.
I think the game is easier than it was in the original worms already, all the worms are closer together on a smaller land mass, you can reach any other worm pretty much and use a much wider variety of powerfull weapons on them. I think the original worms was harder for many reasons.
I wasn't suggesting a secondary power bar, just a translucent box or cone around the existing one to show the size of it when you press space so you can judge the power a little better. This would not make the game easier, it would not interfere much with the way the power indicator works now, it would just make the grenade and clusters viable weapons again.
With the inclusion of huge maps in 4.0, this would make the game more like the original worms I think, with the worms a lot smaller on a bigger playing field (which is a very good thing). It will change the nature of the game a little with the need to throw more weapons, so being able to better judge the power for these weapons that you throw (which is not a lot of them really), would give the game more variety again.
In short: if we're having massive maps, we will be making much more use of grenades and clusters, so we need to be able to judge the throws better.

bonz
31 Jan 2007, 11:23
why KRD, must all teams be forced in a game to use the extra power bar or not? it should be set on a per user basis and not affected by the host.
Because having an oldschool power bar gives you the advantage to estimate the power as a percentage of the whole bar.
E.g. you can quite precisely tell when the bar is half filled, thus always make 50% power shots.
With the current power indicator this is much harder.

Metal Alex
31 Jan 2007, 12:01
uhm... I think that's a bit of nonsense... If you are used to the current one, you can shoot perfectly at 50%, if you know when it's at 50%.
While with the other bar, you don't need to have played more. Let's say perfect for begginers :p

ohms
31 Jan 2007, 12:21
uhm... I think that's a bit of nonsense... If you are used to the current one, you can shoot perfectly at 50%, if you know when it's at 50%.
While with the other bar, you don't need to have played more. Let's say perfect for begginers :p
I doubt if most WA/WWP players could judge the power to 1/2 or 1/4 that well, or at all. Also, just because you put a marker there to indicate the size of the bar, doesn't mean people will get the shot they want every time, the current power indicator is much smaller than the original games' one anyway. At least you'd be able to try and judge the power based on a visual indicator, which I think is not possible right now, and like I said, there would be more need to do so with larger maps being implemented.
Golf games use a power bar, but that doesn't make them easy.
Also, the style of power bar can be decided in the game options before you play. Some people play with 'worm select' on, I think that makes the game too easy, but for some people it works, at least the choice is there. So before a match starts, either use the standard power indicator, or one with a slight visual border/marker around it to show it's size. 'Hardcore' players who think it's for noobs can play without it.
(I've been trying to get a screengrab so I can edit it to show what I mean, but I cannot get one using print screen.)

GrimOswald
31 Jan 2007, 12:26
(I've been trying to get a screengrab so I can edit it to show what I mean, but I cannot get one using print screen.)
Pressing Pause/Break in-game takes a screenshot and saves it into user/capture.

franpa
31 Jan 2007, 12:39
Because having an oldschool power bar gives you the advantage to estimate the power as a percentage of the whole bar.
E.g. you can quite precisely tell when the bar is half filled, thus always make 50% power shots.
With the current power indicator this is much harder.
if the end user doesn't want to use it, then they can only blame themselves for the disadvantage.

yakuza
31 Jan 2007, 13:48
I doubt if most WA/WWP players could judge the power to 1/2 or 1/4 that well, or at all. Also, just because you put a marker there to indicate the size of the bar, doesn't mean people will get the shot they want every time, the current power indicator is much smaller than the original games' one anyway. At least you'd be able to try and judge the power based on a visual indicator, which I think is not possible right now, and like I said, there would be more need to do so with larger maps being implemented.
You do not need percentages to be a successful bng player. And it is very much possible to judge the power right now, remember you have a little circle with a cross inside, that works wonders! When I want to hit with a 3 second nade I usually let go when the smoke bar hits the first border of the marker, or judge from there, little bit more, little bit less depending on the situation and so on. When playing Elites or other default schemes and banking, I just use feeling, many people are successful doing this, much more are even more successful than me, so I do believe you should start trying to adapt instead of trying to change things to fit your ways, as it doesn't seem to me, at all, that you have invested enough time to try and actually learn this new system and are just suggesting a change based on your premature failure.

Melon
31 Jan 2007, 14:19
With the power bar as it is now, I would safely say that I can get bazookas and grenades where I want them first time about 70% of the time. I do it by just having a gut instinct about where it's going to end up. I always mis-judge really strong winds though.
Anyway, given enough practice, you can master bazookas/grenades with the power bar as it is. That's what seperates the elite from the rest. I never liked the way that in Worms 1 it always descended into a continual loop of throwing grenades at slightly different powers each time unit it hit. In fact, I'd say that I personally feel it is EASIER to throw and land grenades where you want them W:A. But again, that's just me. If you remember that the 'power cone' ends up filling your crosshair at full power, you can judge from there.
Easy.

AndrewTaylor
31 Jan 2007, 15:34
Why do you need to know percentages? What you want is to know the absolute power you're using.
Which you can judge using the length, colour, or sound. One of those must work for you, surely?

ohms
31 Jan 2007, 16:01
I do believe you should start trying to adapt instead of trying to change things to fit your ways, as it doesn't seem to me, at all, that you have invested enough time to try and actually learn this new system and are just suggesting a change based on your premature failure.
hmmm, I don't recall changing anything, just making a suggestion based on a minor gripe I had with the game, I presume that's how many of the changes in these beta patches have come about.
I play worms with the same few friends usually, not interested in leagues or showing of any l33t skillz or anything, I just play to have fun, have a laugh, and thought I had a small idea which might make the game more acessible for other players, yes perhaps more new players might find it more useful than 'experts' like yourself, but, well, a place such as this is presumably, where one can express these ideas, and have others agree with them, or not.
Anyway, thanks Melon, for pointing out the fact that you can sort of judge the size of the bar from the crosshair. D'oh, I never sussed that in all my years of playing. :confused:
I'm getting the feeling that no one is really warming to this idea. Well, it don't matter, I'm looking forward to the features that have already been annouced for 4.0, and appreciate the effort going into it greatly. Don't blast a guy for trying to make suggestions. :)
Anyway, here's what I was on about...
http://www.sith.co.uk/wa403.gif
what I was suggesting, nothing major
http://www.sith.co.uk/wa402.gif
or just an outline if transparencies can't be done.
There, I'm done, I won't say anything about it again, I'll think of something else... ;)

ohms
31 Jan 2007, 16:03
Has anyone though of adding a zoom feature. ;)

Vader
31 Jan 2007, 16:36
I think adding translucency/outlines to mark out where the powerbar goes on one hand is unnecessary and on the other is akin to having aiming lines in a snooker game.
Maybe it could be adapted into the early training missions or something but then it's a question of development time versus the amount of use it will get. It would only really benefit people who'd never ever played a single Worms game ever, of which I think there are about 4 in the world. :P
It's not a bad suggestion but it does seem unnecessary.

AndrewTaylor
31 Jan 2007, 16:40
hmmm, I don't recall changing anything, just making a suggestion based on a minor gripe I had with the game
You mean, "I don't recall changing anything, just asking someone else to change it for me".
Looking at your screens, though, something occurred to me: can't you just judge it by the position of the aiming reticle?

