Limited online gametypes, WHY! Have the years of WA/WWP just not happened?! [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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BadKarm4
10 Sep 2007, 04:06
Seriously, play WA/WWP online for a day and you know that shoppers and propers are where the fun is at, yet the devs still refuse to acknowledge them! Ofcourse with a friends code, a custom scheme and map and your away, but what if you've got no friends, you can't search for a shoppa/propa!
Sad...

Cyclaws
10 Sep 2007, 05:01
Then play WA/WWP.

MtlAngelus
10 Sep 2007, 06:18
Then play WA/WWP.
Lol. ***t. :p

BadKarm4
10 Sep 2007, 17:51
Then play WA/WWP.
Actually, I'll play neither, I used to play WA/WWP alot in the day and might have considered buying and playing WOW2 had it been more fanbase orientated, however it isn't...
And to be fair, that sort of ignorance only helps the monopolies, letting them churn out titles without criticism, try being a little more constructive, and think outside the box.
Lol. ***t. :p
I asked/made a reasonable question/statement, and recieved a less than reasonable response, he only made himself look bad... :p
Personally I think it's ok catering for the mainstream, but it's only good business sense to remember the hardcore fans, (and sad to simple forgot them).

Cyclaws
10 Sep 2007, 17:55
he only made himself look bad... :p
Not really, my point was perfectly valid. If you like Shopper schemes, then play the game where they are mostly played. Otherwise you'll just have to get some friend codes in your list so that you can agree between yourselves to play that scheme.

Squirminator2k
10 Sep 2007, 17:58
The fact of the matter is that casual gamers aren't going to have a clue a) what a Roper/Proper/Shoppa is, and b) What to do when they get in one. There's no lobby for the DS version and the PSP version doesn't let you name your games when you host them, so newbies, casual gamers and young'ns aren't going to know what the point of such a game is. I'm sure you'd get more frustrated hosting a Roper to find someone coming into your game and not having a clue what to do.

RatScabies
11 Sep 2007, 05:02
If I understood his post correctly, I think he was asking why they didn't include it as a custom game mode a la forts. Personally, I'm glad that they didn't. Shoppers degenerate Worms from turn based strategy into the "ninja rope game". You have no idea how obnoxious it is to try and use Wormnet, for WA or WWP, only to find people interested in shoppers and nothing else. Anyone that found WA/WWP in a bargain bin and tried to play online would be totally lost and probably ridiculed. Not fun. WOW:2 just came out, but once it's an old title I'd be glad to not find the online game overrun with elitist shoppers. Don't get me wrong, I like shoppers, but I also like using all of the weapons, not just the ninja rope.
The friend code system is perfect. That way people that want to drool over each others ninja rope skills can play each other privately and Worms might actually open up to people of all skill levels. I think quite often "hardcore" fans actually ruin a game by destroying the casual element that will attract curious or occasional gamers.
I also think that that video game publishers, any video game publisher, are probably the furthest thing from a monopoly that can exist in the market. The closest thin we had was Nintendo, back in the 80's, but even then Atari and Sega were still around.

OldSchooly
11 Sep 2007, 20:52
If I understood his post correctly, I think he was asking why they didn't include it as a custom game mode a la forts. Personally, I'm glad that they didn't. Shoppers degenerate Worms from turn based strategy into the "ninja rope game". You have no idea how obnoxious it is to try and use Wormnet, for WA or WWP, only to find people interested in shoppers and nothing else. Anyone that found WA/WWP in a bargain bin and tried to play online would be totally lost and probably ridiculed. Not fun. WOW:2 just came out, but once it's an old title I'd be glad to not find the online game overrun with elitist shoppers. Don't get me wrong, I like shoppers, but I also like using all of the weapons, not just the ninja rope.
The friend code system is perfect. That way people that want to drool over each others ninja rope skills can play each other privately and Worms might actually open up to people of all skill levels. I think quite often "hardcore" fans actually ruin a game by destroying the casual element that will attract curious or occasional gamers.
this is one of the most coherent thoughts posted on a msg board i've seen in quite a while.
i too have been around since worms2 and later the wwp days. but i actually stopped playing for a while because the online community got so compartmentalized. i love the fact that this is a back to basics worms.
sure, i'll eventually yearn for the customization that wa and wwp offered. but if i need it (and not an amazing portable port of the game-which this is, very amazing in that it's a worthwhile portable version) then i will reinstall it and play it.
just my thought on the subject.

