Whats done towards cheaters? Nothing? [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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Louie
24 Nov 2008, 13:08
Its a pitty that its so many "kids" playing W:A online, which leads towards very childish behaviour by many. For example, everyone overestimates themselves, when you're looking for good challenge and ask them if they are very good, they say yes, and later on you find out its a big lie and you've wasted some of your time.
When i host a game (i only play 1v1s) i dont wanna just play one game and then have to rehost and look for other challenge since it could take some time, so its so funny when you ask best of 3 and ppl runs away after their first win which anyone could pull of since its Worms, turnbased and to a certain level, random, since you cannot do anything about your spawns. anyway, my point, to try to show that you're better than someone by winning one game then running away is pathetic.
I onced played this russian kid, Gufron, i won first game and he thought i were gonna leave so he makes sure to say "ok, 1-0" i said sure, lets do best of 3. second game i were starting to win quite early into the game and he drops, quite lame. today he joins me again, i just want to play so, we play. he wins first, second game i were starting to win and i THINK he were cheating. Help me out here, I could be wrong, but what happened exactly was this;
we both had 3 worms left, his turn while moving the seemed like the game somehow "snapped", and his 3 worms turned invisible, he moved around and did his move. when it was my turn, his worms are still invis. i do my move and kill one of his worms since i knew where it was. now its his turn again moving, so its 2-3 round has passed and he's still invisible, he makes his move, now 4th time its my turn, and he's STILL invisible.... and he try's to act like nothing and say its invisible. I play normal (Intermediate. se worms olympics for exact rules) from what i know, invisibility isnt enabled. am i wrong?
I even do got the replay from the match so i got proof if it was cheating. Imo something should be done towards cheater since its NOT acceptable, ban him from wormnet or something.

CyberShadow
24 Nov 2008, 13:14
It is possible to obtain Invisibility in the Intermediate scheme by collecting an utility crate.
Due to the way the game engine is designed, it is nearly impossible to cheat by directly altering the game's state. In short, if it's not possible to achieve something by correctly pressing keys on the keyboard at the right moments, it's also not possible to do via any other means (in online games with the latest Beta version).

Dario
24 Nov 2008, 13:22
Invisitbility is a utility that you get from utility crates. Once activated it will remain active until you use a weapon (with some exceptions, I don't remember if you can blowtorch into the land without hitting an enemy worm and still keep the invisibility).
You remind me a lot of the kind of players that say things like "you ****ed cheater are botan" when I use a team-weapon different than flamethrower without having picked up a crate. Let alone those who think that using the second shot from a rope costs you another rope. And those who are convinced that using the jetpack, wormselect or low gravity are cheats, and so on.
Take it easy, my friend, don't be so paranoid. After all it is just a game, and it is not even rated.

franpa
24 Nov 2008, 13:26
Majority of people are after skillful players, so naturally the less skilled will start lying and saying they are good, because it is the only way they won't get kicked from a game :/
unless there is some way to force everyone to do the offline missions BEFORE playing online, then that would be great, maybe make it a requirement to unlock "online mode" when v4.0 is out?

robowurmz
24 Nov 2008, 13:36
At least some VERY basic training for the game concept?
For example; Grenades, Bazookas, Movement.

Melon
24 Nov 2008, 14:23
In case you aren't aware, you can only get the invisibility utility during online games, because it would be totally useless for offline games.
So invisibility always has been activated in the Intermediate scheme, it's just that you'll never be able to get it or use it during offline games.

Louie
24 Nov 2008, 14:33
okay thanks all.
anyway Dario, the thing is that, during his round when he turned invisible he used a weapon, then my turn (kill) his turn again, he uses a next weapon and still remains invisible, so thats 2 used weapons and two rounds for me and he's still invisible. thats why i wanted to ask before i came to a conclusion.
anyway, i am pretty new to W:A, but its very similar to W:R in a way and ive been playing that alot so im learning quite fast, by now i think i would know pretty much there is to know, maybe not fully 100%. i do like normal 1v1s, and ive been asking some good, acceptable players (acceptable behaviour players that is) for msn, so i got like a little worms groups on my msn to easy schedule to play some matches now and then with descent and good players =) im not out here to grudge anyone. i just hate this behaviour but mostly ignores it and most of all, i hate cheaters. so if im wrong with Gufron, im TOTALLY sorry for that!
anyway, feel free to add me at; Louie413(a)hotmail.com .. (a) = @ :p peace.

CyberShadow
24 Nov 2008, 14:41
From the ReadMe:The Invisibility utility remains active until any weapon that causes damage is used - specifically, all weapons that don't end your turn (including utilities) and Girder, Girder Starter Pack, Prod, Freeze and Teleport.
Reworded for clarity:
The Invisibility utility remains active until any damaging weapon is used — specifically, anything other than Girder, Girder Starter Pack, Prod, Freeze, Ninja Rope, Bungee, Parachute, Teleport, Freeze, Select Worm, Skip Go, Surrender, and all Utilities.

Louie
24 Nov 2008, 15:29
From the ReadMe:
Reworded for clarity:
The Invisibility utility remains active until any damaging weapon is used — specifically, anything other than Girder, Girder Starter Pack, Prod, Freeze, Ninja Rope, Bungee, Parachute, Teleport, Freeze, Select Worm, Skip Go, Surrender, and all Utilities.
during his round when he turned invisible he used a weapon, then my turn (kill) his turn again, he uses a next weapon and still remains invisible, so thats 2 used weapons and two rounds for me and he's still invisible..
he used a WEAPON, and killed my worm first time invis. second time he was still invis, used bazooka, then my turn, he's STILL invis. >,>

robowurmz
24 Nov 2008, 16:17
Since the game jerked while you were playing, this leaves me to believe it's a bug on your end.