Melon
31 Jan 2007, 16:42
Has anyone though of adding a zoom feature. ;)
Check post 95, or there abouts.
Anyway, transparency is already in the game. Have you tried pressing Alt+Delete? Although the colours are currently limited. To 256 in total, so I don't know if it would be visible against certain backgrounds.
I agree with Vader. It's not a bad idea, but whether it gets implemented or not is entirely down to DC/CS. I'm sure they'll see this and consider it.

ohms
31 Jan 2007, 17:21
You mean, "I don't recall changing anything, just asking someone else to change it for me".
please don't put words in my mouth, if you can quote me asking anyone then do it, instead of making stuff up.
I made a suggestion, and if I think of any other redundant ideas, be sure that I'll post them here and await your dizzying response.
Looking at your screens, though, something occurred to me: can't you just judge it by the position of the aiming reticle?
yeah, Melon did point this out too. so, maybe my idea is unnecessary, it was just a thought, and I thought someone might find it agreeable. guess not, I'm over it now. :)
(also, I thought this might be a possible compromise between the current style and old worms1 style power bar, which I still prefer)
Next!

AndrewTaylor
31 Jan 2007, 21:00
please don't put words in my mouth, if you can quote me asking anyone then do it, instead of making stuff up.
Oh for heaven's sake... How much difference is there, really, between "I would like you to..." and "Please could you..."? I mean, okay, you didn't ask as such, but it's not like I'm misrepresenting your position, is it?

TheTrouble
31 Jan 2007, 21:13
I would like to be able to play WA without putting my WA cd in drive every time. Do you know how old this game is and how long I`ve been putting that game in my drive? If id sotware can do it in latest patch(1.32) for Quake 3, I don`t see the reason why Team 17 wouldn`t do it either(remove the cd check). I know that people would have to copy some stuff from their WA cd`s to hard drives, in order to work, but you could put it at least like an option. Just remove that cd check, this game is far from being comerciall for selling, and we who have the original don`t won`t to scratch our cd`s any more.

GoDxWyvern
31 Jan 2007, 21:22
Or use Daemon Tools, like everyone with this preference does.

Squirminator2k
31 Jan 2007, 21:30
I would like to be able to play WA without putting my WA cd in drive every time. Do you know how old this game is and how long I`ve been putting that game in my drive? If id sotware can do it in latest patch(1.32) for Quake 3, I don`t see the reason why Team 17 wouldn`t do it either(remove the cd check). I know that people would have to copy some stuff from their WA cd`s to hard drives, in order to work, but you could put it at least like an option. Just remove that cd check, this game is far from being comerciall for selling, and we who have the original don`t won`t to scratch our cd`s any more.
The difference there, Trouble, is that the Quake III Engine is now Open Source, and thus id have no problem with the game being distributed freely anymore. WA, however, is not. WA is still being sold brand spanking new, and I doubt Team 17 would want to make it easier for people to illegally distribute a game that is still, I assume, bringing in a bit of money for them.

AndrewTaylor
31 Jan 2007, 21:32
this game is far from being comerciall for selling
W:A is still in shops. I conclude from that that people must be buying it, because shops don't have all that space for free. And, I suppose, as long as a publisher has a deal to distribute it, there's always the chance Team17 don't have the option to remove the CD check.

TheTrouble
31 Jan 2007, 22:10
That`s funny because that protection doesn`t mean anything. If somebody want to download WA illegally from torrents, it can be done pretty easy. And it`s already an image so you don`t have to make one, and that protection is not going to do anything about it. Am I right?
So what`s the point of CD checking than? You said it yourself that you made images of your original WA CDs in order to play your WA, but wouldn`t be easier just to install it and play it? Like I said that CD protection is useless today.

Squirminator2k
31 Jan 2007, 22:13
Yes, but removing the check just makes it easier to copy, and that is probably not something Team 17 want to happen. Starforce was put into effect in Worms 4: Mayhem for a reason.

Run
31 Jan 2007, 22:30
I would like to be able to play WA without putting my WA cd in drive every time.
http://www.nanacide.com/wahelp/tpp-nocd.php

Vader
31 Jan 2007, 22:31
W:A is still in shops.
I would happily buy a European boxed copy of W:A v1.0 if it had the manual and stuff all tickedyboo.
That might just be me, though.
Oh, and if anyone has one then contact me. ;)

TheTrouble
31 Jan 2007, 22:43
Well explain it to me how will the removing of the cd checking protection affect the easier copying of the game. You can still make an image and give it to anyone you know(and it`s really easy), cd checking wouldn`t help you to stop copying the game if you want to do it.
And Quake 3 engine is open source now, but in shops Quake 3 is still more expensive than WA which costs 5 euros(SoldOut WA release).

[UFP]Ghost
31 Jan 2007, 22:49
I would happily buy a European boxed copy of W:A v1.0 if it had the manual and stuff all tickedyboo.
That might just be me, though.
Oh, and if anyone has one then contact me. ;)
me 2, anyday i wish i could find one.

ohms
1 Feb 2007, 00:50
okay, you didn't ask as such, but it's not like I'm misrepresenting your position, is it?
I don't want to make a big deal out of it, but you make it sound like I demanded it be included in the next update.
I've no right to do anything of that sort, but I can make a suggestion, post it, and see what people think of it.
Another good feature of the orginal worms (where all my suggestions seem to come from), was the different properties for level types. The snow levels being much more slippery than others, and the alien levels having low gravity, etc.
Would be cool to play around with these options and variables again. What do you folks think of that? I miss a lot of stuff from Worms1. Maybe it's just these rose tinted specs I'm wearing.
Just had a game of W:A now, and I can't wait for the update. Big maps will be most welcome.

ohms
1 Feb 2007, 00:52
I would happily buy a European boxed copy of W:A v1.0 if it had the manual and stuff all tickedyboo.
keep your eyes on eBay, old PC games usually sell for next to nothing.

Plutonic
1 Feb 2007, 01:13
Would be cool to play around with these options and variables again. What do you folks think of that? I miss a lot of stuff from Worms1. Maybe it's just these rose tinted specs I'm wearing.
I didnt think much of your first idea, mostly because it it redundant - i use sound to judge mine mostly or 'how-far-across-the-reticle' when needed.
Adjusting gravity, friction and other properties is probablt a not a bad idea (as an option) but is probably covered by 'fiddler like schemes' and will be done when its done.

ShyGuy
1 Feb 2007, 01:19
So, you guys set a release date for this puppy yet?

HariSeldon
1 Feb 2007, 01:56
You do not need percentages to be a successful bng player. And it is very much possible to judge the power right now, remember you have a little circle with a cross inside, that works wonders! When I want to hit with a 3 second nade I usually let go when the smoke bar hits the first border of the marker, or judge from there, little bit more, little bit less depending on the situation and so on. When playing Elites or other default schemes and banking, I just use feeling, many people are successful doing this, much more are even more successful than me, so I do believe you should start trying to adapt instead of trying to change things to fit your ways, as it doesn't seem to me, at all, that you have invested enough time to try and actually learn this new system and are just suggesting a change based on your premature failure.
I agree, no lines are needed. Back when I won the BnG title in January 2000 I was mainly using the "sound" of the shot power increasing. Once I got the angle lined up sometimes I would just hit the spacebar with my eyes closed to focus on the sound.

franpa
1 Feb 2007, 02:33
i would rather NOT be forced to have some retarded Transparency or outline of the power bar.

