Do YOU play W:A without the CD? [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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shadow900
26 Mar 2007, 18:32
I don't, yet. :-/

bonz
26 Mar 2007, 18:36
I do . (http://www.nanacide.com/wahelp/tpp-nocd.php)

Run
26 Mar 2007, 18:40
I do . (http://www.nanacide.com/wahelp/tpp-nocd.php)
http://www.nanacide.com/images/SA_Run/seewhatyoudid.jpg

Alien King
26 Mar 2007, 18:40
No, simply because I'm too lazy to go to the effort to set it up so I don't need to use the CD.

MrBunsy
26 Mar 2007, 19:04
It's far more lazy in the long run to emulate CDs.

Alien King
26 Mar 2007, 19:26
It's far more lazy in the long run to emulate CDs.
Memory is precious to me. That and I'm far too lazy to consider the long run.

boiko
26 Mar 2007, 19:28
can you play online if u dont have the disk but then go through this process?
http://www.nanacide.com/wahelp/tpp-nocd.php

Muzer
26 Mar 2007, 19:31
No-one on this forum will help you unless you go out and buy the disk (If I misunderstood you then sorry). This is just running it without the CD if you already have the CD, but are too lazy to put it in. The CD is really cheap! You can get it from http://secure.team17.com

Plasma
26 Mar 2007, 19:46
can you play online if u dont have the disk but then go through this process?
http://www.nanacide.com/wahelp/tpp-nocd.php
No. You first need the CD to be able to follow that guide. If you do, then yes, you can play online.
Also, it is strictly against forum rules to download W:A without paying for it, and can result in an instant ban!
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

thomasp
26 Mar 2007, 19:57
Also, it is strictly against forum rules to download W:A without paying for it, and can result in an instant ban!
Unless they are foolish enough to part with $20 and be conned into downloading it from Try-and-play-it-onlineMedia

MrBunsy
26 Mar 2007, 20:59
Memory is precious to me. That and I'm far too lazy to consider the long run.
Meh, hard discs are very cheap these days.

Alien King
26 Mar 2007, 23:05
Meh, hard discs are very cheap these days.
Which part of "I'm lazy" hasn't been recognised yet? :p

bonz
26 Mar 2007, 23:16
Which part of "I'm lazy" hasn't been recognised yet? :p
You're not really lazy until you are too lazy to reach down to your CD drive to open it. :rolleyes:

[UFP]Ghost
27 Mar 2007, 00:56
If your lazy enough to argue, your not as lazy as you think you are.

franpa
27 Mar 2007, 01:47
i optimize/maximize my gaming time via not using a cd :)

bonz
27 Mar 2007, 11:29
Ghost;570713']If your lazy enough to argue, your not as lazy as you think you are.
I use the Windows on-screen keyboard to type with my mouse, so I don't even have to reach the keyboard with my left hand.
I can use it to retain my slouchy posture on my desk.

Kaziko
27 Mar 2007, 11:35
Hey, I used to have worms:a on cd, but my son broke it so I just recently bought it from trymedia, online. Everytime I try play online it tells me my version is incompatible. I've looked at updates and patches but it says not to bother as i'm using trymedia version. What can I do to be able to play it online like the good old days?

Kaziko
27 Mar 2007, 11:45
Er forget, I just read another post from someone with the same problem who was told to go get a refund and buy it from elsewhere. If trymedia suck so bad, why does team17 have them linked on there website? Kinda stupid to help another company get money from selling there product when what they sell don't even work :P anyway just ignore this, i'm ranting.

bonz
27 Mar 2007, 11:54
Er forget, I just read another post from someone with the same problem who was told to go get a refund and buy it from elsewhere. If trymedia suck so bad, why does team17 have them linked on there website? Kinda stupid to help another company get money from selling there product when what they sell don't even work :P anyway just ignore this, i'm ranting.
Well, the Trymedia version actually uses the latest official update, but just isn't compatible with the latest beta updates yet.
Once an official patch is released (v4.0 most likely) it'll get sent to Trymedia, who will then probably add it to their version.
Until then you will have a hard time finding anyone online that doesn't use the new betas.
Use this form (http://csc.trymedia.com/csc/refund_request/publisher=team17/contentid=90e9b1d2c4c85ae675f1822345339973/offering=20m_d_uk_p3050b/affiliate=trygames/index.html) to send a refund within 48 hours.
Then use the money and order the CD version from the official T17 shop (https://secure.team17.com/).
They have multi-packs (https://secure.team17.com/browse.html?area=selection&productid=24&platform=PC/MAC) where you can get 2-3 games including shipping for the same price that the single Trymedia version cost you.
(I suggest you get Worms 2 and Worms World Party too for the complete 2D experience.)

