can we argue over rules? [Archive] - Team17 Forum

PDA

View Full Version : can we argue over rules?

b1llygo4t
16 Sep 2008, 11:18
well i for one am for standardized rules. we should (hahahaha) agree on a few things.
i feel
if shoppa = pack= cba,afr, abl/ktl, then cba,afr,abl/ktl,fba,sba,wba should = 6pack
in shoppa:
1)your active worm does not count as part of the pile
2)when skipping a turn you can collect a crate but must move to the same spot or it is another cow
3)if ts or batty is on if a crate is "stolen" by a hanging worm, whoevers turn it is does not have to cba
4)if someone cows they must skip, unless the victim says not to and the host does not object
in fly shoppa:
1)you have to bounce off of something to launch your worm
2)you cant slide across the top of the fly obstacle
3)with ts you cant use the chute, you have to land by using the rope
4)with ts you can launch a weapon in the middle of a fly(assuming you cba and abl/ktl), but if you fail the fly it is a cow
in surf shoppa
1)hang 10
anyone else have any discrepancies or things they wanna clear up?

M3ntal
16 Sep 2008, 17:26
3)if ts or batty is on if a crate is "stolen" by a hanging worm, whoevers turn it is does not have to cba
4)if someone cows they must skip, unless the victim says not to and the host does not object
3)ts and batty are not part of a shopper, they should be off.
4)Skipping your turn for a COW makes no sense whatsoever. If it was on purpose, the guy isn't gonna do anything you ask such as skip. If it was by accident, he isn't gonna COW again. In many situations it is actually detrimental to the person he COW'd, as this person is usually in last place, and could do with the help attacking the guy/guys in first. It's like saying "you unfairly attacked person x, your punishment is to attack him more".
::Edit::
This attached replay demonstrates many of the problems with shopper, and online play in general.

Gnork
17 Sep 2008, 11:31
o.m.g. what do we have here..... pfff - this topic makes me urge to reply :eek:
if shoppa = pack= cba,afr, abl/ktl, then cba,afr,abl/ktl,fba,sba,wba should = 6pack
Whatever - but if someone tells me 6pack, I'm running to the fridge to check if mine is cold enough yet :P
1)your active worm does not count as part of the pile
duh?
2)when skipping a turn you can collect a crate but must move to the same spot or it is another cow
HELL NO! when skipping a turn, it means SKIPPING A TURN, meaning NOT MOVING AROUND AND GRABBING A CRATE, it means, turn starts, you press F12 and SKIP your turn!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!!1!!! grab a crate while you have to skip in my game and you WILL get KTC'ed. OmFg, grabbing a crate is allowed - whoever learned you such NONSENSE
3)if ts or batty is on if a crate is "stolen" by a hanging worm, whoevers turn it is does not have to cba
No create means having to W2W before attack. Ancient shopper rule.
4)if someone cows they must skip, unless the victim says not to and the host does not object
agreed, but better would be to say "unless the host says not to and the victim does not object." Afterall, it's the hosts' game, and not the victims.
1)you have to bounce off of something to launch your worm
duh? Then you have never played bloopy's map where pro's use the dot to fly instead?
2)you cant slide across the top of the fly obstacle
well, obviously you can, since the game physics allow it to happen and you see it happen often in games. but sliding is not flying, so he/she has to retry and fly again, yea ;)
3)with ts you cant use the chute, you have to land by using the rope
TS is a new function, enabling a extra bit of gameplay to fly shoppers, especially bigger maps since TS is often too strong for the default map size. Why forbid a new feature on bigger maps? It's called evolution. AFC is allowed since in many cases it's more difficult to attack and successfully hit your target as well, so why bother about the chute? It's a cool toy. Then simply don't enable TS if you don't want people to use the chute.
4)with ts you can launch a weapon in the middle of a fly(assuming you cba and abl/ktl), but if you fail the fly it is a cow
yea, sounds kinda fair :P
in surf shoppa
1)hang 10
what?

yakuza
17 Sep 2008, 11:41
HELL NO! when skipping a turn, it means SKIPPING A TURN, meaning NOT MOVING AROUND AND GRABBING A CRATE, it means, turn starts, you press F12 and SKIP your turn!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!!1!!! grab a crate while you have to skip in my game and you WILL get KTC'ed. OmFg, grabbing a crate is allowed - whoever learned you such NONSENSE
I'm having a hard time deciding if you're being sarcastic or not. So to make it clear, skipping a turn allows you to grab the crate.
No create means having to W2W before attack. Ancient shopper rule.
This is actually an ancient Roper rule that translated to Shopper beause shopper is just a collage of the other schemes.

