Quitting Deathmatch loses stats... [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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pipes100
10 Jul 2007, 07:16
Half the time I quit a Deathmatch, I get taken back to the lobby where nothing has changed and I get to give it another go. Perfect.
But the other half, I boot the game, select Deathmatch and my team and then quit in the match, I wind up in the main menu. When I go back to the Deathmatch lobby, I find that my Rank has gone down a notch, say from Hero to Field Marshall and the worm "setup" is what it was after becoming a Field Marshall. BUT, my "games won" did not change. Then if I go in and say quit again, my rank can go down another notch, down to like "highly competent" or something. Sometimes exiting and rebooting Worms will make it go back to where it was but usually I'm stuck with having to redo everything. So currently, I'm at 36 wins and 0 loses with a Field Marshall rank, I'm sure that's not right. Something screwy is definetely going on here.
Can other peoply try this? Try my save that I attached. I do not remember encountering this with the old patch, I think this is new.
NOTE: One more little bug I found is that when a worm gets pushed into the water by "flames", you don't hear the "bloop" sound (worm hitting the water). Instead all you hear is the slight crackle from the flames - as if it overrides the "bloop" sound.

pipes100
12 Jul 2007, 07:52
This is reproing for me every time now. This seems like a pretty bad bug - losing save progress. Does no one else play Deathmatch? So basically in Deathmatch, "Quit the game" serves no purpose and people will just have to take the hit to their stats if they no they are doomed, that is if they are even aware of this issue. Is there anything that can be done about this? Is this confirmed so it can be addressed in the next build?

KRD
12 Jul 2007, 15:42
Losing a Deathmatch rank because of quitting a game is how it's designed to be. Otherwise you could quit every time the situation was looking grim and get away with it. And you actually can do that using a trick.
It's the part where you don't receive any other negative stats upon quitting that's the bug. But it's always been like that, so nobody complains.

pipes100
12 Jul 2007, 17:43
I can see losing the "Rank" AND even recieving a "Loss" for this, but it is proper that you have to do the battle before this one over again. In the later levels, that could take like 20 minutes. That's punishment does not fit the crime.
Quitting and dying should be the same result - A "loss" posted to your W/L column. It should'nt set you back a half an hour. Who's supposed to know that? There's no way that's how it should be.
So to sum up, the bug in my opinion is when quitting, your rank is reduced and you have to replay the battle before last and your W/L does not go down. It SHOULD be: your rank is not reduced, you do not have to replay the last battle (that's just dumb) and you should receive a LOSS in your W/L.

simhug
16 Jul 2007, 00:47
Don't quit.

pipes100
16 Jul 2007, 02:26
Ok, I hate retarded responses like that. Maybe I'll follow you around for the next couple of months and when you report a bug, I'll give you a juvenile response of: "Well, don't do that then!". If a quit button is there, then there's nothing wrong with using IT!!!! You would suck as a game tester. People should not be set back a HALF AN HOUR OF THEIR TIME FOR TRYING TO QUIT!! They should be penalized, but not retardedly.
This IS a bug that will cause alot people to lose their progress. If you want to be asses and say that's their fault, then that's very illogical and ignorant. Losing progress IS pretty f-ing bad and more serious than other bugs around here.
Yes, I will "surrender" if its a lost cause from now on but that doesn't mean everyone else in the world knows to do this. Does no one think that nobody is going to quit a Deathmatch ever and that if they do, should they lose their rank and have to redo the match before LAST and not have their W/L affected?! C'mon that's ridiculous and it should get fixed in the next build. Be smart about this - you want a fair game dont' you?

franpa
16 Jul 2007, 02:58
you want a fair game dont' you?
thats why programs like teamED exist ;)
sorry.

pipes100
16 Jul 2007, 04:33
thats why programs like teamED exist ;)
sorry.
True.
I guess I should have said "a game that does'nt cause destructive action without the users knowledge or confirmation". :p

KRD
16 Jul 2007, 07:46
Destructive action. ROFL.
You get demoted in rank because you displayed remarkable cowardice on the battlefield. Not a bug, a feature! For... realism... and stuff.
Seriously, though, I think it was designed that way to make the Deathmatch mode challenging. And apparently it did the trick, in your example at least.