Run
1 Feb 2007, 09:35
i would rather NOT be forced to have some retarded Transparency or outline of the power bar.
ohms said that it should be optional

ohms
1 Feb 2007, 09:49
ohms said that it should be optional
aah, it was a dumb idea, I just wanted the worms 1 power bar back. :)
I haven't really thought of any good gameplay ideas yet, but how about
this. I'm not sure if this has been suggested already, or is being
implemented,as it's quite a common feature (especially on the xbox).
Custom background music during games. You can set the bg music to
play mp3s from a folder in /User where you plop all your tracks.
Maybe even have minimal controls for it in the Esc menu in-game, to
skip track, loop, random, etc.
Good idea? Worth spending time on? Remotely possible? Anyone care?
Answers on a postcard.

bonz
1 Feb 2007, 09:56
Custom background music during games. You can set the bg music to
play mp3s from a folder in /User where you plop all your tracks.
Maybe even have minimal controls for it in the Esc menu in-game, to
skip track, loop, random, etc.
Has been suggested multiple times.
Most people, including myself, use an audio player like Winamp and remotely control it from within the game.
If such a feature should get implemented, it would be better if you only had to put shortcuts into such a folder instead of MP3s themselves. Like they did it in GTA:SA with the user radio station.

adamantium
1 Feb 2007, 10:14
Custom background music during games. You can set the bg music to
play mp3s from a folder in /User where you plop all your tracks.
Maybe even have minimal controls for it in the Esc menu in-game, to
skip track, loop, random, etc.
You can already change your BG music using FileOverride in WormKit (http://worms.thecybershadow.net/wormkit/), but you're right. Some track controls would be cool.
-Note of advice: I wouldn't bother with DirectWormNET (in WormKit) if I were you. It's not too cool. It never worked right for me, and it locked up worms pretty good on me once while I was trying to make it work. Had to do a hard re-boot.
Installing WormKit will also automatically skip the 3 intro screens for you. Yay! 7 extra seconds of worming every day!

adamantium
1 Feb 2007, 11:30
Wow, ok... maybe you guys already know this, but I just discovered it. At the WormKit page (http://worms.thecybershadow.net/wormkit/), hit the Misc tab at the top right. A water color changing tool! Fiddler had that function, but it never freakin worked.
You gotta use FileOverride along with it for it to work.
Man... having water that looks like lava is wicked!
I know this ain't on the topic of the patch, but felt it needed to be shared.

GoDxWyvern
1 Feb 2007, 11:49
Search for "water color editor" and you'll find this: http://forum.team17.co.uk/showthread.php?t=29333&highlight=water+color+editor ;)

yakuza
1 Feb 2007, 13:35
I would happily buy a European boxed copy of W:A v1.0 if it had the manual and stuff all tickedyboo.
That might just be me, though.
Oh, and if anyone has one then contact me. ;)
I have the big fat yellow Manual, in spanish :>

Muzer
1 Feb 2007, 17:40
wkdirectwormnet works for me. You probably didn't download the custom server list like it told you on the readme.
Oh, and everyone knows about the water colour editor.
And it's not fiddler's fault it doesn't work, it's the guys who made WA US and SOS version.

adamantium
2 Feb 2007, 00:10
wkdirectwormnet works for me. You probably didn't download the custom server list like it told you on the readme.
I did download the custom server list. That's when my system totally froze up.
I'll check out wkdirectwormnet. Thanks!

plaf
2 Feb 2007, 05:13
I did download the custom server list. That's when my system totally froze up.
I'll check out wkdirectwormnet. Thanks!
you can use this "list" i made before getting the wormkit, it's just a big link that uses all the screen so i used it to click wherever to login :p
(it's not that pretty, though...)

Muzer
2 Feb 2007, 17:27
Use cybershadow's. It's much better and it works with wkdirectwormnet.

Vader
2 Feb 2007, 20:02
Installing WormKit will also automatically skip the 3 intro screens for you. Yay! 7 extra seconds of worming every day!
You can do this without WormKit by simply adding /nointro at the end of the shortcut target as follows:

ArcBeetle
4 Feb 2007, 18:23
So, you guys set a release date for this puppy yet?
when they finish it

ShyGuy
5 Feb 2007, 04:09
Very helpful.

bonz
5 Feb 2007, 04:16
Very helpful.
When it's finished and all of the tester have drunk their beers. http://www.nanacide.com/images/Emoticons/beer.png

Run
5 Feb 2007, 08:06
Very helpful.
You're right it isn't very helpful, but it is the most helpful answer you'll ever, ever get.

ShyGuy
5 Feb 2007, 22:56
I don't know, maybe I just found this thread to be a tease to me :|

Plutonic
6 Feb 2007, 18:50
Then dont read it and you wont be teased by it. I thought it was quite clear that the next beta wasnt meant to be announced yet, but due to leakes the anouncment was forced.

Chip
6 Feb 2007, 20:18
Here's a thought, is there any way for Deadcode to obtain the worms 1 terrains from team17 that never made it into Worms Armageddon and add them into a patch?
So far we have from Worms 1:
1. The Beach
2. The mountain and sheep
3. Hell
4. Plain Forest
5. Desert
Why not have the lot and get the last few which are:
6. Halloween
7. Military Forest
8. Alien Moon
9. Snow
10. Candy
Also as I have heard many times that WA and WWP will become merged, does that mean WA will then have the WWP terrains added to it (If WWP has any new ones that is)

Plutonic
7 Feb 2007, 00:35
WA will be getting the extra unused terrains that were on the WWP CD.

bonz
7 Feb 2007, 00:47
Deadcode has once told me that the landscape terrain tiles are going to get customizable.
So everyone could make their own ones.
I'd rather see the terrains "dinos" and "domestic" from the WWP CD and the unused W1 ones get implemented properly by DC/CS so there is only one definite version of those.

Metal Alex
7 Feb 2007, 13:22
WA will be getting the extra unused terrains that were on the WWP CD.
I may start drwaing my own custom ones... :p
Yes, I'm very bored :(

bonz
7 Feb 2007, 14:33
I may start drwaing my own custom ones... :p
Yes, I'm very bored :(
Now? Before you can actually use your creations?

Run
7 Feb 2007, 14:44
Now? Before you can actually use your creations?
Depends how long it takes him and how long that particular update takes :)
I had a great idea for a terrain set but I've forgotten what it was

Chip
7 Feb 2007, 16:51
I too have also thought of loads of cool terrain themes but I never thought that we would ever be able to actualy use our own custom ones.
I have a question relating to this: When the game generates its own terrains - when it places down the terrain sprites (I mean these types of terrain sprites (http://yoda.arachsys.com/worms/wa/anims/level/construction/dumper.gif)) can the game flip them around or are they always fixed in the position they are drawn?

yakuza
7 Feb 2007, 19:38
Feature:
Texture mix up, the posibility to choose the terrain texture (main land looks and grass) and the objects from another texture or a few other textures.
So we could have a cheese terrain with fruits etc
Chip:
Just go play a game or two for the answer.

SilPho
7 Feb 2007, 20:08
Out of curiosity, the new features were mostly outlined on page one just under a month ago, after all of these questions \ suggestions \ discussions amongst members, have the plans for the new beta changed?
I'm not expecting you to say what has changed exactly since I know you keep it secret for a reason, I'm just wondering yes or no, has anything changed?
(worth pointing out to other members, if an answer is returned to this, probably no point in asking "what" or "why not" since we all know how unlikely follow up information is going to be).

CyberShadow
7 Feb 2007, 21:04
The plans for the next beta haven't changed much - right now we're just trying to get it released (actually Deadcode's doing all the work). This doesn't mean that we have ignored your suggestions, and we'll take them into account for future updates.

Run
7 Feb 2007, 22:05
I have a question relating to this: When the game generates its own terrains - when it places down the terrain sprites (I mean these types of terrain sprites (http://yoda.arachsys.com/worms/wa/anims/level/construction/dumper.gif)) can the game flip them around or are they always fixed in the position they are drawn?
Yeah they flip around
So if you're thinking of using text... ;)

yakuza
7 Feb 2007, 23:26
Do they really flip around or just mirror?

