3d or 2d? [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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pirvix
15 May 2008, 14:59
I thought i'd start a thread about what you would like the next worms game to be? 3d or 2d
I myself would prefer a 2d game with gorgeous graphics like worms XBLA just on more platforms.

jsgnext
17 May 2008, 03:54
OMG not this discution again =/

MtlAngelus
17 May 2008, 06:51
I think 1d is better, aiming is a LOT easier.

quakerworm
17 May 2008, 08:27
fractional dimensions is where it is at.

Shadowmoon
17 May 2008, 08:35
I thought i'd start a thread about what you would like the next worms game to be? 3d or 2d
I myself would prefer a 2d game with gorgeous graphics like worms XBLA just on more platforms.
We've already had a lot of these threads.
Anyway, i prefer 3D more, and i would like the next worms game to be 3D. 2D is call too, but 3D does it for me.
Also because we've had enough 2D games and i think they should return to 3D at some point soon.

pirvix
17 May 2008, 09:17
oh, I'm sorry if there are more threads like this. I searchhed if there was any before I created this thread and didn't find any.:confused:
Close this thread then if it's too much

Shadowmoon
17 May 2008, 10:30
oh, I'm sorry if there are more threads like this. I searchhed if there was any before I created this thread and didn't find any.:confused:
Close this thread then if it's too much
Its not worth this thread been closed, also we get these almost every 3 months! the latest one was created last month, if i can remember.

super_frea
17 May 2008, 13:00
I think they should mix 2-D and 3-D to create 2.5-D in order to keep everyone happy.
(except Plasma he's never happy)

pieman280
18 May 2008, 01:38
Its not worth this thread been closed
Actually it might be worth it. if just one person says something about a version that another guy disagrees with we could have ourselves another fire fight. however, things seem calm so far.:)
anyways, I vote 3D! 3D is how I grew up around worms.

Plasma
18 May 2008, 01:47
(except Plasma he's never happy)
17 dimensions or I'm leaving! :mad:

Kelster23
18 May 2008, 05:53
I think they should mix 2-D and 3-D to create 2.5-D in order to keep everyone happy.
(except Plasma he's never happy)
That's what I think too.
Make a option for 2.5D :mad:

Shadowmoon
18 May 2008, 09:07
Actually it might be worth it. if just one person says something about a version that another guy disagrees with we could have ourselves another fire fight. however, things seem calm so far.:)
anyways, I vote 3D! 3D is how I grew up around worms.
I didn't mean it like that. Privix said....
oh, I'm sorry if there are more threads like this. I searchhed if there was any before I created this thread and didn't find any.
Close this thread then if it's too much
So i told him it wasn't worth it as many other people have created the same thread over and over again and as far as i remember few were closed because of a flame war.

_Kilburn
18 May 2008, 10:47
If you want the next Worms to be 2D, then you are selfish, never happy whiners. Think of it. WA 4.0 will be released. I don't know when, but it will be released. So if Team17 decides to do another 2D Worms, there will be only 2 possible solutions:
- The game is not better than WA, therefore it fails.
- The game is better than WA, and there you go, all those years spent by CyberShadow and Deadcode for improving WA completely wasted.
So, yeah, definitely 3D for me. WA is already awesome, I don't need better, really. Improve 3D while there is so much to improve.

jsgnext
24 May 2008, 19:29
So, yeah, definitely 3D for me. WA is already awesome, I don't need better, really. Improve 3D while there is so much to improve.
I think that too...WA is the definitive 2D worms game...but worms 4 is good
but 3D worms games can be better.

kikumbob
26 May 2008, 17:56
Team17 has milked every last pleasurable drop out of the worms franchise possible. Its nipples are raw. Give it a rest.

xX1x-ray1X
27 May 2008, 00:00
i just got to say, worms in 3d would be the best thing ever!!!

thomasp
27 May 2008, 00:22
i ustut got to say, worms in 3d would be the best thing ever!!!
Errr, you are aware Team17 have released three Worms games in 3D? Worms 3D, Worms Forts and Worms 4:Mayhem

super_frea
27 May 2008, 01:39
Team17 has milked every last pleasurable drop out of the worms franchise possible. Its nipples are raw. Give it a rest.
*seconded*
I think Superfrog is the way to go.

CJH
27 May 2008, 13:01
If T17 Make another game, then I think they could make a good 3D for PC.
However, nothing looks too likely from the pipeline, so we'll have to wait and see.

xX1x-ray1X
27 May 2008, 21:52
ok thomasp, sorry for the ignorance there, i just didnt know : p

yakuza
27 May 2008, 22:30
WA is not the definite 2D game. It's just been out for 10 years and we're more than used to it. Add to the fact that all the 2D games after it are not up to its standard then it might give the illusion WA can't be improved. But it can, CS and DC prove this every year. So Team17 could make a better 2D games. However I tend to agree it wouldn't be the best time to do so.

thomasp
27 May 2008, 22:59
ok thomasp, sorry for the ignorance there, i just didnt know : p
See http://www.worms3d.com , http://www.wormsforts.com and http://www.wormsmayhem.com for more information about the three games, and PC demos.

jsgnext
28 May 2008, 02:08
Add to the fact that all the 2D games after it are not up to its standard then it might give the illusion WA can't be improved. But it can, CS and DC prove this every year. So Team17 could make a better 2D games. However I tend to agree it wouldn't be the best time to do so.
WA can be improved,yes(for example adding fort tipe guns)...but 3D worms games have tons of stuff to improve.

yakuza
28 May 2008, 08:12
WA can be improved,yes(for example adding fort tipe guns)...but 3D worms games have tons of stuff to improve.
What exactly are you trying to say here?

Shadowmoon
28 May 2008, 09:23
They've already made a great 2D worms game. Now its time for them to create a great 3D worms game.