pipes100
16 Jul 2007, 09:15
Destructive action. ROFL.
You get demoted in rank because you displayed remarkable cowardice on the battlefield. Not a bug, a feature! For... realism... and stuff.
Seriously, though, I think it was designed that way to make the Deathmatch mode challenging. And apparently it did the trick, in your example at least.
Listen, its not a feature, it a bug!! Did you read anything I wrote. Why the F is there a god damn option to quit game then!?! It's not cowardice, its trying to end the match and try again if your down to one worm with 16 health and 8 enemy worms closing in. Sometimes you really are doomed.
Also, other versions (like N64) would opperate like this if this were not a bug. Try quiting a Deathmatch on the N64 version and see what happens.
If this was designed this way, then you freaking W/L would be negatively affected, would'nt it. This bug is also not a 100% repro, which shows there's at least something wrong here.
It is NOT "by design" to have to play the MATCH BEFORE LAST over again. How many times do I need to repeat that!
So your saying that the game is soooo smart it cuts your rank down and forgets what battle you were on BUT does not change your W/L record!?! Not likely!
Tell me one reason why selecting "surrender" or "quitting the game" should produce different results! Because that's exactly what's going on - the results are the COMPLETE OPPOSITE (literally).
Jesus Christ! There's got to be someone who can see this!!

franpa
16 Jul 2007, 10:10
ah i see now, um yea, quiting is the exact same as surrendering if i understand correctly.. just like pressing alt-f4.

SilPho
16 Jul 2007, 11:25
Personally, if you quit I think the game should demote you and you should incur a loss. Deathmatches are designed to be hard, so if you can just try again and again without losing progress it makes it too easy.
The quit option should perhaps give you an extra warning that you will be penalised for quitting, but generally I think the current system is better.

CyberShadow
16 Jul 2007, 13:14
pipes100: It is by design. The game code explicitely demotes you in rank if you forfeit the match - however, it demotes you by half a rank, which explains the inconsistency you were observing. Other stats like kills are not recorded because the match didn't end normally. Now, please go call other people idiots somewhere else, before I start handing out infraction points.

SilPho
16 Jul 2007, 14:26
The game code explicitely demotes you in rank if you forfeit the match - however, it demotes you by half a rank
Ah thank you, that explains a lot. :) I always wondered why it didn't happen every time.

pipes100
16 Jul 2007, 18:15
Cybershadow, I only called him an idiot because if you read his post he rediculed me and called my actions cowardice. That's not fair because I had a very logical stance on this topic. Why is what I said ANY different than his words? Am I supposed to sit there and take it? Is that how it works around here - more active users can beat up of newer guys and the newer guy gets in trouble for saying one word- even though they refrained from cursing.
I was just trying to report a bug here, not get reemed by people. We all trying to enjoy the game, make it better and report bugs when we find them. These are help forums after all.
And at my job there is a little TCR called "Confirmation of Destructive Action" which requires games to inform user of what "bad things" their actions might cause (like losing game progress). So to Microsoft a message like "Quitting now will cause a rank demotion or something" would be required. I know that's never going to happen, but if people KNEW this is how the system works then I think they would NEVER quit and kill themselves off. I still think posting a "Lost" is sufficient punishment but oh well...

Muzer
16 Jul 2007, 18:53
The thing is, if you die in battle you go down a rank and have to compete it, so if you quit before the CPU kill you and you didn't go down a rank, everyone would do that.

pipes100
16 Jul 2007, 22:44
The thing is, if you die in battle you go down a rank and have to compete it, so if you quit before the CPU kill you and you didn't go down a rank, everyone would do that.
I know, but it seems like a harsh penality and again I think posting a Loss is sufficient. You got to draw a line somewhere, and I guess Team17 wanted some stiff penalities for trying to "cheat" and I know its not going to change. Its just that in the "quitting" scenerio, the user is not informed of anything before or after the quit. The whole thing is just a little weird.
And I don't remember the N64 versioning acting like this, but oh well.
So after checking all the different "exits", let's sum this up one more time for the record:
Performing a "surrender" or actually losing to the AI opponents results in:
1. Loss of Rank
2. Replay match before last
3. Post a Loss to the W/L
But at least you recieve a message about losing and then informed of new rank. So everything works hunkydory in this scenerio.
But selecting "Quit the game" results in only:
1. Loss of Rank
2. Replay match before last
No messaging unfortunately because you get booted to the main menu (which is by design I'm sure). But as mentioned before, the BUG at the very least is there's no Loss posted. So "Quitting" results are NOT constant with "surrendering" or "losing". So there we have it.

