The competitive side of WA! [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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NAiL
24 Aug 2012, 00:50
WA is played competitively by hundreds of players and has been for the last decade. It's one of the oldest online multiplayer games there is! Sure, it's a great game to be played offline and with friends, but there is also a community of enthusiasts with a passion for the game who regularly compete against each other year after year!
Interested in playing WA competitively online? Please check out the following links:
www.tus-wa.com
www.normalnonoobs.com
www.wormolympics.com
www.2012.eac-wa.com/index.php?page=home
There is an opinion that WA has too small a community, and is too "luck based" a game to be played competitively online, I and many others would disagree.
This isn't Battlefield or StarCraft we are talking about.With the nearly zero significance this community has among other games and with the in fact uncompetetive since not entirely fair nature of this turn-based game that is Worms I am even surprised there are things like leagues in existance.
What does the significance of WA in comparison to other games have to do with anything? What does the size of an online community have to do with the fact that the game can be as competitive as any other game? Sure, you can't make a living from being a pro WA player like you can with SC2 and other games, but that doesnt detract in the slightest from the fact that there IS a significant number of people competing against each other on WA and have been for the last 10 years.
The way you talk about luck only shows your lack of awareness as to how this game is played competitively online. You don't understand how the league works. The (main) league (TUS) does not revolve around one scheme, the main league consists of a number of schemes (both roping and non roping), each player selects a scheme and both schemes are played.
Of course luck plays a role in certain schemes (as it does in other games), even still, most of the time, in fact the vast majority of the time, the better player wins, as shown in player statistics.
If you take a scheme like time trial rope race, there is no luck involved here, the fastest player wins.
The more a game is based on luck the less competetive it is. Pure logic. Why would professional players waste their time on a turn-based game based on luck?
Funny you should mention SC2 (which contains the same amount of luck, if not more luck than WA). The top Grandmaster players AT BEST will have a 65% win ratio at the end of a season. Take a look at the overall standings of the current league: www.tus-wa.com/leagues/classic-stats/?s=overall Notice the player at the top, Random00. He is one of the most consistent all round players there is, if not THE most. He has close to 1400 games played and his win ratio is almost 90%. Your argument that luck plays too much of a role to allow this game to be played competitively is wrong. Sure, there are surprises, but the majority of the time its the better player who wins.
Dario is one of the best Intermediate players there is, if not THE best. Even considering the fact that random placement can give an advantage/disadvantage to a player, whilst he was active on NNN his win ratios would often go into the 90%s. You see, there are certain players in the WA community who simply dominate. Some dominate at specific things like roping or sheep flying, others dominate in their ability to be outstanding, consistent, all round players. The fact that certain players can consistently win the majority of their games (to the extent of having win ratios in the 90%s) proves that WA is no game of luck, skill and strategy are the most prevalent features of this game.
Another example: Take a look at the overall BnG standings, note the player at the top "Komito", the undisputed champion of BnG. http://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/classic-stats/BnG-stats/ His win ratio is ridiculous, 98%.
If you have never played the game competitively, then you will obviously have no evidence on which to base the (false) accusation that WA is a game "too reliant on luck to be played competitively". Luck plays a minimal role in competitive WA because the better player will almost always be the victor (just like any other skill based game), and there are records and statistics to prove this.
I am not going to take the you-don't-know-Worms statements for not joining your silly oh-hey-this-game-is-so-competetive leagues. I am just not. Having played every single game in this series I most likely know it a lot better than any of the NNN members focusing on W:A.
You dont need to join a league in order to know Worms. What was said, is that in order to have a valid opinion on how a game is played online, you must be familiar with the online community. You, by your own admission, and by the statements you make, are not at all familiar with the online community of regular WA players, and are not familiar with how the game is played competitively online.
I have been told that I do not know the Worms series in the slightest until I join one of those leagues which is, in all due respect, utter nonsense.
Nobody is doubting your familiarity with the Worms series in general. I've only played a couple of Worms games myself, so your overall knowledge of the entire Worms series is definitely greater than mine, and probably most NNNers. But I am not talking about the Worms series, I am talking about one specific game that I have invested a lot of time into, WA. As a casual fan of the series, you simply do not understand WA to the same extent of that of someone who has been playing the game day in day out for the best part of 6 years with the most skilled players (along with everyone else too). There is nothing wrong with not being as clued up about a game as someone who has put in a hundred times more hours into it than you have. What is wrong, is, as a casual fan of the Worms series, claiming to have the same amount of knowledge as people who have been playing the game hardcore for the better part of 10 years. Its simply not possible.
There is the entire series that I have played with friends online and offline for years, on a high level, but definitely not competetive, and there is this small community around W:A thinking it were as much competetive as StarCraft while they are not being recognized at all. Are you sure you aren't the ones being ignorant after all?
How can you say you've played this game on a "high level", when you've never played with players of the highest caliber? If you frequently play with high level players, then you will eventually learn enough about mechanics and strategy to beat these players and thus say that you have played the game at a "high level" (playing at a high level does not constitute being owned by pros)!. If your experience is restricted to "playing offline and with friends", then clearly you have not played this game on a high level with high caliber players. Even if you were to play the odd game with "pro" players now and then, that is beside the point. It takes YEARS of playing REGULARLY with the top players until you become a top player yourself. Same for Starcraft, same for Battlefield, same for WA.
When did anyone say that WA is as competitive as Starcraft? Nobody said that. Since you mentioned it though, WA is just as competitive as Starcraft (which I also play). Don't confuse the competitiveness of a game with the number of players playing a game, or the sizes of prizes for tournaments (EAC 2012 is underway with a $400 prize pool!) www.2012.eac-wa.com/index.php?page=home). We know that we are a tiny "community" compared to others as you keep saying, that is irrelevant. The size of a community has no bearing on how competitive a game is. People try their hardest to outwit and outplay their opponent on WA just as much as they do on Starcraft.
May as well mention Worm Olympics whilst im here. You are aware of WO right? Hundreds of tournaments hosted every year. Great competitive fun. Check it out: www.wormolympics.com
You are good to go at knowing the game if you are playing it mostly offline with friends or even singleplayer, joining tournaments or leagues is not a requirement to any video game to learn about its mechanics.
Sure, you're good to play the game and learn the basic mechanics offline, but if you want to be able to compete against the best players in the world, you must have experience of playing with the best players in the world.
There are small intricacies that you simply do not discover offline or "with friends".
Are you aware of Rubberworm and Project X? You wouldn't ever know about these mods if you didn't play online or browse community forums. There are a whole ton of new mechanics and gameplay characteristics enabled by these mods that you would never, ever experience having not played the game online.
If you already know all of the game mechanics without having to have played online, you should be able to answer these random questions about WA mechanics. Bear in mind I have chosen these examples due to their ability to be answered concisely with words. Many mechanics require you to be in game to be able to demonstrate them properly, along with all the inexplicable strategy you learn as you play the game more with skilled players.
1. How many "stages" are there to the "edge" of a pixel? How do you know when your worm has reached the first "stage" of the "edge"?
2. Your worm is trapped against a wall by an enemy worm. The enemy worm is on top of your worm yet jumping won't set you free. What is the other way of freeing a worm trapped by another worm?
3. How many different jumps can be performed by jumping from a pixel? (excluding the vertical jump that doesnt cause the worm to change horizontal position).
4. When is the "ideal" time to use a freeze in a Team17? Obviously this is subjective, but there is a specific moment in which using freeze can be extremely beneficial, do you know when this moment is? Any experienced Team17 player knows the answer to this question.
If you are fully aware of strategy and mechanics as you claim, you should have no problem answering these questions. If you can't thats ok, but don't claim to know everything about the game mechanics and strategy when you don't.
Look at this Worms guide created by Dario. This guide beautifully explains in detail many of the game and weapon mechanics found in WA. www.normalnonoobs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3 There is simply no way that someone could acquire all of this knowledge merely from playing offline or with friends.
You see what im getting at here is there is so much to learn about the mechanics and strategy of WA, that there is no way you'll learn everything about the game simply by playing with friends and offline. I wont even bother going into the art of roping and the fact that you simply cannot learn to rope like a pro without coming online and practising with the pros. Playing offline will only take you so far. This is the same for ANY game that is played online, you need to play online, discuss and learn from other players in order to improve. I fail to see why you'd think it would be any different for WA.
The game isn't going to make it for another decade
This game has already far outlived its expiry date, and for one reason, its a pretty perfect game. Its one of the oldest online games there is and its STILL being updated. Its kept alive by a handful of dedicated programmers and a small, yet loyal and loving community. There are big things headed for WA in the near future, this game will definitely still be kicking in 10 years time.