CJH
28 May 2008, 10:48
They've already made a great 2D worms game. Now its time for them to create a great 3D worms game.
I agree, They have not ventured into 3D after the first three 3D games. I think that Worms 3D was the best 3D one. I don't understand why they have stayed away from the 3D worms when they could make a realy good one.

yakuza
28 May 2008, 11:17
I agree, They have not ventured into 3D after the first three 3D games. I think that Worms 3D was the best 3D one. I don't understand why they have stayed away from the 3D worms when they could make a realy good one.
I could tell you why they have not ventured into the 3D, but I'd be assuming that it takes more money to develop and it's not half as good as 2D.

_Kilburn
28 May 2008, 11:38
Because, as I previously said, the 3D concept isn't completely developed yet. There are so many possibilities that have not been exploited. The gameplay is completely different from 2D, either you like it, either you don't. You don't like it as much as the 2D concept, and it's your personal opinion. I personally think that 3D can become almost as great as 2D if they developed it as much as they developed Worms Armageddon.
Meh, 1 console to go. They haven't done any Worms for the PS3 yet, maybe they will do one or two, maybe they will do WASO2, let them finish their Leisure Suit Larry, and hopefully they will return to Worms on the PC. I don't really care if it's 3D or 2D or 2.5D or 4D or whatever. Though 2D would either ruin WA if it's better, or be a complete failure if it isn't.

yakuza
28 May 2008, 12:10
Because, as I previously said, the 3D concept isn't completely developed yet. There are so many possibilities that have not been exploited. The gameplay is completely different from 2D, either you like it, either you don't. You don't like it as much as the 2D concept, and it's your personal opinion. I personally think that 3D can become almost as great as 2D if they developed it as much as they developed Worms Armageddon.
Meh, 1 console to go. They haven't done any Worms for the PS3 yet, maybe they will do one or two, maybe they will do WASO2, let them finish their Leisure Suit Larry, and hopefully they will return to Worms on the PC. I don't really care if it's 3D or 2D or 2.5D or 4D or whatever. Though 2D would either ruin WA if it's better, or be a complete failure if it isn't.
I don't think the PS3 market would benefit from a Worms game, but that's just a first glance opinion, studies might prove otherwise.
Also, WA hasn't been as developed as much as you claim by team17. In fact, the original product was better than it was later (before the Betas) as it originally had Ranks, Logins, Leagues, awards recognized by Team17 in their website etc...
WA isn't the most popular game because it's the more developed, it's because it's basically the best game so far, or so thinks the market. The Betas are only enchancing this and making it even better and even more popular but the base is already built, it was already built with Worms2 basically.
You're right though, the 3D series can do with loads of improvement, but so can the 2D games. Thinking that they're so popular because they're so perfect or because there's less room for improvement is wrong.

Muzer
28 May 2008, 13:02
ou're right though, the 3D series can do with loads of improvement, but so can the 2D games. Thinking that they're so popular because they're so perfect or because there's less room for improvement is wrong.
For once, I'm going with you yakuza. You have hit the nail right on the head there.

_Kilburn
28 May 2008, 13:23
I agree as well. There are many improvements that can be done, but aren't CyberShadow and Deadcode here for that? As far as I know, WA 4.0 is coming, slowly, but it's coming. So what's the point of asking Team17 for a new 2D game for the PC when WA is still living and improving? Let Team17 improve 3D on their side, and CyberShadow and Deadcode improve 2D on the other side.
Unless you mean really large improvements such as a new game engine, but I really don't see any flaw in this one. It's only a matter of gameplay.

Xinos
28 May 2008, 23:16
I think there is alot of potential in 3D worms. But right now something is missing.. I think perhaps the 3D games need to be real time and on bigger maps to work. I know real-time worms is a sensitive subject, but it should be considered and tested, at least with 3D, I really don't see it working on in 2D.
If the maps are large, there will be plenty of hiding spots and good places to shoot from, and having it in real time will give the game a new pace that I think is needed given the extra third dimension.
Worms as it is now has been made and remade so many times, something new has to be added to gameplay in order for the IP to survive other than countless Xbox Arcade/portable type games. And I think T17 is sick of it.

Plasma
28 May 2008, 23:29
I think there is alot of potential in 3D worms. But right now something is missing.. I think perhaps the 3D games need to be real time and on bigger maps to work. I know real-time worms is a sensitive subject, but it should be considered and tested, at least with 3D, I really don't see it working on in 2D.
If the maps are large, there will be plenty of hiding spots and good places to shoot from, and having it in real time will give the game a new pace that I think is needed given the extra third dimension.
Play Worms4.
While in a match, think what it'd be like if you had unlimited turns but your opponent moved at the same time as you.
Hopefully, you'll have learned better from that than to bring up real-time worms again!
Worms as it is now has been made and remade so many times, something new has to be added to gameplay in order for the IP to survive other than countless Xbox Arcade/portable type games. And I think T17 is sick of it.
They used the motion controls in W:ASO. It didn't help much.

Shadowmoon
29 May 2008, 08:28
It didn't help much, coz the game didn't have much content.