Gnork
17 Sep 2008, 11:51
I'm having a hard time deciding if you're being sarcastic or not. So to make it clear, skipping a turn allows you to grab the crate.
I think I was clear enough. Having to skip your turn means you're not moving around and certainly not grabbing a crate. Bloody cowing around more? No way. Turn start -> F12 -> Space -> Next player's turn. And don't be funny by pressing space after 25 seconds, just do it NOW and get on with it. And LEAVE THAT CRATE ALONE.
This is actually an ancient Roper rule that translated to Shopper beause shopper is just a collage of the other schemes.
Yes, but anyway, it's ancient in shoppers as well ;)

b1llygo4t
17 Sep 2008, 12:04
HELL NO! when skipping a turn, it means SKIPPING A TURN, meaning NOT MOVING AROUND AND GRABBING A CRATE, it means, turn starts, you press F12 and SKIP your turn!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!!1!!! grab a crate while you have to skip in my game and you WILL get KTC'ed. OmFg, grabbing a crate is allowed - whoever learned you such NONSENSE
not grabing the crate does nothing for the victim, and only transfers power to someone else
No create means having to W2W before attack. Ancient shopper rule.
i can agree to that
duh? Then you have never played bloopy's map where pro's use the dot to fly instead?
the fishy fly map? i only said something cause it tends to be an issue
TS is a new function, enabling a extra bit of gameplay to fly shoppers, especially bigger maps since TS is often too strong for the default map size. Why forbid a new feature on bigger maps? It's called evolution. AFC is allowed since in many cases it's more difficult to attack and successfully hit your target as well, so why bother about the chute? It's a cool toy. Then simply don't enable TS if you don't want people to use the chute.
im not forbiding using the chute, like if you miss and need to recover, but you should have to successfully land the fly by grabing something with the rope. the chute makes flys waaaay to easy. considering with ts you can shoot the rope both ways, id say that makes up for the big flys. i made a tiny fly surf (1256 by 592) map that uses ts, its a little harder but totally doable, i dont understand why people have to make these gigantic flys, i feel its more skillful to have to aim than just launch rly far
what?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hang_Ten

yakuza
17 Sep 2008, 12:05
I think I was clear enough. Having to skip your turn means you're not moving around and certainly not grabbing a crate. Bloody cowing around more? No way. Turn start -> F12 -> Space -> Next player's turn. And don't be funny by pressing space after 25 seconds, just do it NOW and get on with it. And LEAVE THAT CRATE ALONE.
You're wrong, then. From a competitive 1on1 scenario, which is the only right scenario since rules in free for all Shoppers are a waste of time.
Let's look at the reasons why someone would skip a turn in a 1on1:
- You accidentaly blocked a worm. In which case, you get your crate, leave his, and skip. He then starts roping, gets his two crates and attacks - game is back at the point previous to the block.
That's it, there's no other reason to skip a turn. Attacking before getting a crate is a 5 second penalty and there's no other way to cheat. So there you go.
Arguing over the rules in free for all is retarded since ruels were not designed to apply to those kind of games. They were translated to those games by unexperienced players (the kind of players who do free for all Shopping) and thus do not make any sense from a design point of view. That doesn't mean they could ever work, since free for all cannot ever be fair. Unless it's a race that doesn't involve weapons.

b1llygo4t
17 Sep 2008, 12:16
3)ts and batty are not part of a shopper, they should be off.
batty in shoppa is fun, and i believe test stuff will be fully implemented and no longer an option, tho id perfer to see some of them as options
4)Skipping your turn for a COW makes no sense whatsoever. If it was on purpose, the guy isn't gonna do anything you ask such as skip. If it was by accident, he isn't gonna COW again. In many situations it is actually detrimental to the person he COW'd, as this person is usually in last place, and could do with the help attacking the guy/guys in first. It's like saying "you unfairly attacked person x, your punishment is to attack him more".
in my experience skipping from a cow is good sportsmanship. i dont see people cow on purpose. ever. its always an accident or misjudgment, or their a noob. half the time it goes like this
so and so: oops sry ill skip
the other half of the time it continues
that guy: dont skip
so and so: tnx sry :)
You're wrong, then
who ever said free for all? shoppa is generaly abl or ktlgayness

franpa
17 Sep 2008, 12:21
Making the punishment severe means it takes guts to follow them. This improves everyones opinion of the player because they have shown respect for the rules.

yakuza
17 Sep 2008, 12:25
who ever said free for all? shoppa is generaly abl or ktlgayness
With free for all I mean games with more than two teams, rules do not exist to make the game fair in those but to make sure everyone gets a slice of the fun until the end. Therefore arguing the justice in these rules is a pointless excercise.