yakuza
11 Sep 2007, 21:54
I see lots of ignorance and stereotyping concerning shoppers and WA/WWP wormnet stereotypes, please do stick to what you know instead of making inaccurate posts and confusing the audiences.
Don't get me wrong, I like shoppers, but I also like using all of the weapons, not just the ninja rope.
Comments like the quoted above are so stupid and ignorant it isn't really helping. Roping plays a very secondary role in the shopper scheme, you probably have no idea because you're one of these called, casual gamers.
I see no positive reason to explain why custom schemes are not allowed online. I don't really understand the point about casual gamers, surely they won't have a clue, but would this affect anything at all? Would it affect the sales? Or are team17 more fond of casual gamers now that people who dedicate time to being worms fans and actually learning the game in depth? Or is the solution hard to implement? Say a lobby for casual gamers/newbies and another for more advance gamestyles? It doesn't make any sense for me.

Collo2
11 Sep 2007, 22:00
I don't know how it is on the PSP, but for Nintendo DS it's because of limitations offered by Nintendo that we are not allowed to have custom schemes online between strangers. Players who have exchanged friend codes can use their own custom schemes no problem.
Hope this helps!?

Squirminator2k
11 Sep 2007, 22:08
I see lots of ignorance and stereotyping concerning shoppers and WA/WWP wormnet stereotypes, please do stick to what you know instead of making inaccurate posts and confusing the audiences.
The sad thing about that stereotype is that more often than not your average Shoppa/Roper player is the sort of person logged into #AG shouting "sum1 hots a shoopa ololol". It happens. I've seen it. I've sat in #AG and watched, waiting for someone able to type a coherent sentence, offering me the prospect of an intelligent opponent.
And when I host a game, more often than not someone I don't know will join and one of two thigns happens: they either simply say "Shoppa?" and, when I say no, they leave; or they say "maek shoppa plz" over and over and over again until I kick them. It's lamentable.
I'm aware that not all Shoppa/Roper enthusiasts fall into that stereotype, but I don't think it would be far off to say that most of them do. I apologise if this seems somehow offensive but from personal experience it's largely factual as well.

yakuza
11 Sep 2007, 22:12
Yes Squirminator, I'm aware, but there's also people who do the same thing for fullwormage, intermediate, etc, maybe to a lower extent, but I don't see anyone complaining. It's the bad publicity that sometimes gets out of hand, and whilst I can see your opinion has fundaments, it still may lead people to believe that anything with a rope in is bad, and therefore stand against this change.
I don't see overcoming the spammers and annoying shoppa-kind-of-people as a problem, at least not in the scale that not having the posibility to play custom schemes online is, a big drawback if you ask me.
I know intermediate people think they feel they have more of a right to popularize their scheme, because it's the default way of playing worms, however I feel as annoyed by those who spam the channel with comments such as:
"NO ONE PLAYS NORMAL?"
"WHY IS IT SO HARD TO FIND AN INTERMEDIATE GAME?"
Nevermind the monthly post on the subject in either the WA or WWP forums.
Thing is, WA, or W2 to be more accurate, started with these intermediate scheme, and you can't say that evolving to a Shoppistic community is something bad, after all, people had the choice and decided to play that which they enjoy most. The general shopper public might not be the most mature, not the kind of people to register in a forum to debate why they like it (hence there rarely is someone to defend shopper on this place against the attacks from the intermediate crew), but they're the worms community after all.

Squirminator2k
11 Sep 2007, 22:24
The reason the Roper/Shoppa thign is more prolific. People spamming "sum1 hoost shoopa" happens more often than "WHY NO NORMAL?", you have to concede that. I won't say it doesn't happen, because it does, but it's nowhere as bad.
I have no objection to people playing a gametype they enjoy. I just wish that these people would calm the f**k down when they want a game hosted. That goes for all camps.

AndrewTaylor
11 Sep 2007, 23:20
My experience is that virtually everyone on Wormnet who I didn't specifically arrange to meet there exists purely to ruin my day. Ropers and Shopper enthusiasts are more the worst, but I've only very rarely met someone on Wormnet and liked them.

