Steam: Well there's nothing wrong with it [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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Globalnet
16 Jan 2010, 14:40
And today ill discuss about it.Steam is a platform made by Valve for use with the release of HL2.In 2005 there has been unrest about how steam acts. Like for example Steam needs to check for updates.this is verry fast due to it having a log of the steam game versions. but it requires to do this every 3 days or so ticking people without DSL connections.ofcourse this is history and no longer taken to the discussion
Lets have a look with some advantages T17 has with steam
1.Update Control
T17 can apply updates or roll them back easily.
2.DLC Support
Payed DLC support is active as well
3.VAC Integration
What VAC does is if a person is caught hacking with a known hack it is logged and in a few days(months) he's acsess to secure servers(im guessing all? deepnding if T17 allows non-secure servers) will be revoked
4.Steam Achievements and stats
T17 can enable stats and achievements so you can gain them and see them via the steam community. your friends can also see them too! You can also compare stats with friends and see the world-wide Achievement progress and see how many got that achievement and how many hasn't
Now with that said lets look at the Developer disadvantages
1.Piracy
Everything is pirated
2.Server may be down
Yes it happened once. release of HL2 overloaded the servers causing them to shut down.Now steam has alot more servers. and after that this has never happened again
Player Advantages are also important. let see them
1.Steam Friends
You meet a friend from the forum. you want to add him. You can simply go your Steam Overlay(see bellow) and click Add Friends ->View recently played with and chose his name and wait for him to accept.You can also invite them to a game or join they're game.You can also invite a group of friends to a group chat and talk with voice headsets while playing different games.
2.Steam Overlay
This one is my favorite.It allows you to access the web, talk to your friends without even Alt-Tabbing! Assess via shift-tab.
3.Guest Passes and Free Weekends
Guest Passes allows you to gift the game to a friend for 3 days.The full game, Without any limitation and such. Free Weekends are like guest passes
but is given to EVERYONE on steam, however only T17 can Decide
4.Steam Cloud
Let say you have 2 computers. You install Worms on each, then when you update the settings of one computer(not GFX settings only Keyboard,level,schemes).They will be updated on the Steam server so next time you log in to the other PC your settings are present
Lets Debunk Myths Shall we?
Myth 1:Steam is spyware
This was true in a fact that valve conducted a Valve Hardware statistics Test.After a while it was update to inform the user if they'd want to participate
Myth 2:Steam's DRM is bull****
Steam's DRM is simple really.You can install to any PC aslong as you do not distribute them to other people without the game
Also note that DRM is used to KILL the SECOND-HAND market, not stop piracy
Myth 3:VAC scans your system
.....NOT! if you know how VAC works you should know that it simply scans the running processes if your playing a VAC server
Please give some comments and if i overlooked something concerning steam
Hope that clears that up

MrBunsy
16 Jan 2010, 17:18
Also note that DRM is used to KILL the SECOND-HAND market, not stop piracy
Myth 3:VAC scans your system
For online games it does a pretty good job at stopping mass-piracy. Partly agreed about the second hand market, although there's always been problems with second hand software so it's not particularly steam-unique.

Alien King
18 Jan 2010, 18:06
Also note that DRM is used to KILL the SECOND-HAND market, not stop piracy
This is actually the only aspect of Steam I dislike on a fundamental level.
Although personally I find games run through Steam have a habit of loading slowly and are extremely temperamental when trying to play online multiplayer.
I also dislike that I have to run my games through it, but that's just me.