Gnork
17 Sep 2008, 12:32
You're wrong, then. From a competitive 1on1 scenario, which is the only right scenario since rules in free for all Shoppers are a waste of time.
This topic is not about 1on1 scenario's (which is the only thing you ever want to talk about). This is about abl/ktl shoppers - and not ffa. Imagine, it's pretty common to have 3 or 4 players in a game. Yes, I know, it's hard for you to cope with - **** happens :)
Let's look at the reasons why someone would skip a turn in a 1on1:
- You accidentaly blocked a worm. In which case, you get your crate, leave his, and skip. He then starts roping, gets his two crates and attacks - game is back at the point previous to the block.
That's it, there's no other reason to skip a turn. Attacking before getting a crate is a 5 second penalty and there's no other way to cheat. So there you go.
Cool. Agreed. Correct. In 1on1 shoppers you want to play that way.
The thing you missed: we were not discussing it from that point of view.
Arguing over the rules in free for all is retarded since ruels were not designed to apply to those kind of games. They were translated to those games by unexperienced players (the kind of players who do free for all Shopping) and thus do not make any sense from a design point of view. That doesn't mean they could ever work, since free for all cannot ever be fair. Unless it's a race that doesn't involve weapons.
Whoever plays a shopper in Free For All Mode is either a newbie who isn't familiar with the way things are played on wormnet, or maybe somebody who is a bit too drunk and just wants to have a lot of fun with no strict rules involved.
edit: With free for all I mean games with more than two teams
Then don't call it Free For All, because that's a different thing. I completely missed the point in my last post cause of you using this term.

bonz
17 Sep 2008, 12:42
Hang Ten!
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/SaltySalty/girls/HangTen.jpg

Gnork
17 Sep 2008, 12:59
Hang Ten!
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/SaltySalty/girls/HangTen.jpg
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/705/waterslideji6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/waterslideji6.jpg/1/w500.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img178/waterslideji6.jpg/1/)

yakuza
17 Sep 2008, 15:04
edit:
Then don't call it Free For All, because that's a different thing. I completely missed the point in my last post cause of you using this term.
So in a game with more than two teams you're not competing against each other?

Gnork
17 Sep 2008, 15:45
So in a game with more than two teams you're not competing against each other?
Let me lighten you up. Free For All is being implemented as meaning there is no ABL nor KTL in a game, so it's no cow if you hit last or not the leader. FFA shoppers can be found hosted by newbies (commonly in the stage where they discovered the rope and indy land, have joined 1 shopper game in their lifetime and semi try to copy what they think they saw while not being aware of all the rules yet) or very drunk people who wanna have a laugh with some mates.

yakuza
17 Sep 2008, 15:55
Let me lighten you up. Free For All is being implemented as meaning there is no ABL nor KTL in a game, so it's no cow if you hit last or not the leader. FFA shoppers can be found hosted by newbies (commonly in the stage where they discovered the rope and indy land, have joined 1 shopper game in their lifetime and semi try to copy what they think they saw while not being aware of all the rules yet) or very drunk people who wanna have a laugh with some mates.
Free for all is a game in which everyone is competing agaisnt everyone else to win the game, regardless of the rules that control the order of attacks or whatever.
So now that I've made myself clear there is no reason to try and make me use a different term, specially considering mine is backed up by the definition itself.
I will say it again, changing the rules in free for all shoppers in an attempt to make it more fair is a big waste of time, since not one rule (KLT, ABL, CBA) is fair, by any means, you could basically skip the whole game and go to the last turn. The rules are only there to prevent early drop outs, ergo to make it funner for the whole lot of participants.
If you want to settle for standarized rules I suggest you follow those from leagues. Sadly, there's no international league currently, and the only central league community is Liga Worms. But it's hard enough convicing the WA shopper community that AFR is as stupid as not using random cavern maps.

franpa
17 Sep 2008, 16:19
Free for all is a game in which everyone is competing agaisnt everyone else to win the game, regardless of the rules that control the order of attacks or whatever.
exactly, and in Shopper you generally play with KTL or ABL and the rule is enforced by skipping if it is broken. if the user does not skip, then they are treated as **** because they don't respect the rules. Do you constantly break rules in shoper games that you play? how many do you play? do you play any?

yakuza
17 Sep 2008, 16:39
exactly, and in Shopper you generally play with KTL or ABL and the rule is enforced by skipping if it is broken. if the user does not skip, then they are treated as **** because they don't respect the rules. Do you constantly break rules in shoper games that you play? how many do you play? do you play any?
What does this have to do with anything I've said? I'm not going to give you special treatment just because you're special franpa, read the thread like everyone else. Just because your simple mind can't understand that free for all and KTL/ABL are not contradictory terms and that by free for all I meant funners in which more than two players participate (like I've said countless of times already) doesn't mean you have a reply worthy point.

franpa
17 Sep 2008, 17:09
but, shoppa with more then 2 players is not always a funner, how hard is it to comprehend that?

yakuza
17 Sep 2008, 17:12
but, shoppa with more then 2 players is not always a funner, how hard is it to comprehend that?
Okay, another term I will have to explain. Funner is a non league game. Funner is not a shopper game were anything is allowed. Funner is just a game that has no trascendency to your rank or league position. Thus a game involving more than 2 players in different teams is always a funner. Yes, funners still go by the KTL or ABL rules, I never said otherwise. It would be stupid to call them funner if they didn't go by the rules, since those are only there to make sure everyone has fun, as opposed to guaranteeing fair competition.
Hence I ask again, read first, reply after.