xCrazyx
24 Aug 2012, 01:14
Great post Nail :) I wanted to make a similar post, but the ignorance of certain members in the previous thread had me ruled out. I'm glad to see you're still so passionate for this game. This passion is what makes Thurbo's statement about the game not making it for another decade wrong.

Extremist2
24 Aug 2012, 03:56
You certainly shot Thurbo's point about competitiveness all to heck. :p
However, the way you've made your point helps my point about old-time/competitive/hardcore players in comparison to new players.
I already knew about all those leagues/clans/tourneys. But I didn't find them just by booting up the game and entering Anything Goes, which is the method by which most new players will first experience WA online.
I got the jist of the clan/league system from playing in AG, but that was several years ago. Info about the mods and the Worm Olympics was gained solely from reading this forum, which is not widely known outside of hardcore Worms fans.
I've been playing the game on & off since at least 2004, plus the Nintendo 64 version before that. I've earned Full Wormage without hacks.
Back in the day, I would go into AG, and have about a one-third chance of running into a really good non-NNN player. I got to my current skill level (above average at most normal schemes, average at roping) mostly by playing against those players, with longevity also helping.
Since a few years ago, whenever I go into AG, I now only have about a 5% chance of running into a really good non-NNN player. This has caused my skill level to stagnate. I'm only about 5-10 percent better overall than I was before this talent decline happened.
Although some of those high-level players have retired, I still see the majority active, but not in an obvious way. They now organize games almost exclusively outside of the "standard" method through either clans/leagues/IRC/IM or through WormNET via snooper software, which I find to be something of a segregating tool - not only does it allows users to ignore the "standard" method crowd until a situation or person that they're familiar with shows up, new players do not know of snoopers.
This divide is crippling new players. The really good players rarely interact with them, and they have little insight into the competitive system. Plus, the longer it goes on like this, the more turned off new players will be from the competitive system (if and when they discover it) because of a wide skill gap.
I've made my point without flaming and with clarity. Now, if you're willing, could you try and disprove it? :/

cHAKKmAN
24 Aug 2012, 12:52
You certainly shot Thurbo's point about competitiveness all to heck. :p
From which post are these quotes taken anyway? Actually i've never seen anything from Thurbo, and i play this game for 6 years now... i've seen him quite a lot trolling these forums though, and giving his "wonderful" inputs while W:R was in its beta stage. So my advice would be to come to Wormnet 1 and see for yourself whether this game is still competetive, and whether it is still active. And if you find it is neither of those then you got to have lost your sense for reality or you're completely ignorant. :)

Thurbo
24 Aug 2012, 13:00
Gosh NAiL, that was some pretty ignorant fail at trying to prove me that W:A is less based on luck than StarCraft right from the start. First off, every game does a little bit rely on luck to an extent and so does StarCraft. At the beginning of the match it may be seen a bit like rock scissors and paper since you do not know which tactic your opponent is going for. However a good player is capable of preparing himself for any possible situation and spy on their opponent when simultanously setting preparations for their own strategy, because this is what makes a good player in StarCraft. go to the SC2 forums and tell a StarCraft player that game is more based on luck than Worms, I dare you. (Though you are not granted access to those forums unless you bought the game, just on a sidenote.)
Worms has one player start out gaining a clear advantage over the other player and a physics engine which leads to outcomes which are with a too high extent unpredictable. Frankly, having a player winning 90% of the matches in your community is exactly what should not be the case, because this means there is a lack of players to be even close to the skills of that one player, which again is a result of a small community, if there are only hundreds of players world wide playing competitively like you say. StarCraft has millions, if not billions of players. There are many players close to the skills to the best player and winning 65% of matches is quite an accomplishment. Also, please stop bringing in rope races as an argument for no luck being involved. Did you know there is a StarCraft chess mode? We know that chess involves almost no luck at all, but I hope we can also agree that chess has as much to do with the gameplay of StarCraft as rope races with the gameplay of Worms. Namely, not much to actually nothing.
So getting this aside, I don't mind that you are enjoying the competitive side of your game and that you are keeping it alive. There is just absolutely one thing I hate and that's being called ignorant of the competitive side and called a noob and what not just because I am not interested in playing the game competively. I am not. I have spent years playing W:A and while I do enjoy it more playing it with friends, that does in no way mean I were ignorant of the competive side.
I have whatched streams of many tournaments online. One time I even got in contact with the hosts of a torunament and designed a trophy emblem for it. You are just constantly jumping to conclusions because of my opinion of the game which I am not going to change. It is rather a party game than a serious online multiplayer game, period.
Whatching those streams, I have seen players that were about to win losing when their worms were accidentally knocked into the water from a mine or another worm by a self-caused explosion, completely unpredictably. You know the worst shot ever videos by cueshark, don't you? This is what happens too often when you play Worms. It involves too much risk to be played competitively for my taste. I love playing it for those events, quite admittedly, just not competitively.
Also I have indeed come aware of most of the weird technical issues of W:A's physics listed in that guide, mainly from playing the game and discussions, but they only add to my disliking of the physics. I find it funny that the guide didn't mention that gravity emulates underwater physics by apparently increasing air friction and have the jet pack require more fuel while the opposite should happen. On the other hand I did not know that worms couldn't take fall damage from certain weapons unless they hit a pixel before landing and that Dragon Balls could travel through landscape, quite shocking to constantly get aware of more bugs that are also used as legetimate exploits by competitive players.
And lastly Extremist, I thought you did recieve an answer, by one of the most respected and talented players even! You are ignorant, you are not playing W:A often enough and the solution to your suggestion is to join a league and shut up.

cHAKKmAN
24 Aug 2012, 13:09
So getting this aside, I don't mind that you are enjoying the competitive side of your game and that you are keeping it alive. There is just absolutely one thing I hate and that's being called ignorant of the competitive side and called a noob and what not just because I am not interested in playing the game competively. I am not. I have spent years playing W:A and while I do enjoy it more playing it with friends, that does in no way mean I were ignorant of the competive side.
I have whatched streams of many tournaments online. One time I even got in contact with the hosts of a torunament and designed a trophy emblem for it. You are just constantly jumping to conclusions because of my opinion of the game which I am not going to change. It is rather a party game than a serious online multiplayer game, period.
Sorry, but that's completely ignorant. You judge from watching streams, without probably having even gotten into strategies of the different schemes. My advice: Get into it again, play it online, play competetive, play leagues. And play different schemes. And then judge again.