Run
8 Feb 2007, 09:05
Explain the difference?

Lex
8 Feb 2007, 09:29
The terrain objects can do backflips and somersaults! They can even do your laundry or mow the grass! You can eat them for breakfast or take them to a movie! Only $999.99.

franpa
8 Feb 2007, 10:26
Explain the difference?
the difference would be in how the game is coded... the end reult would be the same tho.

AndrewTaylor
8 Feb 2007, 10:57
the difference would be in how the game is coded... the end reult would be the same tho.
I'm not sure that makes any sense, and if it does, it certainly doesn't matter.

yakuza
8 Feb 2007, 15:08
Explain the difference?
Flip around could be any Xº whereas mirror is always a 90º turn?

Run
8 Feb 2007, 15:16
Flip around could be any Xº whereas mirror is always a 90º turn?
Neither of those are correct definitions - you're speaking of rotation transformations, whereas mirroring and flipping are (the same?) reflection transformations.

yakuza
8 Feb 2007, 15:28
oh I see.
I must of gotten confused by the terms "flipping, backflip, frontflip" and basically anything that has flipping in it and implies rotating passing through every angle untill the one desired (as this is the only posible way to rotate in real life).
So I assumed that by flipping you ment that a worms map object was randomly (between every grades) "rotated". But I was just pointing out that it could only appear in 4 positioins, hence the term mirroring.

Vader
8 Feb 2007, 15:31
The terrain objects are mirrored but never rotated.
Their top- and bottom-most pixel will always be their top- and bottom-most pixel but their right-most pixel will be the left-most pixel when mirrored, if you see what I mean.

AndrewTaylor
8 Feb 2007, 15:43
Neither of those are correct definitions - you're speaking of rotation transformations, whereas mirroring and flipping are (the same?) reflection transformations.
Flipping and mirroring are generally used interchangeably. Some rather patronising art packages, though, will use "mirroring" for X-reflection (what happens in Worms) and "flipping" for Y-reflection (what happens in ponds).
oh I see.
I must of gotten confused by the terms "flipping, backflip, frontflip" and basically anything that has flipping in it and implies rotating passing through every angle untill the one desired (as this is the only posible way to rotate in real life).
So I assumed that by flipping you ment that a worms map object was randomly (between every grades) "rotated". But I was just pointing out that it could only appear in 4 positioins, hence the term mirroring.
They can only appear in 2 positions, mirrored and not-mirrored.
Nobody in the history of the world has coded a rotation algorithm that goes through all the intermediate angles before reaching the desired one -- partly because it would take infinite time to complete but mostly because it doesn't make any sense.

Chip
8 Feb 2007, 21:28
What have I started?
I should of never menchioned flipping in the first place :o

Lex
9 Feb 2007, 04:56
Nobody in the history of the world has coded a rotation algorithm that goes through all the intermediate angles before reaching the desired one -- partly because it would take infinite time to complete but mostly because it doesn't make any sense.Baaahahaha! That's brilliant, Andrew. :D

Vader
9 Feb 2007, 23:27
Nobody in the history of the world has coded a rotation algorithm that goes through all the intermediate angles before reaching the desired one -- partly because it would take infinite time to complete but mostly because it doesn't make any sense.
I assume he meant through 360 degrees, meaning it would take 359 operations at the most. That's a bit less than infinity, I think.
Or am I missing something?

Plasma
9 Feb 2007, 23:50
...whereas mirror is always a 90º turn?
And I have no idea whatsoever why the hell you thought that...

Etho
10 Feb 2007, 01:14
English isn't yakuza's first language. Give him a break this time. The word "flip" has more than 1 meaning; and understandably, can mix people up.

yakuza
10 Feb 2007, 18:42
And I have no idea whatsoever why the hell you thought that...
My mistake, although totally irrelevant.
All that confused me though is that I thought flip would imply 359 possible positions for an object.

Lex
10 Feb 2007, 19:13
The misinterpretation makes sense. In many 2D computer games, the character doing a mid-air somersault or "flip" is represented by a rotation on the screen.
In Elasto Mania (a 2D, side-view motorcycle game), for example, there are two transformations which can be applied to the motorcycle and its rider (a rotation and a mirror), but most people would tend to call the rotating transformation a "flip" due to that same action on a motorcycle in 3D reality also being called a flip. In Elasto Mania, the character can also switch the direction he's facing instantaneously, so the word, "flip", is ambiguous there.
My brother and I became quite good at Elasto Mania. I remember watching him play a difficult level, and telling him to "flip" at a certain point in the level. He misinterpreted me, thinking I wanted him to rotate, when I was actually referring to the instant direction switch transformation. At that point, he and I debated the meaning of "flip" in that case, and eventually decided it was ambiguous.

Etho
10 Feb 2007, 19:32
The two meanings being confused here are "cause to turn over quickly" (such as a backflip) and the mirroring of an image. To "flip" does not mean to rotate. A rotated image has a different result than a mirrored image.

Lex
11 Feb 2007, 02:16
Right. To clarify, there are two meanings of "flip".
A "flip" as in a "back flip" is a full rotation, not ending until the process is complete, and is not equal to a "rotation", which can stop at any angle.

adamantium
17 Feb 2007, 11:59
I know... I already asked this question earlier in the thread, but can animated gifs as graves be added? Is there a reason they can't? Afraid people will make ridiculously long ones?

Metal Alex
17 Feb 2007, 15:13
I know... I already asked this question earlier in the thread, but can animated gifs as graves be added? Is there a reason they can't? Afraid people will make ridiculously long ones?
I don't know how the palette works with gifs, but, if you meet the size limit, there would be no problem. The problem, however, is to let the game recognise gifs, since bmps were already recognised in one way: maps, so it would have been more easy.

Squirminator2k
17 Feb 2007, 15:16
Isn't the GIF filetype still copyrighted, like MP3?

Metal Alex
17 Feb 2007, 15:27
Isn't the GIF filetype still copyrighted, like MP3?
now, that seems a problem...

Dando
17 Feb 2007, 15:36
no not really. There is another way around this. simply make your own animated strips. i.e. in adobe. Ob, the progrmmer would have to set the specs, but this can be done, and would mean skipping gif. There are ways this can be done, with or without gif

M3ntal
17 Feb 2007, 16:18
http://www.vlad1.com/~vladimir/projects/apng/

SilPho
17 Feb 2007, 21:34
There is currently already a way to use in game sprites as gravestones is there not? If I remember correctly it has something to do with changing the bit value of the team data, which come to think of it is probably done by TeamED.
Custom animated graves I believe remain elusive at this point in time.
As an alternative to APNG there is always the way in which WA displays the falling background debris, standard bmp files arranged like a vertical comic strip.

Alien King
17 Feb 2007, 21:35
Custom animated graves I believe remain elusive at this point in time.
Mostly because it's impossible. At least, in the sense most people mean.

Chip
17 Feb 2007, 21:44
But....the game allready has animated graves, can't we just make ours the same way Team17 did theres?