Muzer
24 Nov 2008, 17:12
At least some VERY basic training for the game concept?
For example; Grenades, Bazookas, Movement.
Two problems with that:
1) If a person loses their teams for whatever reason (hard drive dies, reformat without remembering to back up W:A, getting corrupted etc), they will have to replay the missions again (which can be dishearting and tedious: how many times have you replayed a game through just to unlock things without getting bored or fed up?) Unless they...
2) Cheat. People could just download other team files from the internets, thereby bypassing the need for skill.

Evil Bunny
24 Nov 2008, 17:39
bla bla bla... very childish behaviour... bla bla bla
Like crying on a forum about how frustrated somebody you never even met made you feel? Did you really have to do that? I mean, really? Are you sure?
How about showing us the replay in which you claim something that's impossible made you lose.

robowurmz
24 Nov 2008, 19:33
Of course! The replay feature!
That's a good idea; how about giving us the replay file so we can check it out?

Louie
24 Nov 2008, 20:20
Of course! The replay feature!
That's a good idea; how about giving us the replay file so we can check it out?
like i said, how i described what happened is from what i REMEMBER, i could be wrong. i am gonna have a look at the replay and i sure hope (just saying, dont have any clue why the invisibility wont show on the replay) but it friggin should. im gonna have a look at the replay later....then i could post it somewhere, i dont know where tho..
i could be wrong and yeah, i also remembered completly wrong so, should've really watched the replay before i came to a conclusion and came posting up in here, that was really super stupid of me. he got the invis and i assumed to much. i really feel a tad stupid now lol. my bad ;p

Malevol3nt
24 Nov 2008, 21:17
unless there is some way to force everyone to do the offline missions BEFORE playing online, then that would be great, maybe make it a requirement to unlock "online mode" when v4.0 is out?
A) It wouldn't work. People would download team files and just edit them.
B) Even if it did work, what if you removed the game by accident and lost all information? You would have to re-do the offline missions again.
C) There's quite a few schemes out there that aren't present in the missions. The offline missions would only do good for normal schemes (and maybe it would teach them some basic rope skills)
I think it's best to just practice offline in multiplayer mode, and try out the different schemes and maps that they can find on blamethepixel and wmdb.org. At least what they can do is read the rules.
This is especially true for all these new Southamerican (and other) players. I don't want to point fingers, but it seems to me that due to their lack of understanding english they do not know how to play the schemes.

franpa
25 Nov 2008, 01:46
vast majority of people who are hopeless, are completely hopeless and have no actual strategy... they just use the strongest weapons first and hope for the best :/
also, you could make it give the player a Password when completing all the offline missions that unlocks Online Mode. That way everyone has a good reason to kick them for being hopeless in Online Mode, especially if they went to a cheat site and got the password :/

Malevol3nt
25 Nov 2008, 03:21
I've never played all of the offline missions, yet I can play just about any scheme I've had my taste on. The missions are only really good for normal schemes, not much else.
A better system would be if the wormnet network had a user account system where the user is tracked on how many games they've played. And then have this number displayed somewhere when a person joins a host. That way you can tell if someone is experienced or not. But that's only a partial solution..

franpa
25 Nov 2008, 04:34
that just stops them from lying into most games, it doesn't help them learn how to play :/ since most people would still kick them o_o
EDIT: maybe Cybershadow, Deadcode or someone else, could make a replay demonstrating how to use the Rope and clearly explaining everything using Comments? (offline games allow comments now) then make a sticky on the forum or a automated announcement in #AG advertising the Replay?

robowurmz
25 Nov 2008, 07:17
Or how about a button? "New to Worms?" - That'll take you to some tutorials.

Dario
25 Nov 2008, 12:30
I <3 tutorials.

bonz
25 Nov 2008, 14:05
How about a new channel called #tutorial that has links to commented replays of standard techniques and popular schemes, which are hosted on WMDB?
Newbies that log into Wormnet for the first time could automatically get redirected to that new channel. Or maybe a pop-up that tells them about the channel.

Metal Alex
25 Nov 2008, 15:26
How about a new channel called #tutorial that has links to commented replays of standard techniques and popular schemes, which are hosted on WMDB?
Newbies that log into Wormnet for the first time could automatically get redirected to that new channel. Or maybe a pop-up that tells them about the channel.
This... this is a good idea. You can even put advanced stuff at the end.

yakuza
25 Nov 2008, 18:14
How about we stop understimating the human race? Seriously, if people are that retarded that they need a big shiny button to find some relevant information then it might not be worth teaching them, at all.
The people who want to learn and are uncapable of asking around or checking google are mostly 8-10 year olds, those won't learn no matter what you do, it's too much trouble, just let them be noobs until they grow up.
No no, let's ask people who already put too much work in WA to code a super program that spoon feeds every newbie out there. And let's ignore the usefulness of things.
You guys need to understand that even if your idea has a principle and a theory, it still needs to be executed, and it's time consuming, and for the most part IT'S NOT WORTH IT and that's why we drive cars with wheels and not spaceships.

