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sallyann
16 Feb 2007, 13:00
Do you employ older people or women at team 17?
It seems to me that the computer games industry is very much a young mans industry. I have older relatives who learned computer games development in the early days of the 80's when things were kicking off and despite being hugely talented and experienced they are now finding it hard to get work... why is this?
Sally ann

Metal Alex
16 Feb 2007, 13:47
There is one thing I think about this. The early people learn things, the better they'll remember it.
I mean, if you used that technology since you were young, you'll use it more naturally... And therefore be more expert.
Of course, this doesn't mean it happens everytime, just that this is taken in consideration.
BUT, as for T17 itself, The own Spadge is 40 years old... so I guess it's not like this everytime...
(if you don't know, he's a big boss of Team 17)

sallyann
16 Feb 2007, 13:59
thank you for replying
but i think you must be young to think that if you learn things younger you are gonna be better at it... that is just not true, you can learn things at any age, and if you have an aptitude and talent you can be brilliant at it, anyway being in your thirties is not old. I know someone who has taken up painting at 50 and is amazing at it.... just goes to show not to write people off at any age. Some people are born with amazing talents, others can be mediocre their whole lives, you have either got it or you havent... and it
stays with you for life!
sallyann

Metal Alex
16 Feb 2007, 14:20
That was not my point:
It's cientifically tested, that at younger ages, the brain retains more information about the things you learn...
For example you'll learn any language easier when you are younger, before you get used to only one.
As you said, people can have amazing talents, but they cannot get the 100% profit of it that easily... I'm just talking on probabilities, not exact people.
Also, as for the artist, even the youngest kids can do doodles... I mean, pencils existed before computers, so it's not exactly the same case.

AndrewTaylor
16 Feb 2007, 14:44
I think it's true that young men are generally better at the kind of advanced computer usage that you need to code games or use professional art packages than women or older people are, because men's brains tend to work that way a bit more often and because older people haven't grown up with computers and so fewer of them have really got to grips with them.
That's probably a large part of why the industry's a bit lopsided, much like science, but that alone wouldn't explain why "hugely talented and experienced [people] are now finding it hard to get work". That sounds a bit stupid to me; I would want "hugely talented and experienced" people working for me. My initial speculation would be that people could be generalising based on the above trend, but that would just be discrimination in sheep's clothing, so to speak.
I'm not going to state any strong opinions either way because I don't know anything much about the industry.

Cyclaws
16 Feb 2007, 16:38
I think it's true that young men are generally better at the kind of advanced computer usage that you need to code games or use professional art packages than women
I disagree with that part. I don't believe men are better at it, I just believe men are more inclined to program as a career, than women.

Squirminator2k
16 Feb 2007, 18:59
It seems to me that the computer games industry is very much a young mans industry.
This may well have something to do with the fact that it is predominantly young men who play videogames. You will probably notice correlating trends with other industries - the so-called "hobbies & crafts" industry may well be a predominantly older woman's industry, an assumption I make not because I am a sexist, ageist pig - I'm not - but because almost all of the people I know who are in to hobbies & crafts are older women (with the notable exception for my friend Chaz, but then he's a bit of an oddball). This instead makes me an assuming, presumptuous pig, or vindicatum impudens sus to use the original Latin name, which is an entirely different animal altogether.
Not to say women don't play games either, but then this is probably because there aren't as many games that appeal to women, what with them being predominantly designed by young men. It's a vicious cycle, which is like a unicycle but pointier and more likely to cause injury.
I have older relatives who learned computer games development in the early days of the 80's when things were kicking off and despite being hugely talented and experienced they are now finding it hard to get work... why is this?
No idea, but then this isn't just something that is happening to "older" people. I had many interesting conversations with attendees of the London Game Careers Fair back in October (I even made a couple of friends). There were a lot of people who had recently finished game development courses, or courses relating to game development. There were also people who had been qualified for a while. Between these two groups, about half of the people I spoke to - good, clever, talented people - could not find work in the industry. The majority of these people were young. In fact the oldest person I recall seeing at the event was probably Spadge*, and he quite obviously already works in the industry.
If you don't mind my asking, are you looking at working within the industry yourself? Or are you merely curious about the potential sexism/ageism therein? I wouldn't automatically assume that a company, or indeed an industry, that employs mostly young men is either sexist or ageist. Sometimes that's just the way the dice roll. My immediate family comprises mostly of women, but that is not to say that my family is somehow sexist against men.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
* If you never hear from me again, you can assume that either Spadge or one of his associates has travelled down to Luton to kill me. I would like to take this opportunity to say that I harbour, deep within my soul, strong feelings for everyone on this forum. These are largely feelings of indifference, with at least one instance of malice. Possibly I like some of you.
I can hear a tapping at the door. My time is nigh. Tell my family I love them.