M3ntal
18 Jan 2010, 23:54
2.DLC Support
Payed DLC support is active as well
For those of us who like paying for a game, then paying again for the contents of the game?
Myth 1:Steam is spyware
This was true in a fact that valve conducted a Valve Hardware statistics Test.After a while it was update to inform the user if they'd want to participate
Therefore it is not a myth...
Myth 2:Steam's DRM is bull****...
...DRM is used to KILL the SECOND-HAND market, not stop piracy
Exactly! They're well within their moral rights to stop piracy, but how dare they tell me i can't sell my own copy that i bought to someone else. The entire world economy is run on the fact that you are allowed to buy a product from one person and sell it to another.
Myth 3:VAC scans your system
.....NOT! if you know how VAC works you should know that it simply scans the running processes if your playing a VAC server
My running processes currently include apache web server and mysql running code and database for software that's under a non-disclosure agreement, and firefox browser with active sessions to my eBay, Paypal, and bank. Unless VAC clearly states what it's doing beforehand and allows you to close any sensitive processes down before it starts scanning, i'm pretty sure it's technically breaking the law in the UK under the 1990 Computer Misuse Act.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1990/UKpga_19900018_en_1.htm
That's a section 1 for scanning in the first place, and a section 3 if it kills any processes it finds. You could even argue a case for section 2 but it probably wouldn't hold up.

robowurmz
19 Jan 2010, 11:48
My running processes currently include apache web server and mysql running code and database for software that's under a non-disclosure agreement, and firefox browser with active sessions to my eBay, Paypal, and bank. Unless VAC clearly states what it's doing beforehand and allows you to close any sensitive processes down before it starts scanning, i'm pretty sure it's technically breaking the law in the UK under the 1990 Computer Misuse Act.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1990/UKpga_19900018_en_1.htm
That's a section 1 for scanning in the first place, and a section 3 if it kills any processes it finds. You could even argue a case for section 2 but it probably wouldn't hold up.
Steam's EULA clearly states that VAC is active and will scan running processes. VAC uses a delayed ban system, and will not kill any processes running. What will happen however, is that your Steam account will be infracted for misuse.
VAC scans only for recognised cheating software, not heuristically (for specific code routines, etc) - therefore there is little-to-no chance of false positives, and even less chance of seeing any of the workings of a process (such as your database software).
Remember that the computer misuse act only really applies to unauthorised conduct - accepting the EULA when installing negates any claim of scanning being illegal.
Furthermore, couldn't you say the same of an antivirus or anti-spyware scanner? Most these days scan running processes, and quite often terminate suspicious ones too. By accepting the EULA of those AV programs, you also negate the claims.

Plasma
19 Jan 2010, 12:50
My running processes currently include apache web server and mysql running code and database for software that's under a non-disclosure agreement, and firefox browser with active sessions to my eBay, Paypal, and bank.
That... what?
You can't honestly be trying to say you think VAC actually examines your running processes and uploads any and all data in them to an online server!
I mean, I've heard of rubbish reasons to dislike Steam, but that one really takes the cake!

robowurmz
19 Jan 2010, 22:03
That... what?
You can't honestly be trying to say you think VAC actually examines your running processes and uploads any and all data in them to an online server!
I mean, I've heard of rubbish reasons to dislike Steam, but that one really takes the cake!
I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that M3ntal does not know anything about Steam?
Imagine you have no previous experience with Steam, and you hear that VAC "Scans your processes". What does that imply to you?

Metal Alex
20 Jan 2010, 00:29
For those of us who like paying for a game, then paying again for the contents of the game?
That only applies depending on the distributor.
Team Fortress 2 has quite some years behind it, and it has downloadable content... Only that it's free, and developed by Valve itself. In fact, it's simply released as patches. They include new maps new game modes, new weapons, new cosmetic items, systems to get them, rebalancing considering people's reactions, they recently started to develope bots for offline games (doing a heck of a job so far, they are quite good), and tons and tons of achievements for each class. Nothing was to be payed. Oh, also, the game is around 10€ nowadays. And even got many sales lately.
The fault comes from the distibutors themselves. They are the ones setting what's DLC and what's not. Valve just added that to Steam because the developers demanded it. After all, those are their customers, too.

SupSuper
20 Jan 2010, 04:18
My only issue with Steam is that it can still very slow and buggy. Worst case it decides to throw one of its hissy fits where games perpetually get stuck "Preparing to start" or are just "unavailable" and you're left without your game library for a while.

robowurmz
20 Jan 2010, 11:32
My only issue with Steam is that it can still very slow and buggy. Worst case it decides to throw one of its hissy fits where games perpetually get stuck "Preparing to start" or are just "unavailable" and you're left without your game library for a while.
This is one of my problems with it now and again. Thankfully, it's easily remedied (wait for a while/delete ClientRegistry.blob file) most of the time.