CyberShadow
16 Jul 2007, 23:42
This might be by design as well. The idea is - a rank demotion is reverseable (just win the game back), a lost game is not. You can't erase a "lost games" point short of creating a new team or directly editing your team file. But quitting definitely should not be allowed to be done remorselessly.

KRD
16 Jul 2007, 23:49
Cybershadow, I only called him an idiot because if you read his post he rediculed me and called my actions cowardice. That's not fair because I had a very logical stance on this topic. Why is what I said ANY different than his words? Am I supposed to sit there and take it? Is that how it works around here - more active users can beat up of newer guys and the newer guy gets in trouble for saying one word- even though they refrained from cursing.
Oh no you won't.
First of all, you're the only one being aggressive in this thread. After being told what the origin of your problem was and suggested a [perhaps not very serious, but at least humourous] way around it, you continued to come up with defensive posts full of disbelief and actually cursed more than once. For the record. And you called a post I enjoyed reading retarded. So much for forum etiquette.
I also wasn't being very subtle about the sarcasm in my second reply, but you must have missed that in your rage. I wasn't mocking you in any way, though, it's not something I do. I was just trying to make you realise how insignificant and unworthy of getting to you the minor technical issue was.
Unable to escape being me as I am, I also attempted to share with you a tiny bit of ye olde Wormy wisdom: Demanding to have the way in which something has worked for a decade changed isn't the way to go by it in this community. You have to be very gentle about it, ask people what they think first, see what the atmosphere is like before you jump in and start a crusade against a "bug". Nothing wrong with bug reports, of course, but the way in which you voice your opinion matters a bit more around here from my experience.
Anyway, everyone else in the thread seems to agree with me as far as the Deathmatch ranking system goes. Yet here I am, writing a post that feels like an apology or at least an explanation of my rudeness, still unsure about what it was that set you off so badly.

PsychoFrea
17 Jul 2007, 16:04
Pipe...it's called game design. Get used to it.

pipes100
17 Jul 2007, 20:31
My god, it never does end does it? Did you read my last post? It does not sound exactly like game design. IF you all are looking for punishment for quitting then you don't realize something VERY SIMPLE - that if you quit you are being rewarded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you surrender or lose, then you incur a loss. If you QUIT, you do not!!! I'll repeat that since some people are not reading or understanding what I'm saying. IF YOU QUIT, THEN YOU GET REWARDED BY NOT RECIEVING A LOSS!!!!!!!!!!! How could that be game design according to you guys!?! So there's no reason to ever surrender or lose, you suffer all the consequences EXCEPT not receiving a loss by quitting. Can someone with some logic see that this is the opposite of what you've ALL said is occuring - that quitting is actually better than any other "leaving" methods.
SO IF YOU ALL SUPPORT THIS DESIGN AND THINK THERE IS ZERO BUGS HERE, THEN YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU ACCEPT THE GAME DESIGN OF A SYSTEM WHERE QUITTING ACTUALLY IS A BETTER ALTERNATIVE TO SURRENDERING OR LOSING!!! When you a actually game tester, this is a red flag and would never ship today (usually). I understand it was made almost a decade ago and design requirments are alot better these days, but you got to understand that Quitting is somewhat rewarded here and I think Team17 would have fixed it if they had time or some tester found it.
I've never played a game in my freaking life that sets you back like this for losing or quitting. When you get up to level 40 where you have 2 worms against 15 level 5 worms, its tough and you need a little luck your way. Its hard to never lose at this point, especially with no "Scales of Justice". Do the non-pc versions of Worms set you back after a loss? I'm pretty sure the answer is no!
I was a game tester on Worms for XBLA and thank god they did'nt try to pull anything like this. Microsoft would not have permitted a user to quit to avoid a negative post to the Leaderboards. That was acually one of the bugs I found - quitting, signing out of your profile or pulling network tap would avoid a loss posted to the Ranked leaderboard from a Ranked match. They fixed that. And the lack of messaging would not be acceptable either and they WOULD have to put something in.
So sorry I'm used to a game that "functions" a little but more user friendly but does'nt mean I don't love Worms Armageddon and believe it to be the best Worms ever. I was reporting some VALID issues and had to persist as no one wants to hear what I had to say.