Metal Alex
17 Feb 2007, 22:01
But....the game allready has animated graves, can't we just make ours the same way Team17 did theres?
those are bigger, in Kb, you know. I mean: every player has them, so they won't be sent... The problem is, custom ones do :confused:

Squirminator2k
17 Feb 2007, 22:22
As an alternative to APNG there is always the way in which WA displays the falling background debris, standard bmp files arranged like a vertical comic strip.
It only uses this method for the frontend debris, not the in-game stuff.

bonz
17 Feb 2007, 22:28
those are bigger, in Kb, you know. I mean: every player has them, so they won't be sent... The problem is, custom ones do :confused:
Not a valid argument anymore.
I just extracted grave1.spr and the .bmp strip with its 20 frames has merely 72kb.
Whereas the last oversized .png map (5760*2088) I played online has 141kb; and that's way below the limits.
I bet when the first beta with huge map support is out, we will have to get used to unusually long loading times anyway.

Alien King
17 Feb 2007, 22:52
But....the game allready has animated graves, can't we just make ours the same way Team17 did theres?
No. The game collects its sprites from a sprite directory file (gfx.dir, or something). You can change these sprites for yourself, but you cannot add any, and if you did, then game would not recognise them and would therefore, not load them.

AndrewTaylor
18 Feb 2007, 00:09
You know we'll just end up with a load of fake weapon crate graves.

Alien King
18 Feb 2007, 00:24
You know we'll just end up with a load of fake weapon crate graves.
We get that now.

bonz
18 Feb 2007, 00:25
We get that now.
The animation is a bit slower though.

franpa
18 Feb 2007, 01:55
and the grave faces the direction of your worm when it died.

Run
18 Feb 2007, 10:19
This is why I think animated graves should be allowed, but they shouldn't be sent across the network so nobody actually sees them.
No one would bother making an animated grave, then. Problem solved!

CyberShadow
18 Feb 2007, 13:50
Then what's the point of all the work involved in implementing them? :-/

Run
18 Feb 2007, 15:01
Exactly ;)

Chip
18 Feb 2007, 22:06
Indeedly :)

bonz
19 Feb 2007, 00:34
Normally gravestones are made of stone, not of wobbly rubber anyway.

AndrewTaylor
19 Feb 2007, 10:32
If and when Fiddler-type customisation is added, it'd be nice if we could import custom (animated) sprites for our weapons. Then perhaps the same custom animation loader could be used for gravestones -- the default animated ones are just regular sprites already, so if sprites were imported it'd be relatively simple (probably) to allow their selection as graves.

Chip
19 Feb 2007, 11:11
it'd be nice if we could import custom (animated) sprites for our weapons.
Thats what I suggested many a year ago :D
It would be nice for my nail bomb to not look like a normal grenade or my grenade launcher to not look like a bazooka. I realy hope that this suggestion does get added as it'll allow total and fully customisation for oour weapons.
I also would like the new custom made weapons to not have to replace an existing weapon and instead could be stored on a second weapon grid (right click once in game to bring up the weapon panel and then a right click again to switch to a second panel - just like on worms 1)

yakuza
19 Feb 2007, 14:03
If that get's added I hope its exclusively client side

bonz
19 Feb 2007, 14:35
it'd be nice if we could import custom (animated) sprites for our weapons.
Well, if the Sheep-on-a-rope, the laser and the black shotgun get added, they are completely new sprites and grid symbols, so the same method of adding them could be used for custom weapons.
I also would like the new custom made weapons to not have to replace an existing weapon and instead could be stored on a second weapon grid (right click once in game to bring up the weapon panel and then a right click again to switch to a second panel - just like on worms 1)
Of course, everything else would just be stupid.
Two pages in the weapons menu is a great idea.
If that get's added I hope its exclusively client side
Which addition do you mean?

AndrewTaylor
19 Feb 2007, 14:39
Well, if the Sheep-on-a-rope, the laser and the black shotgun get added, they are completely new sprites and grid symbols, so the same method of adding them could be used for custom weapons.
Not if that method is "pester Deadcode until he adds them"...

Alien King
19 Feb 2007, 14:42
it'd be nice if we could import custom (animated) sprites for our weapons.
You can, it's just all client side and rather messy.

AndrewTaylor
19 Feb 2007, 14:46
You can, it's just all client side and rather messy.
That's not really "importing"; that's "hacking". "Importing" would be a clean interface that added things that were supposed to be added to a game that was expecting to receive them, and it would all work properly and probably would work online.

bonz
19 Feb 2007, 14:47
Not if that method is "pester Deadcode until he adds them"...
What? There's another working method?

Alien King
19 Feb 2007, 14:51
That's not really "importing"; that's "hacking". "Importing" would be a clean interface that added things that were supposed to be added to a game that was expecting to receive them, and it would all work properly and probably would work online.
Oh right! You want something official!

yakuza
19 Feb 2007, 21:41
Which addition do you mean?
The weapon sprite editing and grave stuff.

Plutonic
21 Feb 2007, 18:40
weapon sprite editing would be for new weapons, not to change current ones I should think.

Muzer
21 Feb 2007, 18:47
Seconded .

franpa
22 Feb 2007, 00:41
i seriously think new sprites for new weapons etc. should NOT get transferred between people each time they wanna play a game.... unless you want w:a to end up like unreal tournament o_O most games on there require you to download megabytes of models, skins, music, speech, crap and so on and so forth.....
i seriously doubt we NEED the models to play the games on UT properly but it is enforced on us... i only once saw a game that had a optional file to download.... but there was also megabytes of necessary crap to put up with prior to reaching that optional file.
keep everything client side.

Muzer
22 Feb 2007, 08:32
As long as they don't go crazy there are only a few files to download.

AndrewTaylor
22 Feb 2007, 10:16
i seriously think new sprites for new weapons etc. should NOT get transferred between people each time they wanna play a game.... unless you want w:a to end up like unreal tournament o_O most games on there require you to download megabytes of models, skins, music, speech, crap and so on and so forth.....
In fairness, the sprites in W:A are about the size of desktop icons. When you're already transferring a 1.3 million pixel full-colour landscape I don't think a couple of custom weapons are going to make much of a dent.

SilPho
22 Feb 2007, 13:56
Even if you downloaded one of those new huge maps, team information (including custom graves and flags), few weapon sprites etc it would still fit in under one meg.
Hell, you could still add a 3 or 4 megabyte sound scheme per team and most of us with broadband wouldn't notice much of a delay in downloading them. (I'm not suggesting it, I'm just making a point).
I'm all for custom weapon sprites, provided they don't create postpone the next release any more so. I'd assume they'd be in a much later version anyway but you know what I mean.
Actually just had a thought for one potential use of custom weapon sprites... invisible weapons. Imagine throwing a grenade style weapon and not being able to tell where it went until it blows up. Adds a lot of skill to BnG as well as a lot of hilarity to other schemes.

AndrewTaylor
22 Feb 2007, 14:12
Actually just had a thought for one potential use of custom weapon sprites... invisible weapons. Imagine throwing a grenade style weapon and not being able to tell where it went until it blows up. Adds a lot of skill to BnG as well as a lot of hilarity to other schemes.
That's brilliant. You could do it, I think, with the Fiddler -- I'm pretty sure there's a "no sprite" option in there already. I might have to try this tomorrow.

[UFP]Ghost
22 Feb 2007, 21:57
if you do and it works, could you posted an edited graphics file : o)

yakuza
22 Feb 2007, 22:01
Take into account that there's a huge userbase that play W:A instead of say... Counter Strike because they have bad connection and a bad computer.