AndrewTaylor
16 Feb 2007, 19:20
I disagree with that part. I don't believe men are better at it, I just believe men are more inclined to program as a career, than women.
In my experience at least, they are. But then, there's not much difference between "men are better at programming" and "men are more inclined to programme" because if you don't enjoy something you don't get good, and generally if you don't get good at something you'll just get frustrated pretty soon.

wigwam the
16 Feb 2007, 20:02
In my experience at least, they are. But then, there's not much difference between "men are better at programming" and "men are more inclined to programme" because if you don't enjoy something you don't get good, and generally if you don't get good at something you'll just get frustrated pretty soon.
hmm... surely you don't mean all men were born amazing games developers and women weren't. but you are right that there are certainly more men, it seems that most games are aimed at men, well, not the games as such but the consoles- most of the 360 adverts I saw in the uk had thier focus on things like football and tomb raider, which are not stereotypically girly things. not to mention most magazines/websites/shows about games seem aimed at men, and use women to advertise. well, that's probably the reason why. ... I guess.

AndrewTaylor
16 Feb 2007, 20:39
hmm... surely you don't mean all men were born amazing games developers and women weren't.
In today's lesson, we learn the difference between an empirical observation and a sweeping and offensive generalisation.

sallyann
16 Feb 2007, 22:48
Thanks for the replies guys, but i would like to bet any money that if two guys turned up to be interviewed for the same job in the games industry, One in their 20's and one in their 50's, both with good portfolios, but the older guy with more experience. I would bet my life they would choose the younger guy anytime......
sallyann

M3ntal
17 Feb 2007, 04:56
Not necessarily. I dunno about the games industry, but i spent a year programming for Sun Microsystems, and i was the only guy in the dept under 30. The oldest was in his 60's.

bonz
17 Feb 2007, 05:49
i would like to bet any money that if two guys turned up to be interviewed for the same job in the games industry, One in their 20's and one in their 50's, both with good portfolios, but the older guy with more experience. I would bet my life they would choose the younger guy anytime
Bill Gates is 52.

sallyann
17 Feb 2007, 10:44
It would be very interesting -just as a little mini survey to know just how many of you out their working in computer games work with anyone over 45?

AndrewTaylor
17 Feb 2007, 11:07
Bill Gates is 52.
...And I wouldn't hire him.
Aside from the fact that his company produces some pretty poor flagship software, as far as I know he's not written one command in the last two decades.
Anyway, he wasn't 52 when he started out, was he, and it's not as if anyone can fire him.

Metal Alex
17 Feb 2007, 15:18
I disagree with that part. I don't believe men are better at it, I just believe men are more inclined to program as a career, than women.
fact. A friend studying (crap, forgot the exact name of the career in english :p) "programming" has only 4 women in there studying...
I mean, with that proportion, expect that there are more men working there...

AndrewTaylor
17 Feb 2007, 15:28
There was a module at university about computer simulation of molecular dynamics.
It was just me and three girls.