KRD
20 Jan 2010, 12:11
What can I do when it starts hogging my CPU for no reason at all?
http://www.shrani.si/t/3T/z/12owN38H/steam-sucks.jpg (http://www.shrani.si/?3T/z/12owN38H/steam-sucks.png)

SupSuper
21 Jan 2010, 12:09
This is one of my problems with it now and again. Thankfully, it's easily remedied (wait for a while/delete ClientRegistry.blob file) most of the time.That's often enough to cost me a gaming session.
What can I do when it starts hogging my CPU for no reason at all?
http://www.shrani.si/t/3T/z/12owN38H/steam-sucks.jpg (http://www.shrani.si/?3T/z/12owN38H/steam-sucks.png)You can try lowering its priority.

robowurmz
21 Jan 2010, 20:33
Funnily enough, since I opted into the Steam Beta Client I've had much less bugs and it seems easier on the system too.
Although, try at your own risk - it's still in Beta.

M3ntal
24 Jan 2010, 10:58
That... what?
You can't honestly be trying to say you think VAC actually examines your running processes and uploads any and all data in them to an online server!
I mean, I've heard of rubbish reasons to dislike Steam, but that one really takes the cake!
I'd make the obvious Portal joke, but i think we're a few years past that now.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't intentionally commit espionage, some hacker would have spotted it and posted the fact everywhere, and Valve would have a PR nightmare. My point was that i've signed contracts saying i will keep my work secure and not let anyone/anything else have access to it. This means for example if my SQL server crashes it's illegal for me to click the button to send an error report to Microsoft, as it may include sensitive data loaded in MySQL's allocated RAM at the time.
Sure i can scrutinise every EULA and research the finest details of how every piece of software works, but there are only 24 hours in a day so a more sensible solution is to assume the worst of everything and act as such. For all i know VAC does examine running processes and uploads data it finds to an online server, maybe to compare it with a database of known game hacks or whatever. I can either do some research to find out exactly how VAC works, or i can play a non-Steam game during work breaks. I'll take the easier solution.
robowurms has alleviated some of my concerns, but i can't really afford to take the word of some guy on a forum when legal liabilities are involved.
I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that M3ntal does not know anything about Steam?
Imagine you have no previous experience with Steam, and you hear that VAC "Scans your processes". What does that imply to you?
I've had a Steam account since Half-Life 2 came out but not heard of VAC until this thread. It's not a major issue now i know about it, but i was looking forward to bossing a few levels of ABE with my lunch. It just means i'll have to play it on weekends instead.
I can see the advantages Steam brings - buying games without having to pay for the middle men and not having to re-buy them when your disc gets scratched being 2 of my favourites. I just wish it could do this without removing my consumer rights and inadvertantly breaking the law on my behalf.
Furthermore, couldn't you say the same of an antivirus or anti-spyware scanner? Most these days scan running processes, and quite often terminate suspicious ones too. By accepting the EULA of those AV programs, you also negate the claims.
The main difference is i'm aware of AV products doing that, it's what i expect of them. Hence i can happily use one when it is safe to do so.
I wouldn't necessarily expect my games to behave the same way, especially since i'm not big on online multiplayers and tend to prefer single player storyline based games. All i'd expect out of Steam is to verify i have bought the game, then leave me to it. Why would they even care if i did use a hack for those? I'd only be cheating against myself.