'HHC
24 Aug 2012, 14:12
Whatching those streams, I have seen players that were about to win losing when their worms were accidentally knocked into the water from a mine or another worm by a self-caused explosion, completely unpredictably.
There is not a weapon in worms that acts completely at random. There's even ways to avoid getting hit by armageddon. If you lose a worm cause of a self-hit, obviously you've done something wrong.
You know the worst shot ever videos by cueshark, don't you?
There's a reason as to why each of those shots fails.
Btw, if you've only watched a few competitive games on stream and made an emblem for a tournament... you can't possibly say that you are an 'insider' in competitive play.
I know it's not nice to be called ignorant. But when you have virtually 0 experience in competition and admit that you just don't play for competitions, then yeah, you can't possibly be aware of what competitive worms really is.
That makes you... ignorant.. in this matter.. :confused:
Your input is nice, but because of the above, it's rather presumptious to present it as FACT.
On the issue,
Why can a competitive game not include luck?
Is there any professional sport or any 'professional' game that doesn't involve luck of some kind?
Would it be any fun if no luck at all was involved?
I don't think so.
Personally I think WA is the highlight of the series and will always remain that way. I've played the other worms games as well, some for a rather long time. But WA really has everything worms needs, and without serious bugs, proper servers and all the options available to create and share everything you want.. there's no other worms game that comes nearly close.
I've played W:R for a long time as well, and will start with Worms:Rev later this year. Cause yeah, new weapons and a new community to engage in is nice. But gameplaywise, they do not offer as much.

fada
24 Aug 2012, 14:38
Yo, well here is a simple fact from my experience.
I have been playing wow, aoe, aom, aoeo, wa, w:r.
From all the game I think WA has the less luck involved. I have never seen a game that "pixel" accurate in fact. If you don't believe me just watch what people can do http://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/4-pump-climb-combo-lt/. For a regular person it is 100% luck but if you watch the replays you'll see that it is not possible to have "this much" luck. In fact it is all timing.
Also, I don't want to say the "I have been played worms more than you so I know better" argument. Still, here you have people who have been played wa for more than 10 years several hours a week non stop. And HHC for example was one of the top player in WA and W:R also... So yes, basically he knows better about competitive side in WA compared to W:R.

X-Ray99
24 Aug 2012, 14:47
Also, please stop bringing in rope races as an argument for no luck being involved. Did you know there is a StarCraft chess mode? We know that chess involves almost no luck at all, but I hope we can also agree that chess has as much to do with the gameplay of StarCraft as rope races with the gameplay of Worms. Namely, not much to actually nothing.And you don't want to be called ignorant...
You certainly shot Thurbo's point about competitiveness all to heck. :p
However, the way you've made your point helps my point about old-time/competitive/hardcore players in comparison to new players.
I already knew about all those leagues/clans/tourneys. But I didn't find them just by booting up the game and entering Anything Goes, which is the method by which most new players will first experience WA online.
I got the jist of the clan/league system from playing in AG, but that was several years ago. Info about the mods and the Worm Olympics was gained solely from reading this forum, which is not widely known outside of hardcore Worms fans.
I've been playing the game on & off since at least 2004, plus the Nintendo 64 version before that. I've earned Full Wormage without hacks.
Back in the day, I would go into AG, and have about a one-third chance of running into a really good non-NNN player. I got to my current skill level (above average at most normal schemes, average at roping) mostly by playing against those players, with longevity also helping.
Since a few years ago, whenever I go into AG, I now only have about a 5% chance of running into a really good non-NNN player. This has caused my skill level to stagnate. I'm only about 5-10 percent better overall than I was before this talent decline happened.
Although some of those high-level players have retired, I still see the majority active, but not in an obvious way. They now organize games almost exclusively outside of the "standard" method through either clans/leagues/IRC/IM or through WormNET via snooper software, which I find to be something of a segregating tool - not only does it allows users to ignore the "standard" method crowd until a situation or person that they're familiar with shows up, new players do not know of snoopers.
This divide is crippling new players. The really good players rarely interact with them, and they have little insight into the competitive system. Plus, the longer it goes on like this, the more turned off new players will be from the competitive system (if and when they discover it) because of a wide skill gap.
I've made my point without flaming and with clarity. Now, if you're willing, could you try and disprove it? :/
You are absolutely right, what you said cannot be disproven. That is an issue that we, as a community - as small as it is - should fix, and although I have been rambling about this for years, noone was listening to me. :(

yakuza
24 Aug 2012, 14:59
Hey Thurbo. You clearly understand nothing about the deep insides of WA and you clearly aren't listening to all the people that have argued with you over the game in this same forum, people, let me add who have played the game for a decade whilst you, on the other hand, are completely lost when it comes to WA mechanics.
There's no need to post in every forum, you have continuously shown total ignorance in regards to WA and have been called out by experienced players one time and another... so dude, stop posting here, you're just digging a deeper hole, you're wrong. People that have been playing tihs game since release are telling you: you're wrong.
And we're tired of telling you, you know what you could do? Get on wormnet and ask for a TUS game, don't even register, play a random person, it doesn't matter... once you get your ass handed to you, come back and tell us all about how you've played worms competitively when the closest thing the worm series have to competition is and has always been WA (bar the time WWP came out which also had league and clan competition)
tl;dr
you're a noob and a fool, stop posting