RatScabies
12 Sep 2007, 01:59
Comments like the quoted above are so stupid and ignorant it isn't really helping. Roping plays a very secondary role in the shopper scheme, you probably have no idea because you're one of these called, casual gamers.
I'd like you to explain to me how roping plays a "very secondary role" in a shopping match. The entire game is played from the ninja rope, and many people use custom maps for better roping. The fact is, if you can't rope, you can't play a shopper. What's the "primary" role, being able to say "WTF KTC noob"? I understand that it's not as demanding as a roper, but that doesn't mean that it still isn't the focus of the game. I wasn't implying that that you don't use any other weapons, just that you're often limited to just those that can be used from a rope.
Like I said, I think shopping can be fun occasionally, but when you think about it, it strips worms of most of it's strategic elements. I have plenty of other games (FPS, etc.) that I could play if I wanted a skill based game; I like worms because it is a turn based strategy game that also requires skill. It's not that I'm a casual gamer, or ignorant, or any other nonsense you spew at people. I've been playing worms since Worms2, and have played almost every single worms game they've made (even the SNES one). I played worms before there was such a thing as shopping, and have watched it rise within the community during the WA days. That being said, I think worms is a full featured masterpiece, and shopping degenerates it into a silly, but fun, minigame. I like playing crazycrates occasionally, but I wouldn't want to only play crazycrates and nothing else.
As previously mentioned, shoppers are pretty rabid online, and I'm glad that this has been contained for the portables. How exactly have they done fans a disservice? You seem to be implying that shoppers are the "real" fans, and their wants should have been prioritized. I consider myself a huge fan, and I think they did an amazing job given the format limitations, and have created a game than can appeal to the most people.

Wormetti
12 Sep 2007, 06:16
I don't know how it is on the PSP, but for Nintendo DS it's because of limitations offered by Nintendo that we are not allowed to have custom schemes online between strangers. Players who have exchanged friend codes can use their own custom schemes no problem.
Hope this helps!?
Surely a custom scheme can have nothing offensive and should be fine between strangers. It's only a custom landscape/flag and scheme/team names that could have profanity. Nintendo allows custom settings (player limit, game type) and a scheme is nothing more than some custom settings.
I found it amusing that the PSP version censors the word Shopper, it gets changed to Sxxpper since the profanity filter has something against street walkers and Santa's laugh :)

Squirminator2k
12 Sep 2007, 06:18
Surely a custom scheme can have nothing offensive and should be fine between strangers. It's only a custom landscape/flag and scheme/team names that could have profanity. Nintendo allows custom settings (player limit, scheme type) and a scheme is nothing more than some custom settings.
It's also Nintendo who set the rules, and they set the "No custom schemes" rule. Take it up with them.

yakuza
12 Sep 2007, 10:28
I'd like you to explain to me how roping plays a "very secondary role" in a shopping match. The entire game is played from the ninja rope, and many people use custom maps for better roping. The fact is, if you can't rope, you can't play a shopper. What's the "primary" role, being able to say "WTF KTC noob"? I understand that it's not as demanding as a roper, but that doesn't mean that it still isn't the focus of the game. I wasn't implying that that you don't use any other weapons, just that you're often limited to just those that can be used from a rope.
Like I said, I think shopping can be fun occasionally, but when you think about it, it strips worms of most of it's strategic elements. I have plenty of other games (FPS, etc.) that I could play if I wanted a skill based game; I like worms because it is a turn based strategy game that also requires skill. It's not that I'm a casual gamer, or ignorant, or any other nonsense you spew at people. I've been playing worms since Worms2, and have played almost every single worms game they've made (even the SNES one). I played worms before there was such a thing as shopping, and have watched it rise within the community during the WA days. That being said, I think worms is a full featured masterpiece, and shopping degenerates it into a silly, but fun, minigame. I like playing crazycrates occasionally, but I wouldn't want to only play crazycrates and nothing else.
As previously mentioned, shoppers are pretty rabid online, and I'm glad that this has been contained for the portables. How exactly have they done fans a disservice? You seem to be implying that shoppers are the "real" fans, and their wants should have been prioritized. I consider myself a huge fan, and I think they did an amazing job given the format limitations, and have created a game than can appeal to the most people.
I guess you've never played a real shopper then. If you say there's no strategy you obviously don't know what you're talking about, I guess you've just joined random #AG shoppers with a bunch of newbs, I suggest you state the difference between doing that and actually playing a shopper game properly, don't generalize... There's piling, hiding and doing the best use of the weapons you have, not just throwing whatever you get at someone, surely you can play shopper with no tactical skills, but you'd get destroyed against one who does have these tactical mind.
They've done fans a disservice because if your claims are true, that most fans play shoppers then most worms fans are shopper fans. Simple.
Would you say the team17 scheme is a silly but fun minigame? Or RR? Or BnG?