M3ntal
17 Feb 2007, 16:21
There is a huge difference between number of men and women studying programming at university though, there's no denying that.

Preasure
17 Feb 2007, 19:38
Thanks for the replies guys, but i would like to bet any money that if two guys turned up to be interviewed for the same job in the games industry, One in their 20's and one in their 50's, both with good portfolios, but the older guy with more experience. I would bet my life they would choose the younger guy anytime......
sallyann
It depends on what the company wants. Companies exist to make money, it's detrimental for them to take on inferior staff because of personal prejudice.
A gap between men and women exists because men are drawn more towards the industry. Computer games and IT are a very male field, as with areas such as construction and heavy industry. Nobody is stopping women working as programmers, it's just that few want to. It's the same with age - there are older IT workers out there, but there's just less of them. A majority of one group within an industry doesn't automatically mean there is discrimination, it often simply means that it appeals to that group more than others.

AndrewTaylor
17 Feb 2007, 21:07
Nobody is stopping women working as programmers
How do you know?

Metal Alex
17 Feb 2007, 22:03
How do you know?
Well, male programmers, as my friend says, would like to have more women... :p
But, in the case of my friend's, it may be because those 3 ones there are trolls D:

SupSuper
18 Feb 2007, 02:06
There are plenty of women in the game industry, but I've never seen any programmers. My high school class has more than 100 students yet I've only seen 2 or 3 girls in my classes. I suppose they don't fancy Physics much.

sallyann
18 Feb 2007, 15:12
Bill Gates is 52....and I wouldn't hire him????
Why not? and isn't that age discrimination? because somebody with the skills and talents to get where he has, must be made of pretty exceptional stuff..... if everything was taken away from him tomorrow I would like to bet he could start from scratch in another life and still become successful.... just 'cos he is now 52 does not mean he is not as capable as ever, probably more so as he now has experience on his side.
sallyann

AndrewTaylor
18 Feb 2007, 15:18
Bill Gates is 52....and I wouldn't hire him????
Yes, but only because I don't like him. Microsoft's business practises offend my sense of morality, and while I don't know how much input he personally has into them he does have the power to change them if he wanted to. And he doesn't. Maybe he can write great code, but Microsoft don't seem to be interested in doing that as long as adequate code will sell, and frequently the great code forces my computer to do things that I'd rather my computer didn't do. I think Microsoft, as a company, is a bully and is negligent. And Bill Gates chooses to do nothing about it. It's nothing to do with discrimination; I simply couldn't justify to myself paying someone who I know does business that way.
If everything was taken away from him tomorrow, that would amuse me greatly.

sallyann
18 Feb 2007, 15:28
ok - well thats not really age discrimination then ... you just don't like the guy!
But maybe there is a little of the green-eyed monster there... noticed a lot that blokes don't like people more successful than them, he he he!

AndrewTaylor
18 Feb 2007, 15:29
But maybe there is a little of the green-eyed monster there... noticed a lot that blokes don't like people more successful than them, he he he!
Idunno... I don't like that he's more successful that I am, but I like to that that's because I don't like him and not why I don't like him. I'd have a pretty barren CD collection if I took that attitude.

SupSuper
18 Feb 2007, 17:34
ok - well thats not really age discrimination then ... you just don't like the guy!
But maybe there is a little of the green-eyed monster there... noticed a lot that blokes don't like people more successful than them, he he he!I bet that's how emos got started.

sallyann
18 Feb 2007, 17:48
You mean you do not like his public persona! You do not know the guy at all to decide whether you like him or not. Do You? Or maybe you have tea with him regularly! he he! (only teasing)
Lets face it, we only know as much about the guy as the media want to tell us... a somewhat skewed perspective I daresay!
I notice up and coming young men are often very wary of older successful men.... its all that alpha male stuff!... vying to be top dog... which takes me back to my original point about age discrimination...how many 40+ peole do you work with????
Sallyann

Metal Alex
18 Feb 2007, 19:11
Lets face it, we only know as much about the guy as the media want to tell us... a somewhat skewed perspective I daresay!
well, the way he does his business is still there, and he was discriminating him not for his age, but for that...
just don't twist it like that, will you? you are trying to make him look like that or what? Seriously, I'm starting to think that this is an obsesion... no offence, but it looks like that... may Spadge could answer us, but untill then, you can try to find the T17 staff accounts on this forum, and find out their ages, in their profile...