MrBunsy
27 Mar 2007, 21:59
Which part of "I'm lazy" hasn't been recognised yet? :p
You can buy things through the internet :p You barely have to move.

M3ntal
28 Mar 2007, 04:27
I play without the CD, in fact the CD has had a crack through it for at least 2 years now.
::Edit::
Haha to you fools who search the forum for "CD crack" and find this post :P.

Glenn
28 Mar 2007, 05:03
I play without the CD.
I have two copies of the game. Both are perfectly fine.
I just don't play with the CD.

DragonQ
29 Mar 2007, 18:12
I use an ISO simply because using a CD results in the game crashing after almost every online round. Oh, and I put the higher quality music from the PSX version into the ISO too, which is nice.

alphamule
30 Mar 2007, 01:36
I got the CD (amazingly little scratches!) at an EZ-Pawn shop last week, and just now installed it on the MS Server 2003 trial. LOL Guess what? It doesn't work. I'll try it without Daemon-tools installed. Does Team17 use blacklists on the 3.5/3.6beta patches? I don't think too so but it could be the problem. I Guess I'll do a search for/post a new thread for Vista/2003 beta testers. :)
Just to be sure it's not my CD, I'll try it on a friend's XP machine and my desktop's Windows 98 disk. I've been wanting to show him this game for a while. If we play it together, we can get one of the multi-game sets from the site? heh
:Goes to troubleshooting threads:

franpa
30 Mar 2007, 02:35
theres no copy protection for this game.

Muzer
30 Mar 2007, 07:20
Well, there used to be but all it actually did was stop you playing on modified CDS and is useless with isos

h2oz7v
30 Mar 2007, 10:18
I use an ISO simply because using a CD results in the game crashing after almost every online round. Oh, and I put the higher quality music from the PSX version into the ISO too, which is nice.
Is anyone still hosting the higher quality sound? Because I'd like to grab them for myself if possible

Koen-ftw
30 Mar 2007, 14:12
Is anyone still hosting the higher quality sound? Because I'd like to grab them for myself if possible
I second this.
To be ontopic: Yes, I play Worms Armageddon without a CD. I have a full size ISO, but I also got W:A to work with a mini-ISO and WKFileOverride so I can put that ISO on an U3 enabled USB key and have a fully functional portable W:A. :)

DragonQ
30 Mar 2007, 14:33
I would host it, but I just don't have the space unfortunately. Even if I turned them all into FLAC (~50% compression, lossless), for others to decode into WAV using Audacity (free feature-rich audio program) it would still be around 300MB :(

Koen-ftw
30 Mar 2007, 15:08
DragonQ, I still have a server with some storage space left on it. If you feel like uploading the FLACs (FLAC for the win!) on there you can give me a shout.

DragonQ
30 Mar 2007, 18:47
Yeah I could mass-FLAC encode them using Audacity and you could put them on your webspace, with simple instructions on how to turn them back into WAVs for an ISO.... I'll PM you tomorrow about arranging it if that's OK with you.
Oh, and as for "FLAC for the win!", I disagree. I've tried 6 different FLAC codecs and none enable FLAC files to play under WMP11 in Vista. A few work in XP, but all make WMP crash when seeking the file. I use WMA Lossless for most things, but Audacity doesn't support that, so...

bonz
30 Mar 2007, 19:18
If you have uploaded the FLAC files somewhere, be sure to contact Squirminator2K or SupSuper to add the stuff to www.dream17.co.uk.
Oh, and as for "FLAC for the win!", I disagree. I've tried 6 different FLAC codecs and none enable FLAC files to play under WMP11 in Vista. A few work in XP, but all make WMP crash when seeking the file. I use WMA Lossless for most things, but Audacity doesn't support that, so...
Well, then dump WMP and use Winamp! :p

MrBunsy
30 Mar 2007, 19:22
Well, then dump WMP and use Winamp! :pHere here!