KRD
24 Aug 2012, 16:00
You certainly shot Thurbo's point about competitiveness all to heck. :p
However, the way you've made your point helps my point about old-time/competitive/hardcore players in comparison to new players.
I already knew about all those leagues/clans/tourneys. But I didn't find them just by booting up the game and entering Anything Goes, which is the method by which most new players will first experience WA online.
I got the jist of the clan/league system from playing in AG, but that was several years ago. Info about the mods and the Worm Olympics was gained solely from reading this forum, which is not widely known outside of hardcore Worms fans.
I've been playing the game on & off since at least 2004, plus the Nintendo 64 version before that. I've earned Full Wormage without hacks.
Back in the day, I would go into AG, and have about a one-third chance of running into a really good non-NNN player. I got to my current skill level (above average at most normal schemes, average at roping) mostly by playing against those players, with longevity also helping.
Since a few years ago, whenever I go into AG, I now only have about a 5% chance of running into a really good non-NNN player. This has caused my skill level to stagnate. I'm only about 5-10 percent better overall than I was before this talent decline happened.
Although some of those high-level players have retired, I still see the majority active, but not in an obvious way. They now organize games almost exclusively outside of the "standard" method through either clans/leagues/IRC/IM or through WormNET via snooper software, which I find to be something of a segregating tool - not only does it allows users to ignore the "standard" method crowd until a situation or person that they're familiar with shows up, new players do not know of snoopers.
This divide is crippling new players. The really good players rarely interact with them, and they have little insight into the competitive system. Plus, the longer it goes on like this, the more turned off new players will be from the competitive system (if and when they discover it) because of a wide skill gap.
I've made my point without flaming and with clarity. Now, if you're willing, could you try and disprove it? :/
I'm sure I remember us addressing all of this in a previous thread, but might as well do it again here and have everything in one place.
You want players new to WormNet to be able to learn about the way things work online but for some reason, joining the #Help channel (where an intelligent bot is happy to answer questions and direct people to all the relevant wiki pages, websites, tools and so on) isn't an option. You want the newbies to have an easy way of learning what TUS or WO means, but have you ever seen one ask publicly in #AG? I find that a detailed answer usually comes within seconds when that happens, link included. Yes, WormNet could be even more in-your-face about community hidey holes, but because of the technical limitations of the frontend as well as the maintainers' limited access to the server, it only does it to the extent that it does. And really, would it be appropriate to do more, bearing in mind that community projects come and go? Should the developers really have to worry about advertising leagues and projects they're not involved with in any way? I think those responsible for running and using them are far better suited for that and in practice, I find that it all works out pretty well compared to most other online games. Until competition between players is once again organised inside the game, by the game, this should more than suffice; the amount of competition going on as we speak is testament to that.
Furthermore, you insist that the community makes itself less accessible today than it did 8 and more years ago, which is simply the opposite of true. Whatever secret societies may have existed on WA in the past are either gone now or so open to the public that anyone is able to find out almost everything about them if not join them on the spot. The NNN guys are always happy to welcome new players to their league and have started advertising their big annual tournament well in advance, not to mention streaming it with commentary; Elite has hardcore enthusiasts who practice on WormNet and will play against anyone, despite the prestige commonly associated with the scheme; b2b has a public forum and a league that's easy to join if you're the least bit interested in BnG, all you have to do is ask; Rope Race players compete in public challenges where the replays are accessible to anyone willing to pick the scheme up, swinging the gate wide open for learning players... and these are just the schemes that are hardest to get into! In the Worm Olympics, a player literally only has to join a channel and he's instantly told to message the moderator if he'd like to take part in whatever tournament is being played, no registration, no frills, a perfect middle step between casual and hardcore. If he doesn't know what the scheme plays like, he just needs to read the description or again switch to the #Help channel and ask the bot about it. Show me another complex online game that goes out of its way this much to make itself approachable, on a technical and social level. What WA achieves in this regard is spectacular for a game so old and it makes thinking about the possibilities version 4.0 brings to the table (with its completely redone frontend and new server) quite exciting.
Basically what I'm saying is, you're imposing a bunch of arbitrary limitations on practically every aspect of (your) interaction with the community, then claiming other people aren't doing enough to make you and others comfortable. For one thing, you seem to acknowledge that the #worms IRC channel is a good place to meet people who know a lot about the game and help run the various community projects, but don't necessarily play all that often anymore, yet your segregation paranoia doesn't allow you to actually stay there and talk to anyone. Do you think IRC channels belonging to other games operate in a vastly different way? They really don't; if anything, they try to stay even more separate by not advertising where they are (we do, on every Worms forum as well as on the wiki and on WormNet itself). Likewise snoopers really aren't what you think they are, they by no means allow anyone to ignore WormNet any more than connecting to it via the game does. They're just an alternative, slightly more convenient way of accessing the channels, a way available to anyone. Moving on, why would you refuse to play against NNN members if you claim you don't get enough of a challenge playing Intermediate against anyone else? What about all the non-NNN people who play in their league, don't you think they were once in exactly the same situation you're in? They took the challenge, got beaten severely at first, and learned from it until they became competitive. This has been going on ever since the game was released and it's the healthiest way to breed new generations of players.
Don't get me wrong, I know what you mean when you complain about community segregation, the gap between really good players and relatively inexperienced ones. Ideally, the transition between the two should be seamless, but I think you're assigning blame to all the wrong things. It's not the core community that has changed so drastically since the early 00s, it's the new players, the ones you're trying to speak for. The game was definitely harder to get into back then, but somehow all the so called oldschoolers that you mention managed, didn't they? In fact the competitive part of the community has been growing steadily in recent years, certainly in size if not in skill as well. The reason for the aforementioned gap is simply the fact that new players don't necessarily even want to keep improving, they don't want to put in the effort, they're happy playing their Shopper variants after a long day at school/work, preferably with people who speak their native language. And that's fine, you know. When I'm online, I still try to at least present to them the notion that other schemes exist and that speaking English goes a long way in bringing you closer to the main community. I can also assure you that every single competitive WA player today wants them to make the jump to playing more seriously, but at the end of the day, they still have to be the ones doing the actual playing and learning. Unless you want that to be done for them too?
Lastly, I just wanted to point out that if you spent less time trying to change the way the entire community has worked for over a decade and more time learning about it and later spreading the knowledge to players you encounter, the end result would very likely be considerably more in line with what you want to achieve. And that goes for all of us, really, because the community mechanisms, the infrastructure is good enough already, we just need everyone to start using it again. And what better way for that to happen than by word of mouth, just like it's always been for WA.

Thurbo
24 Aug 2012, 18:08
That you people are genuinely believing W:A were even close to as competetive as StarCraft, for instance, and that rope racing is actually part of the Worms gameplay, is outright mind-boggling. The majority of you have played W:A for too long, obviously. To quote you on that, for more than a decade. Living in a dream world. It has been clear discussing such things with a close-minded pile like you are, my bad. I keep forgetting that.
So, enjoy your in-crowd community and go on calling everyone who isn't playing in leagues a noob. I don't care, I stopped caring years ago just like the other people I used to meet on WormNET and the modders that left their half-finished WormKit mods undone. The game is getting less active every year and it seems like it's already dying anyway. Just wishing you guys the best of luck in keeping the community alive for the next years.

X-Ray99
24 Aug 2012, 18:29
That you people are genuinely believing W:A were even close to as competetive as StarCraft, for instance, and that rope racing is actually part of the Worms gameplay, is outright mind-boggling. The majority of you have played W:A for too long, obviously. To quote you on that, for more than a decade. Living in a dream world. It has been clear discussing such things with a close-minded pile like you are, my bad. I keep forgetting that.
So, enjoy your in-crowd community and go on calling everyone who isn't playing in leagues a noob. I don't care, I stopped caring years ago just like the other people I used to meet on WormNET and the modders that left their half-finished WormKit mods undone. The game is getting less active every year and it seems like it's already dying anyway. Just wishing you guys the best of luck in keeping the community alive for the next years.
So, just to make a comparision: if a physics professor invests years into his researches and makes an unbelieveable discovery, that first sounds almost insane, is that the same thing? Does that mean that the professor invested so many years into his researches that what he discovered is not even part of physics?
Only because rope racing is not involved in the offline gameplay and is discovered later on in the online gameplay, in most cases, by putting in a little more effort, does not by any means exclude it from the Worms gameplay. That, sir, is absolutely ignorant of you to say, whatever your beliefs are.
And you call us close-minded, however, you are the one so stubborn to make such a statement. I rest my case.
And again, you just piled up a bunch of false fact, based on nothing. The activity rose to a great level and is maintained by TUS - for what they deserve a huge credit by the way - which can be seen here (http://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/seasons-info/). What are your resources for stating activity is decreasing and the game is dying?