AndrewTaylor
25 Nov 2008, 18:52
How about we stop understimating the human race? Seriously, if people are that retarded that they need a big shiny button to find some relevant information then it might not be worth teaching them, at all.
The people who want to learn and are uncapable of asking around or checking google are mostly 8-10 year olds, those won't learn no matter what you do, it's too much trouble, just let them be noobs until they grow up.
No no, let's ask people who already put too much work in WA to code a super program that spoon feeds every newbie out there. And let's ignore the usefulness of things.
You guys need to understand that even if your idea has a principle and a theory, it still needs to be executed, and it's time consuming, and for the most part IT'S NOT WORTH IT and that's why we drive cars with wheels and not spaceships.
I don't think the problem is that people "don't want to learn". They don't know there is anything to learn. When you buy a new game do you first of all look up all the online communities and read up to see if there's any rulesets specific to the online game, or do you just fire it up and hit 'go'? If it's not the latter, you are an anomaly (although we knew that already).
You can't blame the newbies for not knowing that in a game with a name as opaque as "proper" you will be immediately picked on for something as normal as firing a weapon from the ground. Then everyone starts shouting 'cow', which frankly is even less helpful, and the poor bemused newbie is wiped out before their second turn, at no stage understanding what the hell happened. This isn't intuitive, obvious stuff that everyone will pick up on; this is arcane and unpredictable nonsense, that you will be mercilessly punished for not already knowing.
If you have an online community like that then you need some kind of tutorial for it, or else you'll never get any new players.

yakuza
25 Nov 2008, 19:00
I don't think the problem is that people "don't want to learn". They don't know there is anything to learn. When you buy a new game do you first of all look up all the online communities and read up to see if there's any rulesets specific to the online game, or do you just fire it up and hit 'go'? If it's not the latter, you are an anomaly (although we knew that already).
So if you buy a game, say Age of Empires II and want to learn how to play properly online you're telling me you don't ask around, browse the internet for guides, find and download replays etc?
You will go online. People will say "rush", people will call you a "camper" or whatever AoE2 argot. And no, there's no shiny ****ing button were you go and it teaches you all this. You do your own research.
I know people in this forum take pride of being one dimensional and closed minded. But get a ****ing prespective will you?
Seriously, I've never seen ignorance being so celebrated like in this place. People just make a post for the sake of making a post. Do you even play online games?

Plasma
25 Nov 2008, 19:41
You will go online. People will say "rush", people will call you a "camper" or whatever AoE2 argot.
Well no, that's a case of the other guy not playing properly, as rushing and camping are legitimate strategies. Unless the game was called something like "no rush", which is rarely done.

AndrewTaylor
25 Nov 2008, 19:45
So if you buy a game, say Age of Empires II and want to learn how to play properly online you're telling me you don't ask around, browse the internet for guides, find and download replays etc?
You will go online. People will say "rush", people will call you a "camper" or whatever AoE2 argot. And no, there's no shiny ****ing button were you go and it teaches you all this. You do your own research.
What do you mean "want to learn to play properly online"? It's a game. Play it how you like. That's the point: some tactics work, some don't. I've not played AoE2 so I'll take the example of any FPS deathmatch you care to name. In that game, you might not be well liked for camping, but it's a legitimate tactic and nobody can tell you you shouldn't be doing it. More to the point, if the other players want to gang up to get rid of the camper, that's a legitimate tactic too. That's the equivalent of entering a normal game on Wormnet and darksiding your way to victory. Might not be popular, but all's fair. And if people only played normal games on Wormnet, there'd be no problem.
The difference here is that a roper is not Worms. It's just not. It's a wholly distinct game that has extra rules that are not explained anywhere in the game or manual and breaking those rules is not a legitimate tactic: it's cheating. But if there's no way for the person doing it to know about it, and all they get told when they do it is 'ktc ktc ktck tcckctk' then how are they supposed to learn? Seriously, put yourself in their shoes and tell me how they're supposed to know what to do.
If you want to punish people for breaking rules you made up, it seems like the polite thing to do is to explain them first. More to the point... did you just use the word 'argot'? Oh, my.
I know people in this forum take pride of being one dimensional and closed minded. But get a ****ing prespective will you?
Swearing at the mods is a good plan. Try that again, see how it works out for you.

yakuza
25 Nov 2008, 20:21
What do you mean "want to learn to play properly online"? It's a game. Play it how you like. That's the point: some tactics work, some don't. I've not played AoE2 so I'll take the example of any FPS deathmatch you care to name. In that game, you might not be well liked for camping, but it's a legitimate tactic and nobody can tell you you shouldn't be doing it. More to the point, if the other players want to gang up to get rid of the camper, that's a legitimate tactic too. That's the equivalent of entering a normal game on Wormnet and darksiding your way to victory. Might not be popular, but all's fair. And if people only played normal games on Wormnet, there'd be no problem.
The difference here is that a roper is not Worms. It's just not. It's a wholly distinct game that has extra rules that are not explained anywhere in the game or manual and breaking those rules is not a legitimate tactic: it's cheating. But if there's no way for the person doing it to know about it, and all they get told when they do it is 'ktc ktc ktck tcckctk' then how are they supposed to learn? Seriously, put yourself in their shoes and tell me how they're supposed to know what to do.
Swearing at the mods is a good plan. Try that again, see how it works out for you.
You're online gaming experience is clearly flawed and thus you're unable to comprehend that almost all online multiplayer games have custom made minigames with no official documentation and that people learn about them just fine by looking at google. That's right. You ask around or you check the internet if you care about Tower Defense. Or Shopper. Or whatever custom made content that every online game has.
But yeah, keep being an ignorant idiot, thomasp has your back. For all the intolerance towards retards in this forum you sure want to give them an easy time in WA. You know why? Because why would you care? You don't play the game.
But **** it if I can be arsed with the idiocy in this forum, I'm just glad it's not the retards here that decide. We've all been newbies, and there hasn't been any problem with learning how to rope or bng in WA's decade of history. If people struggle at the begining that'll fix itself in the long run, we don't have time to spoon feed the **** out of newbies, it's not practical nor productive. It's a waste of time. That's my original point, and it's not my opinion, it's a fact shared by many people that unlike you, know what is going on in the game. You're just a guy watching it from the outside giving wrong input because you're an ignorant.
And next time you want to infract someone for swearing, make sure you don't troll the hell out of him by calling him an anomaly purely based on your own ignorance.
Farewell moron