AndrewTaylor
12 Sep 2007, 11:38
Surely a custom scheme can have nothing offensive and should be fine between strangers. It's only a custom landscape/flag and scheme/team names that could have profanity. Nintendo allows custom settings (player limit, game type) and a scheme is nothing more than some custom settings.
It's nothing to do with profanity -- I assume it's there so that new players don't find themselves is strange games with unfamiliar rules and get put off.

JammyAH
12 Sep 2007, 13:10
I have the DS version.
That out the way, I enjoy whatever the game decides to throw at me in a random game. I think the main reason for this topic has been covered, with the DS online "no sharing custom content" rule. So I'll just give my thoughts (Few and fair between, but they're there, dammit!)
I found the shopping scheme to be an interesting game. The idea being you have no clue what you'll get each turn, if anything. Want a bazooka? Tough, you got a land mine. You need to think faster, and be prepared to use weapons you normally wouldn't go near. One game you might get a Holy Hand Grenade in your first crate, and in the next, you might get a prod. Failling that, you can always blowtorch your opponenets face into the wall.
In friends matches, I usually go for whatever they pick. If neither of us chooses anything, then it seems to be an unspoken rule that we'll choose intermediate before the time runs out. I like this scheme as well, as has already been said, its a great default.
Unfourtunatly/fourtunatly (which ever way you look at it!) I only really played worms online a lot with 3D, and Mayhem. The only online capable game I had before that was WWP, and I didn't play online much. So I have missed all the Shopper crazed machines afore mentioned, as well as the "Normal, or else!" generation. So no comment from me on the actual people who play :D
So, as a final point from me on the schemes themselves, I enjoy them all, but would not like to play any of them over and over, until the end of time. I would get bored. I would miss out on other things that the game has to offer. I like trying all the different things, giving myself variety. Like the people who play the same map over and over on an FPS, BF players among you will know the bane of the dreaded "24/7" servers...
I hope this has contributed in some way, and has not been a waste of our time. (If it is, you lot get the better break. Despite it being 1pm I'm rather tired, and the writing time on this post would far out weigh the reading time!)

Darkspark
12 Sep 2007, 19:54
It's also Nintendo who set the rules, and they set the "No custom schemes" rule. Take it up with them.
If somebody puts their main name as a swear and manages to get themselves in the leaderboards, will they be removed? it seems stupid that they can have their name in large capitals saying "****" but not have their TINY worms names displayed.

RatScabies
13 Sep 2007, 11:21
If you say there's no strategy you obviously don't know what you're talking about...
They've done fans a disservice because if your claims are true, that most fans play shoppers then most worms fans are shopper fans. Simple....
Would you say the team17 scheme is a silly but fun minigame? Or RR? Or BnG?...
I'll respond in three parts, even though I think this is getting pretty pointless. You should really stop trying to "guess" my worms experience because you make a bad psychic. Oh well.
1. I never said that shoppers have no strategy, only that it "strips worms of most of its' strategic elements". To play a standard game of worms you actually have to make branching decisions about how you want to accomplish winning based on the circumstances. This isn't true for shoppers, where every strategy (pick up crate, rope knock if possible, attack, retreat) is pretty much the same for every player every turn. In other words, shoppers leave little room for making decisions. You could easily write an algorithm for playing shoppers that could potentially generate a great player if they were skilled enough. Try doing the same for the standard game, and you'll understand why it's far more complex - thus requiring more thinking and strategy.
2. Personally, I don't think that shoppers are the majority of worms fans. They certainly seem to be the majority on Wormnet, but this doesn't mean much considering there's not that many people on Wormnet anymore. I don't think a prerequisite of being a fan is that you have to be currently playing worms online. I mean, I'm a fan of Tom Waits, but I haven't listened to one of his albums in while. I'm not somehow excommunicated as a fan because I decided to listen to other things, right? A more functional description of "fan" would be someone who might see a new worms game out at the store and say to themselves "worms?, I loved that game!" - and pick it up, or at least want to pick it up. In this sense, they gave the majority of their fans exactly what they wanted, and also created a game that could generate some new fans as well.
3. I think all of worms is silly. It's a funny game. I just think that shoppers are extra silly. It's the name actually. "Shoppa" just sounds silly to me. Sorry if it offends you. It's not really an insult. And yes, I think that RR and BNG are essentially minigames, compared to full featured worms; they are really just rope and target practice with other people involved, not that that's a bad thing.