CJH
29 May 2008, 14:22
I think there is alot of potential in 3D worms. But right now something is missing.. I think perhaps the 3D games need to be real time and on bigger maps to work. I know real-time worms is a sensitive subject, but it should be considered and tested, at least with 3D, I really don't see it working on in 2D.
If the maps are large, there will be plenty of hiding spots and good places to shoot from, and having it in real time will give the game a new pace that I think is needed given the extra third dimension.
Worms as it is now has been made and remade so many times, something new has to be added to gameplay in order for the IP to survive other than countless Xbox Arcade/portable type games. And I think T17 is sick of it.
The missing link eh? Heres what I would like in a new 3D Worms game:
1: Only Worms[?]: Worms is nothing if they just put Donkeys in and call it "Donkeys". Everyone in Worms is a Worm, Okay?
2: Classic feel: Worms is a British game, made by British people. Except when released in other countries, Worms should have the feel that it is British. Therefore, a classic feel should be installed. In my opinion, they did this satifactory with Worms 3D with the england theme, But I believe that england is more than just a grey sky and green grass.
3: Some new stuff: If T17 kept releasing the same game with a different title, things would get boring. However, I wouldn't go too strongly with the Worms forts under seige Idea, where you can only fire weapons from buildings, the worms are extremely hard to control, and you can hop through the realy thin trees. also, there is a need to keep it classic, with the same style of game that people are used to, but maybe a proper map creator or Hat bender, or something. I'm sure that somone can come up with something revoloutionary.
4: Release it on the PC!!!: X-box, Playstation, WII, I don't realy care. But for the concrete donkeys sake, please release it on the PC!
5: Add more cookies and easter eggs: Once someone has done all the missions, unlocked all the landscapes, all the development videos, and all the rest, there has to be something realy big and challenging for them to do, so a realy challenging easter egg that may be there or false, cryptic clues, and holes in the ground that may be misleading or treasureful, is far more fun than Just realising theres nothing else and wondering off. also, I like the small easter eggs on some games where there are special holiday things, like a christmas tree map, or something. I don't realy care how you do any of this, just do it!
6: Moving objects on the landscape: [apart from worms and weapons] Yeah, I'm talking big here, I'm talking Worms driving cars, planes taxi bonus missions, even trampolines, being crushed by a bowling ball, even being able to play 2D Worms in a Bonus mission on an oversized computer! yeah, I'm talking invading some dudes house, blasting his head off with a bazooka, then his mother comes in, and with screams!!! IM TALKING UL-TIM-ATE HERE PEOPLE!!! MEG-A!!!!!:D
7: Employ me as manager of T17! [Na, you don't realy have to do that, but it would be nice...]
P.S.: When a worm gets shot, he seems about the same as the day he was spawned. I WANT DAMAGE!!! [Of course you don't have to do blood, but a plaster would be good.]
EDIT: Do I get a medal now? My fingers ache.

jsgnext
29 May 2008, 20:20
What exactly are you trying to say here?
They've already made a great 2D worms game. Now its time for them to create a great 3D worms game.
something like that

yakuza
29 May 2008, 20:22
something like that
I can guarantee you Team17 don't work based on balance.
Should Ford start building motobikes because they have enough good cars already?

_Kilburn
29 May 2008, 23:01
Should Ford start building motobikes because they have enough good cars already?
But Team17 already started making 3D games, so it's kinda different. Again, since CyberShadow and Deadcode keep improving WA, I don't see why Team17 should care about 2D for the PC, as long as the development for WA doesn't die.

CJH
3 Jun 2008, 17:05
Again, since CyberShadow and Deadcode keep improving WA, I don't see why Team17 should care about 2D for the PC, as long as the development for WA doesn't die.
Because they are bored and have nothing better to do, and are scared of critisism that if they release a new 3D game the 2D fans will feel abandoned.
But alterntitively, a new 2D game would make the 3D fans disapointed...

jsgnext
4 Jun 2008, 17:28
The missing link eh? Heres what I would like in a new 3D Worms game:
1: Only Worms[?]: Worms is nothing if they just put Donkeys in and call it "Donkeys". Everyone in Worms is a Worm, Okay?.....
P.S.: When a worm gets shot, he seems about the same as the day he was spawned. I WANT DAMAGE!!! [Of course you don't have to do blood, but a plaster would be good.]
Im not agree with the only worms part of ur post....the donkey and the sheep are in the game from the beggining of the series and they add humor to the game(i mean a donkey which falls from the sky,its ridiculus), and many fans could be disappointed if TEAM17 removes that weapons(included me).

CJH
4 Jun 2008, 17:43
Im not agree with the only worms part of ur post....the donkey and the sheep are in the game from the beggining of the series and they add humor to the game(i mean a donkey which falls from the sky,its ridiculus), and many fans could be disappointed if TEAM17 removes that weapons(included me).
Well, we can have concrete donkeys and sheep, but what i'm saying is that Team17 shouldn't make donkeys the main characters in Worms. Also, they shouldn't make a game with a different name and different characters, basicly the same gameplay style, and just call it "Donkeys". That would be foolish.

yakuza
4 Jun 2008, 18:29
Going by what's played on WormNet. I'd say 1 out of 15 games hosted has the donkey.
We can do without it. Trust me.

CJH
4 Jun 2008, 19:30
Going by what's played on WormNet. I'd say 1 out of 15 games hosted has the donkey.
We can do without it. Trust me.
How can we ever trust you?

_Kilburn
4 Jun 2008, 19:56
I do. :p The concrete donkey is an easy point-click-kill weapon, it can kill you wherever you are, and isn't particularly fun to play with. You can do without it.
Though Worms 4 Mayhem made it a little more balanced by giving it a (very) limited life time, making it unable to reach well covered worms.
Also, as far as I know, the donkey appeared only since Worms 2, it wasn't there before.

Muzer
4 Jun 2008, 20:02
Worms: Director's Cut. Squirminator2k would be turning in his grave if he were dead :p

Shadowmoon
4 Jun 2008, 20:38
How can we ever trust you?
The Donkey should be removed, imo. Its way too powerfull.

_Kilburn
4 Jun 2008, 20:54
Powerful is not a problem. It's how you use it. The Donkey is pretty boring because all you do is point, click, and watch your victim die. The Banana Bomb is really powerful, yet it's more fun to use because it's thrown like a grenade.

super_frea
5 Jun 2008, 14:04
I will cry if they remove the Concrete Donkey.
And we don't want that now do we?