AndrewTaylor
25 Nov 2008, 21:32
Alright, that's enough from you for a while. Stay out of this thread for a bit.

Metal Alex
25 Nov 2008, 21:34
Teching people is nice, yeah. They get to learn for future stuff.
Imagine Yakuza learned manners! He would be treated like a normal guy, just like newbies learn stuff, and they improve...
Thanks for the example!

AndrewTaylor
25 Nov 2008, 21:38
Teching people is nice, yeah. They get to learn for future stuff.
Imagine Yakuza learned manners! He would be treated like a normal guy, just like newbies learn stuff, and they improve...
Thanks for the example!
Well, maybe he's right. After all, explaining the rules to people doesn't seem to work...

Malevol3nt
25 Nov 2008, 21:53
Yakuza spread your hate somewhere else please.
And newbies can learn a whole lot if people let them know the rules and how to play. Hey, I've started playing WA only a year ago, but now I know how to play Shoppers, Ropers, Hysteria, WxW, wfw, bng, bungee race, t17 etc etc, not even counting the new wormkit schemes. So stop that "I was here first and the newbies don't have the right to play" attitude. You're no better then anyone else, and everyone deserves a chance.
In my opinion these newbies just need a pointer to a few short guides on how to start a game, how to behave etc. A day doesn't go by without seeing someone in AG yelling "How do I host?!", or "What is this XYZ scheme".
Maybe just put an intro image before you join AG, that displays the most popular schemes and their rules. Simple as that. Maybe even put it in english aswell as spanish. That could help at least half of the problems for newbies that want to learn how to play. They'll see this screen everytime they connect online, and they will eventually memorize these rules.

yakuza
25 Nov 2008, 22:20
Teching people is nice, yeah. They get to learn for future stuff.
Imagine Yakuza learned manners! He would be treated like a normal guy, just like newbies learn stuff, and they improve...
Thanks for the example!
When did I exactly say that teaching others is wrong?
Way to miss my point completely.

Plasma
25 Nov 2008, 22:42
When did I exactly say that teaching others is wrong?
Way to miss my point completely.
Right here:
we don't have time to spoon feed the **** out of newbies, it's not practical nor productive. It's a waste of time.

MihaiS
25 Nov 2008, 23:46
I want to get some attention too. Is this post enough to earn me a "Being watched" tag? *thinks about calling some person a moron*

Melon
25 Nov 2008, 23:51
I don't agree with the idea that someone should be forced to do the missions or training or whatever before being allowed online. If you dive straight into the online game without knowing how to play Worms then you're a fool.
You're online gaming experience is clearly flawed and thus you're unable to comprehend that almost all online multiplayer games have custom made minigames with no official documentation and that people learn about them just fine by looking at google. That's right. You ask around or you check the internet if you care about Tower Defense. Or Shopper. Or whatever custom made content that every online game has.
....
We've all been newbies, and there hasn't been any problem with learning how to rope or bng in WA's decade of history. If people struggle at the begining that'll fix itself in the long run, we don't have time to spoon feed the **** out of newbies, it's not practical nor productive. It's a waste of time. That's my original point, and it's not my opinion, it's a fact shared by many people that unlike you, know what is going on in the game.
People here are trying to suggest ways to make it easier for people to be able to find the rules, such as links to the wiki in a special help channel or a screen with links when you load up wormnet.
Why is it bad that people are trying to make it easier for people to discover these rules? We're just trying to make Wormnet slightly more welcoming to newer members without infringing or altering the way the older members do anything. How is this a bad thing?
I'll agree that we need to consider whether such an idea is worth the time and effort taken to execute it, but don't forget that one of the people making updates for this game has made a wiki for information about the game, contributed to a multilingual help bot and more besides which seem to be designed around helping people, both new and old, have an easier and less confusing Wormnet experience by making this information easier to find.
A lot of people don't want to spend the time trying to teach people how to play the game, and I don't blame them in the slightest. If we can make this stuff easy to find, even if by only providing a link to the wiki somewhere in the Wormnet interface, then maybe we could spend less time answering questions and more time playing the game. Isn't that a better situation?
Just out of interest, have you ever sat in #help? Are you aware of the problems that people new to Wormnet have these days? Apparently not.

MihaiS
25 Nov 2008, 23:56
I don't agree with the idea that someone should be forced to do the missions or training or whatever before being allowed online. If you dive straight into the online game without knowing how to play Worms then you're a fool.
Mostly because people pay for the game and have the right to go straight to online games.