M3ntal
18 Sep 2008, 01:25
batty in shoppa is fun, and i believe test stuff will be fully implemented and no longer an option, tho id perfer to see some of them as options
Then you believe wrong.
in my experience skipping from a cow is good sportsmanship.
It isn't though, that's my whole point. Good sportsmanship would be stuff like leaving the victim a crate, or not attacking him when he's leader, etc. Most of the time, skipping your turn is actually detrimental to the victim.
half the time it goes like this
so and so: oops sry ill skip
the other half of the time it continues
that guy: dont skip
so and so: tnx sry :)
No, most of the time it goes like this
A: COW
B: COW
C: <expletive> COW
B: SKIP YOU <expletive>
C: <expletive><expletive>
A: <expletive><expletive><expletive><expletive>
COW: Sorry guys, you never said it was KTL/i was aiming for B and i missed/i don't know the rules
B: stfu and skip
A: KTC!
C: KTC!!!!
I always tell people who COW me not to skip, i'd rather they make up for it by attacking someone. I also explain the rules to noobs who COW because they don't know them, and they generally either try to play by the rules, or quit the game.
The rules of shopper are pretty well established (allthough i disagree with the skipping one mentioned here), it's having a good attitude that needs to be standardised.
Also, if there is any problem with standardisation, it's clearly because people like franpa and Gnork who don't understand the current established terms try to redefine them and misinform the other people who don't understand them. FFA means no multi-person teams. Your classic ABL/KTL shopper is a FFA. It doesn't mean you can attack anyone at any point, it means the aim is to kill all the other players in the game, as and when the rules allow. A funner is a non-league/tournament game. Even if you are all playing deadly serious and putting on your best performance, if you don't get any ranking or position at the end it is a funner. You are playing for the fun of playing, rather than to achieve status.

Mablak
18 Sep 2008, 01:55
I think skipping is obviously not an effective punishment most of the time if the goal is to help aid the person you cow'd, the only purpose is to show you recognize that you made a mistake and will deny yourself a bit of playing time as penance. Plus there's no real effective punishment that would do anyone any good, having something in the way might act as a deterrent for future cows, making a newer player behave more carefully even if they do know the rules.
Although, I can't imagine asking someone to skip in a funner if it was an obvious mistake. If a host asked me to skip though, I think it'd be reasonable to comply.

b1llygo4t
18 Sep 2008, 02:26
soooo..... what most of you are saying is that ffa is any shoppa type with more that 2 teams. so then to dictate that a shoppa game is "attack anyone" just dont include the abl/ktl?
that doesnt work at all, everyone will assume it is ktl (i prefer abl). if you just say shoppa ffa cba afr then everyone knows whats going on. when you host a shopper you dont say ffa abl cba afr do you? most say shoppa abl afr cba. i think most people understand that when you have more than 2 teams its more of a party game than a test of an individuals skill.
skipping happens happens, mostly by accident. its there to balance things. i change my mind, its easier to just skip your whole turn. tho in a friendly game i dont thing people should make each other skip unless its an excess of accidents. if its more serious skip.
all these things we are talking about may have once been different, but things change, just like the game. at one time a randomly generated cavern was the only thing to play on, now we can make huge maps. i supose some people could just make an irc channel for worms 3.0 and play with old school rules

Gnork
18 Sep 2008, 12:49
Also, if there is any problem with standardisation, it's clearly because people like franpa and Gnork who don't understand the current established terms try to redefine them and misinform the other people who don't understand them. FFA means no multi-person teams. Your classic ABL/KTL shopper is a FFA. It doesn't mean you can attack anyone at any point, it means the aim is to kill all the other players in the game, as and when the rules allow.
Maybe it's time you enlighten the crowd in ag then - because whenever you join something there which says FFA, then you know there are NO rules at all in that game. That's a very very common fact by now. And I just made a notification of what I see happening and wrote that down here, I do not try to dictate what FFA is. Read my badly chosen words better.
Also, I was never told myself about the way you think the term FFA should be explained. I honour rules and their correct way of defining, don't paint me black and tell me I do wrong things on purpose. It's lame to say I tell people wrong rules on purpose, especially since I care about explaining things to people instead of acting like an asshole who doesn't want to teach newbs a game. It's in your own advance if all know the rules, anyway. So think of it what you want, but when the 'common crowd' hears FFA in a game, they will attack anything and not play with abl or ktl. That's a big difference to how you guys explain the term. As far as I can tell it looks like FFA has become another game mode next to abl/ktl. That's what I said. If you don't like that, then join ag a bit more instead of staying cluttered in your own elite corner and teach the world better. It's elite people like you who fail to do so by staying hidden from the mass in ag. If you want that mass to know 'official' terms, then join them and teach them and point them to official websites where those terms can be found.
Anyway, to come back on that whole cowing stuff - personally I don't care at all when somebody makes a mistake in a game (we all make mistakes every day, no?), unless it was a very lame move which obviously wasn't an accident as well. Then you had better skip your turn, just to be polite to the others. But when I see how p!ssed off some hosts can get when a player made a little mistake, oh man... it's sad (pointing at some Italians in ag). *looks to that little demo chat there, and indeed - it's usually that way.... it makes you want to quit that game (if you're a cow or someone else was), simply because everybody is whining about some little mistake.