CJH
5 Jun 2008, 16:04
I will cry if they remove the Concrete Donkey.
And we don't want that now do we?
Well... Making other people upset makes me feel better!:)
But getting rid of weapons is not the way to go, maybe adding weapons is so... I kinda want the Uzi back!:D

jsgnext
8 Jun 2008, 23:42
The Donkey should be removed, imo. Its way too powerfull.
have u ever heard "a donkey ,a donkey,my kingdom for a donkey"??....the donkey wasnt made to be a easy weapon to get.....its like armageddon or sheep strike(i wonder why TEAM17 abandoned that weaps)

Shadowmoon
9 Jun 2008, 16:05
have u ever heard "a donkey ,a donkey,my kingdom for a donkey"??....the donkey wasnt made to be a easy weapon to get.....its like armageddon or sheep strike(i wonder why TEAM17 abandoned that weaps)
Yes i have, but i think it is too powerfull. We don't need super powerfull weapons.
Imo, the armageddon is pointless, because it sends meteorites everywhere, and your team could be killed too.

Muzer
10 Jun 2008, 17:21
"a donkey ,a donkey,my kingdom for a donkey"
That is based on Shakespere's "A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!", in this case it means something like "I lost my whole kingdom because of some stupid horse", not that he would like to trade his kingdom for a horse. This probably applies in the Worms version with the donkey as well, since a "kingdom" (in Worms) can easily be wiped out with a donkey.

KRD
13 Jun 2008, 13:13
At the battle of Bosworth Field, Lord Stanley (who is also Richmond's step-father) and his followers desert Richard's side, whereupon Richard calls for the execution of George Stanley, Lord Stanley's son. This does not happen, as the battle is in full swing, and Richard is left at a disadvantage. Richard is soon unhorsed on the field at the climax of the battle, and utters the often-quoted line, A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse! Richmond kills Richard in the final duel. Subsequently, Richmond succeeds to the throne as Henry VII, and marries Elizabeth from the House of York, effectively ending the War of the Roses.
Spoiler warning.

Plasma
14 Jun 2008, 00:12
It could also be related to using the other meaning of the "my kingdom for a horse" line, that is when you would be willing to trade your entire kingdom for just a horse.

Muzer
14 Jun 2008, 09:18
Yeah, but that's not what Shakespere meant. And we're trying to prove this guy wrong, remember?

super_frea
14 Jun 2008, 12:35
Imo, the armageddon is pointless, because it sends meteorites everywhere, and your team could be killed too.
It's not pointless it's awesome :cool:

[UFP]Ghost
16 Jun 2008, 03:55
Yes i have, but i think it is too powerfull. We don't need super powerfull weapons.
Imo, the armageddon is pointless, because it sends meteorites everywhere, and your team could be killed too.
Sometimes it's worth that chance.

Esper
16 Jun 2008, 05:14
2D-2D-2D Worms is worms!

CJH
16 Jun 2008, 18:17
2D-2D-2D Worms is worms!
3D-3D Get with the times!

[UFP]Ghost
21 Jun 2008, 15:40
3D-3D Get with the times!
That is the worst reason I've ever heard for 3D gaming. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it's better and should be used.

CJH
23 Jun 2008, 20:42
2D-2D-2D Worms is worms!
And this is a better reason?:-/
Your right. I was just trying to copy this guys style to show how silly it sounds when I say something similar.

K2D
28 Jun 2008, 10:15
My name speaks for itself. I've been along since the early days.

raffie
28 Jun 2008, 11:14
My name speaks for itself. I've been along since the early days.
And then u got banned ;)

Esper
4 Jul 2008, 03:11
Ghost;657130']That is the worst reason I've ever heard for 3D gaming. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it's better and should be used.
+1 Thank you...

jsgnext
5 Jul 2008, 03:55
Yeah, but that's not what Shakespere meant. And we're trying to prove this guy wrong, remember?
sorry about my ignorance but....the luck is a element of the game ,if u dont like the donkey just dont put it in your schemme....I dont think the worms game could be better removing weapons,i think the opposite.
EAch weapon adds another possibility to the game....each weapon adds more chances to win or loose....each weapon adds more styles to the game(think about shoopa(rope),Bng(bazzoka and granade),holy war(hg and girder)
,etc)
more weapons => more choices => more possibilities => more strategies

Goodpoizon
15 Jul 2008, 02:10
I think that 2D is the ONLY way to go with all of the worms games. The 3D games realy disappointed me. I dont care realy if the enviroment is 2d with a 3d look but 3D just hasnt felt comfortable.

CJH
15 Jul 2008, 19:27
I think that 2D is the ONLY way to go with all of the worms games. The 3D games realy disappointed me. I dont care realy if the enviroment is 2d with a 3d look but 3D just hasnt felt comfortable.
Have you even held a sword before? :-/
Allow me to explain: 3D Is easier for our tiny minds to understand because we live in a 3D world. It is much harder to aim weapons properly in 3D Worms, (and therefore, more of a challenge.) because there are more variables, (In some ways it is easier because there are more ways around an object.) Such as Wind, Landmass, Trajectory, and also there is a 1st person view point. in 2D, A first person view-point would be a line, representing something next to you. Do you see my point? :confused: No? :( Go play Worms 4 or something. :mad:

super_frea
15 Jul 2008, 19:30
That's not what he was saying. He was saying he prefers the gameplay of the 2-D games and that the 3-D games don't feel the same.

CJH
15 Jul 2008, 19:34
That's not what he was saying. He was saying he prefers the gameplay of the 2-D games and that the 3-D games don't feel the same.
And how is that a just reason? :confused:

super_frea
15 Jul 2008, 19:36
Sorry?
It's not reason. It's an opinion, and I for one agree with him.

Shadowmoon
15 Jul 2008, 19:38
Sorry CJH but your point is wrong.
The reason more people like 2D is because they are hard-core worms fans, and they grew up with the 2D series.
2D is much easier, imho.

CJH
15 Jul 2008, 19:39
Another player joins the opposing team.:(
Oh Dear. :(
There are still possibilities for 3D Worms to be made better, right?
Right?:(
The reason for all this may lie with the fact that Worms 3D Was the first Worms game I bought.

