Something has to be done about the menus [Archive] - Team17 Forum

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Squirminator2k
6 May 2012, 23:46
Hello!
There's been an annoying creep in the frontend menus in this series since Worms 3D - large on-screen text, menus that previously fit on a single screen being spread out over 3 or 4 screens, and a stark oversimplification. I understand the desire to keep things accessible to cater to the console market, but I can't help but feel it's negatively impacted the aesthetic of the game.
Look at the team creation/customization menus from Worms / Worms 2: Armageddon / Worms Reloaded. Three screens that offer more or less the same number of options as those offered in Worms Armageddon and World Party. Three screens that, with minimal tweaking, could easily fit on one screen if you'd only make things a little smaller and use more of the vertical space available to you.
With higher resolutions, HD televisions and widescreen displays, developers have never had more on-screen real estate... so why is it being squandered?

MtlAngelus
6 May 2012, 23:50
I fully endorse this thread.

_Kilburn
7 May 2012, 08:08
Can't agree more with that. It was a real pain to create a scheme in Worms Reloaded because you could only see the ammo/delay of only one weapon at a time. That's so horribly wrong when even Worms 3D had a WA-like scheme editor, with all the weapons visible on screen. I know that the games we recently got were made to be suitable for consoles, but geez, give PC users some love too.
I'd really love to see a better frontend design in Worms Revolution. Worms Armageddon, Worms World Party, and to a certain extent, Worms 3D could convey a lot of information via pictures, so text was barely required. I'm especially thinking about the main menu with zero text, and the awesome scheme editor which gave you information about all the weapons at once.
Since you seem to have a new team of motivated artists, it would be really awesome to have something like that back.

bonz
7 May 2012, 08:57
I approve of this thread and its declarative.
The Plastation 1 version of Worms Aramgeddon had the same frontend design and layout, and it was perfectly fine to navigate and utilize it with the controller.
No need at all for these annoying selection boxes where you have to click your way through all elements with an arrow.
This is furthermore less of an issue, since the introduction of the Kinect and Move controllers for the XBox and PS3 respectively, as well as the WiiMote. Those basically work like a mouse pointing device.

vackillers
7 May 2012, 14:57
Agreed, something needs to be changed about the menu's, feels too big and more of a console UI port myself, nothing something people want on a PC anyway i dont think

raffie
7 May 2012, 15:20
The fat font and huge size of it used in Worms games since Worms 3 was a complete horror. It was quite obviously chosen to be readable from a far distance (consoles) but it's just terrible on a computer screen.

Phantom
7 May 2012, 15:27
I don't have any problems with the menus now...

hoppi
7 May 2012, 15:51
Definitely agree with OP.

jsgnext
7 May 2012, 18:12
I agree, but I have to admit that the new "multi-screen" menus with Big fonts are visually more attractive than the "single-screen" old ones...
Sorry about bad english, im kinda sleepy....

Squirminator2k
7 May 2012, 18:13
See, I agree there, but I'd happily sacrifice aesthetic for functionality. There's got to be a way to balance both.

Thurbo
7 May 2012, 19:22
The Worms 3D menus were essentially of a similar size as the ones from Worms Armageddon and World Party, can't really see what your problem was with that.
Except the weapons and tools could have been fit into one screen instead of three but that's the only difference I can remember.

Dead_pixel
7 May 2012, 20:29
we already discussed about the global UI feedbacks on the reloaded beta, so it's an important point to get it simple, clear and non intrusive,
so for now i prefer waiting to see what the team have already done with revolution :)

franpa
8 May 2012, 09:31
Choose a simple font like Aerial (NOT time new roman!) or something instead of the messy font currently used in reloaded. (Especially for the chat font)

_Kilburn
8 May 2012, 11:11
Choose a simple font like Aerial (NOT time new roman!) or something instead of the messy font currently used in reloaded. (Especially for the chat font)
Use Comic Sans MS for maximum professionalism. :cool:
On a more serious note, Verdana does the job quite nicely for stuff like chat boxes. Also you should really make the chat show up in the corner whenever someone writes something. A lot of games do that already and it's not intrusive at all, I find it better than making a chat icon flash every time someone chats. Plus a lot of people don't know how to open the chat, so it's just impossible to communicate with them in any way since they can't see what you're writing.