AndrewTaylor
26 Nov 2008, 00:02
Mostly because people pay for the game and have the right to go straight to online games.
Well yes, but when you first get it you're by definition the least experienced player in the world. Diving into a world full of people who play a lot is inconsiderate to them and it's not normally considered fun to repeatedly have your ass handed to you by strangers. Cut your teeth on the missions or something first and you'll enjoy it more.

MihaiS
26 Nov 2008, 00:07
Create a #newbs channel on Wormnet! Problem solved.

Melon
26 Nov 2008, 00:25
Mostly because people pay for the game and have the right to go straight to online games.
What?
They have the "right"?
I just bought "Generic RPG 3 : The Curse of the Pointless Subtitle" and I think I have the right to go straight to the final boss.
I've known a game to block people from going online until they've completed the tutorial. I think it's a bad idea because not everyone starting a new save is a total newcomer. I doubt it would be a popular decision and I'd fight such a change, but it certainly doesn't infringe on anyone's rights.

Koen-ftw
26 Nov 2008, 00:40
There is no way nagging messages and ingame help screens are going to work. It's a nice idea, but it just won't work. A newbie will just click right through them and go straight into a game (the same way they skip #Help!). They will then get called a noob, and kicked for not knowing the rules. Most of them will then simply ask others what those 'rules' are (they will eventually, even if not after their first match) - and often enough there's someone around who is nice enough to actually teach them (or they can visit #Help).
It's just the way things work online, and this is not restricted to WormNET but also happens in many other games. It's been like this for years. There is no reason to change it - nagging screens will only cause annoyances. I say we just keep things the way they are.

AndrewTaylor
26 Nov 2008, 00:55
A newbie will just click right through them and go straight into a game (the same way they skip #Help!).
They probably skip #help because they don't know there's stuff they don't know. There should be something on the lighting-ready screen that says 'in this game, it is against the rules to attack the team with least health. tip: press alt-gr (or whatever it is) to display the health bars' or similar. You spend ages there so they'll see it along with the ammo and suchlike. A text file associated with a scheme or a checkbox in the scheme editor that does it automatically or whatever would do it. But if you don't tell people about a rule, you can't very well get cross when they break it.

Malevol3nt
26 Nov 2008, 01:33
There is no way nagging messages and ingame help screens are going to work. It's a nice idea, but it just won't work. A newbie will just click right through them and go straight into a game (the same way they skip #Help!). They will then get called a noob, and kicked for not knowing the rules. Most of them will then simply ask others what those 'rules' are (they will eventually, even if not after their first match) - and often enough there's someone around who is nice enough to actually teach them (or they can visit #Help).
It's just the way things work online, and this is not restricted to WormNET but also happens in many other games. It's been like this for years. There is no reason to change it - nagging screens will only cause annoyances. I say we just keep things the way they are.
UT2004 & UT3 had a screen that would give you some basic tips, but that screen would show up when you're loading the level. So you can't really skip the screen since you're allready loading.
Altho in WA, levels load pretty fast..
Maybe a good idea would be if in the game, somewhere in the chatbox for example you had an area on the right with the rules displayed for the particular scheme that is played. Perhaps this could be done for the new scheme format comming in 4.0?
Let me show you what I mean:
http://i36.tinypic.com/2w7n8ls.png

franpa
26 Nov 2008, 01:47
or just have every online game include a "#Help spectator" (bot) that answers your questions? like type "KTL?" in chat and it will automatically PM that player what it means?

CyberShadow
26 Nov 2008, 07:45
Threads like these make me want to tear my hair out. Because, for the most part I agree with Yakuza.
We have put a lot of effort into making W:A friendlier to newbies already. First, there's the Worms Knowledge Base. While at first being just a collection of technical information back when I was reversing W:A, it now has lots of diverse information about W:A and its community. It contains articles on common Schemes (http://worms2d.info/Schemes) played on WormNET, as well as a page containing general WormNET Etiquette (http://worms2d.info/Etiquette) (which also contains a compendium of common rules).
Of course, a website that's only linked to from forum stickies wasn't enough (and its Google rating wasn't so high back then). So we've asked for a #Help channel so people can come and ask questions. Answering the same questions over and over wasn't practical, so I wrote an automated bot, that could answer most questions that players could have. But despite all the arm-waving on-join messages, many people completely ignore it, and proceed to ask a question (after which some immediately quit the channel without waiting for a reply).
I've added a new section to the Beta ReadMe, which lists important changes and additions so people wouldn't have to read through dozens of versions' worth of bugfixes and minor changes. Even for those pirates and victims of careless publishers, we've linked the original game manual PDF and added an errata. But of course, no one reads the official documentation.
I believe that more than enough has been done to make all the answers to questions someone would have available an as arm's reach. But from my experience, people don't want to help themselves.
Recently we've added localized strings to the Help bot that link to community websites in different languages. Right now, the only excuse most players might have for not being able to educate themselves about W:A and online play is not knowing what the English word "Help" means. If people decide to ignore the presence of the #Help channel or the Help bot or the links in the stickies posted on the official forums, in my opinion it would be a disgrace for me and the W:A community to come down to their level and spoon-feed them. Like Yakuza said - do you know any online game that officially incorporated in-game documentation of game styles and jargon invented by the players themselves? I believe we've done enough to help those who want to be helped.
Allow me to repost the nice piechart I made a few weeks ago illustrating the version usage on WormNET:
http://dump.thecybershadow.net/8594c2b52bf6fe80a2d58042c54752a6/0000016A.png
I estimate that a good part of those 3.6.28.0 users are pirates that downloaded W:A New Edition. People that download a game will not show the same attitude towards the game as those that bought it. I don't think it takes much imagination to understand the mindset of people that "downloaded some old game to check it out".
How about a new channel called #tutorial that has links to commented replays of standard techniques and popular schemes, which are hosted on WMDB?
How about a channel called #Help that has a Help bot linking to pages about schemes on WKB that have replays of popular schemes? Oh wait, that's almost the same but it's already done, isn't it? If it isn't, I don't think I need to remind you that WKB is a Wiki and you can edit the articles and upload your own commented replays.
They probably skip #help because they don't know there's stuff they don't know.That's an excuse for their first game only. The Help bot is perfectly capable of answering questions like "What do I say when people ask for rules?" or "What does cow mean?" or "What's with all the game types?" or "Hi I'm new, which games should I join?". Furthermore, I constantly monitor the questions that the bot was asked but couldn't answer, and update its database to include those questions (if they're on topic and properly worded).