Cyclaws
18 Feb 2007, 19:12
I notice up and coming young men are often very wary of older successful men.... its all that alpha male stuff!... vying to be top dog... which takes me back to my original point about age discrimination...how many 40+ peole do you work with????
Sallyann
I'm still a student at college, so I don't work with anyone, per say, but I can tell you my school is very good at not descriminating against age. Two out of four of my teachers are over 50+, and one of them is nearing 60.
And, although it's not the subject, I will just note that two out of four of my teachers are also female.

AndrewTaylor
18 Feb 2007, 19:32
You mean you do not like his public persona! You do not know the guy at all to decide whether you like him or not. Do You? Or maybe you have tea with him regularly! he he! (only teasing)
Of course I don't. Because I don't like him. I feel sure I've mentioned this...
Lets face it, we only know as much about the guy as the media want to tell us... a somewhat skewed perspective I daresay!
Well, I know he funds charity work as well. But he funds that charity work with money he makes as owner of a corporation that rips people off and aduses its monopolies and generally bullies people around, and it's not as if he gives an amount of money he'd ever notice had gone. I could sit here and cite examples of things Microsoft have done which I find abhorrent but it's not useful for either of us if this thread gets derailed into having a go at one person. The fact is that Gates is in a unique position to turn Microsoft from an almost universally hated company into a much liked one -- he has enough money now that he doesn't need it to turn a huge profit at any cost -- and he chooses to let it continue stamping all over the competition and generally bending and breaking the rules just so it can make a little more money. If this was all just media spin I reckon he of all people could afford the kickbacks and PR to make it go away, don't you? No, this is actual court judgements.
I mean, yeah, he might be perfectly agreeable company and he might be a simply delightful conversationalist. But so might Hitler have been for all I know, so I'm afraid I shall have to judge the man by his actions (or inactions).
how many 40+ peole do you work with????
Me? I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because I'm a scientific programmer. I work in a research department of a university, so everyone except about two people is a either postgrad student or is 40+.

sallyann
18 Feb 2007, 22:40
Woah Andrew!
I did not mean to upset you... that sure set you off on one!
;-)
Ok point taken... he he he! you don't like the guy and you seem to know plenty so i believe you! honest!
As for the other reply about me being obsessed yeah I suppose I am, but when you see good, hardworking people rejected purely on the grounds of age, plus because of their experience employers think they will be expensive.. it makes you sad! (in the literal sense!)
so sorry if i come over like that
Sally ann
p.s I live in leeds too!

bonz
19 Feb 2007, 00:37
I did not mean to upset you
Noone does, but always will. :)

AndrewTaylor
19 Feb 2007, 10:41
Woah Andrew!
I did not mean to upset you... that sure set you off on one!
;-)
Ok point taken... he he he! you don't like the guy and you seem to know plenty so i believe you! honest!
You didn't upset me, don't worry. I just don't really want people to get the impression that I don't think these things through before I make a judgement of someone.
(Perhaps we're both a bit obsessive...)