Thurbo
24 Aug 2012, 18:51
Only because rope racing is not involved in the offline gameplay and is discovered later on in the online gameplay, in most cases, by putting in a little more effort, does not by any means exclude it from the Worms gameplay. That, sir, is absolutely ignorant of you to say, whatever your beliefs are.
And you call us close-minded, however, you are the one so stubborn to make such a statement. I rest my case.
Rope Racing is missing the most basic gameplay direction Worms takes: Reduce your opponent's health to zero. The only thing it has in common with the Worms gameplay is that it has a rope. Just as well you can take any game, ignore the gameplay based on rules you set with your fellow players and claim it to be part of the gameplay. Instead of the normal SC gameplay, why not take two space marines, have them run from A to B? You have to be pretty damn close-minded to believe Marine Race = StarCraft.
To explain it more simply, rope races are practically a different game. When I want to play Worms, I mean Worms. Not StarCraft, not Battlefield, not Age of Empires, not Rope Racing.
And again, you just piled up a bunch of false fact, based on nothing. The activity rose to a great level and is maintained by TUS - for what they deserve a huge credit by the way - which can be seen here (http://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/seasons-info/). What are your resources for stating activity is decreasing and the game is dying?
Everyone I used to play W:A with, plain stopped playing the game. Even _Kilburn, who left his work on a PX mod unfinished. When I go online and try to find a simple intermediate lobby I might wait forever, it recently took 10 minutes until I got two people in my HB intermediate lobby. It is also worth noting that the regular 3 or 5 players in the server lobby is next to nothing compared to other even half popular games. Even minigames such as Altitude which I have aquired on Steam feature 5 times more players online.

Obn3g0n
24 Aug 2012, 18:56
Time trial roperaces have little to do with the turn-based strategy element of worms, I think is his point.
Let's try to keep this thread from getting locked. As ironic as that might sound coming from me. This thread is a good resource for new W:A players that NAiL and KRD must have spent a good amount of time writing. Kudos gentlemen.

X-Ray99
24 Aug 2012, 19:03
Rope Racing is missing the most basic gameplay direction Worms takes: Reduce your opponent's health to zero. The only thing it has in common with the Worms gameplay is that it has a rope. Just as well you can take any game, ignore the gameplay based on rules you set with your fellow players and claim it to be part of the gameplay. Instead of the normal SC gameplay, why not take two space marines, have them run from A to B? You have to be pretty damn close-minded to believe Marine Race = StarCraft.
To explain it more simply, rope races are practically a different game. When I want to play Worms, I mean Worms. Not StarCraft, not Battlefield, not Age of Empires, not Rope Racing.
Well, I think we simply disagree on that due to our different thinking, so let's leave it there.
Everyone I used to play W:A with, plain stopped playing the game. Even _Kilburn, who left his work on a PX mod unfinished. When I go online and try to find a simple intermediate lobby I might wait forever, it recently took 10 minutes until I got two people in my HB intermediate lobby. It is also worth noting that the regular 3 or 5 players in the server lobby is next to nothing compared to other even half popular games. Even minigames such as Altitude which I have aquired on Steam feature 5 times more players online.
You may be right about that, but you have to understand that activity cannot be measured through your experiences and your experiences only. As years pass, the game changes, that is inevitable, some experience this positively, some not. Some people leave, new faces appear, they learn the game differently than those who started, say, 8 years ago, of course you differ from them, what seems trivial to them might seem humbug to you, that's just natural.
Recently, I think activity more or less moved to leagues. That's one reason. The other reason for your experience is, I believe, HostingBuddy. What I see is a lot more hosts (before, you had to configure the game or router, that requires more advanced computer skills, etc...), however, same amount of people. Obviously, that results in people spreading through more hosts, not to mention for some Shopper might be simply more attractive than Intermediate.
That's just my explanation to the experience you mentioned, I think that makes sense.

StepS
24 Aug 2012, 19:15
before, you had to configure the game or router, that requires more advanced computer skills, etc...
i told Thurbo many times that there's a simpliest solution in world which involves copying 2-3 dll files and works for everyone, but he was always missing that :rolleyes:

Thurbo
24 Aug 2012, 19:22
Actually my experience is that there is no one in the server lobby anymore, that everyone I knew who was playing the game stopped playing it and that it takes ages to get public intermediate matches to fill up, just as I stated. Yes, it also makes sense if most players have just gone to leagues and ignore pub games.
I just came to think, when you go to the Team Fortress forums and claim it to be less competitive than Counter-Strike, people will answer in a mostly kind way, admit that the game has certain flaws and that there is a definite reason for why it's less attractive for official tournaments.
If you state something here, well, see what happens. Specifically a much respected player like NAiL has just tried to convince me that StarCraft requires more luck than Worms based on the fact that the best Worms player wins 90% of the matches while the best SC player *only* made it to 65%. I don't know what to say from that point, really.
Also may I inform you that my sole intention on writing all this is that I noted in a previous thread that NAiL didn't quite understand what Extremist was suggesting (very kindly and briefly, after NAiL called Extremist basically a noob and ignorant) and he immediately jumped to call me ignorant as well. But good to see he has recieved a more kind answer from KRD in this thread anyway.
i told Thurbo many times that there's a simpliest solution in world which involves copying 2-3 dll files and works for everyone, but he was always missing that :rolleyes:
My dear friend, this is not even the topic here. You seem to be missing certain reading comprehension skills. Also, back in the days I have told you many times that my father didn't allow me to change router settings, simple as that.

Obn3g0n
24 Aug 2012, 19:31
StepS is referring to WormNAT2, a wormkit module that allows anyone to host without modifying their router settings.
To be fair, this hostility towards you has been coming for a long time, Thurbo.. most new posters are treated very graciously here unless they're discussing pirated copies of the game. But that's all I'm going to say in this thread.

Thurbo
24 Aug 2012, 19:43
To be fair, this hostility towards you has been coming for a long time, Thurbo.. most new posters are treated very graciously here unless they're discussing pirated copies of the game. But that's all I'm going to say in this thread.
I haven't noticed any new members around here for a very long time. :D
But I did not question this. Anyone pointing out flaws W:A has is immediately mowed down, I have just seen that happen to Extremist.
I also know where it results from. Let's not start a discussion about it just because I mention it, but it pretty much happened with the release of Worms Reloaded? The W:A community has died for me when I realized how close-minded many users where when it comes to changes, and I am referring to the physics and the rope. I started being hostile towards them and so did they vice-versa. Just wanted to clarify that, not intending to start another pointless discussion about physics engines now and then.
StepS is referring to WormNAT2, a wormkit module that allows anyone to host without modifying their router settings.
Yes, but that's still not the topic. I only said it was a HB lobby because it was, doubt it would have been different with a normal lobby.