Plutonic
23 Feb 2007, 00:34
Take into account that there's a huge userbase that play W:A instead of say... Counter Strike because they have bad connection and a bad computer.
Huge ?

franpa
23 Feb 2007, 03:57
Even if you downloaded one of those new huge maps, team information (including custom graves and flags), few weapon sprites etc it would still fit in under one meg.
Hell, you could still add a 3 or 4 megabyte sound scheme per team and most of us with broadband wouldn't notice much of a delay in downloading them. (I'm not suggesting it, I'm just making a point).
I'm all for custom weapon sprites, provided they don't create postpone the next release any more so. I'd assume they'd be in a much later version anyway but you know what I mean.
Actually just had a thought for one potential use of custom weapon sprites... invisible weapons. Imagine throwing a grenade style weapon and not being able to tell where it went until it blows up. Adds a lot of skill to BnG as well as a lot of hilarity to other schemes.
it would be incredibly noticeable to anyone on 512/128 or lower... it adds seconds to the start of EVERY game.... it puts more load on EVERYONE.... it is bad idea.
3-4mb per team.... hmmmmmm so your saying that we should make it take minutes before we can start playing? here in Australia we aint got A+ grade internet for cheap unlike several places around the globe.
are you trying to enforce a ban on people with dial up and/or inferior broadband?

Etho
23 Feb 2007, 06:21
It would be awesome if W:A had better support for custom media in games. This is especially so now that most players have an internet connection that could handle the larger download sizes. There is a way to please everyone here. The solutions are higher compression and more options.
Higher Compression:
This has already been discussed before, but I will say it again. Worms utilizes a lot of older technology and is not nearly as efficient as it could be. Instead of storing flags and graves as space wasting *.bmp images, the wonderfulness of *.png compression could be used. Instead of storing fanfares and sound banks as space wasting *.wav sound files, the wonderfulness of *.ogg compression could be used. Doing this would dramatically reduce the file size of all W:A media and time length of file transfers.
More Options:
Obviously, a 56k user is not going to want to download 4 MB of data every game he plays. Yet, having a few a simple check boxes in the options is all that's needed to overcome this problem.
A client should be able to choose which media he would like to download when he joins a game. If he wants to download soundbanks, fanfares, animated graves, or animated flags; then all he would need to do is enable these options. Those 56k users can disable them all and use default ones. These media serve to enhance the enjoyability of the game but do not effect game play.
It would be nice if limits could be set. Lets say a client or a host sets a 2 MB limit on file transfers. Then maybe only 1 of the 3 custom soundbanks being used will get transfered and the remaining 2 will become defaults.
Also beneficial, would be more options in the game setup screen. If a download is taking too long it would be nice if the host or the client could simply click a cancel button to use a default for these types of media. And please please please!! a progress report listing the download % of each file, total files, and text or images showing which file is currently being downloaded.
Transfer Changes:
One significant problem arises if large files get transfered in a game. A client needs to send the file to the host and then the host needs to send the file to the other clients.
from 1 Client -(2MB, 15 secs)-> to Host -(6MB, 45 secs)-> to 3 Clients
It will take 15 seconds before the host gets the 2MB file and another 45 seconds to send it to the 3 other clients. Those 15 seconds can be axed if the host doesn't have to wait until it gets the entire file. File transfers could be changed so that the host sends whatever he has received of the file as he gets it instead of wasting time waiting to get the whole thing.
Who gets the files first? Priorities should determine this. Priorities could be set amoungst the file types themselves. Obviously, the teams, scheme, and map get top priority. But then the smaller files, animated flags, animated graves, and fanfares, might get sent before soundbanks. Then priorities could be set amoungst the players. The first person to join the game or to put a team in might receive first priority. The host could even manually choose who gets priority (such as a friend) by clicking a button next to his name.
It would be wise to save fanfares, soundbanks, and maps to the player's computer so that these do not need to be downloaded again in the future. Again, this could be an option.
And finally, time is money. You'll notice even now that after everyone finishes downloading the teams, scheme, and map; the game does not instantly start. Sometimes there is a good 15, 30, 60! seconds before everyone lights up and the game starts. Less important data could be sent during this time. Why waste it? However, this should not delay the starting of the game. This data is not needed and should be cancelled if the game starts before the transfer finishes.
Heck, if you really wanted to get crazy, data transfers could even continue in a game. I've known people who can play online with a 14.4 modem with hardly any lag (1 to 2 kb/s?). Surely it wouldn't be a problem for a 150 kb/s connection to continue with a file transfer at this time. But this is a crazy idea because the flags, graves, and soundbanks would have to change during a game. This could be confusing.
Anyways... that's my 2 cents on the subject.

robowurmz
23 Feb 2007, 07:31
In the fiddler, if you choose 0 as the sprite, meaning no sprite, the weapon does nothing. You get the throw sound, but nothing else happens. Looks like you need a really tiny pixel sprite, with 50 frames and only 1 frame shows up the pixel!

franpa
23 Feb 2007, 11:44
Transfer Changes:
from 1 Client -(2MB, 15 secs)-> to Host -(6MB, 45 secs)-> to 3 Clients
It will take 15 seconds before the host gets the 2MB file and another 45 seconds to send it to the 3 other clients. Those 15 seconds can be axed if the host doesn't have to wait until it gets the entire file. File transfers could be changed so that the host sends whatever he has received of the file as he gets it instead of wasting time waiting to get the whole thing.
i read a thread here that it can be made so that people with routers wont need to port forward anymore... if this is true then we could have it changed so that everyone doesnt send to the host and the host shares it all around... we could have everyone send to everyone.... people with incorrectly setup firewalls normally cant join a game at all or wormnet.
It would be wise to save fanfares, soundbanks, and maps to the player's computer so that these do not need to be downloaded again in the future. Again, this could be an option.
yes, but a header or something would need to be placed somewhere in the files... or calculate a hash (or even crc or md5) for them so that if people use the same stuff with different file names wont need to send to you still.
im all for this if we have control over what gets shared.

AndrewTaylor
23 Feb 2007, 14:17
In the fiddler, if you choose 0 as the sprite, meaning no sprite, the weapon does nothing. You get the throw sound, but nothing else happens. Looks like you need a really tiny pixel sprite, with 50 frames and only 1 frame shows up the pixel!
Well, no, you could use a completely transparent sprite as long as you defined a collision mask for it. The masks aren't based on the graphics at all. I's guess that Sprite Zero (the WA graphics file, not the sugar free lemonade) has no collision mask, and passes through worms and landscape, but would explode perfectly well on a timer if it hadn't sunk.

Metal Alex
23 Feb 2007, 14:32
Well, no, you could use a completely transparent sprite as long as you defined a collision mask for it. The masks aren't based on the graphics at all. I's guess that Sprite Zero (the WA graphics file, not the sugar free lemonade) has no collision mask, and passes through worms and landscape, but would explode perfectly well on a timer if it hadn't sunk.
I don't think that's the case... as they described, nothing happens... but in your way, there should appear a timer there...

AndrewTaylor
23 Feb 2007, 14:52
This is true. But the point still stands, that if you're editing the sprites anyway you could almost certainly do it without having the pixel there.

SilPho
23 Feb 2007, 16:02
Props to the first person to try it.
So I'm thinking we have quite a few potential weapon ideas here.
One invisible weapon that bounces like a normal grenade, potentially quite a powerful weapon if possible to compensate for the difficulty in aiming it. Comparatively if someone drops it from a rope like dynamite it's going to be overpowered, just something to think about.
If you can remove collision masks, (sounds sketchy to me) then you could have a weapon on a timer that does not interact with anything, subsequently it becomes entirely about judging your arcs. This weapon would work wonders from inside a tight spot, you could even use it after being girder blocked.
The collisonless weapon could have an invisible variant, but I reckon that wouldn't be as good.
So, remove the graphic or the collision mask and you've got some interesting ideas.
Incidentally if you wanted an invisible weapon without a timer that did not explode on contact or pass through stuff, you could either explode it on impact or explode it whilst stationary like a Holy.
Now I have no idea how possible any of this is, nor am I suggesting we hold the upcoming v4 back until this is done, I'm just brainstorming here.