yakuza
13 Sep 2007, 11:53
1. I never said that shoppers have no strategy, only that it "strips worms of most of its' strategic elements". To play a standard game of worms you actually have to make branching decisions about how you want to accomplish winning based on the circumstances. This isn't true for shoppers, where every strategy (pick up crate, rope knock if possible, attack, retreat) is pretty much the same for every player every turn. In other words, shoppers leave little room for making decisions. You could easily write an algorithm for playing shoppers that could potentially generate a great player if they were skilled enough. Try doing the same for the standard game, and you'll understand why it's far more complex - thus requiring more thinking and strategy.
I explained you why this isn't the case yet you come back with the same naive comments. Any experienced worms player will tell you the same, shopper might be a easy game to pick up but by no means does it strop worms of it'smost strategic elements, you are very naive if you think this way. The comment on bold just ilustrates your ignorance and I don't want to come out harsh. To ilustrate you with an example, imagine you get a nade, following your game logic, you'd just rope to it, get the crate containing a nade and attack whoever is closer for a 45 damage, this would be a very bad move, as any good player with a grenade in their possesion can potentialy kill a worm, do over 50 damage, pile a couple of worms or launch his enemy to a position (like a barrel) were he can finish him off next turn making use of turn advantage, after that, said pro player would pile depending on the health of the worms remaining in the game, would attempt a block, a knock, or have his worm covered. And this is all assuming you know what you're getting in the crate, it gets much more tactic when you get something unexpected and have to adapt your strategy to it. I do not only consider myself a competent shopper but also a very experienced Elite player, so please do not recomment me to try a default scheme to be able to compare, my comparison is already accurate and it's you who is showing a lack of clue. Also remember an algorythm to play default games already exist, it isn't flawless but I can assure you that if an algorythm for shopper was to exist it would be as easy to fool as the default one, thus I doubt said algorithm would make a "succesful shopper player". If my speech isn't working I challenge you to a best of 3 shopper game and maybe you will be able to understand were I'm coming from when you finally see someone who actually knows what he's doing in the scheme.
2. Personally, I don't think that shoppers are the majority of worms fans. They certainly seem to be the majority on Wormnet, but this doesn't mean much considering there's not that many people on Wormnet anymore. I don't think a prerequisite of being a fan is that you have to be currently playing worms online. I mean, I'm a fan of Tom Waits, but I haven't listened to one of his albums in while. I'm not somehow excommunicated as a fan because I decided to listen to other things, right? A more functional description of "fan" would be someone who might see a new worms game out at the store and say to themselves "worms?, I loved that game!" - and pick it up, or at least want to pick it up. In this sense, they gave the majority of their fans exactly what they wanted, and also created a game that could generate some new fans as well.
It doesn't matter if the majority of wormers are not fans of shoppers, if the majority of wormnet is then it's more relevant as this discussion is about the online aspect of the game and not the single player missions or the private parties.
3. I think all of worms is silly. It's a funny game. I just think that shoppers are extra silly. It's the name actually. "Shoppa" just sounds silly to me. Sorry if it offends you. It's not really an insult. And yes, I think that RR and BNG are essentially minigames, compared to full featured worms; they are really just rope and target practice with other people involved, not that that's a bad thing.
The scheme is called Shopper, not Shoppa, and Team17 are the authors of the name. RR and BnG are by no means minigames, they're a big part of worms and are on the same level of intermediate. Not only are they more worthy in a competition than intermediate mainly because the luck factor is less present but they also require more time put into them to become good, on the same level of Elite I'd say, but you're trying to help your case using intermediate as an example, a very accesible schemes by all publics.
Popular opinion thinks of Shopper as a stupid scheme that only newbs play, and that's essentialy what those newbs do, they play the shopper scheme stupidly and act like newbs, but that's not what the scheme is about, it has much more depth and if you don't have a tactical brain and good strategy at it as well as skill with all the weapons you'll get crushed by an experienced player in the right scenario, that is, a proper random cave shopper map and a balanced scheme. Knowing how to use a weapon is not enough, you have to be able to make the best use of said weapon every turn, whilst having only one target most of the time (if your opponent is competent enough to pile) and having to constantly adapt your plans to what the crate god offers you.