Extremist2
24 Aug 2012, 19:45
Thurbo, you're full of it.
I've played against Dario & Bytor, the two best Intermediate players ever. They have the accuracy of a CPU, making virtually all of their shots. They can even precisely predict fall damage. Does that sound like a luck-based game?
Heck, if you were to just play the game, you'd see that the physics are pixel-perfect. Every jump from the same place is the same, every grenade shot at the same angle & power is the same.
Luck only comes into play in three ways. Crates, wind, and placement. Turn off crates and turn on manual placement, and you're left with wind, which a really good player can compensate for.
Also, unless you can speak in a nicer tone, I suggest that you not say anything at all...
KRD, I could go the league/clan route, but I don't want to abandon the new players. They aren't all stuck in a rut because they don't want more. The problem is what they see, and most of what they see is Shopper, RR, clanners (which is the definition of an in-crowd), and NNNers, who are so good that some might think that they're using hacks (I tried out the Open Intermediate League, turned out that most of the active players in it were almost as good as the clan members who are much too hardcore for my taste).
The old-time players, when I see them, are very flexible, and friendly when they're playing non-organized games. Without either blatent advertising (the Help channel is a start, but it isn't in-your-face enough - maybe if it were intergrated with the Anything Goes channel?) of this forum and the IRC, or a return to the old days of EVERYONE playing in the same way, WormNET could turn into a sewer of sorts. :/
Well, I think my point's been made enough. Feel free to respond, but I'm not going to waste any more space in this highly informative thread...
:)
EDIT: Set dud mines to off as well.

StepS
24 Aug 2012, 19:49
My dear friend, this is not even the topic here. You seem to be missing certain reading comprehension skills. Also, back in the days I have told you many times that my father didn't allow me to change router settings, simple as that.
the solution i was talking about didn't involve changing anything at all...

Thurbo
24 Aug 2012, 20:01
Extremist, it is not possible to remove the luck from the game. It is in its nature, random events happen, it would take a CPU brain to predict everything pixel-perfectly and that would at the same time remove the fun from the game. And lastly, one player always gets the first go thus gain advantage over player 2. You seem to be suggesting to dumb down the game to classic bow-man: both players get the same amount of shots and get to predict the same situation. No luck, not Worms either. Luck belongs to Worms no doubt and that also means it is not a perfect competitive game.

yakuza
24 Aug 2012, 20:15
The game is getting less active every year and it seems like it's already dying anyway. Just wishing you guys the best of luck in keeping the community alive for the next years.
See, this is where you're wrong. Close to 4k singles league games and 2k clanners are played each month. Wormnet activity stats are public for anyone to see (worms2d.info)
Please stop making up stuff and coming up here presenting it as facts.
You're only embarrassing yourself
edit:
and stop arguing semantics, you have your own definition of luck, fair enough.
Now I dare you, play me in 5 shoppers (the luckiest scheme there is) and after I beat you in the 5 of them, tell me all about the luck in worms armageddon... up for it? it could even help you, those games could be all revealing for you, ignorant sir.

Thurbo
24 Aug 2012, 20:20
I haven't made up my experiences. What do those stats help me? Pub games are dead and no one I used to play with is still actively playing W:A.
I could be up for playing with you, but can't we play normal instead? I cannot express how much I do not want to play shoppa.
Also, not right now. I'm on vacances, didn't bring W:A.

yakuza
24 Aug 2012, 20:24
I haven't made up my experiences. What do those stats help me? Pub games are dead and no one I used to play with is still actively playing W:A.
I could be up for playing with you, but can't we play normal instead? I cannot express how much I do not want to play shoppa.
Also, not right now. I'm on vacances, didn't bring W:A.
your experiences do not match with reality, we are here to tell you

Thurbo
24 Aug 2012, 20:32
your experiences do not match with reality, we are here to tell you
Believe it or don't, experiences are what matters most, over stats or anything else. And the reality is W:A's online servers are almost empty except for a handful of players at any time of the day.

fada
24 Aug 2012, 20:56
I think there is a little missunderstanding here :).
The "oldschool" or the one who plays league game play mostly a little number of scheme. The one we use for league. Let's say:
Hysteria, RR, shopper, wxw, elite, inter, proper, T17.
In these scheme very few luck is involved. That is why someone like Random has a so good winning ratio.
On the other hand if you play scheme with "too many" powerfull weapon like armagueddon (or most of the basic worms scheme) there is just too many weapon for too few worms. Which means, even if you do have skills at the end it all depend of who basically start first which is 100% luck.
Is this what you meant thurbo ?

cHAKKmAN
24 Aug 2012, 21:16
Rope Racing is missing the most basic gameplay direction Worms takes: Reduce your opponent's health to zero. The only thing it has in common with the Worms gameplay is that it has a rope. Just as well you can take any game, ignore the gameplay based on rules you set with your fellow players and claim it to be part of the gameplay. Instead of the normal SC gameplay, why not take two space marines, have them run from A to B? You have to be pretty damn close-minded to believe Marine Race = StarCraft.
Um... i think you completely miss the point. The point is that Rope Race actually gets played, and therefor is part of the gameplay. It could not be played if the gameplay wasn't made for it. :) Apart from that, i don't think this leads anywhere, you call the people who play and love this game for years, who love to play it competetively, narrow-minded, while being narrow-minded yourself. Just tell me one game existing so long which has still such a big regular user base and active league, tourneys and cups and we can talk on. Or wait, we won't, because there is none.

xCrazyx
24 Aug 2012, 22:42
Believe it or don't, experiences are what matters most, over stats or anything else. And the reality is W:A's online servers are almost empty except for a handful of players at any time of the day.
What experiences are you talking about? If you don't find the activity on the servers pleasent enough, then feel free to play WoW, Starcraft or whatever game that pleases you. Fact is that the online servers on WA had an increase in activity in recent years, and are on the same level as back in 2000-2001. For a game expanding over three different decades, it's not that bad really. WA's never been a game for the masses nor it ever will be.

StepS
25 Aug 2012, 06:43
Just tell me one game existing so long which has still such a big regular user base and active league, tourneys and cups and we can talk on. Or wait, we won't, because there is none.
actually there is, AOE2C, but unofficially, I know a league (http://voobly.com) site with the activity much like our tus. There's even a guy (http://www.xomicron.com/software/userpatch/) who makes tons of patches and updates alone, without even having source code, almost every day.
But let's not switch away from WA.

franpa
25 Aug 2012, 07:55
So basically, join league, play league games, don't give a damn about your ranking, just have fun, bam you get to play with skilled people.
Right? Of course if your opponent is trying to play competitively then they would most likely not be in a mood to chat also league games are only 1 vs 1?

yakuza
25 Aug 2012, 09:25
Believe it or don't, experiences are what matters most, over stats or anything else. And the reality is W:A's online servers are almost empty except for a handful of players at any time of the day.
http://stats.worms2d.info/
stop posting

StepS
25 Aug 2012, 10:11
the reality is W:A's online servers are almost empty except for a handful of players at any time of the day.
the reality is this:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48532592/other/totals.PNG
Come back on Sunday at 17:00 GMT and speak about an empty server (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48532592/other/empty_wwp_server.png).

fada
25 Aug 2012, 11:19
So basically, join league, play league games, don't give a damn about your ranking, just have fun, bam you get to play with skilled people.
Right? Of course if your opponent is trying to play competitively then they would most likely not be in a mood to chat also league games are only 1 vs 1?
If you enjoy the game and would like to go into the next step of competitive.
I'd say yes. You'll get to know the community. Start to post in TuS also.
Then join tus communities (or crate yours if you don't find any you belong).
When you get better try to join a clan.
Because there is also clan games who can be 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3.