DragonQ
30 Mar 2007, 19:24
I prefer WMP, I don't want to get into an argument, I just do. And even if I didn't the fact that it doesn't work on probably the most popular media player is a shambles. Plus the fact that all of the codecs that I tried were ADVERTISED as working for WMP (as most codecs should since it's a DirectShow player like most others). I've converted them to FLAC already, but I'm going to play poker now so will sort y'all out tomorrow :)

h2oz7v
30 Mar 2007, 22:11
Cheers, sorry for kinda hijacking this thread :P You could try using APE or OptimFrog for slightly better lossless compression.

franpa
31 Mar 2007, 00:11
have you tried using WMP 6.x ? (latest version of WMP in the 6 series) i use it for watching video's due to the new ones use propriety codecs or atleast for weird reasons desync...
yes i get up to date codecs from http://www.codecguide.com/ and generally update as soon as a new mega pack gets released.

DragonQ
31 Mar 2007, 04:53
Well I've actually decided to just RAR them all up because encoding to FLAC doesn't make it take up much less space than RARing it does, and also it's far less hastle to get the WAVs back out for eveyone else.
Tis 381MB (full compression with the latest WinRAR). Takes around 5 minutes to compress/extract. First simply extract the Data folder from the downloaded RAR file to a temporary folder somewhere. Then, you'll need to make an ISO of your Worms Armageddon CD using Alcohol 52% if you don't already have one. If you already have an ISO of your Worms CD that you use or have just made one, all you have to do is open your Worms ISO using WinRAR and copy the previously extracted Data folder into the ISO. It should go into the Data folder that's already there, overwriting the existing files.
That's it. All done.
*I'm currently just trying to sort out somewhere to host this file, once that's sorted it'll be available :)*
Possible Programs Required: WinRAR (Free - http://www.rarlab.com/download.htm), Alcohol 52% (Free - http://www.free-downloads.net/downloads/Alcohol_52__Free_Edition)
Download: << Not arranged yet >>

franpa
31 Mar 2007, 06:31
what sample rate is this? is it DLBP's? (cant spell -_-) winzip has a compression algorithim designed specificaly for WAV files so that there quality isnt reduced upon packing/unpacking the data.

bonz
31 Mar 2007, 13:06
what sample rate is this? is it DLBP's? (cant spell -_-) winzip has a compression algorithim designed specificaly for WAV files so that there quality isnt reduced upon packing/unpacking the data.
WinRAR and other tools are lossless compression algorithms. The quality never decreases. :rolleyes:
Why do you think he was going to use FLAC in the first place?

alphamule
1 Apr 2007, 00:17
Are you sure it's OK with Team17 to release these (admittedly old) music files? I know it's silly to worry about the copyright when you're just using them on the same game but you know how lawyers suck! ;)

DragonQ
1 Apr 2007, 01:58
Well if I get told to take them down, then of course I will. But, as you say, they're already in the game, and I'll upload them until/unless I get told I can't :)
Since it'll take a long time to upload the files I am going to try to upload the big RAR file later this morning (I'm in the UK). As long as my internet connection doesn't explode or anything they should be done by late morning.

DragonQ
1 Apr 2007, 04:05
Well it seems the server I'm using doesn't like large files as it keeps resetting every 15 or so minutes. So, I will upload the individual files as FLACs and then we'll post a small guide on how to convert them back to WAVs (thanks Koen-ftw for writing this guide and providing the server!) and then inject them into an ISO.

franpa
1 Apr 2007, 05:03
WinRAR and other tools are lossless compression algorithms. The quality never decreases. :rolleyes:
Why do you think he was going to use FLAC in the first place?
is the algorithm they used aimed at WAVE files? or general data?

DragonQ
1 Apr 2007, 05:12
Just general data - the reason FLAC can compress WAV files more than RAR/ZIP is because it was specifically designed for audio. For example, for these files:
WAV = 630MB
ZIP = 600MB
RAR = 380MB
FLAC = 280MB

franpa
1 Apr 2007, 10:07
winzip 11 does have a algorythim aimed at audio tho =\ ah well, what sample/bit rate is the audio?

bonz
1 Apr 2007, 11:28
what sample/bit rate is the audio?
IIRC, it's CD quality.
My wave files have 44kHz sample rate and 1411kbps bit rate.

DragonQ
1 Apr 2007, 16:04
Yeah, it's 44.1kHz and 16-Bit - I believe the originals are 22kHz and 16-Bit but I don't know because my CD is buried somewhere among my Uni stuff.

kikumbob
2 Apr 2007, 11:33
Just general data - the reason FLAC can compress WAV files more than RAR/ZIP is because it was specifically designed for audio. For example, for these files:
WAV = 630MB
ZIP = 600MB
RAR = 380MB
FLAC = 280MB Why in the world is winzip so rubbish compared to the other two??