yakuza
26 Nov 2008, 08:26
Right here:
No. There's a difference between not being willing to help and spoon feeding. The means to be helped have been on the table for quite some time now. What I'm against is shoving information into people's face when they will most likely ignore it. Because it's worthless effort.
Look, it's very convenient to sit from your position and just shoot suggestions in every direction. Let me ask you something, have you actually done anything to help? Have you written or revised anything in the wiki? Do you go to #help to help newbies?
It would help inmensly (specially stop me from losing my cool) if you got some prespective on the way this game works and how the community is before anything else.

Scrub555
26 Nov 2008, 10:36
People not knowing how to backflip shows how much they're not willing to go "out of their way" to find basic information.

Gnork
26 Nov 2008, 11:25
I feel we have 2 camps here.. one saying that newbies are too ignorant and don't want to learn, and another one saying that newbies can and will be helped a lot if they are being approached in a certain way.
yakuza's bull**** theory about 8-10 year olds who don't want to learn is the most utterly greatest nonsense I've ever heard. We all know that children can and do learn faster than adults. (period) We also know that amoungst children there are the ones who only pester others and ones who actually like to learn. I've seen kids of 9 roping better than the average adult on wormnet, so watch your mouth yakuza.
I think it's quite logical that the first time when people come online, they want to have a quick glance at what the online mode of a game has to offer. Thus, he/she will always join some game without wanting to read too much. But as soon as they realize people are impolite towards them and shouting ktcktcktc cowcow ****ing noob and sorts alike, they will either totally give up (thinking this game sux due to the behaviour online), OR, if they have more braincells to spend, try to find some help channel or website, explaining them how things work. The ones that are really interested in the game WILL read and learn from it.
Most simple solutions would improve a lot. For instance. The Welcome message when entering ag - should be changed, into something like "welcome to wormnet, for hosting problems and all other help topics, visit nanacide/wahelp". Yes, it's not pointing to the #help channel (since people can click on that b4 they enter partytime), but pointing directly to a website. By giving people one http link as soon as they enter AG, sooner or later they will notice it and visit that website when they feel they need to. People need a start, and for masses this means give them the most easy start you can imagine, and make it more easier cz you'll be astonished how dumb or completely different some people think. Grant it to them, or they'll stay in the dark.

CyberShadow
26 Nov 2008, 11:28
Did you read my post?
yakuza's bull**** theory about 8-10 year olds who don't want to learn is the most utterly greatest nonsense I've ever heard. We all know that children can and do learn faster than adults. (period) Maybe you should carefully read a person's post before attacking it.

MihaiS
26 Nov 2008, 11:35
I reckon the hard way is the best way. Consider it a sorting mechanism or a filtering system. Let them fuc*ers get kicked and called newbs/noobs/cows/cheaters/assholes/or-whatever. Sooner or later, If they really want to play Worms and become stable members of the community, they'll get to know everything there is to know about schemes, behavior and so on.
And this is so off topic.

yakuza
26 Nov 2008, 11:45
Some people make it seem like there's a bunch of people out there that want to learn to rope but can't find their way.
It's depressing, really.
Now, I've been told I'm an anomlay so perhaps this story doesn't have much relevance but still...
When I started playing W:A, in late 1999 early 2000 I was a 12 year old Spanish kid who had a very basic understanding of English. Back then, there was no such a thing as a worms wiki and there were 5 more channels and it was all much more confusing. People were elitist, much more than now. So, I joined a game and it was a roper and obviously I wasn't aware that the name of the game had anything to do with the scheme being played because I didn't even know what a scheme is.
And so these guys roped around the map and killed me quickly. At this point I didn't even know there was a chat in game, and I didn't find out until later. At this point I thought that "lol" meant "what". At this point I was a newbie not only in WA, but a newbie to the internet. And we used ICQ. Good old times.
So, I don't exactly remember how I learned how to rope, all I know is that I didn't even check a website.
I joined more ropers, probably by accident and I came to the conclusion that those games were about roping around killing the opponents, I was a mini Sherlock Holmes, I know.
So then I gradually learned my way, asking people what the different rules meant. I didn't learn from day to day. But I wanted to learn. And those willing to learn will learn.
What you're trying to do here is making people who don't want to stay at WA stay. To make people that don't care about ropers to care.
I insist that people back then were much more elitist than now, way more. A newbie running around with a bronze rank. No chance. Bang. Booted. Now it's totally different. People are willing to help newbies. What I find most ironic is you people here who demand things get done and don't do anything at all. Bravo.