Luther
19 Feb 2007, 12:36
I'm 40. I'm not the oldest here either. Experience in the industry is a HUGE bonus for employment, not a negative in a way. Many of the people who work in the industry started (like me) about 20 years ago. The reason that there are more young people working in the games industry is that companies can find enough experienced staff, so they hire promising new talent.
I've never encouneted any age discrimination in the games industry. Every company I know hires staff based on ability.
Have your "hugely talented and experienced" friends applied to Team17 for a job?

sallyann
19 Feb 2007, 14:11
I don't know... I will have to ask...
The person I am thinking of is an older relative of mine. He used to be an art teacher then lecturer in art, then went freelance and got into games in the 90's. he worked with the Gollop brothers (Julian and Nick) who did a game called 'ufo enemy unknown' which he says got quite famous, and was employed by their company 'mythos games' and he did the artwork on magic and mayhem. but mythos went under when virgin split... so my uncle went on his own, he could not make his business work... i don't think sellin was his thing! But he said work was going abroad to Russia and such places. So he lost everything and has had to start again. But he has made a success of his decorating and property development business, he really has worked very hard, but what he really wants to do is get back into games and so is learning z brush. he also fell off a ladder last year and broke some ribs, so I would like to see him back sitting at a computer!
sally ann

bonz
19 Feb 2007, 14:38
Have your "hugely talented and experienced" friends applied to Team17 for a job?
We all know that you only need one talent to get hired by Team17. http://www.trailerparkboys.org/forums/Smileys/default/beer.gif

SupSuper
19 Feb 2007, 23:30
he worked with the Gollop brothers (Julian and Nick) who did a game called 'ufo enemy unknown' which he says got quite famous:eek:
:eek:
:eek:
That's AWESOME!

sallyann
19 Feb 2007, 23:54
That's AWESOME!
Is it???
Why???

Squirminator2k
19 Feb 2007, 23:57
Dan is a huge X-Com fan, and UFO: Enemy Unknown is the game that launched that franchise.
I also think (and I mean no disrespect to you, Sallyann, because you're very clearly passionate about the point you're trying to get across) that people where see discrimination wherever a particular group - be it an ethnic group, an age bracket, whatever - doesn't have as many "representatives" in a particular job, or field, or workplace. I think there's a huge hooplah over the political correctness of Equality, and people see two unrelated things, add them together and get a totally pointless answer. It's like 2 + 2 = 5, only worse. 2 + 2 = Hat Factory.
I could, for example, quite easily get funding from Channel 4 or the BBC to film a documentary about an under-represented group in the British job market. A group I happen to be a part of. With this money I could travel the country, interviewing representatives from companies and sectors, speak to MPs and spokespeople, and ultimately I would be no closer to finding out why ginger-haired people like myself are not as well-represented in many companies.
I'm taking it to its extremes, of course. But how long before someone does this seriously? It's already happening. Two people apply for a job. One is a man and one is a woman. The man has better qualifications (not a generalisation but as a case in this example) but they hire the woman because there are fewer women employed by the company at the moment. This happens all the time to people of different sexes, racial backgrounds, sexual preference. I had an interview a couple of years ago where I was all but told that the reason I didn't get the job was because I wasn't gay.
In another interview I was called by a smarmy git to be told I didn't get the job. As he hung up I heard him say "I just told that ginger tw--". So I may well film that documentary.

AndrewTaylor
19 Feb 2007, 23:58
That's AWESOME!
Is it???
Why???
Here's my guess...
http://realvg.org/display.php?type=reviews&id=5
(Guess who!)

sallyann
20 Feb 2007, 09:53
Yes, I know all about the x-com series. I have known Julian and Nick all my life so I know all about the history. It was Magic and Mayhem that my Uncle did all the artwork for... and his daughter Beth got to go on work experience when she was 16 helping make the sets for the beginning sequence of the game... Lucky thing I would have loved to do something like that....My uncles house was always full of teenagers, cos they were all dead keen to know what he was doing! After mythos liquidated my uncle did the artwork for the Kartouche educational programme "The Romans" by immersive education .. now that really was awsome! he was working freelance then and doing well but found it harder to get well paid work as companies were getting it cheaper abroad. Plus I don't think he is much of a business man!.We went to see Nick and Rhosinia last month, Julian and Reni now live in Bulgaria.
Sally ann

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