Deluvas
8 May 2012, 11:44
If the discussion is about the UI, I would also like to purpose a feature like the ping from Portal 2, where you can easily hint your team-mate (if you're playing in a team, of course).
Also, please separate voice chat into teams, or atleast make a button for team-voice and global-voice. The voice system in Reloaded is horrible when it comes to teamplay...

Thurbo
8 May 2012, 16:42
Use Comic Sans MS for maximum professionalism. :cool:
On a more serious note, Verdana does the job quite nicely for stuff like chat boxes. Also you should really make the chat show up in the corner whenever someone writes something. A lot of games do that already and it's not intrusive at all, I find it better than making a chat icon flash every time someone chats. Plus a lot of people don't know how to open the chat, so it's just impossible to communicate with them in any way since they can't see what you're writing.
Seeing the chat without having to press any button is definitely necessary in fast action games like shooters, but since Worms is a turn-based game you get enough time to check and write during other players' turns. The red phone does the job well enough. Not sure if a whole sentence appearing in some corner is actually more distracting than the phone thing but somehow the player has to be notified someone sent a message, after all.
The game comes with an in-game manual and customizable key settings and the chat can also be accessed through clicking on "Chat" when pressing Escape in-game. People not responding to you are either a) idiots b) not in the mood to chat c) not familiar with the language you are using. You can't blame the program for everything :p

jsgnext
8 May 2012, 22:33
People not responding to you are either a) idiots b) not in the mood to chat c) not familiar with the language you are using
Just replace idiots with "people who rush multiplayer right after they get into the game without any previous experience with worms", its less offensive :P

insurg3nt3
9 May 2012, 00:18
Just replace idiots with "people who rush multiplayer right after they get into the game without any previous experience with worms", its less offensive :P
XD, this is so true and not only in worms, I'm sure all of you always found people who ask in lobbys how to do the things in games and they don't even enter to configurations or see the classic "how to play tutorial", so I think another problem to consider is that people don't like to read :/ (fortunately I like)

_Kilburn
9 May 2012, 08:32
Seeing the chat without having to press any button is definitely necessary in fast action games like shooters, but since Worms is a turn-based game you get enough time to check and write during other players' turns. The red phone does the job well enough. Not sure if a whole sentence appearing in some corner is actually more distracting than the phone thing but somehow the player has to be notified someone sent a message, after all.
The game comes with an in-game manual and customizable key settings and the chat can also be accessed through clicking on "Chat" when pressing Escape in-game. People not responding to you are either a) idiots b) not in the mood to chat c) not familiar with the language you are using. You can't blame the program for everything :p
No I disagree, being able to see the chat at any time would be extremely valuable for, say, 2 vs 2 games, where you can tell your teammate what he should do, or if he's doing anything wrong. Or just for the satisfaction from watching your enemy shout NOOOOO in the chat as you're about to prod his last worm into the water.

Thurbo
9 May 2012, 13:05
No I disagree, being able to see the chat at any time would be extremely valuable for, say, 2 vs 2 games, where you can tell your teammate what he should do, or if he's doing anything wrong. Or just for the satisfaction from watching your enemy shout NOOOOO in the chat as you're about to prod his last worm into the water.
Ok, I didn't consider it for matches with alliances, that's a good point. I still think it could be a little distracting, when playing ranked games for example.

Squirminator2k
9 May 2012, 16:20
If you want an always-open chat window, I'd strongly advocate for a vertical chat window on the left or right-hand side of the screen rather than the horizontal one at the top that we have now.
I'd also strongly advocate for better voice support so that we don't have to use the bloody chat window and it can be turned off.

BethanyTeam17
9 May 2012, 17:19
.... with minimal tweaking, could easily fit on one screen if you'd only make things a little smaller and use more of the vertical space available to you.
With higher resolutions, HD televisions and widescreen displays, developers have never had more on-screen real estate... so why is it being squandered?
The menus are looking good in Revolution :)
With regards to this point though, despite advancing technology we can't make things too small as there's platform guidelines we must adhere to to ensure that things can be displayed correctly on lower resolution/smaller TVs etc.

Squirminator2k
9 May 2012, 17:24
Completely understandable, though I'd argue those standards don't technically impact the PC version, do they? :)

MtlAngelus
9 May 2012, 17:26
You could give users a hidden option via a text file somewhere to enable "proper pc menus".
If you wanted that is.