X-Ray99
25 Aug 2012, 12:52
So basically, join league, play league games, don't give a damn about your ranking, just have fun, bam you get to play with skilled people.
Right? Of course if your opponent is trying to play competitively then they would most likely not be in a mood to chat also league games are only 1 vs 1?
I'm guessing you assume that league games are different, perhaps less fun then just casual games. Yes, there are some jerks, there are people who focus on the game and are after points and trophies, but generally, by the time you get to the level of getting into competitive gameplay, you get to know the people you like hanging out with, from then it's your decision to just play with those people as a friendly bunch or get into leagues.
But le me tell you, it's not less fun, at all. :)

coste
25 Aug 2012, 14:30
Im pretty sure Franpa's post was relating to Thurbo's crippleness @ Ray and fada xd

'HHC
25 Aug 2012, 19:03
I also know where it results from. Let's not start a discussion about it just because I mention it, but it pretty much happened with the release of Worms Reloaded? The W:A community has died for me when I realized how close-minded many users where when it comes to changes, and I am referring to the physics and the rope. I started being hostile towards them and so did they vice-versa. Just wanted to clarify that, not intending to start another pointless discussion about physics engines now and then.
I take it you were glad the rope got jinxed because it meant the game would go back to normal?
Funny thing is that roping was invented on Worms2, rope racing on W:A (I think..) and the first game where it is in from the start, W:R, the rope physics are skewed and racing feels like a struggle without end.
You have to accept that..
I was never a fan of racing myself, as I suck balls in it. But the concept of the scheme is solid and it can be quite fun.
Do you think it still doesn't belong to the worms universe even if it got included in an official game (W:R)?
You're just dissing the WA community because they play games you don't like (and you kinda want to see them banned because of that reason?).
The best thing about WA is that you can alter so many things about the map, the scheme and the weapon options. Much more than newer generation worms. IMO this is more true to the original games (check the menu of worms2 and all the options you had there!!). It's a game meant to be f'ed with.
We now have all kind of races, from roperacing to supersheepracing, to boom racings, bungee racing, jetpack racing, chute racing, battleracing... etcetera. We have worm darts, there's board game-kind of games, forts, shoppers, worms golf...
You really want to abolish all these great mini-games just so that everybody plays the same dämn basic worms game you want to play all the time?
That's pretty egocentric don't you think.
Extremist, it is not possible to remove the luck from the game. It is in its nature, random events happen, it would take a CPU brain to predict everything pixel-perfectly and that would at the same time remove the fun from the game.
There are players near that level. And a whole bunch of players capable enough of not blowing themselves up at random..
And lastly, one player always gets the first go thus gain advantage over player 2.
Perhaps in intermediate the first player has a certain advantage. In other games it really doesn't matter that much. The best player almost always wins, no matter who starts.
Luck belongs to Worms no doubt and that also means it is not a perfect competitive game.
and why not?
Name me a 'competitive' game in which no luck at all is involved?
Good games are ones that hold the middle between luck and skill.
Without luck there's no element of surprise.. you kinda know who's gonna win from the start, so there isn't any real point in competing.
Without skill involved there's no part being played by the player. He might as well be replaced by a monkey or a donkey, the result would be similar.
From wikipedia:
While some purists consider luck not to be a desirable component of a game, others counter that elements of luck can make for far more diverse and multi-faceted strategies, as concepts such as expected value and risk management must be considered.
I fancy the latter style of play more. Games, and worms schemes as well, should be dynamic, versatile, 'close' and fun. If you strip games of all the random factors (luck) involved you end up with a dull, predictable game, that neither offers good competition nor personal gratification.

NAiL
25 Aug 2012, 22:24
Please stop saying people are saying things they haven't said.
Gosh NAiL, that was some pretty ignorant fail at trying to prove me that W:A is less based on luck than StarCraft right from the start.
I didn't say that, what I said was:
Funny you should mention SC2 (which contains the same amount of luck, if not more luck than WA)
go to the SC2 forums and tell a StarCraft player that game is more based on luck than Worms, I dare you. (Though you are not granted access to those forums unless you bought the game, just on a sidenote.)
You've just proved that you didn't even read my post properly. I said that I also play Starcraft 2, Ive been playing for about a year. Im platinum but I still consider myself a noob. What league are you on SC2?
On the topic of SC2, the game isn't even balanced yet. It took many years of updates for Brood War to become balanced and it will be the same for SC2, especially with the new expansions. There's no denying WA is balanced for both players. This isn't Worms Reloaded we're talking about, the physics in WA are consistent and predictable.
Worms has one player start out gaining a clear advantage over the other player and a physics engine which leads to outcomes which are with a too high extent unpredictable.
So here you say that the outcome of WA games are unpredictable due to the physics, and the player who starts first has too big an advantage for games to be fair, yet then you say:
having a player winning 90% of the matches in your community is exactly what should not be the case, because this means there is a lack of players to be even close to the skills of that one player
This goes against your first statement about WA being too luck reliant to be considered a competitive game, you contradict yourself. If the game was too luck reliant then people wouldn't be able to get recurring win ratios in the 90%s would they? The fact that people DO have win ratios in the 90%s, 80%s, 70%s, PROVES that luck is not the deciding factor to the outcome of the overwhelming majority of WA games (that are played and recorded on leagues), skill and strategy is.
A long term study of games recorded over serval years on NNN found that there was no correlation between a player starting first and winning the game. You should know that Intermediate is played at least best of 3, if not 5, 7 , or 9 rounds to give each player a turn to go first. In a scheme like elite you manually place your worms on the map, so you plan in anticipation of starting second. This isnt WR in which ranked matches include randomly starting on a non mirrored fort map without any worm selects, this game is balanced. Players wouldn't have win ratios in the 90, 80, and 70%s in Intermediate if the winner of each game was the player who started first. People wouldn't play the scheme if that was the case, any NNN player would tell you the same.
The other thing is, whilst the very, very top wormers are exceptionally consistent, it's not like they are unbeatable by a significant number of players. It's not like the same person wins the season over and over again, obviously some people will win more than others but there are many winners. Remember there are playoffs at the end of each season to determine the winner, its not the your win ratio that wins the season.
You should remember that overall win ratios are a cumulative record of statistics recorded from games that have been compiled over years, they are consistent and reliable evidence that luck is not the deciding factor. Do you really think people would keep playing if it was luck that decided whether you win or lose, seriously?
please stop bringing in rope races as an argument for no luck being involved.
Of course rope races don't mean that there are no schemes without luck factors, TTRR is just an example of a SCHEME in which the outcome is almost entirely dependant on how well you play.
I have spent years playing W:A and while I do enjoy it more playing it with friends, that does in no way mean I were ignorant of the competive side.
With all respect, you are hugely ignorant of the competitive side, that's why I made this thread. Everyone in this thread has told you that you know hardly anything about the community and the deeper workings of the game, do you seriously think that it's everyone else who are deluded?
That you people are genuinely believing that rope racing is actually part of the Worms gameplay, is outright mind-boggling.
You are joking right? Of course rope racing is a part of Worms gameplay, Team17 even included a rope racing mode in WR, showing their recognition of the SCHEME. You need to see the difference between worms as an entire game, and schemes within the game. Sure, rope racing has nothing to do with the SCHEME of intermediate, or the SCHEME of elite, or the SCHEME of BnG, but that doesn't make it any less a part of the game than anything else.
WA does not consist of one specific scheme, it has always constituted of a number of different schemes. The thing you don't understand about the league is that it is, like Worms in general, comprised of a selection of schemes. Some are roping schemes (rope race, roper, shopper, wxw), and some are more traditional schemes (Team17, Elite, BnG,). This is how the game is played competitively on the main league.
You seem to think of WA in it's entirety, as being the same as the SCHEME of Intermediate. Yes, the SCHEME of Intermediate is competitive worming in a more "traditional" sense, but the game has evolved beyond that online. Many different schemes are played as part of the all round (TUS) league. In order to succeed on the all round league, you must be skilled in both roping and more traditional schemes, a good "all rounder".
You sound like you would rather play only traditional forms of Worms competitively online and there are many who think like you. That is why they created their own league, NNN, which anyone who likes Intermediate can join.
Ill ignore the fact you couldn't answer one single question I asked you about gameplay mechanics and strategy, and ill ignore all your other subjective, non applicable reasoning as to why you say the physics are too unpredictable to allow the game to be played competitively. Look how many people have told you are talking nonsense and making things up, even Extremeist who you were backing up has told you "you're full of it". They are not all against you for no reason, you're making yourself look foolish. Know when to accept you simply don't know as much about the community as you claim. You know little about the community and how the game is played competitively online as you prove more and more with each post, some humility would go a long way.