Metal Alex
23 Feb 2007, 16:27
Now, an I idea I have is an invisible weapon, going through stuff... and you have to press enter to detonate it... but... it's invisible! good luck there.

AndrewTaylor
23 Feb 2007, 16:45
If you can remove collision masks, (sounds sketchy to me)
Fiddler lets you choose what weapons can collide with already. Someone made a railgun that can shoot through the terrain. I don't see why a grenade couldn't do the same thing.

SilPho
23 Feb 2007, 16:47
Just reading my last post through,
"Incidentally if you wanted an invisible weapon without a timer that did not explode on contact or pass through stuff, you could either explode it on impact or explode it whilst stationary like a Holy."
What I meant to say was along the same lines of what Alex said, but I guess that means I'm not the only one with those thoughts.

Chip
24 Feb 2007, 19:16
Some more suggestion relating to the in game fiddler like thing:
Making new weapons is great but it would be better if the AI could use them as well. I doubt it'll ever be possible for the AI to beable to workout how to use any weapon so instead could the new weapons have a feature called "workslike" (followed by an existing weapon name) which allows the AI to use this new weapon in the same way it could use an existing weapon.
I.E:
I make a nail bomb and tag it with "works like - cluster bomb". (My nail bomb is identical to the cluster bomb or grenade but since the AI uses grenades all the time and I don't want them to use this nail bomb every turn, I'll then tell them its a cluster bomb, by this, they'll use it like a grenade but will use it as rare as a cluster bomb)
Basicaly the AI would treat this nail bomb as if it were a cluster bomb and by that will be able to throw it and time it perfect.
The "works like" feature will then allow the AI to use this weapon when it goes to use what ever weapon the works like feature is refering to (in this case, the cluster bomb) but since I don't want the AI to not use the original weapon, the "works like" feature must give the AI chance to use both weapons so perhaps it'll give the AI a 50/50 chance of selecting either weapon.
That way they can use both the old cluster bomb and my new custom weapon - Nail bomb.

Metal Alex
24 Feb 2007, 20:16
that
Now, that is a great idea. Anyways, There should be a "disable AI" option, too, so CPU teams won't use it. I mean, if weapons like the sheep or those which are currently not able with AI don't get it with the same patch, of course :p

kikumbob
25 Feb 2007, 14:06
For one heart-stopping moment I thought the Make-A-Weapon thread had been resurrected.

Chip
28 Feb 2007, 20:33
AAAAARRRGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I did reply but it didn't except and lost the post but I can't be botherd to re-type it out as I spent over 10 minutes on it.

Melon
4 Mar 2007, 14:37
I searched the Beta Readme file before posting this, and couldn't find anything about it, so I'll assume it still happens. (Apolagies if it has been fixed).
Basically, there is always a probability that an empty crate can fall and give a Worm Select weapon. I also noticed using Etho's Scheme Eddy that you can increase the crate probability up to 12, rather than to 5 using the in-game scheme editor. However, if you do increase the crate probabilities higher than 5, the probability of a Select Worm appearing keeps decreasing. Therefore, if you double each weapon's crate appearing chance, you can drastically reduce the odds of a Select Worm falling.
As an example, say you have 5 weapons that will appear in crates, and each is set to a value of 5. Then there is a 2% chance that a select worm will fall. But if you increase these values to 12, the n there is only a 0.8% chance of a Worm Select appearing.
So what I'm saying is that if a fix for the worm select hasn't already been found, it may be worth changing the values of the in-game scheme editor to higher numbers so that the odds are drastically reduced as some sort of temporary work-around. At least until schemes are given a complete overhaul.
So maybe instead of values 0,1,2,3,4,5 you could have 0,8,9,10,11,12. The result will be the same, but with less chance of Worm Select appearing. There may be other values that give better results, but I've yet to check them out.
What do you think? It's entirely possible that Scheme Eddy only says this for the benefit of WWP users if it has been fixed already.

Chip
4 Mar 2007, 15:03
I don't mind getting select worm in a crate, its handy.
I just don't like getting skip go or surender in them crates.

AndrewTaylor
4 Mar 2007, 15:10
I don't mind getting select worm in a crate, its handy.
Yeah, but it can mess up some schemes and it can't be turned off. The crate routine is a bit strange like that. It's fine for general play but the community is inventing ever more precise and well-defined play styles now, and really we could use something a bit more robust.
You should have the option of disabling Worm Select in crates.

Etho
4 Mar 2007, 22:51
You should have the option of disabling Worm Select in crates.
This is already possible using external scheme editors, such as SchemeEddy. Setting a weapon delay causes that weapon not to appear in weapon crates until the delay has expired. By setting a 255 turn delay for the Select Worm, you are in effect, removing that weapon from the scheme.

AndrewTaylor
5 Mar 2007, 11:04
As I understand it, and I've not really tried this so I may be wrong, but I'm going by what Deadcode has said about the code, the weapon crates are worked out in a strange way that can sometimes (depending on what options you've chosen) fail to select a weapon at all. At these times "Select Worm" is put in the crate. I don't see how a delay could directly change that. (One advantage of this method being that it doesn't crash if you set everything to zero.)
Even if it can, it'd be nice to be able to specify the crate probabilities more reliably than we can now.

Lex
5 Mar 2007, 11:37
Even with the 255-turn Select Worm delay, there's still the chance of getting a useless crate.

Chip
5 Mar 2007, 11:58
Hey I know, when a useless crate drops in, why not have that become a booby trapped crate? :D

franpa
5 Mar 2007, 13:31
Hey I know, when a useless crate drops in, why not have that become a booby trapped crate? :D
yesss, i miss random booby trap crates... one of the things that was what made worms 2 annoying yet less boring.
there was a thread here somewhere that explained why the worm select crates appeared and it also explained how to avoid it... but i cant find it.

kikumbob
5 Mar 2007, 17:55
Etho also explains that problem in lush detail in the readme accompanying his latest version of SchemeEddy.

pisto
15 Mar 2007, 16:43
:eek: when will it be released?:eek:
just joking, i know you hate this question.
but, can we know how much the work is done (%)?

ohms
15 Mar 2007, 17:37
Hey I know, when a useless crate drops in, why not have that become a booby trapped crate? :D
booby trapped crates were hilarious! nervously edging your worm toward a crate when you were low on health, but really need a big a$$ weapon to win. great stuff!

bonz
15 Mar 2007, 18:57
but, can we know how much the work is done (%)?
0.1337%
booby trapped crates were hilarious! nervously edging your worm toward a crate when you were low on health, but really need a big a$$ weapon to win. great stuff!
I fully agree.

pisto
15 Mar 2007, 20:53
why can't u give a right percentage?? it's not like saying when you will release it, nobody can calculate the date when it's due, it's only curiosity...

bonz
15 Mar 2007, 23:26
why can't u give a right percentage??
Noone knows a percentage because there is no absolute value you could compare it too.
This isn't like painting a wall or counting the cards in a deck. :rolleyes:

franpa
16 Mar 2007, 01:57
how is 0.1337% not a right percentage? how do YOU know that's wrong?