Thurbo
9 May 2012, 17:51
Like with the first built of Worms Reloaded, you could choose the size of all HUD elements including timer, wind indicator, weapon panel and health bars through pressing a key. That was really helpful but later removed for no reason. Just give PC players such options, it's appreciated :)

Deluvas
9 May 2012, 19:44
The menus are looking good in Revolution :)
With regards to this point though, despite advancing technology we can't make things too small as there's platform guidelines we must adhere to to ensure that things can be displayed correctly on lower resolution/smaller TVs etc.
Currently (and I'm referring to the PC versions of Reloaded and Ultimate Mayhem, because these are the recent ones I've played and noticed the flaw), the ratio between the UI visuals/design and its utility tends to infinity. That means utility is very low on the scale, which is bad...
E.g. Reloaded (PC): Customizing a gamemode's weapons scheme is a tedious process because of the UI.
Reloaded (PC): While in-game/match, a Steam invitation sent from a friend will pop-up right in the middle of your game, instantly blocking screen and focus. But that's not all, he can even spam you with more invitations (constantly popping up), thus ruining your gameplay experience.
Reloaded (PC) and/or Ultimate Mayhem (PC): The chat box in Reloaded is horrible. Not to mention it takes a big part of the screen to render, but it also makes co-operating with your team-mate, a mess.
The chat box in Ultimate Mayhem was better (transparent), but it was still a tad annoying, for some reasons I can't explain/remember right now.
...there's plenty more I cannot remember to list, but I hope you get the idea.

Squirminator2k
9 May 2012, 19:49
Considering the PC version is the only one that needs a text chat window, why not make is smaller and less intrusive? Like the W2/WA/WWP chat window, only perhaps vertical to the side of the screen rather than horizontal to the top of it.

LowTier
9 May 2012, 23:53
I'd also strongly advocate for better voice support so that we don't have to use the bloody chat window and it can be turned off.
I fully endorse this comment.
Voice support really is the one, worms 2 on xbl works really well and is so much fun if you can get all of your party into the game :)

Metal Alex
10 May 2012, 19:54
You could give users a hidden option via a text file somewhere to enable "proper pc menus".
If you wanted that is.
You are just describing menu skins.

Squirminator2k
10 May 2012, 19:58
You are just describing menu skins.
Nope, he's describing a command line in a text file to enable an otherwise hidden menu configuration.

Metal Alex
10 May 2012, 20:15
Nope, he's describing a command line in a text file to enable an otherwise hidden menu configuration.
that only takes to add it in the menu itself to become custom skins.
Hey, I'm not against any option! I just want the Armageddon style too. Man I miss that game... The day I find the CD again...

ApeSpecter
11 May 2012, 15:20
PC games deserve complicated menus!

jsgnext
11 May 2012, 15:28
How about no menus at all for the PC version?....everything is configured trough a external txt ("menu options.txt") (?)
The point is not getting a complicated menu, but an "idiot proof" one either...

Extremist2
11 May 2012, 22:35
Can't we agree on anything? :-/

Squirminator2k
11 May 2012, 22:37
Can't we agree on anything? :-/
Well, maybe you can't...
...
...
...
:P

franpa
12 May 2012, 05:45
How about no menus at all for the PC version?....everything is configured trough a external txt ("menu options.txt") (?)
The point is not getting a complicated menu, but an "idiot proof" one either...
Just make it use a CLI for setting options.

Squirminator2k
12 May 2012, 05:47
Release the menus as a separate iPhone app, costing $4.99. Use local wifi to allow the menu to interface with the game, allowing the user to input their selections.

Kalan
14 May 2012, 20:50
I agree with this. The menus, especially in match configuring/team creating/whatever should be more PC friendly. For example, I don't like navigating all the hats just to get to one while I could open a hat menu and select it from there, on a more convenient interface. A preview icon of the hat on that same menu would also be neat.
The windows also look extremely "fat" in my opinion. It occupies alot of space, but that's just me.

Squirminator2k
14 May 2012, 21:36
A dropdown menu on Hats, Speechbanks et al. would be incredibly useful.

Forceh
14 May 2012, 21:44
A dropdown menu on Hats, Speechbanks et al. would be incredibly useful.
This. These were in Armageddon and that was 12 years ago. The PC menus these days are far too console orientated.

franpa
15 May 2012, 04:06
A dropdown menu on Hats, Speechbanks et al. would be incredibly useful.
Not a text drop-down menu either, more something along the lines of the weapon panel during gameplay.

jazz90
15 May 2012, 07:37
it is a past, console orientation and simplicity is the order of the day!!

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