yakuza
18 Sep 2008, 12:56
Maybe it's time you enlighten the crowd in ag then - because whenever you join something there which says FFA, then you know there are NO rules at all in that game. That's a very very common fact by now. And I just made a notification of what I see happening and wrote that down here, I do not try to dictate what FFA is. Read my badly chosen words better.
Also, I was never told myself about the way you think the term FFA should be explained. I honour rules and their correct way of defining, don't paint me black and tell me I do wrong things on purpose. It's lame to say I tell people wrong rules on purpose, especially since I care about explaining things to people instead of acting like an asshole who doesn't want to teach newbs a game. It's in your own advance if all know the rules, anyway. So think of it what you want, but when the 'common crowd' hears FFA in a game, they will attack anything and not play with abl or ktl. That's a big difference to how you guys explain the term. As far as I can tell it looks like FFA has become another game mode next to abl/ktl. That's what I said. If you don't like that, then join ag a bit more instead of staying cluttered in your own elite corner and teach the world better. It's elite people like you who fail to do so by staying hidden from the mass in ag. If you want that mass to know 'official' terms, then join them and teach them and point them to official websites where those terms can be found.
Anyway, to come back on that whole cowing stuff - personally I don't care at all when somebody makes a mistake in a game (we all make mistakes every day, no?), unless it was a very lame move which obviously wasn't an accident as well. Then you had better skip your turn, just to be polite to the others. But when I see how p!ssed off some hosts can get when a player made a little mistake, oh man... it's sad (pointing at some Italians in ag). *looks to that little demo chat there, and indeed - it's usually that way.... it makes you want to quit that game (if you're a cow or someone else was), simply because everybody is whining about some little mistake.
There's a reason why elite players hide from the noob masses and it's clear in this thread. Whenever we offer insight it's constantly challenged, and trust me, it's really annoying. And not because you have a logical reason but because newbies mutate the terms into their own without any logical reasons. I gave you a logical and literal explanation of the terminology and your argument is that it's wrong because noobs use a different terminology. See why no one goes into random noob games to try and educate them now? If those newbies find their way to the elite places, then be sure they'll learn the elite and logical terminology, rule sets and behaviour.

M3ntal
18 Sep 2008, 13:27
That's what I said. If you don't like that, then join ag a bit more instead of staying cluttered in your own elite corner and teach the world better. It's elite people like you who fail to do so by staying hidden from the mass in ag. If you want that mass to know 'official' terms, then join them and teach them and point them to official websites where those terms can be found.
Are you serious?
You're seriously pointing those accusations the wrong way.
I've been in ag pretty much every day for the past 2 months, and it's only been about a week since i took a total noob and taught him shopper and BnG. Yes, i have my own network of friends whom i play a fair bit, but more often than not i'll be found in random intermediates, BnG's, or tower/rr games, and i'll try explain the rules to anyone who doesn't know them and convince the other people in the game to help. I'm quite well known for this approach, and it has caused arguments within my own clan in the past. In fact, if you find any SfX member attacking newbs like the guys in that replay, let me know and there'll be strong words!
Having said that, i apologise for generalising you also. I'm going by what the terms meant circa 2001 when i learnt them myself, and it annoys me that people keep fixing what isn't broke. Franpa gets no apology, due to the amount of times he's given misinformation to people asking for help, and made it harder for the rest of us to explain properly. I rarely play shoppers these days, and if what you say is true, we'll probably have to accept the new meaning of FFA. Just like when AFR was added. Just like when the turn time was changed to 30 seconds.

franpa
18 Sep 2008, 14:19
vast majority of people I play play by the same rules as me and dont need any special explanations. that is why I play it the way that i do. I also give power of choosing the punishment that applies to the cower to the victim. generally if the victom was a clan member, they would not care (i usually don't care too).

b1llygo4t
19 Sep 2008, 03:48
awwwww, you guys are so cute. so everyone pretty much agrees that a shopper is either abl, ktl, or ffa?
now what about afr? i know it stands for attack from rope, but does that encompass the chute? no one ever says you can, and everyone just does it. how about from midair with ts enabled? iv seen stuff about aff attack from fly, but what if you arent flying over the obstacle? how about from surf if you arent playing surf shoppa? is it more like attack while roping?
and how about cba if theres no crate? yakuza said ancient w2w rule, iv never heard of it, but it makes sense.

franpa
19 Sep 2008, 04:48
The ancient w2w rule does in fact exist, I've very rarely seen anyone mention it in #AG though. Attacking from the chute is perfectly legal in shopper/wxw.

yakuza
19 Sep 2008, 08:26
awwwww, you guys are so cute. so everyone pretty much agrees that a shopper is either abl, ktl, or ffa?
now what about afr? i know it stands for attack from rope, but does that encompass the chute? no one ever says you can, and everyone just does it. how about from midair with ts enabled? iv seen stuff about aff attack from fly, but what if you arent flying over the obstacle? how about from surf if you arent playing surf shoppa? is it more like attack while roping?
and how about cba if theres no crate? yakuza said ancient w2w rule, iv never heard of it, but it makes sense.
AFR is not a rule. It's a tactical decision. In league games, when someone does the cherry hide, typical in fruity caverns, people who are not experts at knocking will usually give up and straight zook/whatever from below, standing on ground. This is a choice, and it's balanced, since doing so leaves him in the open, down on the ground without piling. More often than not, it's worse for you to attack from the ground. This obviously doesn't apply in non league games since there's no such a thing as strategy or tactics in them.
Newbies in #anythinggoes enforce it because ironically they believe shooting from the ground is noobish.
W2W, is going from one side of the map to the other. Crates didn't always drop back in the day even with 100% probability, so this rule was needed.