MtlAngelus
24 Jan 2010, 17:19
I'd make the obvious Portal joke, but i think we're a few years past that now.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't intentionally commit espionage, some hacker would have spotted it and posted the fact everywhere, and Valve would have a PR nightmare. My point was that i've signed contracts saying i will keep my work secure and not let anyone/anything else have access to it. This means for example if my SQL server crashes it's illegal for me to click the button to send an error report to Microsoft, as it may include sensitive data loaded in MySQL's allocated RAM at the time.
Sure i can scrutinise every EULA and research the finest details of how every piece of software works, but there are only 24 hours in a day so a more sensible solution is to assume the worst of everything and act as such. For all i know VAC does examine running processes and uploads data it finds to an online server, maybe to compare it with a database of known game hacks or whatever. I can either do some research to find out exactly how VAC works, or i can play a non-Steam game during work breaks. I'll take the easier solution.
robowurms has alleviated some of my concerns, but i can't really afford to take the word of some guy on a forum when legal liabilities are involved.
I've had a Steam account since Half-Life 2 came out but not heard of VAC until this thread. It's not a major issue now i know about it, but i was looking forward to bossing a few levels of ABE with my lunch. It just means i'll have to play it on weekends instead.
I can see the advantages Steam brings - buying games without having to pay for the middle men and not having to re-buy them when your disc gets scratched being 2 of my favourites. I just wish it could do this without removing my consumer rights and inadvertantly breaking the law on my behalf.
The main difference is i'm aware of AV products doing that, it's what i expect of them. Hence i can happily use one when it is safe to do so.
I wouldn't necessarily expect my games to behave the same way, especially since i'm not big on online multiplayers and tend to prefer single player storyline based games. All i'd expect out of Steam is to verify i have bought the game, then leave me to it. Why would they even care if i did use a hack for those? I'd only be cheating against myself.
The way I understand it, VAC only actually runs when you enter a VAC secured online server on an online multiplayer game. VAC is never running during single player games, and as far as I know it also doesn't run when you enter a non-VAC secured server, so you can still play online without VAC scanning your system so far as you don't join a secured server. It might possibly run on games that include an online leaderboard of sorts, but I don't really know for sure.

franpa
25 Jan 2010, 13:41
It would be incredibly stupid to upload each process to a remote server to analyze them, hackers would just make there programs intentionally consume a lot of RAM/Page File so that it never ever gets the chance to finish uploading unless your on a ubber fast connection.
Also, unless they deprioritized it, would have a noticeable impact on various countrys like Australia for instance as not everyone here has ADSL 2 or 8mbit ADSL 1 etc. and our pitiful upload speeds would not be able to handle game data as well as what VAC requests.
The best approach is a offline client with a offline database that gets updated periodically.

M3ntal
26 Jan 2010, 01:53
It would be incredibly stupid to upload each process to a remote server to analyze them, hackers would just make there programs intentionally consume a lot of RAM/Page File so that it never ever gets the chance to finish uploading unless your on a ubber fast connection.It would be even more stupid to create a hack that uses up all your RAM while you are trying to play a game, but yes, i agree that uploading all your processes to be checked would be a bit silly.
The best approach is a offline client with a offline database that gets updated periodically.
I think your missing the point.

franpa
26 Jan 2010, 14:09
Well with the best approach that I described, none of your data is sent to anyone at all unless it is a known hack/cheating tool for Steam.

SupSuper
26 Jan 2010, 16:39
It would be incredibly stupid to upload each process to a remote server to analyze them, hackers would just make there programs intentionally consume a lot of RAM/Page File so that it never ever gets the chance to finish uploading unless your on a ubber fast connection.
Also, unless they deprioritized it, would have a noticeable impact on various countrys like Australia for instance as not everyone here has ADSL 2 or 8mbit ADSL 1 etc. and our pitiful upload speeds would not be able to handle game data as well as what VAC requests.
The best approach is a offline client with a offline database that gets updated periodically.That is probably how it already works. Steam's always running for any VAC-enabled game, so it probably keeps the whole VAC stuff that checks your processes when a VAC-server requests it, and if something's suspicious, reports it over to Valve at a random time so it doesn't get in the way of any gaming and hackers can't easily predict and block it. No silly transfer whatsits, no constant needless reporting.

M3ntal
27 Jan 2010, 03:01
Well with the best approach that I described, none of your data is sent to anyone at all unless it is a known hack/cheating tool for Steam.
Unless i know any different i have to act as though they've taken the worst approach.
My point was that i've signed contracts saying i will keep my work secure and not let anyone/anything else have access to it...
...there are only 24 hours in a day so a more sensible solution is to assume the worst of everything and act as such...
...I can either do some research to find out exactly how VAC works, or i can play a non-Steam game during work breaks...
...i can't really afford to take the word of some guy on a forum when legal liabilities are involved.
Suggesting the best approach is completely irrelevant to this discussion. In fact, not a single thing you said in that post has any relevance as i was giving a speculative example to help explain the real point, which you clearly missed.