Gnork
26 Nov 2008, 11:46
Did you read my post?
Yes I did, and it took quite a while to read this whole topic. To my idea a #help channel is useless for some people, since it needs input from the newbie in order to get the information he/she wants. Requiring input from an enduser is always a tricky weak spot. That's different than pointing to a website where everything can be read. Yes, almost the same, yet different. I'm pretty sure that if the url of the wiki (or nanacide or team17 forum or whatever) would be the first thing someone is seeing when entering a channel, it has a bigger chance of getting visited. Currently, people login to wormnet, and something in a small window scrolls below the top part of the screen where all the action is going on. People never read what happens when they login. They just immediately click on a channel cz they notice there's people in there. So welcome them over there together with an url to a website, and you'll notice the difference.

CyberShadow
26 Nov 2008, 11:48
You do know that the Help bot PMs the link to the WKB to every user who joins, right?

Gnork
26 Nov 2008, 11:53
Some people make it seem like there's a bunch of people out there that want to learn to rope but can't find their way.
It's depressing, really.
.. and then you start to talk about yourself, how you wanted to learn to rope.
You make it seem like there is nobody out there who wants to learn to rope. I've seen enough newbs, who want to learn the rules of a game, and who don't give up after 4 times failing. yet, I must say, there is at least 85% others, who indeed just aim a zook at the first victim in the area, shoot and press the quit button. Question is, why did that happen? Was it their lack of interest in learning, or was it the arrogance of the more experienced players who told them they're a piece of [[tree]]?

Gnork
26 Nov 2008, 11:55
You do know that the Help bot PMs the link to the WKB to every user who joins, right?
ty for the info, cz i didnt know ;)
gj on that, so forget my suggestion mentioned. It will take newbies just 2 more steps (quitting ag and joining another channel) in order to get this information, so let's hope it won't be too big of a burden for them. xD

CyberShadow
26 Nov 2008, 11:57
Was it their lack of interest in learning, or was it the arrogance of the more experienced players who told them they're no good?
Too bad we can't change either.
Hmm. Maybe we should make this video (http://wormtube.wyvsucks.org/?id=27) open automatically when people install the next Beta update :)

MihaiS
26 Nov 2008, 12:00
People, open your eyes, for God's sake! This thread is a trap! This time-consuming, energy-wasting discussion about noobs is going nowhere. No newbie is going to read this and no newbie is going to act different because of this. For once, let nature sort things out!
...or continue posting, because arguing is what humans are best at.
EDIT: *sigh*
EDIT No.2: *sigh*
EDIT No.3: yeah, you guessed right... *sigh*

yakuza
26 Nov 2008, 12:01
Question is, why did that happen? Was it their lack of interest in learning, or was it the arrogance of the more experienced players who told them they're no good?
Lack of interest in learning.
Didn't we go over this already? :-/

Gnork
26 Nov 2008, 12:04
Lack of interest in learning.
Didn't we go over this already? :-/
so.... every game they ever had.. they never had that game in order to learn how it works, and to play it until they master it?
they just had it there on the bookshelf, and once in a while they pop it into the cd drive to **** off some people online? maybe cz they need a stress releaver? wtf are you on, stop the crack dude. people play games cz they like to play them and if they like to play them they will want to learn how things work, otherwise they can't play them.

yakuza
26 Nov 2008, 12:05
so.... every game they ever had.. they never had that game in order to learn how it works, and to play it until they master it?
they just had it there on the bookshelf, and once in a while they pop it into the cd drive to **** off some people online? maybe cz they need a stress releaver? wtf are you on, stop the crack dude. people play games cz they like to play them and if they like to play them they will want to learn how things work, otherwise they can't play them.
Oh my god...
We should forget about helping newbies in wormnet. It'd be best to focus our efforts in teaching Team17 forum members to read...
The funny bit is that in principle me and CyberShadow are saying the same thing, yes, my ways are not the best and perhaps I take it a bit further. But essentially it's the same. And Cybeshadow is in the front line of all this, he has logs, he knows what's going on, he even has statistics already posted in this thread, and a reasoning behind it. Newbies never had it this easy, yet you insist that there's still people out there who want to learn but we're not putting the necessary means for them. And yet I'm the one smoking crack.
This thread is the best example of why things related to Worms are best discussed outside Team17 official forums...

CyberShadow
26 Nov 2008, 12:10
Lack of interest in learning.
Didn't we go over this already? :-/
Well, I do feel that WormNET would be a better place if people wouldn't demand enumerating rules (and kicking on failure to do so within 5 seconds) or kick newbies that much, and would instead take the time to explain and teach those willing to learn.
so.... every game they ever had.. they never had that game in order to learn how it works, and to play it until they master it?
they just had it there on the bookshelf, and once in a while they pop it into the cd drive to **** off some people online? maybe cz they need a stress releaver? wtf are you on, stop the crack dude. people play games cz they like to play them and if they like to play them they will want to learn how things work, otherwise they can't play them.what

MihaiS
26 Nov 2008, 12:10
This thread is the best example of why things related to Worms are best discussed outside Team17 official forums...
Yes, catfights don't belong here >.>

yakuza
26 Nov 2008, 12:13
Well, I do feel that WormNET would be a better place if people wouldn't demand enumerating rules (and kicking on failure to do so within 5 seconds) or kick newbies that much, and would instead take the time to explain and teach those willing to learn.
I'm sure we all do. But this is a larger scope. We'd have to change the internet.
But really, it's not that bad, you might get the odd kick but people are willing to teach you if you ask nicely.