Shadowmoon
15 Jul 2008, 19:41
Actually i like 3D better. Just telling why most people don't like 3D......

super_frea
15 Jul 2008, 19:45
It seems to me that series that start in 2D tend not to translate well into 3D, the only exception to that I've found being Mario. If the game starts in 2D then developers seem to think that adding another dimension to the proceedings will the make the game better. Sure this allows for a lot more variety, but essentially all they've really done with the 3D games is added another dimension meaning everything that they almost perfected in 2D they have pretty much had to start again with 3D. They may get it right some day, but I'm just not feeling it at the moment. Also there's the problem that nobody really wants to license 2D games anymore.
Edit: And don't get me wrong I don't dislike the 3D games. They just don't have the charm and playability of the 2D ones.

Shadowmoon
15 Jul 2008, 19:50
imo, Rayman and Mario were successfull when it came to moving to 3D.
imo, the worms 3D games are good, though, but not successful.

super_frea
15 Jul 2008, 19:51
That's a good example actually. The only Rayman game I liked was the first one.

[UFP]Ghost
15 Jul 2008, 20:45
I agree with the worms in 2D.
super_frea is right. Worms was made for 2D and it was perfected for 2D. I was exited when I heard of 3D worms however in my opinion is was a terrible thing to do when played out. I love my 3D games but they were made for 3D. some games work in both dimensions especially games like Mario but worms doesn't work just stuffing it in a 3D world. The only way I'd see it working is if they started a new worms game from scratch including ideas and utilities and came up with a game tailored to 3D with customizability and enough variation to match WA.
The current worms aren't meant for the 3D world.

yakuza
16 Jul 2008, 08:31
2D is much easier, imho.
Here's a quick estimation:
It would take you 2 years to be be a succesful roper and roperacer. And you'd still be light years from the good ropers around.
It would take you an extra year to be a succesful elite player.
It would take you one more year to hold yourself in BnG.
And one more to learn the remaining schemes.
That's 6 years to become an expert WA player, and that's being optimistic. Would you claim the learning curve in the 3D series is any close to that? Because I'd laugh if you do.

KRD
16 Jul 2008, 11:45
Have you even held a sword before? :-/
Not a very sound argument either. You would have a point if in your hypothetical 3D Worms game, swinging swords was done with a motion of your arms, throwing grenades with a swift crickety bowl. It's not.
Aiming and movement in 2D Worms games isn't better because it's easier or harder, it's better because it's faaaar more perspicuous. No nonsense with the camera angles from the third person view, no extremely limited field of vision in first person mode; it's just clear, easy to get used to but insanely hard to become the best on WormNet at. In other words, perfect. :p

CJH
16 Jul 2008, 17:28
Not a very sound argument either. You would have a point if in your hypothetical 3D Worms game, swinging swords was done with a motion of your arms, throwing grenades with a swift crickety bowl. It's not.
Aiming and movement in 2D Worms games isn't better because it's easier or harder, it's better because it's faaaar more perspicuous. No nonsense with the camera angles from the third person view, no extremely limited field of vision in first person mode; it's just clear, easy to get used to but insanely hard to become the best on WormNet at. In other words, perfect. :p
I will never surrender! :mad: I will stand by my beliefs, even if no-one else will! I'll fight to the end, and guess what? I'LL WIN!!!:D (Pychotic banter)
I think it has come to a deadlock. How can 2D be better than 3D, 3D better than 2D, etc... I think if it goes on anymore, then this thread will morph into a horrible flame-fest between me and everyone else.:( (Isn't it a bit late at this point?)
No, I am not giving up. (Hard assed B****** speech)

Shadowmoon
16 Jul 2008, 17:45
Yakuza: I never said anything about mastering the game. I meant 2D is easier to get used to, and it is.

yakuza
16 Jul 2008, 18:34
Yakuza: I never said anything about mastering the game. I meant 2D is easier to get used to, and it is.
Yes I agree, its superior design allows it to be simple enough for those who only aim to have a casual game.

CJH
16 Jul 2008, 19:53
People keep nagging that 3D isn't perfect, but I think we should thank Team17 for bothering, and no game in the universe can be absoloutely perfect. Except for F1: 2002, but that's my opinion.:D

[UFP]Ghost
16 Jul 2008, 20:42
People keep nagging that 3D isn't perfect, but I think we should thank Team17 for bothering, and no game in the universe can be absoloutely perfect. Except for F1: 2002, but that's my opinion.:D
I'm not just saying worms 3D isn't perfect. The problem is it isn't even coming close compared to how close to perfect the 2D games have come.

CJH
17 Jul 2008, 16:29
Ghost;660594']I'm not just saying worms 3D isn't perfect. The problem is it isn't even coming close compared to how close to perfect the 2D games have come.
The 2D Games are not perfect.
What? Oh, you want a reason eh? I'll give you a reason! 3D Games provide more realism and are something we can relate to, living in a 3D world ourselves. So I advise you to stop living in the past, and think how we can improve the future. (The future being proberly 3D games)

yakuza
17 Jul 2008, 17:15
The 2D Games are not perfect.
What? Oh, you want a reason eh? I'll give you a reason! 3D Games provide more realism and are something we can relate to, living in a 3D world ourselves. So I advise you to stop living in the past, and think how we can improve the future. (The future being proberly 3D games)
Your reason is flawed. Realism in worms doesn't make it more fun, in fact, it probably makes it less fun.