Gnork
19 Sep 2008, 11:02
There's a reason why elite players hide from the noob masses and it's clear in this thread. Whenever we offer insight it's constantly challenged, and trust me, it's really annoying.
It depends on the persons interest how debatable certain rules are. If a person hears A on one day and then B on another, of course he would like to know the insights. Hence he will probably challenge what he's getting thrown at. There is such a variety in newbies. Some are so willing to learn and eat the food you give them, while others are so ignorant, stupid, stubborn or whatever... The whole world is like that, get used to it. If you can't you're not a good teacher, which is nothing to be blamed for.
Are you serious?
You're seriously pointing those accusations the wrong way.
I threw that more to yakuza than you, I see several sfx around in ag often, many are fun to play with, and their clan is to be respected. I learned many rules from them in the past as well, even used their ancient maps making HowTo to create my first ones. :P
I've been in ag pretty much every day for the past 2 months, and it's only been about a week since i took a total noob and taught him shopper and BnG. Yes, i have my own network of friends whom i play a fair bit, but more often than not i'll be found in random intermediates, BnG's, or tower/rr games, and i'll try explain the rules to anyone who doesn't know them and convince the other people in the game to help. I'm quite well known for this approach, and it has caused arguments within my own clan in the past. In fact, if you find any SfX member attacking newbs like the guys in that replay, let me know and there'll be strong words!
*points to what I said above ;)
I rarely play shoppers these days, and if what you say is true, we'll probably have to accept the new meaning of FFA. Just like when AFR was added. Just like when the turn time was changed to 30 seconds.
I've never seen any host explain FFA different whenever I joined one of those games. It's not in my personal favourites since I came to the conclusion FFA mode is only hosted by newb morons or very drunk ppl who are usually totally aware of the rules but have a laugh for the moment, really.
vast majority of people I play play by the same rules as me and dont need any special explanations. that is why I play it the way that i do. I also give power of choosing the punishment that applies to the cower to the victim. generally if the victom was a clan member, they would not care (i usually don't care too).
Do you ever have those situations where you make a little mistake and you realize it very soon - then go in your mind 'lets skip next turn'... but the other players in the game are getting so rude and offending that it makes you not want to skip anymore? Just because they keep on whining about it even after you skipped your turn?
awwwww, you guys are so cute. so everyone pretty much agrees that a shopper is either abl, ktl, or ffa?
ffa 'mode' does not have to apply solely to shoppers.
now what about afr? i know it stands for attack from rope, but does that encompass the chute? no one ever says you can, and everyone just does it. how about from midair with ts enabled? iv seen stuff about aff attack from fly, but what if you arent flying over the obstacle? how about from surf if you arent playing surf shoppa? is it more like attack while roping?
I don't know any better than afc is totally legal. It's hard to attack and both hit your target without some homing device (unless you do it from a very close distance, but lame shots are always present in games). Since TS enables attacking in mid air, I think it should be considered as an add-on to the rules. If he fly was perfect, there is no problem. If the guy flew a dozen times in his turn, attacked from mid air but oh bugger slides instead of making a nice ending to his fly - who cares, the turn was cool anyway. If the attacker makes 1/2 fly, lamely attacks immediately and slides to failure, it's probably a cow.

yakuza
19 Sep 2008, 11:05
By your logic FFA roperaces don't exist. See how silly this would sound?

franpa
19 Sep 2008, 12:24
Do you ever have those situations where you make a little mistake and you realize it very soon - then go in your mind 'lets skip next turn'... but the other players in the game are getting so rude and offending that it makes you not want to skip anymore? Just because they keep on whining about it even after you skipped your turn?
Yes, but that is rare these days since I hardly join games hosted by someone I don't know.