CyberShadow
17 Jul 2007, 21:04
Very well, let's take a look at a list of some facts:
These stats are not transmitted online, and are of pure informational value only
This game was released in 1999
This game is maintained by people who neither are Team17 employees nor are being paid for any work
It's very easy to "cheat" anyway, by minimising and killing WA.exe, or rebooting, or editing the team file, etc. etc.
No one really gives a damn about those stats anyway, since they are mere numbers and don't affect anything :P
Given the above items, I find your tone vastly exagerated and your comparisons to any other games or companies void.

pipes100
17 Jul 2007, 22:03
You do understand the REASON, the only reason I'm getting upset is cause EVERYBODY is attacking me on this and no one acknowledges anything I'm saying. I'm getting alot of: It is what it is, live with it!!! And I'm am, but I'm saying that doesn't mean its completely right or that Team17 probably intentionally made a quitter suffer slightly less than a surrenderer or a loser. And geez, I know this is an old game (I already said that), not officially supported and that this is a non-issue (now that I know demotions are normal) and that you can easily back up your save so you never lose your status and that there's no online leaderboards!
At this point, I am only stating that the system works a little weird, not quite what some users would expect and I think its valid to note. There are many more weirder, trivial bugs brought up around here, I don't think I need to have everyone come down on me for stating some facts about Deathmatch quitting while trying to get some more info myself.
I very active in emulation and gaming and troll tens of boards, but I've never encountered as much hostility as I see in these boards. And I'm not talking about me getting flamed everytime I post something, but how others are also treated around here. But whatever...

franpa
18 Jul 2007, 00:20
The quit option should perhaps give you an extra warning that you will be penalised for quitting,
just say this pipes100 and everyone will be happy.

pipes100
18 Jul 2007, 01:26
The quit option should perhaps give you an extra warning that you will be penalised for quitting. :-/

CyberShadow
18 Jul 2007, 01:42
I've never encountered as much hostility as I see in these boards.
You are only met with hostility because of your own behavior. Try to look from a neutral point of view at your own posts - you state your conclusions based on your incomplete observations as facts (repeatedly claim features are bugs), and you don't admit it later. For some reason you interpreted KRD's post as a personal insult - but from where I stand, it seems like you'd only do that if you expected to be insulted. The general tone of your posts isn't very helpful either - I can understand having a bad day and adding some emotional stress to your statements, but you're overextending it to the point where it reads as hostility and flaming to most readers. Frankly, I didn't understand at first what was the real issue you were trying to bring up, because it was surrounded by misguided statements of how you think the game works, how you think it should work, why you think it should work that way and why you think that your opinion is significant (comparisons to other ports/game companies etc). As for the "hostility" of the users in this forum - if you think this forum of an aged game with a relatively mature community is hostile, I wouldn't imagine what happens between you and forums with more younger members...
Here's a tip for the next time you post or report a bug. Before starting to write it up, take a deeep breath. Count to ten, very slowly. Then exhale. It's that simple - and I hear it does wonders ;)
The quit option should perhaps give you an extra warning that you will be penalised for quitting. :-/
I agree, but due to the way the in-game dialogs are designed (or, frankly speaking, lack of any design whatsoever), this could mean a few hundred lines of code to write and debug. Not pretty. From a developer's perspective, I'd rather either let them figure it out on themselves or mention it somewhere in the manual.

pipes100
18 Jul 2007, 03:05
Well, any neutral person would look at my first 2 posts and see NO anger or hostility (maybe misguidedness looking back), but just curious and frustrated at the situation. I tried to explain myself well enough but it was a difficult thing to explain and I did'nt even know exactly what was going on.
After, KRD made a minor comment eluding to me complaining. Fine, if you read my post after that, there was still no anger but I did take point with his statement, which I assume is allowed. But then I got a great comment of "Don't quit!" and then got upset at that person and exclaimed my viewpoint there. Franpa then made a descent comment and I responded fairly, even with a smiley. But then KRD made some comment that got under my skin (albeit sarcastically maybe) but none the less, that spelled the begining of the end for my patience on the topic where I had some valid points. Perhaps my years of playing and getting accustomed to the N64 version spoiled me for the very different PC version.
Anyway, with everything else aside, I suppose given the circumstances that its not realistic at all for messaging to be put in, but I do think this is worthy of a comment in the instructions. Other people might try to quit as well and not find out what's happening until they've gone down 4 ranks and have to make up 2 hours of gameplay. And I don't think they deserve that. But if its noted somewhere, they can't ***** like me.
And though I don't agree with the rank demotion aspect, I think "Quitters" should be penalized with a loss, then there would be zero advantage for that action and it would be consistant with the results of surrendering and losing.
And don't forget about the OTHER bug I mentioned in my first post - the missing sound effect. And if anyone tells me that's not a bug, I think you know what might happen.:)