Shadowmoon
17 Jul 2008, 17:29
The 2D Games are not perfect.
Nothings perfect. The word 'perfect' shouldn't even exist.
The 2D Games are, however much better than the 3D series. I changed my opinion.:p I found out yesterday that i do like 2D more than 3D. I've been thinking 3D is the best for years, but i've changed my opinion.
The thing is with 3D, it doesn't seem like a strategy game. It actually seems a little like a close combat fighting game, in my opinion. The landscapes look better yeah, but 3D takes away some of the strategy. This is in my opinion whats making people not like 3D.
3D Games provide more realism and are something we can relate to, living in a 3D world ourselves
:confused:
I honestly don't know what to say to this. Is that the reason why it is better? i don't think so. And it isn't better.
Yes, it provides more realism, and the graphics look better, but graphics don't make the game. At least spend some effort on them, but their not the most important thing in a game.
So I advise you to stop living in the past
Nononononono.
The past isn't always better. IIRC, i think that the console that has sold the much is a gameboy (not the advance) not even the seventh generation consoles have outsold it. Most people (adults mostly) seem to like the past (30 years ago) more than today.
Why does everyone say this? the past isn't bad, or 'boring'

_Kilburn
17 Jul 2008, 18:11
Here's a quick estimation:
It would take you 2 years to be be a succesful roper and roperacer. And you'd still be light years from the good ropers around.
It would take you an extra year to be a succesful elite player.
It would take you one more year to hold yourself in BnG.
And one more to learn the remaining schemes.
That's 6 years to become an expert WA player, and that's being optimistic. Would you claim the learning curve in the 3D series is any close to that? Because I'd laugh if you do.
Ehh, WA isn't made of roperaces, BnGs and all this online stuff. All those gamemodes have been designed by players, they have been made for the 2D Worms, so I don't think this is a valid argument because those just don't exist in the 3D games.
So, yeah, I think 2D is easier than 3D. Just try to score a direct hit with a bazooka at the same distance in 2D and in 3D, the comparison is as simple as that.
Not that I'm trying to prove 3D is better than 2D. I think they both have their pros and cons (please don't say that 2D has more pros or 3D has more cons), and I seriously don't care about how many dimensions the next Worms should have. Though I still think making another 2D Worms for the PC wouldn't be a good idea since it would either fail, or kill WA.

Plasma
17 Jul 2008, 18:11
IIRC, i think that the console that has sold the much is a gameboy (not the advance) not even the seventh generation consoles have outsold it.
Actually, the PS2 is, having sold roughly 8 million more units than the Gameboy/Gameboy Color/Gameboy Pocket.
But I strongly agree that newer doesn't equal better, even in video games. And too many people think that, hence why people keep on asking for a new game to be made that's just like W:A.

yakuza
17 Jul 2008, 18:25
Ehh, WA isn't made of roperaces, BnGs and all this online stuff. All those gamemodes have been designed by players, they have been made for the 2D Worms, so I don't think this is a valid argument because those just don't exist in the 3D games.
So, yeah, I think 2D is easier than 3D. Just try to score a direct hit with a bazooka at the same distance in 2D and in 3D, the comparison is as simple as that.
Did you miss "to become an expert WA player" on purpose?
I said the learning curve is higher, obviously, this is comparing the the skill to other players to build up some prespective. If you don't know what learning curve is go ask a friend, the fact that the games don't share the same gamemodes doesn't stop one or the other from having a deeper learning curve. PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER has a bigger learning curve than DOOM 2.
Oh, and do some research on the schemes before talking about them just to avoid making ignorant mistakes like the ones above. BnG is an official scheme since WA was released, so yes, those gamemodes are Worms. Roping around is WA, as much as you hate it, it is, it's part of the skill needed to compete, or to complete the trainning modes and missions.
"Try doing a direct hit with a bazooka over the same distance" is such a stupid example. It's one weapon. Try roping the same distance in both games, or using the shotgun. See my point?
And before trying to defend your bazooka point saying "BUT YOU ALSO NAMED SCHEMES OF CHOICE", yes, I did, but those cover EVERYTHING. Or at least, everything mainstream to be considered an allaround great W2, WA or WWP player.

[UFP]Ghost
17 Jul 2008, 20:54
Ghost;660594']I'm not just saying worms 3D isn't perfect. The problem is it isn't even coming close compared to how close to perfect the 2D games have come.
The 2D Games are not perfect.
What? Oh, you want a reason eh? I'll give you a reason! 3D Games provide more realism and are something we can relate to, living in a 3D world ourselves. So I advise you to stop living in the past, and think how we can improve the future. (The future being proberly 3D games)
I laugh at your stupidity. Where in there did I even say that 2D games are perfect? Read it again, but this time don't imagine what you want to read. It said it was a lot closer. But not perfect.
I also happen to think that aiming in 3d is not very hard, sure if you don't understand how the wind works it can be difficult to aim but first person makes it easy. The extra dimensions only affect aiming to do with the wind. Otherwise it's the same idea. The shotgun is basically a joke in 3D, it takes so little skill to aim it. 3D is slightly more challenging but then for 2D you have to learn how to rope really well so it's harder.
2D or not 2D, that is the question.
Frailty thy name is 3D!
Why did he delete his post after mine?

Shadowmoon
21 Jul 2008, 08:52
Plasma, would you mind posting proof that the PS2 is the best selling console?
And CJH, you have basically said that 2D games suck and 3D games rule....
Shocking.
UFP Ghost: A string of posts (including CJH's) have been removed by the mods.