Metal Alex
27 Jan 2010, 21:00
Unless i know any different i have to act as though they've taken the worst approach.
Suggesting the best approach is completely irrelevant to this discussion. In fact, not a single thing you said in that post has any relevance as i was giving a speculative example to help explain the real point, which you clearly missed.
I think you are getting this wrong... Call me someone obsessed on details and that, but 710613 seems quite low on franpa.

Melon
27 Jan 2010, 21:22
I think you are getting this wrong... Call me someone obsessed on details and that, but 710613 seems quite low on franpa.
That's the post number.

franpa
28 Jan 2010, 13:01
I think you are getting this wrong... Call me someone obsessed on details and that, but 710613 seems quite low on franpa.
Ar... Are you suggesting it should be lower? -.-

Metal Alex
29 Jan 2010, 01:01
That's the post number.
My point still stands.

Paul.Power
31 Jan 2010, 10:11
Wow, this went off-topic and all I did was read it.

M3ntal
1 Feb 2010, 03:14
I think you are getting this wrong... Call me someone obsessed on details and that, but 710613 seems quite low on franpa.
That's the post number.
My point still stands.
franpa won the award for making a particular post, the ID of that post is 710613, ie, the 710613th post made on this forum. http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=710613. Notice the number on the end of the URL, or quote his post in a reply and notice the same ID next to his name in the QUOTE tag.
My bad for assuming everyone would know this, it's not something that's unmissably obvious.

Metal Alex
2 Feb 2010, 00:24
franpa won the award for making a particular post, the ID of that post is 710613, ie, the 710613th post made on this forum. http://forum.team17.co.uk/showpost.php?p=710613. Notice the number on the end of the URL, or quote his post in a reply and notice the same ID next to his name in the QUOTE tag.
My bad for assuming everyone would know this, it's not something that's unmissably obvious.
I am aware since Melon pointed it out. Still seems low for franpa.

MtlAngelus
2 Feb 2010, 07:37
I am aware since Melon pointed it out. Still seems low for franpa.
You make no sense my good sir.

MAXTRAXv3
2 Feb 2010, 17:47
steam cleint has alot of updates to fix the problems it has, i would buy games froms steam becuase it cheaper to by $20 if not more
only thing i hate is the download factor, but meh its still cheaper

Metal Alex
2 Feb 2010, 18:58
You make no sense my good sir.
I was kinda meaning that the fact franpa had 710613 posts like that looked low. Then Melon showed me who's boss by pointing it was the post number. Then I said my original point still stood, with 710613 looking low.
But since nobody seemed to understand that, I guess I failed hard to deliver.
I guess I'm no better than franpa :c

Alien King
2 Feb 2010, 19:11
I was kinda meaning that the fact franpa had 710613 posts like that looked low.
I don't think you realise just how big seven hundred and ten thousand is.*
The person with the most posts is Akuryou (at 12071 according to the member's list).
...
Bloody hell that's a lot. I remember a time when svenneundulat had the most at around 6000.
*Of course mathematically speaking, it's trivial to define numbers much bigger and 710000 isn't that big, but in comparison to everyday numbers, it's pretty damn big

Plasma
2 Feb 2010, 20:11
I was kinda meaning that the fact franpa had 710613 posts like that looked low.
Franpa has 710,613 posts?! Oh god, that means everyone else in the entire history of the forum combined made about... negative 220,00 posts, according to the main page!
Bloody hell that's a lot. I remember a time when svenneundulat had the most at around 6000.
Well it is extremely high. I mean, it's an entire 30% more than the previous top poster.
Who we can presume to be me. Since I'm apparently 60 posts away from it. And because I like boasting about highly minor details!