plaf
18 Jul 2007, 04:43
NOTE: One more little bug I found is that when a worm gets pushed into the water by "flames", you don't hear the "bloop" sound (worm hitting the water). Instead all you hear is the slight crackle from the flames - as if it overrides the "bloop" sound.
1st, its not a bloop, but a plop.
2nd, try dropping a worm into the water in the middle of a rain of burning oil. im sure theres no plop, just sizzling. its meant to be that way.

franpa
18 Jul 2007, 05:39
well, to put it more sainly, it is most likely a number of channels issue, only so much can be played at a time.

pipes100
18 Jul 2007, 18:33
You might be right. But the game can do the "napalm crackle" at the same time the worm is saying "ouch". So maybe it can do the "napalm crackle" at the same time it produces the "plop" SFX. Its not a big deal but its just a little jarring when you used to hearing that beautiful, beautiful "plop" sound.

KRD
18 Jul 2007, 18:45
Works fine here, with the Napalm Strike and the Flamethrower.
maybe the ouch uses 1 cnnel nd the plop uses two cnannels? or the different weapons reserve different number of channels for themselves thus some weapons let you hear the plop while others wont.
That wouldn't explain why it only happens sometimes. Nor why it's never happened to me before.
I'd say the most likely cause of this is a slight disagreement between the new update and some sound drivers. Vista and Wine people reported new sound issues as well since the release of 3.6.28.0.

pipes100
19 Jul 2007, 02:29
Ok, well upon further investigation, I found how to more specifically get it to repro and I think its only with Barrels - since those flames "crackle". While standing on a patch of ground which slopes down into the water, shoot a Barrel with the shotgun and have it carry you down to the water. You'll hear the "sizzling" fire but when you hit the water and drown, no SFX. You might need to try it a couple times but it should work. I just literally got it to repro 3 times in the last 10 minutes with my speakers booming. I even got it where the fire was sizzling after the barrel blast shot me into the air and then when I came down and hit the water a second later, still no SFX - just the sizzling. The best way obviously is to do a local multiplayer game so you can pick a certain terrain and position all the worms appropiately. Again, this is not a huge bug, but would be nice if it was fixed.

franpa
19 Jul 2007, 04:17
maybe the ouch uses 1 channel and the plop uses two channels? or the different weapons reserve different number of channels for themselves thus some weapons let you hear the plop while others wont.

Dando
21 Jul 2007, 16:12
I use control alt delete and terminate the exe. Works.

pipes100
21 Jul 2007, 17:35
I use control alt delete and terminate the exe. Works.
Indeed. :D

Metal Alex
23 Jul 2007, 03:33
Maybe the "SHHHHHH" sound sounds at the exact time with the "plop", making it harder to be heard... just a thought, beacuse that could explain why it happens sometimes: when they happen at the same frame, for instance... (or the game only lets a certain number of sounds start per frame to avoid a simphony of sounds)

franpa
23 Jul 2007, 03:41
or the worm and fire hitting the same spot on the water surface thus only one thing is played and the other is ignored?

pipes100
23 Jul 2007, 17:28
or the worm and fire hitting the same spot on the water surface thus only one thing is played and the other is ignored?
That could be it.
And Alex, even with my speakers on full blast, there is no "plop"at all, so its definetly being cut off somehow. But thanks guys for thinking about this. Let me know if you come across it though.

Metal Alex
25 Jul 2007, 03:14
And Alex, even with my speakers on full blast, there is no "plop"at all, so its definetly being cut off somehow. But thanks guys for thinking about this. Let me know if you come across it though.
The thing is, at full blast, the SHHH also goes louder ;)
Even though I believe it to be a limited number of sounds :-/

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