_Kilburn
21 Jul 2008, 09:11
Did you miss "to become an expert WA player" on purpose?
I said the learning curve is higher, obviously, this is comparing the the skill to other players to build up some prespective. If you don't know what learning curve is go ask a friend, the fact that the games don't share the same gamemodes doesn't stop one or the other from having a deeper learning curve. PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER has a bigger learning curve than DOOM 2.
Oh, and do some research on the schemes before talking about them just to avoid making ignorant mistakes like the ones above. BnG is an official scheme since WA was released, so yes, those gamemodes are Worms. Roping around is WA, as much as you hate it, it is, it's part of the skill needed to compete, or to complete the trainning modes and missions.
"Try doing a direct hit with a bazooka over the same distance" is such a stupid example. It's one weapon. Try roping the same distance in both games, or using the shotgun. See my point?
And before trying to defend your bazooka point saying "BUT YOU ALSO NAMED SCHEMES OF CHOICE", yes, I did, but those cover EVERYTHING. Or at least, everything mainstream to be considered an allaround great W2, WA or WWP player.
Okay, BnG is a default scheme, I made a mistake there. Anyway, I've been playing WA for about 8 years, so I think I know approximatively what it is all about, and well, 3D is harder to master than 2D. Actually, I've seen only 1 or 2 experts online in Worms 4 Mayhem, they were able to take a worm down with a grenade from an impressive distance (without using the first person view), and they were perfectly using the rope. Sorry to return your argument, but the shotgun was actually the one stupid example, because it's the only one in the game (well, the sniper rifle doesn't count). Try using any other weapon and you'll eventually find out that they are harder to master than their 2D versions (yes, even the airstrike). There are also lots of hard rope tricks, and since the rope physics are different, those tricks are different as well, so although they may look easy, they are amazingly hard to do.
I have been playing the 3D Worms series for about 5 years, and I'm still not really accurate with some weapons, despite lots of hours of training, so feel free to say that I suck, but I think I know what I am talking about.
Please take some time to play the game before placing such empty arguments about it. :p
Edit: I don't hate roping at all, by the way. I just hate how everyone is using it as a generic argument about how 2D is perfect.

yakuza
21 Jul 2008, 09:29
Okay, BnG is a default scheme, I made a mistake there. Anyway, I've been playing WA for about 8 years, so I think I know approximatively what it is all about, and well, 3D is harder to master than 2D. Actually, I've seen only 1 or 2 experts online in Worms 4 Mayhem, they were able to take a worm down with a grenade from an impressive distance (without using the first person view), and they were perfectly using the rope. Sorry to return your argument, but the shotgun was actually the one stupid example, because it's the only one in the game (well, the sniper rifle doesn't count). Try using any other weapon and you'll eventually find out that they are harder to master than their 2D versions (yes, even the airstrike). There are also lots of hard rope tricks, and since the rope physics are different, those tricks are different as well, so although they may look easy, they are amazingly hard to do.
I have been playing the 3D Worms series for about 5 years, and I'm still not really accurate with some weapons, despite lots of hours of training, so feel free to say that I suck, but I think I know what I am talking about.
Please take some time to play the game before placing such empty arguments about it. :p
Edit: I don't hate roping at all, by the way. I just hate how everyone is using it as a generic argument about how 2D is perfect.
Care to have a match with me in WA? If you've played it for 8 years you must be incredibly good at it, or a hypocrite.

Kfir
21 Jul 2008, 13:20
I say 2D can be better.
People think 3D is the future of gaming, but there are just games that look better on 2D.
Look at this game for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuoRp32W5l0
I would say that this game is an inspiration for the next Worms game.
This is a 2D game with great graphics and with plenty physics calculations.
This is a really new improved game engine, but this is the future of gaming, not everything is about graphics but about making it realistic. :)

_Kilburn
21 Jul 2008, 13:44
I would, if my laptop didn't have a ****ty Intel chipset that crashes WA at startup. Actually, I haven't played WA for some long time, but I was pretty good at it.
Anyway, what I wanted to say is most of those who don't like 3D for generic reasons didn't play it enough to enjoy the gameplay, which is a great pity. I can understand that they prefer 2D because they have been playing it longer, but hell, give the 3D players a break and stop spitting out such pointless arguments about it.

yakuza
21 Jul 2008, 15:29
I would, if my laptop didn't have a ****ty Intel chipset that crashes WA at startup. Actually, I haven't played WA for some long time, but I was pretty good at it.
Anyway, what I wanted to say is most of those who don't like 3D for generic reasons didn't play it enough to enjoy the gameplay, which is a great pity. I can understand that they prefer 2D because they have been playing it longer, but hell, give the 3D players a break and stop spitting out such pointless arguments about it.
It works both ways though. Difference being that most of the 3D lovers, those who cannot appreciate the 2D genre are mostly 11 year olds with issues.
The 3D games do have things that take more time to master. Throwing projectiles come to mind. But it still lacks any real scheme deep enough to match WA's, in everything.
I might have not played the game too long, but I played it enough to notice that being extremly good at roping or throwing long distance grenades doesn't really make a difference. You can just walk close enough to rope catch him and a near barrel and boom. You don't even need precision to drop weapons since worms tend to fly the same distance regardless of were you drop the weapon if it's close enough.
Might be just me, but from my experience, me, being a noob W4 player, having played WA, I could still give a challenge to "pro" 3D players and even beat them without too much effort. I just don't see that working the other way around, at all.

CJH
21 Jul 2008, 18:34
It works both ways though. Difference being that most of the 3D lovers, those who cannot appreciate the 2D genre are mostly 11 year olds with issues.
Your powers are weak old man.:-/
Close on the age, but no cigar.

yakuza
21 Jul 2008, 18:37
Your powers are weak old man.:-/
Close on the age, but no cigar.
I never specifically said you were included. Obviously this doesn't mean I'm not including you, either.

robowurmz
21 Jul 2008, 18:38
Ok, let's sum this up. Let's say...
The 2D games are entirely different games to the 3D ones.
They are both different games called Worms. They cannot be compared to one another. There are too many differences.
Now, all 'o' ya just sit down, shut up, and PLAY THE FREAKING GAMES INSTEAD OF POINTLESSLY BATTING ARGUMENTS BACK AND FORTH!