yakuza
26 Aug 2012, 14:01
Thurbo is your typical Team17 mega fan. He posts in every board he can. And he runs around lecturing people on this and that to get a reputation in hopes one day he will be made community manager.
But then what happens, he makes a post in the wrong board and suddenly he realizes he knows crap about WA and that he should stop arguing with people that have been in this game since day 1 and actually know what they're talking about.
Thurbo, it's ok, you'll never be right, never, you never played a competitive league match in your life, you might think you're good at worms, this is Worms ****ing Armageddon, it's a different animal, you are clueless and lost, please find the way out.
This isn't me saying people shouldn't post if they aren't experienced worms players, but they certainly shouldn't act like know it alls when quite clearly, and I'm being frank, you are completely clueless on this topic of discussion, you didn't even bother doing research, you are not the person to be discussing this topic, what you should be doing, is listening and try to get a wider perspective on a community so alien to you, but you're not doing either.
You've already proven your knowledge on this matter:
You claimed competition in WA was luck based (you were proven wrong by win ratios)
You claimed WormNet was inactive (you were proven wrong with a link to its stats)
You claimed rope racing wasn't part of worms (you were proven wrong, by team17)
Look, I know you've given worms lots of time and that you think of yourself as a very clever worms person, but you're still a noob when it comes to WA, and the quicker you come to peace with this fact the better, because it will mean you will eventually start listening to those that actually know and maybe you swill stop from blessing us with all this WA ignorance.
edit: nail, his problem with schemes is that he understands the worm series differently. He thinks it's something like say... team fortress, in which you always have the same set of rules. He can't get his head around the fact schemes are the epicenter of everything when it comes to gameplay. You can't blame him. For close to a decade now all team17's new worm games have been going in that direction. The guy probably doesn't even know old WormNet had channels with different schemes for ranked gameplay (by team17) and that there were various schemes such as BnG, Shopper, Rope League etc... This was in WA 1999-2000, in its official servers.
Seriously though, talking with this guy is pointless, he is so ignorant to so many things yet still acts as if he was a worms guru.
edit 2: did he really say WA physics were unpredictable? Really? Really?
http://wormtube.worms2d.info/92/showcase_3
Really?

Pac-Man
26 Aug 2012, 16:10
Ralley⁬⁬⁬⁬⁬⁬⁬⁬

Louie
28 Nov 2012, 18:00
Hey, I play W:A competitively (Intermediate) and I find this post NAiL very nice, it helps ppl getting started and motivated to start playing W:A more "hardcore"
I just wanted to add some very good tips regarding HostingBuddy, cause I know some ppl has problems with hosting themselves and hosting with HostingBuddy may not give same intermediate-schemes that is played in leagues, tournaments or competitively due to some small stuff like weapon drops, no instant jet pack, not beeing able to play best of 3 etc, so here are a few HostingBuddy-commands I wanted to share to make all of this possible;
!host intermediate (to host your intermediate game)
!color 1 yellow (your and opponents team colors, eg !color 2 blue)
!wsdb 203 (scheme 203, no weapon or health drops)
!delay jet 0 (beeing able to use jet pack directly)
!map (switch map, make sure to pick a good island or cave map)
!again (after match, beeing able to play again without rehosting)
then theres some other commands you might already know that could come in handy aswell sometimes, to close the game so no other players can join, kick a player (if necessary) and reopen a game if closed so more players can join again;
!kick playername
!close
!reopen
GL HF :cool:

Extremist2
2 Dec 2012, 09:38
The recent (if somewhat small) influx of brand-new players via Steam should help improve the scene. :)
In other news, I played against two players the other day of the type that I most want to see more of - English speaking, chatty, good non-NNN Intermediate players (like me).
Many wishes for a good online community far into the future!

bonz
2 Dec 2012, 19:15
I really, really hope that T17 make WA available for everyone to buy during the Steam holiday sale.

yakuza
3 Dec 2012, 13:21
Many wishes for a good online community far into the future!
this game has had a good online community for more than a decade and it's still strong
I don't get what you're saying

*OrangE
6 Dec 2012, 04:52
I have been playing this game since august 2008. So it's little more than 4 years so far. I've never played a game for so long with the exception of "raimbow six: Rogue Spear" (still alive game since 1999 too).
The first months i was really amazed by some players capable of incredible things. You get so amazed that you start thinking they cheat or they know some secrets you don't. It took me years to master some skills, especially roping techniques, and i'm still not owning them perfectly.
Well, for online games it sounds quite normal to be amazed by pros at first, but WA is different. You got not only "common" skills involved, but knowledge too. Game mechanics are so perfect (pixel size) that you could virtually dig them for years and years. Most of the pros i've played with are still learning things after 10 years of non-stop playing.
This is why i like this game so much, there are so many things involved: speed of execution, knowledge of the mechanics, creativity, thinking forward your enemy, preventing risks of random factors, etc... at a certain level you have even to estimate how much you can trust yourself because of your mental state (more or less sleepy, hyperactive, stressed, etc..) and play considering this too (especially in rope schemes). Luck involved is reduced to knowing what's random and preventing it. It's called strategy, this should be so obvious i really can't believe you spent so much words trying to explain it at one single person that doesn't want to understand.
And even if you mastered all the variabilities of the game at an awesome level (like some 90% win ratio players did) one day you will always meet a guy that will dare you to defeat him at his best scheme. And he will defeat you.
So yeah, no way, this game can be REALLY competitive... and our community is well managed and growing well. A lot of us is having really good times playing league games. So if you're reading this and you're interested in this game just make the first step and send me a message on tus, or open a thread. www.tus-wa.com I or some other guy will show you the path. Or just try catching us on Anything Goes (the main channel where games happens). There are usually few guys noob-friendly always online.

Twyrfher
19 Dec 2012, 00:19
Wow... nice thread. Thurbo :/ you are so, so wrong, sorry.

Extremist2
20 Dec 2012, 01:10
this game has had a good online community for more than a decade and it's still strong
I don't get what you're saying
I'm hoping that it stays strong.

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