DragonQ
2 Apr 2007, 12:18
No idea, maybe there was some other settings that could have been played with but I just opened WinRAR, chose "ZIP" format, selected "Best" compression and started it. Maybe if you use WinZip it'd be smaller though.

CyberShadow
2 Apr 2007, 12:44
By default, WinZIP is using PKZIP compression, which is one of the first widely-used compression algorithms. Hence, to preserve backwards-compatibility, it still uses that old method, while WinRAR's algorithms have evolved and became non-backwards-compatible. The latter versions of WinZIP, however, have support for LZMA compression as well - but if you're looking for a serious compression program, get 7-zip - it's free, it's already using LZMA and the format is much more popular than ZIP's new (private) format (the latest versions of WinRAR, for example, can decompress 7-zip archives).
Also, I'd be interested in seeing how 7-zip compares in the above test :)

DragonQ
2 Apr 2007, 13:05
Well the reason I use WinRAR is because it opens everything I throw at it - AFAIK it does everything WinZIP does, plus WinRAR's own formats which are fairly popular, plus ISOs which is useful when you just want a file from an ISO instead of mounting it in a virtual drive to install the software etc.
Anyway, 7-Zip compression: 470MB

Lex
2 Apr 2007, 13:35
Anyway, 7-Zip compression: 470MBWhich compression level setting was that?: Store, Fastest, Fast, Normal, Maximum, Ultra
You used the LZMA compression method, too?

DragonQ
2 Apr 2007, 14:22
I didn't see any options for compression level when I did it, but I chose LZMA....either way it doesn't really matter since the whole process of uploading the files has been so disastrous that I'm not doing it again. The RAR pack is on 85% lol, and Koen-ftw is uploading FLAC versions (we're not sure if both of our sources are the same yet, we'll compare before providing a link to what is the best set after discussion).

Koen-ftw
2 Apr 2007, 14:30
Koen-ftw
Please, please, my name is Koen! Koen-ftw just sounds lame, but 'Koen' was already taken as a username.

DragonQ
2 Apr 2007, 14:34
lol sorry, I just quote usernames unless I know someone's name...

Lex
2 Apr 2007, 14:56
I didn't see any options for compression level when I did itWhat? Check again, then, and see what it says, please.

DragonQ
2 Apr 2007, 15:19
Well it took 6 minutes (maximum compression with WinRAR was 5 minutes), so either it was on maximum, or it's a lot slower than WinRAR....
*tries again*
Well it turns out it's just far slower - but even at maximum compression the size is 515MB, and it took 13 minutes to compress :O. Not terribly impressed...

CyberShadow
2 Apr 2007, 16:22
I guess WinRAR's optimization for wave files (an option enabled by default) actually works.
7-zip usually beats WinRAR when compressing more casual data. It's also free and open-source, unlike WinRAR and WinZIP.

franpa
3 Apr 2007, 00:03
so where did you originally get these audio files from? did you personally rip them yourself?

DragonQ
3 Apr 2007, 03:19
No, they were hosted by someone else a few months ago for a brief period.
The samples I use are uploaded, as are Koen's rips, but we just need to sort out which one is better, or if they sound the same.

franpa
3 Apr 2007, 03:54
ah so you have DLPB's rip's from the ps1? then i have no need for these as i already have them :)

DragonQ
3 Apr 2007, 04:02
Yeah that's them - the PS1 version of the game featured higher quality audio, presumably because it had more space due to having less voicebanks?? I can't think of anything else that takes up a lot of space that would mean it would fit on the PS1's CD and not the PC one.

Koen-ftw
3 Apr 2007, 04:22
The PSX audio isn't in PCM WAV format but in .XA, so it's already very compressed. On the PSX disc the audio takes 200mb, but when converted to PCM WAV it will take 700mb.

DragonQ
3 Apr 2007, 04:28
Hmmm...all of this would be unnecessary if Team17 had just built in MP3 support for the game. Oh well.

franpa
3 Apr 2007, 04:36
its the data structure for a ps1 disc, you cant change audio from *.xa
altho im not that smart on the structure of ps1 discs.

Koen-ftw
3 Apr 2007, 04:46
its the data structure for a ps1 disc, you cant change audio from *.xa
altho im not that smart on the structure of ps1 discs.
Indeed you can't. But you can convert it, here's how I did it:
The first step was to convert the *.XA files to PCM WAV, which I did using Foobar with the foo_adpcm dll. After that I changed the sample rate (from 37800Hz to 44100Hz so that there are less troubles with for instance encoding to FLAC) using Adobe Audition 1.5. There should be no quality loss. I also cut off the several minutes of blank audio at the end of the files.