KRD
19 Sep 2008, 13:04
It depends on the persons interest how debatable certain rules are. If a person hears A on one day and then B on another, of course he would like to know the insights. Hence he will probably challenge what he's getting thrown at. There is such a variety in newbies. Some are so willing to learn and eat the food you give them, while others are so ignorant, stupid, stubborn or whatever... The whole world is like that, get used to it. If you can't you're not a good teacher, which is nothing to be blamed for.
Yes, and both those groups of so called newbies have one thing in common: they don't listen to our elite circle. The ones that will take anything they're told as fact have already been told false "rules" by tens of people before we even come in contact with them, making the explaining process take a lot longer than in should. The ignorant and stubborn ones refuse to listen to anyone resembling a figure of authority on principle alone. Marvelous job indeed.
This is one reason we of the hood-obscured faces for the most part stopped bothering with targeting individuals on WormNet [unless of course they randomly find their way into our games or, gasp, into the #Help channel] and instead elected to tackle the problem at its roots, the lack of a central community. But of course these things take time and so patience is to be practiced on both sides of the argument.
:cool:

X_xViox_X
19 Sep 2008, 13:25
The host sets the rules. You join the game and wait for him/her to tell you which rules you will be playing by in their game. That's it - end of story. You want different rules, learn to host or join another game. Joining someones game and yelling KTLTKTLTKTL is rude to the host who sets the rules. And if you host and say "Rules?" then you are being rude to your guests. TELL THEM THE RULES (yes I hate writing in caps as much as you hate reading it, but maybe it will sink in this way) and if they don't understand, teach them or boot them.
And there's nothing wrong with grabbing a crate when you are skipping your turn; as long as you don't attack or rope knock or block, you've paid your penance. It's unfair to demand a person lose not only their turn, but their weapon as well.
This is a game, act like it. If someone accidentally attacks while not on their rope, or accidentally attacks a person not in the leader position, then treat it like an accident and say "that's ok." Don't be a jerk and take their turn and weapon from them. Offer to skip your turn if you make a mistake, it's as polite as saying "hf & gl" or "gg." And most times the other person won't even care, and you can go on playing this game without getting all emotional over what some tiny worm with a rocket launcher did.
(Edit: Edited some wording, took out last paragraph - felt like I was beating a dead horse.)

yakuza
19 Sep 2008, 18:26
One of the biggest problems here is that once you reach a point were you consider yourself a "VIP" community member it is only visible to those that already know you. Myself, per example, more often than not I get annoyed because I explain something and expect the ones listening to agree with me just because I consider myself an experienced wormer, something they might not know. I'm aware this is a mistake by my part, but the thing is, these forums, team17 ones, are were most of the newbies come seeking for help, but the big majority of "elite" wormers do not post here or have ever done, so when one of them pops up, the "regulars" here treat them as newcomers and their insight is not respected as it should.
WA needs a central community, and hopefuly that'll come sooner than later.

b1llygo4t
22 Sep 2008, 08:46
Yes, and both those groups of so called newbies have one thing in common: they don't listen to our elite circle....
taken from wikipedia
Elite (also spelled Élite) is taken originally from the Latin, eligere, "to elect". In sociology as in general usage, the élite is a relatively small dominant group within a large society, which enjoys a privileged status envied by individuals of lower social status.
the only wormers i see as elite are cs, dc, and pre beta testers, and those knowledgeable enough to make wkmodules. the rest of us are just end users/beta testers.
anyone can start a clan and feel good about it
By your logic FFA roperaces don't exist. See how silly this would sound?
huh? are there team roperaces?

Scrub555
22 Sep 2008, 12:28
3)ts and batty are not part of a shopper, they should be off.
4)Skipping your turn for a COW makes no sense whatsoever. If it was on purpose, the guy isn't gonna do anything you ask such as skip. If it was by accident, he isn't gonna COW again. In many situations it is actually detrimental to the person he COW'd, as this person is usually in last place, and could do with the help attacking the guy/guys in first. It's like saying "you unfairly attacked person x, your punishment is to attack him more".
::Edit::
This attached replay demonstrates many of the problems with shopper, and online play in general.
Are both those files supposed to be the same?

yakuza
22 Sep 2008, 15:10
taken from wikipedia
Elite (also spelled Élite) is taken originally from the Latin, eligere, "to elect". In sociology as in general usage, the élite is a relatively small dominant group within a large society, which enjoys a privileged status envied by individuals of lower social status.
the only wormers i see as elite are cs, dc, and pre beta testers, and those knowledgeable enough to make wkmodules. the rest of us are just end users/beta testers.
anyone can start a clan and feel good about it
Quite a few "pre-beta-testers" have posted in this thread.
I don't know in which point in WA's history newbies stopped listening to the good players, but I'm sure as hell it made the game worse.
huh? are there team roperaces?
See? This is why you shouldn't get a say in anything. You don't know the game as well as other people do. And yes, there are. In fact, RR is one of the most popular clan league scheme.
Look, I have no problems in people wanting to review the rules of the game, I'm just asking for a bit of research before making a thread like this. If you want to debate the reasons of the rules with someone, make sure that you have more answers than questions.