RatScabies
14 Sep 2007, 03:45
I'm confused as to what exactly you are trying to prove? I have no doubt that you're an amazing shopper that can wipe the floor with noobs, blah, blah, blah, but that's not what I'm trying to get at. I admitted, from the beginning, that shoppers require some strategy; my argument is that they are far less strategic than a standard game of worms. If you're going to argue with me, argue that point, because you're just rambling on and on about the few strategic elements shoppers have.
You've totally missed the point of mentioning an algorithm, by the way. I don't mean game AI, I mean a step by step plan to solving a problem. The algorithm is for a human player, not a computer one. The example algorithm I provided is simple, but that's because I don't want to spend all day, online, writing an algorithm for a shopper. It sums up the basic strategy of the game, but doesn't get into advanced operations, like explaining how all of the weapons work, etc.. Needless to say, if you were to do the same, fully, for the standard game, you'd have a much more complex beast on your hands that made a shopper look simple by comparison. This isn't really a point that can be argued, so , again, I don't really see what you're getting at.
Plenty of people playing a worms game for the first time around are going to want to play the game online. I'd argue that the online mode is just as much for them as anyone. Besides, it's nice to actually get to play with all of the toys that Team17 spent a lot of hard work developing.
Who said anything about intermediate? You brought that up, not me. I said "full featured" worms, meaning a deathmatch game where you have the standard set of weapons and utilities available to you in varying quantities, and you can move and fire normally, sudden death is on, etc.. If you're trying to claim that RR, BNG, etc. are, individually, just as big as this standard way of playing, well I'd have to disagree. Neither of us will ever be able to prove our speculation, of course, but it would appear that this standard way of playing is what Team17 seems to prefer as "worms", and I'm glad it's so.
Oh well, unless you actually make a valid point, I guess this will be my last post on the subject.

yakuza
14 Sep 2007, 10:37
Well, I can't go on if you don't even clarify what a normal game is for you, you've said it ain't intermediate and then you come up saying normal is a "deathmatch game featuring the normal set of weapons", which scheme is this may I ask? Worms1 scheme? Worms United scheme? Are you talking about the deathmatch scheme? Since when did this become the general scheme? I've never seen one person play this scheme online, ever, in 8 years.
And you claim this scheme is bigger than BnG and RR, just because I dunno, "it's oldschool"? Or, it's how team17 wanted us to play worms? You know BnG existed pre WA/WWP, in W2, and it was an official league channel when WA launched? So tell me, what's more standard? Also the deathmatch scheme you talk about is not a very demanding scheme, never mind as strategic as you claim, it has serious balance issues and it doesn't come close to the skill needed for shopper never mind Elite, the superior "Normal" scheme, that was also a ranked channel back in the day and has been slightly tweaked by the community to remove the luck factor, like BnG, so, don't even think about putting BnG down for a second time just because you're ignorant to it's roots.
Fact remains, I've never played a Deathmatch scheme game in wormnet ever, and if I was to play my first game online I'd still probably win, however, if I someone was to play a shopper for the first time they'd totally lose, because shopper has it's way of playing, it's set of tactics and the scheme you mentioned can't compete with it's popularity, depth, community support et al.
If your only argument is the fact worms have more weapons therefore more options and that the scheme was invented by team17 and claim that's the way they want us to play the game then I'm sorry but you've lost this game. You clearly aren't on the same level as I am regarding this game, and while it might seem as I'm being an arrogant moron you just cannot argue with the strategy needed or shopper because you just don't know it, you play deathmatch for god's sake, I'm sorry, it's understandable you wrongly believe that any scheme containing ropes doesn't require strategy but now you've gone too far, and are totally wrong, even if you'll never realize.