MrBunsy
3 Apr 2007, 08:52
Hmmm...all of this would be unnecessary if Team17 had just built in MP3 support for the game. Oh well.
I didn't think that sort of thing was common that long ago though.

franpa
3 Apr 2007, 10:58
Indeed you can't. But you can convert it, here's how I did it:
The first step was to convert the *.XA files to PCM WAV, which I did using Foobar with the foo_adpcm dll. After that I changed the sample rate (from 37800Hz to 44100Hz so that there are less troubles with for instance encoding to FLAC) using Adobe Audition 1.5. There should be no quality loss. I also cut off the several minutes of blank audio at the end of the files.
up sampling always results in a quality loss, else you wouldn't be able to up sample :)
did you just use microsoft sound recorder or a wave recorder and just monitor your sound output and make your waves that way o_O?

Koen-ftw
3 Apr 2007, 11:13
did you just use microsoft sound recorder or a wave recorder and just monitor your sound output and make your waves that way o_O?
You quote my full method yet still you ask me how I did it? I already told everything.
Also:
up sampling always results in a quality loss, else you wouldn't be able to up sample :)
Some research me and Lex did, as well as asking the question on several forums, gave me the idea that I can upsample the audio files as long as I use a good algorithm.

franpa
4 Apr 2007, 02:00
upsampling = adding data, adding random data = quality loss.
sorry wasnt paying much attention with that quote -_-

CyberShadow
4 Apr 2007, 02:41
upsampling = adding data, adding random data = quality loss.
sorry wasnt paying much attention with that quote -_-
That concept is flawed from the root. If you resize an image to twice its original size (50x50 -> 100x100) with any of the nearest neighbor, bilinear or bicubic resampling algorithms, every 4th pixel will still be the same as the original image - and you can shrink (downsample) it back and get the original image.
Of course, when scaling image or audio data by amounts that aren't multiples of the original size, the data will have to be re-encoded. However, the added data is by far not random - on the contrary, it represents carefully interpolated data which would fill the gap between the points of the original data that were "stretched" apart while resizing. Some data loss can occur, depending on the quality of the resampling argorithms, and the exact methods of how the digital data is decoded into a continous wave-form analog stream, but the effects are in most cases negligeble and are uncomparable to the quality loss which occurs when data is downsampled.

franpa
4 Apr 2007, 06:18
ok :)

b33p
9 Apr 2007, 21:55
http://www.nanacide.com/images/SA_Run/seewhatyoudid.jpg
rofl :D nice.

Dando
9 Apr 2007, 23:01
Yes. And when I did the psx to mp3 I did it in a very good way. I converted with psound and upsampled at highest quality with adobe audition. You will not hear any difference between my MP3's and the PSX versions in XA, because I did it right and because the human ear sucks.:p
Upsampling should result in virtually the same quality as what the sample was, it is down sampling that results in loss.
MP3 Joint stereo at 224-320 kbit/s is good enough for most stuff. I tested alot, and i see no problems.
The XA format is a proprietary algorithm and as such they had leverage and so encoced most at a higher sample rate (37500 if i remember?, it is in the readme i made). The PC ones drop as low as 16000 Hz as uncompressed wav's. Which is why they sound turd.
However, going from my mp3 to flac is not the greatest idea, since you have had to convert MP3-wav-flac resulting in loss
You should get the orginal PSX disc and rip them to wav then upsample to 44100 and then put them in flac, or just put them as flac without the upsample.
There must be a degree of loss when converting XA-WAV-MP3-WAV-FLAC which is the entire process you have undertaken after I had gone from XA-WAV-MP3
If koen has gone from the disc to wav to flac then thats cool:) i am not sure if there is any reason why his way would be better or worse than using psound. Since my way is already as MP3, if you wish to make OGG out of the PSX music (or do any editing or encoding), use koens flacs:)
In hindsight I should have also used flac, but mine was simply to listen to as an OST and nothing more.
P.S a better way to ship the music would be to ship the XA files as themselves and have a tutorial on decoding and editing them. End of the day, koen has already done it ina suitable way and I hope ogg or soemthing else is put into place for WA PC. (would flac be allowed for PC WA? You can certainly play the files in flac format witha flac decoder)
Phew, that is all!

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