KRD
26 Nov 2008, 12:19
Question is, why did that happen? Was it their lack of interest in learning, or was it the arrogance of the more experienced players who told them they're a piece of sh!t?
I'd go with lack of interest more than three quarters of the time. :p
I know many people who are the very opposite of the experienced players you describe. It's true many of them are not currently active on WormNet, but some of them are and more return every day. The opportunity to get in contact with them or their writings on the internet is there. As Yakuza says, the climate in the entire community has no doubt improved drastically from the point of view of newbies since the early 00's.
The reason this discussion is even being had is that the demographic profile of internet users has shifted even more drastically. So yes, I think it's the new players that have gotten "worse" and the old ones, despite becoming a lot more tolerant, just find it harder to consider time invested in actively helping them worthwhile. But even so, I'm confident it's this personal approach [not sending newcomers to RTFM], that results in high quality, dedicated players in the long run. The more effort is put into becoming part of the community, the longer they'll stay interested in it. That should be our goal.

MihaiS
26 Nov 2008, 12:24
"Whats done towards cheaters?" the owner of this thread is asking?
Not playing with those you consider to be cheating would be a great first step.

Malevol3nt
26 Nov 2008, 12:27
I won't continue this discussion about newbies, but I've something to say about this quote,
People that download a game will not show the same attitude towards the game as those that bought it. I don't think it takes much imagination to understand the mindset of people that "downloaded some old game to check it out.
Cybershadow, you seem to be mocking people and calling them 'pirates' for downloading a game, even tho you're working for the community to deliver something free (the updates), and yet Team17 still doesn't offer the game for free, but charges money for it. Please don't tell me you're an innocent internet user who's never downloaded a single torrent.
What about deadcode? Would you call him a person with a bad attitude because he hacked WA but then later decided to help out the community? Is he allways going to be judged because of his first actions? I hope not.
Don't judge people by how they aquire this game. MONEY doesn't show how much a person is willing to participate in a community, you should allready know that.

KRD
26 Nov 2008, 12:36
What about deadcode? Would you call him a person with a bad attitude because he hacked WA but then later decided to help out the community? Is he allways going to be judged because of his first actions? I hope not.
Deadcode hacking the game is a sign of [too much] dedication. Acquiring the game illegally is, in the majority of cases, a sign of the opposite. It is not a consequence of being short on money, not at the price Team17 sell it for.

MihaiS
26 Nov 2008, 12:40
When it's not about money, it's about ease. It has less to do with how dedicated you are or not about the game.

KRD
26 Nov 2008, 12:51
Well, the more one is willing to overcome to get something, the more dedicated he will be about it. On average. This applies to more than just software, it's a fact of life. But we might as well drop this topic; the #Help channel, CyberShadow's bot and most oldie players don't discriminate, we only suggest buying the game as a solution to pirated copies not working as they should.

yakuza
26 Nov 2008, 13:19
#AnythingGoes, 5 minutes worth of help seeking results:
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2995/proof4ci6.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7315/proof1zz5.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5012/proof2qp7.jpg
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/1615/proof3xs1.jpg

franpa
26 Nov 2008, 15:47
Cybershadow, don't forget that an amount of 3.6.28.0 users are running win9x and can't run 3.6.29.0.

CyberShadow
26 Nov 2008, 15:50
Yes, because we have so many of those. :rolleyes:

Malevol3nt
27 Nov 2008, 09:14
Deadcode hacking the game is a sign of [too much] dedication. Acquiring the game illegally is, in the majority of cases, a sign of the opposite. It is not a consequence of being short on money, not at the price Team17 sell it for.
In most cases yes. But the game is a decade old and people who've never played it before are unwilling to buy it. It's pretty much like milking the cow for 12 hours, you've got to stop eventually.
I've seen in other old games communities even where a game is still not free, there's often websites with links on where to obtain a copy (where to download it). Maybe that's not a good approach, but in a small community players want more people involved in the game (I'm speaking of multiplayer games of course). And most new people are just not interested into buying something that's so old.
My approach is: try it, if I like it then I buy it. I've no idea if you can play the WA Demo online, but seeing the "This demo IS NOT Win2k/XP compatible" would put anyone off.
Just my 2 cents..

yakuza
27 Nov 2008, 09:27
In most cases yes. But the game is a decade old and people who've never played it before are unwilling to buy it. It's pretty much like milking the cow for 12 hours, you've got to stop eventually.
I've seen in other old games communities even where a game is still not free, there's often websites with links on where to obtain a copy (where to download it). Maybe that's not a good approach, but in a small community players want more people involved in the game (I'm speaking of multiplayer games of course). And most new people are just not interested into buying something that's so old.
These communities are called boats. In said boats live pirates. When the authorities sail near, they take off their skull on a black background flag and put up one that reads "abandonware".

Plasma
27 Nov 2008, 09:57
I've seen in other old games communities even where a game is still not free, there's often websites with links on where to obtain a copy (where to download it). Maybe that's not a good approach, but in a small community players want more people involved in the game (I'm speaking of multiplayer games of course).
Like Yakuza said, thats still illegal. They still get away with it because, in the case of abandonware (where the game is no longer made), the companies don't do anything about it because they're not selling those games anymore.
But W:A is not abandonware, and is still being sold by several publishers.

CyberShadow
27 Nov 2008, 15:51
Uhhh... I think we're done here?

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