AndrewTaylor
16 Mar 2007, 10:49
why can't u give a right percentage?? it's not like saying when you will release it, nobody can calculate the date when it's due, it's only curiosity...
Well, I don't think anyone knows what the endpoint is, so how can they be expected to tell you how near to it they are? It's the Worms Armageddon 4.0 Halting Problem (http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2007/03/04/the-all-purpose-halting-problem/).

pisto
16 Mar 2007, 19:05
how is 0.1337% not a right percentage? how do YOU know that's wrong?
1 only an unsane person can open a thread called "the upcoming update" if the work is only 0.1337%.
2 1337=l33t...

kikumbob
16 Mar 2007, 19:25
how is 0.1337% not a right percentage? how do YOU know that's wrong? Firstly, I really hope you realised that 0.1337% was pretty much a wholesome joke. Secondly, I was about to give you an answer of infinite% complete because they have an infinite amount of work to do on WA. However I couldn't work out how to get an infinite symbol up and spent a good part of half an hour fruitlessly trying to find out.
There is no such thing as a perfect bug-free game; computers are too complicated for that sort of thing

CyberShadow
16 Mar 2007, 19:37
And thirdly, this thread is about the 3.6.27.x version, and not 4.0.
If you're wondering what's keeping it, I'm terribly busy with personal projects at the moment, and Deadcode is nowhere to be seen for almost two weeks now.

Gnork
16 Mar 2007, 22:33
*Sight... is this thread EVER gonna be closed? Like the otherone which is even sticky and decades old and should also be closed? IF the new update comes out, there should be 1 post on this forum called that way. Not serveral misleading topic names with a zillion replies on it :eek: This thread belongs in a chitchat archive map somewhere hidden, not even close to a place where noobs would think they would actually get some information about anything, my 2 cents on this... Forum admin: do your job properly...
*and please don't shoot me, a banana bomb will do just fine :rolleyes:

CyberShadow
16 Mar 2007, 22:41
The information you are looking for is in the first post of this thread. The rest of this thread discusses that first post and other related things. This is the purpose of forums - discussion. If what you want is just announcements, then simply read only the first posts of new sticky threads - but you won't get a lot of traffic this way...misleading topic namesHow exactly is "upcoming" misleading? Or are you confusing the upcoming, 3.6.27.x update with the 4.0 version, which is still far into the future?

franpa
17 Mar 2007, 02:53
1 only an unsane person can open a thread called "the upcoming update" if the work is only 0.1337%.
how does a person know that it is 0.1337% complete if they don't open and read the thread explaining how much is done o_O?

yakuza
17 Mar 2007, 10:54
So was this thread to keep us busy for a year or what

pisto
17 Mar 2007, 11:36
i was asking about THIS update, not the 4.0. and then, i repeat, i dont ask WHEN will it be released (i know you cant because you work on this patch in the free time blablabla...), but how much the work is done. it's different, and it doesnt force you to hurry for a date to dont be blamed. if you dont want to say it, ok, u dont have even to say why you dont reply me.

franpa
17 Mar 2007, 12:33
people have been told many times how much has been done and only has some people guessed how close it is to completion.

kikumbob
17 Mar 2007, 13:49
So was this thread to keep us busy for a year or what They didn't actually want to announce a new update early. Circulating rumours forced them to. But it was, and you can't blame the uncomfortable long wait on them.

Melon
17 Mar 2007, 13:54
I'm pretty sure I read on here somewhere from a while ago about why they don't give us any information on how far they have progressed and why they don't have an official ToDo list.
I think it was because having such things only adds to the pressure on them to complete it. "A week ago you said it was 90% done, so why isn't it out yet???" is the sort of thing they are trying to avoid. I suppose if we push them to complete it and they feel like they HAVE to work on it, it won't be fun for them any more, and they won't want to keep making it.
I'll see if I can find the thread I read and link to it.

bonz
17 Mar 2007, 14:07
i dont ask WHEN will it be released (i know you cant because you work on this patch in the free time blablabla...), but how much the work is done.
Read my previous post (http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=567310&postcount=473) again.
It seems to me that you don't understand the concept of percentages.
Noone knows what the 100% is...

[UFP]Ghost
17 Mar 2007, 16:31
yes but he means until the realse the next patch as in, are they planning to add more in, just fix bugs, like what is thier goal for this next beta patch and how much of it has been completed. now the goal may change but as of now. what is it?

yakuza
17 Mar 2007, 16:34
They didn't actually want to announce a new update early. Circulating rumours forced them to. But it was, and you can't blame the uncomfortable long wait on them.
Everyone knew.

Metal Alex
17 Mar 2007, 18:36
Everybody, do not worry.
When the patch is released, it'll be 100% done. Am I accurate enough?

bonz
17 Mar 2007, 18:55
When the patch is released, it'll be 100% done. Am I accurate enough?
The first post that made sense.

franpa
18 Mar 2007, 00:59
I'm pretty sure I read on here somewhere from a while ago about why they don't give us any information on how far they have progressed and why they don't have an official ToDo list.
I think it was because having such things only adds to the pressure on them to complete it. "A week ago you said it was 90% done, so why isn't it out yet???" is the sort of thing they are trying to avoid. I suppose if we push them to complete it and they feel like they HAVE to work on it, it won't be fun for them any more, and they won't want to keep making it.
I'll see if I can find the thread I read and link to it.
as far as im concerned they have changed a great deal of the game code wise which is why it is taking age to complete, they are changing the vast majority of the code for the better, but at the moment are keeping the current GUI because it is currently easier to do that, unless you want to wait another year for them to implement stuff based on the revised code.

Lex
20 Mar 2007, 18:15
Like CyberShadow said, he's very busy with personal projects (to survive!) at the moment and Deadcode has been unheard from for more than 2 weeks now. I, personally, am eagerly awaiting his arrival. The beta release is top priority. Believe.

adamantium
22 Mar 2007, 05:28
Is the fiddler going to be in 3.6.27.x or do we need to wait longer for it?
And is the editor going to be an external scheme editor, or does it need to be added to the GUI? (I'm guessing external is more likely, and that would be fine by me)

CyberShadow
22 Mar 2007, 05:38
No Fiddler support for the next beta, yet.
That is, unless Deadcode has been working on W:A while being away the last few weeks, and he decided to add Fiddler support without telling us.

Metal Alex
22 Mar 2007, 19:17
That is, unless Deadcode has been working on W:A while being away the last few weeks, and he decided to add Fiddler support without telling us.
So it can still be possible...
What?

franpa
23 Mar 2007, 05:18
Is the fiddler going to be in 3.6.27.x or do we need to wait longer for it?
And is the editor going to be an external scheme editor, or does it need to be added to the GUI? (I'm guessing external is more likely, and that would be fine by me)
have you not read anything? the GUI is being remade... WHY? because it needs to be done to allow for the vast # of things people want added/changed.

adamantium
23 Mar 2007, 23:15
have you not read anything? the GUI is being remade... WHY? because it needs to be done to allow for the vast # of things people want added/changed.
I know the GUI is being changed, but it's not going to have everything in it, I'm sure. Some things will have to be external in the form of reg edits, or whatever. Ain't that right, Cyber?
Besides, we still don't know how soon the new GUI will be implemented. In 3.5.27.X or will it come later?

franpa
23 Mar 2007, 23:45
i doubt it, if the change thats planned is as big as what it seems then they could literally do anything they want with the gui and add anything and/or everything to it....
but enough where arguing something that clearly neither of us can be certain of.

CyberShadow
24 Mar 2007, 02:59
Franpa's right here. The whole point of 4.0 is so we could finally do everything we wanted to do - hence a complete redesign of almost everything is needed.

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