M3ntal
22 Sep 2008, 19:17
One of the biggest problems here is that once you reach a point were you consider yourself a "VIP" community member it is only visible to those that already know you. Myself, per example, more often than not I get annoyed because I explain something and expect the ones listening to agree with me just because I consider myself an experienced wormer, something they might not know.Of course, it helps when you keep the same name ;).
the only wormers i see as elite are cs, dc, and pre beta testers, and those knowledgeable enough to make wkmodules. the rest of us are just end users/beta testers.
Anyone who has played the game for a few years can be considered "elite", imo.
Are both those files supposed to be the same?
The forum didn't allow me to attach the file in one piece as it was above the 100K limit, so i had to split it into two. WinRAR will extract the full file from either of those, it loads up all pieces of a split file when you open one of them.

b1llygo4t
23 Sep 2008, 00:39
See? This is why you shouldn't get a say in anything. You don't know the game as well as other people do. And yes, there are. In fact, RR is one of the most popular clan league scheme.
Look, I have no problems in people wanting to review the rules of the game, I'm just asking for a bit of research before making a thread like this. If you want to debate the reasons of the rules with someone, make sure that you have more answers than questions.
worms knowledge database doesnt say anything about team rr games, nor does a google search, or a search of blame the pixel. i did find a few games in the worms olympics, but it doesnt have its own scheme its only dictaed by 2v2 being displayed, which makes sense, that was stupid of me to even ask. i was in a "clan" for a short period of time, but quit because it was more like a club. its not fair to say i dont know enough to discus the rules
i started this thread because the documentation over some of the rules was incomplete and the threads discussing them were contradictory and/or inconlusive. i wanted to clarify a few things instead of just playing how i felt it should be played. it would be nice if some of you more informed wormers could put entries into the worms knowledge database considering im obviously not qualified to dictate to others what the rules are, this thread is at least a good start for you to agree on the rules.
does playing wa for ps1 for years count as elite? no? didnt think so... i know prebeta testers post on this forum, i dont know who is who, and i cant say i ever played one. mabe if there was a board of old school users that where elected/put into position based on experience and tenure within the community, and that board agreed upon and dictated the rules into documentation, then i would consider those people elite. that would be nice because this whole each one teach one way of rule regulation is fail
im not a noob, iv been on wormnet for 3/4 of a year.

yakuza
23 Sep 2008, 08:22
mabe if there was a board of old school users that where elected/put into position based on experience and tenure within the community, and that board agreed upon and dictated the rules into documentation, then i would consider those people elite. that would be nice because this whole each one teach one way of rule regulation is fail
This has pretty much been happening in league boards since launch. The last schemes to get heavy community reviews have been BnG and to some extent, Team17. Sadly, like I said, there is currently no league of those characteristics.
And no, BTP is by no means a good source, since they don't moderate the content and there's about 100 different versions of each scheme.
It's not hard to know the whos and the whats of the community if you've spent 4 years in it like you claim. You just find to find your way to the place were the good players hang out, providing you're interested in said place.
edit: Just noticed you said three quarters of a year and not 3 to 4 years.

M3ntal
23 Sep 2008, 13:03
You are not as likely to meet and play more experienced players if you mainly play shoppers. They have always been the most hosted scheme, and as such we got tired of them years ago, this is perhaps why the shopper rules get messed with more often than other schemes.
I think the last dispute over any other scheme was BnG 2-3 years back when a few of us figured out the game physics a bit too much, and could hit anyone first time with a nade using maths and small arrow taps (known as notching). There was a big debate on cl2k/fb as to whether it was a viable tactic, and in the end it was decided against. You may have noticed the power bar acts a bit differently in teststuff, that was Deadcode testing a method to stop me hitting him in the face with a full power 4 sec every turn :D. I think that was about the same time that low grav got added to the scheme as well.

Plasma
23 Sep 2008, 14:36
I don't know in which point in WA's history newbies stopped listening to the good players, but I'm sure as hell it made the game worse.
Nonsense, the newbies still listen to the good players for rules and advice!
That is to say, most good players aren't very good for asking rules and advice from. There's a difference between 'being good' and 'knowing everything exactly'.

yakuza
23 Sep 2008, 15:12
Nonsense, the newbies still listen to the good players for rules and advice!
Well, that's ironic.

franpa
24 Sep 2008, 03:23
I think the last dispute over any other scheme was BnG 2-3 years back when a few of us figured out the game physics a bit too much, and could hit anyone first time with a nade using maths and small arrow taps (known as notching).
did Deadcode make it so that you can't easily aim straight up or down in TS as an attempt to stop you? or are you referring to something else in TS? (perhaps something more subtle?)

yakuza
24 Sep 2008, 08:17
did Deadcode make it so that you can't easily aim straight up or down in TS as an attempt to stop you? or are you referring to something else in TS? (perhaps something more subtle?)
If you hold the power and it reaches the max it goes back down again. This way, it's hard to do max power shots. (note that the most basic notching is 4s full powered grenades)
But it doesn't help much, since the "translation" from 4sec full to 3s or 5s lg is so simple that some notchers only need to memorize one move and then just learn to "translate".
This is why I find the gentleman rule of never doing the same shot twice in a row or never repeating if possible a bit of a silly workaround.

M3ntal
24 Sep 2008, 13:51
It's like Yakuza says. TS is still easy to aim straight up/down, you just find the point where the worm turns around, and go back one.

franpa
25 Sep 2008, 04:10
Yes i had forgotten that feature change in TS that Yakuza mentioned. It makes sense.

vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.