Wormetti
14 Sep 2007, 12:07
With just the attack from rope rule, you have halved the number of possible moves you can make in a turn. With a BnG scheme, you only have 2 weapons and you can't move at all, so there is even less you can do per turn. The less you can do, the less there is to think about. That doesn't mean there is no strategy or that it's not fun or that it doesn't need other skills, it just means it's less strategic than a balanced scheme with more choices.

yakuza
14 Sep 2007, 12:21
With just the attack from rope rule, you have halved the number of possible moves you can make in a turn. With a BnG scheme, you only have 2 weapons and you can't move at all, so there is even less you can do per turn. The less you can do, the less there is to think about. That doesn't mean there is no strategy or that it's not fun or that it doesn't need other skills, it just means it's less strategic than a balanced scheme with more choices.
That's a very simple way of putting things, and not accurate. Sure there's very little strategy in BnG but that's not what we're arguing, as far as BnG is concerned we we're only debating the "importance" of the scheme compared to other schemes, as the guy was implying BnG was a "minigame".
Also, attack from rope is not a mandatory Shopper rule so there you go. Also, the fact that you have a set of weapons that's always the same in a scheme such as deathmatch means you can only improvise with that you have, whilst in Shopper you have to adapt to what you get, I don't want to argue what's more strategy though, having a choice in tactics or having to adapt your tactics to a set of choices that change every turn.
If we're going to be this simple though, would you argue team17 is also less strategic than the deathmatch scheme? You people have some sort of fetish with ground moving worms and think that implies a more regular playstyle which involves more strategy, that's hardcore stereotyping.

RatScabies
14 Sep 2007, 12:42
Also the deathmatch scheme you talk about is not a very demanding scheme, never mind as strategic as you claim, it has serious balance issues and it doesn't come close to the skill needed for shopper never mind Elite...Fact remains, I've never played a Deathmatch scheme game in wormnet ever...
Serioulsy, relax.
I don't think I need to point out what a hypocrite you're being. No offense, but you're a perfect example of the reason why I'm glad they didn't include shopping, or chatting, in WOW:2. You've only mentioned that you're the best, most experienced worms player about a hundred times now.
Just for clarifications sake, since it's obvious you misunderstood me, I'd consider the "standard" way of playing worms to be any scheme that doesn't require house rules, or any rules at all, actually. Forts, BNG, Propers, RR, Shoppers, etc. all require special rules that aren't really in the game. That's it. Pretty simple really. As far as all these balance issues go, well that's why you can create your own schemes if you think some things are unfair. Don't like random worm placement? Choose where they go every round. And so on. I never claimed this way of playing required more skill, just more strategy, a point you haven't properly refuted. As far as popularity goes, I think plenty of people are voting with their wallet right now by picking up these great handhelds. But enough, I really am finished debating whatever it is you're trying to get across. I hope you understand why people have a stereotyped image of shoppers as being arrogant and unpleasant, because you fit that stereotype perfectly.

yakuza
14 Sep 2007, 13:02
It was you who came up claiming normal schemes are more strategic than Shopper. And your latest claim is that any scheme included by the game is a normal scheme, including Blast Zone and the likes, so really, you couldn't be more wrong. The fact that you choose to ignore all the reasons I've exposed as to why Shopper is highly strategic and you never exposed a single point on why you think normal games take more tactics, besides the fact you have to walk around instead of, roping around, tells me enough.
It was you who came up and said Shopping degenerates the strategy of the game, and then you dare defend schemes that include sheep strike and banana bombs, saying those actually take a strategic mind to play, I'm sorry I've came up as arrogant and unpleasant, but you aren't making any sense, you might be frustrated you never learned to play those schemes you hate, or you might think you have a valid point, but I'm yet to hear it. You can't label a scheme because of how newbs play it, you can only label it logically, and Shopper, by pure logic, is much more strategic than any of those crazy big bang normal schemes you name, in the correct scenario, a shopper becomes a game purely based on tactics, adaptability and skill in the use of weapons, and roping becomes secondary aspect. I'm repeating myself, I've already explained you all this, but you are just ignoring it, and that's why I come unpleasantly. I can't force you to trust my judgement on this 8 year old game, but you won't get any better criteria, whether that's arrogant or not, I don't care.

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