Metal Alex
2 Feb 2010, 21:47
It was called a joke :c
SHAME ON MEEEEE

Alien King
2 Feb 2010, 23:39
Well it is extremely high. I mean, it's an entire 30% more than the previous top poster.
Eh? The previous top poster was svenneundulat if I recall correctly. Akuryou overtook him a while ago.
Since svenn's postcount is in the range 5900-6000, it holds that Aku's postcount is over 100% more than the previous top poster.
If you mean the next highest then that would be AndrewTaylor and I'm not going to bother to check his post count. It's between 9000 and 9500 though. That would be close to 30% more.

franpa
3 Feb 2010, 14:38
Franpa has 710,613 posts?! Oh god, that means everyone else in the entire history of the forum combined made about... negative 220,00 posts, according to the main page!
The post number they talk about, is the post number of my post, not the number of posts I have made. First post is post 1 regardless of who made it, Second post is post 2 regardless of who made it, etc.

Alien King
3 Feb 2010, 15:00
The post number they talk about, is the post number of my post, not the number of posts I have made. First post is post 1 regardless of who made it, Second post is post 2 regardless of who made it, etc.
I think Plasma knows that.

Metal Alex
3 Feb 2010, 21:08
The post number they talk about, is the post number of my post, not the number of posts I have made. First post is post 1 regardless of who made it, Second post is post 2 regardless of who made it, etc.
... I've learned my lesson. BUT OH GOD, it's so tempting.

Fhqwhgads
19 Feb 2010, 23:25
What can I do when it starts hogging my CPU for no reason at all?
http://www.shrani.si/t/3T/z/12owN38H/steam-sucks.jpg (http://www.shrani.si/?3T/z/12owN38H/steam-sucks.png)
how can you be sure it's steam when you are running antivir, firefox etc. at the same time.
Antivir is a scanner it constantly scans and constantly consumes system performance....

MrBunsy
20 Feb 2010, 02:49
You can look up the CPU usage of individual processes. And I've occasionally seen steam use an entire core for no reason until you close one of its windows.

KRD
20 Feb 2010, 12:18
What Bunsy says. Process Explorer, the System Information window of which is in the screenshot, is a nifty utility to have for doing just that. Also, my systems are kept obsessively clean and updates, virus scans, defrag and the like only run when I want them to.
Avira has, save for its update servers taking unusually long to respond lately, served me well enough and has never once had a random CPU usage outburst like Steam does. Neither has Firefox, at least not since I completely forbade it to run Flash.

Metal Alex
20 Feb 2010, 13:36
What Bunsy says. Process Explorer, the System Information window of which is in the screenshot, is a nifty utility to have for doing just that. Also, my systems are kept obsessively clean and updates, virus scans, defrag and the like only run when I want them to.
Avira has, save for its update servers taking unusually long to respond lately, served me well enough and has never once had a random CPU usage outburst like Steam does. Neither has Firefox, at least not since I completely forbade it to run Flash.
You can try to ask their customer support, I guess. Don't ask me how to contact, though, I didn't need it yet :p

Muzer
1 Mar 2010, 18:53
Does Steam work under Wine? I can't be bothered to look (which would actually be very easy, but meh).

Cathulhu
2 Mar 2010, 03:27
Yes, Steam and Steam games work under Wine, although Valve does not officially support Wine.

yakuza
2 Mar 2010, 10:23
Does Steam work under Wine? I can't be bothered to look (which would actually be very easy, but meh).
I checked and I have the detailed answer, but I can't be bothered to paste (which would actually be very easy, but meh)

bonz
2 Mar 2010, 22:58
Does Steam work under Wine? I can't be bothered to look (which would actually be very easy, but meh).
Steam:
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=1554
Games by Valve:
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?bIsQueue=false&bIsRejected=false&sClass=vendor&iId=1433&sAction=view&sTitle=View+Developer
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?bIsQueue=false&bIsRejected=false&sClass=vendor&iId=262&sAction=view&sTitle=View+Developer
I checked and I have the detailed answer, but I can't be bothered to paste (which would actually be very easy, but meh)
Hehehe! :D

Muzer
3 Mar 2010, 18:55
I checked and I have the detailed answer, but I can't be bothered to paste (which would actually be very easy, but meh)
Congratulations! You just wasted your own time!
And thanks bonz, I hope the new one will work :D

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