Shadowmoon
21 Jul 2008, 18:47
Your powers are weak old man.:-/
Close on the age, but no cigar.
CJH will battle and battle and battle and battle and battle.....
To tell CJH to sit down, is like turning a frog into a man.

jsgnext
22 Jul 2008, 01:42
It works both ways though. Difference being that most of the 3D lovers, those who cannot appreciate the 2D genre are mostly 11 year olds with issues.
im 18 yo,i played the 2d series since worms reinforcements,i played all the worms 2d games exept worms blast(puzzle)....and i think the new worms game must be in 3d ;).
Reason:
Ghost;660594']worms 3D isn't perfect. The problem is it isn't even coming close compared to how close to perfect the 2D games have come.
the 3d series must get closer to the perfection

CJH
22 Jul 2008, 17:04
CJH will battle and battle and battle and battle and battle.....
To tell CJH to sit down, is like turning a frog into a man.
Yeah, It's easy!:D
All you need is love! ;)

_Kilburn
23 Jul 2008, 09:30
I might have not played the game too long, but I played it enough to notice that being extremly good at roping or throwing long distance grenades doesn't really make a difference. You can just walk close enough to rope catch him and a near barrel and boom. You don't even need precision to drop weapons since worms tend to fly the same distance regardless of were you drop the weapon if it's close enough.
That's true, but I guess you can only blame Team17 for adding to the rope the ability to drag objects, which tends to encourage firing bazookas at point blank or dropping grenades like dynamites (there is even a tip which explains how to do that). Though WA currently has a better gameplay that any of the 3D Worms, I think 3D is still more exploitable. The only problem there is a serious amount of gameplay issues that have never been solved, which makes about everything much easier for everyone.
So yeah, again, 2D is currently technically better than 3D, but 3D is still a very interesting, yet under-exploited concept and I'd love to see it being more developed.

yakuza
23 Jul 2008, 10:36
The only way I could possibly get to love a 3D worms is if they added two features which I believe are key.
- WA-like phisics, for worms, weapons and terrain deformation. And I don't mean the same values for gravity and fraction, I mean equally in depth.
- The ability to move to pseudo 2D with a camera targetting system. Per example, if you locate your target, you can"focus" him and then press a key that would give you a 2D-esque prespective, with a camera movement, that showed on screen your worm and your target. All the objects inbetween the your camera eye and those two worms would need to be transparent. Only those objects which can interfer with the projectile trayectory would be seen in full opacy, including of course, ground and ceiling. The problem with this would be wind and the fact that certain weapons like grenades can bounce into the Z axis, which could provide some really complex technical difficulties.

wormmike16
24 Jul 2008, 08:05
The first Worms game I played was 3D and I liked it alot. The 2D Worms games are at their peak and I doubt they can be improved much more. 3D is something that needs to be perfected though;I would know I owned all 3 3D worms games. So I voted for 3D.

yakuza
24 Jul 2008, 08:08
I've never seen so many people prefer something because they think it can be better as opposed to it being better.

_Kilburn
24 Jul 2008, 09:20
Again, the concept is more interesting and exploitable, only the gameplay needs to be perfected. Also, he never implied that he prefered 3D, he just said that he would like the next Worms game to be 3D.
- WA-like phisics, for worms, weapons and terrain deformation. And I don't mean the same values for gravity and fraction, I mean equally in depth.
That would be perfect, adding the possibility to push worms by launching other worms at them just like in 2D would be awesome. :p
- The ability to move to pseudo 2D with a camera targetting system. Per example, if you locate your target, you can"focus" him and then press a key that would give you a 2D-esque prespective, with a camera movement, that showed on screen your worm and your target. All the objects inbetween the your camera eye and those two worms would need to be transparent. Only those objects which can interfer with the projectile trayectory would be seen in full opacy, including of course, ground and ceiling. The problem with this would be wind and the fact that certain weapons like grenades can bounce into the Z axis, which could provide some really complex technical difficulties.
Not such a good idea there, it would turn it back into a 2D game with 3D graphics and multiple terrain layers. And as you said, it would have way too many limitations to be playable. I would rather suggest simply displaying a 3D crosshair in the third person view so you can see where the worm is aiming, this would approach the 2D concept while still being 3D.

Plasma
24 Jul 2008, 09:41
That would be perfect, adding the possibility to push worms by launching other worms at them just like in 2D would be awesome. :p
Y'know, I don't ever remember a time playing in 3D where one worm ever even collided with another.

_Kilburn
24 Jul 2008, 11:33
Because you're not trying to make it happen, since you usually prefer sending them into the water. :p

quakerworm
24 Jul 2008, 14:36
because that's the fastest way to win. because the terrain is small. because t17's engine can't support anything much bigger.
now, with a better engine, proper camera, and balanced weapons... but that's a whole different game.

SupSuper
25 Jul 2008, 13:56
Not to mention the much smaller odds of one worm hitting another in 3D.

quakerworm
29 Jul 2008, 22:10
Not to mention the much smaller odds of one worm hitting another in 3D.
that's easily tunned by varying explosion radius.

WormHorse
30 Aug 2008, 20:36
LOL 2.5D A worms 4 game but a side scroller:D

miketh200
8 Oct 2008, 20:38
We've already had a lot of these threads.
Anyway, i prefer 3D more, and i would like the next worms game to be 3D. 2D is call too, but 3D does it for me.
Also because we've had enough 2D games and i think they should return to 3D at some point soon.
Sorry? The last 2D worms game on the PC was Worms World Party back in 2000!!!! Which isn't so differnt from W:A, we seriously need a new 2D on PC, take worms 3D on the other platforms, but leave my PC alone, 3D monsters! :(
The first Worms game I played was 3D and I liked it alot. The 2D Worms games are at their peak and I doubt they can be improved much more. 3D is something that needs to be perfected though;I would know I owned all 3 3D worms games. So I voted for 3D.
Better graphics?
There are ALOT of things that can still be improved, considering the last 2D worms was back in 2000 and out-dated by now, just look at WOW2.

minute55
13 Oct 2008, 11:06
3D.I love 2D,but 3D just makes the cut for me.I would like the next worms game to be 3D.
And sticky this,so people dont make anymore of these.

Metaknight
22 Oct 2008, 15:32
Both are cool. Also a 2d worms with customable teams/weapons could be gorgeous!

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